A short rant

[finsrclowns]

It's about the OL. Two years ago when the line gave up 54 sacks and had a YPC rushing below the NFL average the excuse was the OL coach was a clown and Bledsoe's a statue. I bought some of that. This past season they again give up 50+ sacks and it's Pat Ruel's fault and Bledsoe holds the ball, Pucillo sucks, blah , blah, blah. Ummm...maybe...

Now here's my question. The Bills have hired McNally, who has top credentials, experience, track record, however you want to say it. Two years ago McNally got a no name unit in NY to give up only 24 sacks with Kerry Collins, who I think loses a footrace with Bledsoe. Pucillo is not likely to see the field. Ruben, who was fading fast in PP, is gone. Villarrial is here and is well regarded. Am I right in saying that this line is fresh out of excuses and it's time to put up or admit these guys are just way overrated? Here's the way I see it:

Jonas Jennings: above average LT but has to stay on the field

Trey Teague: below average center who needs to learn how to shotgun snap consistently and pick up a blitz. If you disagree he's below average, try coming up with 15 centers he's better than- bet you can't.

Chris Villarrial: all I know is what I hear and the word is he's a solid but unspectacular player. Fine by me. That's 30 less hits or so Drew has to absorb compared to last year which is a good start.

Mike Williams: I'm tired of hearing about his potential. 3rd year- time to start playing like a 4th pick in the draft. Can you teach quick feet? I dunno, but 20 less pounds might help.

LG: Sullivan/Tucker/Pucillo. I assume it's Sullivan. Maybe McNally can teach him to pass block. Count me as skeptical.

I'm not trying to be negative, but I'll admit my stomach went into a knot when Justin Smiley was still on the board at 43 and we didn't have our pick. People talk about June 1st but I think that's idle fantasy- few teams have major cap problems and even fewer cut starting caliber OL men. Larry Allen may be near the end of the string but I'd take him for a 4th and a pay cut, if he was willing, in a second.

[R. Rich]

You are not the only person who is concerned with the offensive line. I've been touting the need to upgrade the line for quite some time now. So far, it appears that the Bills feel that the addition of McNally as line coach and Villarrial at RG have made this unit much better. Like you, I'm concerned about Teague at center. Hopefully, McNally will be able to coach him into a capable player there. As for taking Smiley at 43, I would hope not. While he is a highly rated guard prospect, he's a bit smallish. He's more of an athletic guard; something I feel the Bills need to get away from by adding some big guys who can maul people as opposed to being mauled. You mentioned going after Larry Allen. While I wouldn't want Allen at this point in his career (too slow, out of shape, and is now more erratic and inconsistent as a blocker), I would like to see a bigger, more powerful guard in his mold to replace Ruben. Maybe the Bills will look to add someone after the June 1st cap cuts or even after the June 15th deadline to withdraw offers, but in case they don't, I'll be praying that McNally is the cure-all everyone feels he will be.

[casdhf]

We cut someone like Larry Allen already. Who needs nother Ruben?

[SABURZFAN]

i could have cared less about smiley.grove was there and we give up too much for a QB who couldn't lead his team to a .500 record.

[ryjam282]

I say give the guys we have a shot. Who knows how they can play with a good coach. I am willing to give the LG's we have a shot. But, I do agree, Mike Williams needs to start playing like the high pick he was and start dominating people. At his 6'7" frame he should be absolutely destroying people...DESTROYING. I will give them all just one more shot....But this is it, put up or shut up.

[justasportsfan]

Yo finsrclowns, sent you some zonebucks for an avatar. No clowns though, I'm scared of them.

[TigerJ]

We all know the line has been sub par for years. Whether the steps TD took this offseason, which doesn't include any major personnel upgrade, are enough, is going to be a legitimate question until the season starts. Then TD is either going to look like a genius or an idiot for addressing things the way he did. If it's the latter, I'll join y'all in calling TD a butthead, but I buy into the philosophy expressed by an old Irish prayer, "God, grant me the strength to change the things I can, the serenity to accept the things I can't, and the wisdom to know the difference."

[Bulldog]

Originally posted by SABURZFAN
i could have cared less about smiley.grove was there and we give up too much for a QB who couldn't lead his team to a .500 record.

I hear ya, espically with all the talent he had around him at freakin Tulane. Way to keep the faith! If JP turns into a franchise QB, I'm sure you will be the first one to applaud TD for his bold move.

[Alluro]

the problem with the line is on Bledsoe. He makes it look far worse than it is. If he could think quick to plant and throw at the end of his drop, our O-Line would look 100% better.

Remember back during the RJ/Flutie days, the line would always look great when doug played because he was A) more mobile than rob and B) made quicker decisions with the ball than Rob

[Patrick76777]

Originally posted by finsrclowns

Trey Teague: below average center who needs to learn how to shotgun snap consistently and pick up a blitz. If you disagree he's below average, try coming up with 15 centers he's better than- bet you can't.




If anybody attempts this, they should be shot dead!


Ranking NFL Centers! I'd rather eat toenails!

[DraftBoy]

Originally posted by SABURZFAN
i could have cared less about smiley.grove was there and we give up too much for a QB who couldn't lead his team to a .500 record.


Thats unfair shot Saburz, Montana couldnt of led that team to a .500 record. Losman took one hell of a beating last season and kept on playing. Hes prolly one of the if not the toughest QB in the class. Him and Rivers would be the top 2.

[buffmaniac]

Originally posted by Alluro
the problem with the line is on Bledsoe. He makes it look far worse than it is. If he could think quick to plant and throw at the end of his drop, our O-Line would look 100% better.

Remember back during the RJ/Flutie days, the line would always look great when doug played because he was A) more mobile than rob and B) made quicker decisions with the ball than Rob

Bledsoe lack of mobility doesn't help but its not all his fault. The OL last year continually just got shoved right back into his face. Plus with the brilliant schemes of KG very rarely could Bledsoe just drop back, plant, and throw. With the WR option routes in our offense, Bledsoe often had to sit and wait to see exactly where his WRs were going to go.

[Voltron]

I recommend to the people that have not watched game film from last year to watch it again with a stop watch and see how much time Drew has in that pocket before it collapses. It is not because our line is the worst in the league (Although I do agree about Teague) it is because Drew can't make quick enough decisions. A QB should have 5 to 7 seconds to throw the ball. If he can’t get rid of it fast enough that is on the QB not his O-line.

[CWOUSARET]

a well thought-out and well written work - and you are right - there are reasons to be concerned. i do hope that mcnally can bring these guys together - it is very possible - but i have to see it first before i get warm and fuzzies about it. and the o-line play is the most single important issue this year - why? - because EVERYTHING BEGINS AND ENDS WITH THE OFFENSIVE LINE!!!!! football 101 - film at 11.

[colin]

I disagree with the Mike Williams comment. He is not a top passblocker, yet, but he destroys people on the run and was playing beside a HS backup last year.

Look at Travis Henry before and after Mike Williams. Before he was below average, now he is considered a super star, and he does not break off long runs much. That means he is constantly given a decent chance to move the ball, wich is because Mike Williams is a bull. He does need some new pass blocking skills yes, but who pushes people around better? not many

[Throne Logic]

Originally posted by ryjam282
I say give the guys we have a shot. Who knows how they can play with a good coach. I am willing to give the LG's we have a shot. But, I do agree, Mike Williams needs to start playing like the high pick he was and start dominating people. At his 6'7" frame he should be absolutely destroying people...DESTROYING. I will give them all just one more shot....But this is it, put up or shut up.

For better or for worse this is pretty much what's going to happen. There's no one out there now, or who might be out there after June 1, that's going to "upgrade" our current line.

It's up to the coaches now.

And yes, I agree completely about Mike Williams. With real coaching and two years under his belt, he absolutely has to start dominating this year.

[BigZ]

Originally posted by Throne Logic


For better or for worse this is pretty much what's going to happen. There's no one out there now, or who might be out there after June 1, that's going to "upgrade" our current line.

It's up to the coaches now.

And yes, I agree completely about Mike Williams. With real coaching and two years under his belt, he absolutely has to start dominating this year.

Well put. But I also agree that Bledsoe AND THE COMPLEXITY OF THE OFFENSIVE SYSTEM made the line look worse than it was.

Knowing where the receivers will be (and that will be easier when they each don't have 6 read options on any given route) a godsend for any QB that lines up behind our line.

Coaching has been upgraded and the O-linemen need to get their **** together and dominate.

[Throne Logic]

Originally posted by zielinski


Well put. But I also agree that Bledsoe AND THE COMPLEXITY OF THE OFFENSIVE SYSTEM made the line look worse than it was.

Knowing where the receivers will be (and that will be easier when they each don't have 6 read options on any given route) a godsend for any QB that lines up behind our line.

Coaching has been upgraded and the O-linemen need to get their **** together and dominate.

Yup, I agree completely. Drew should have a much better year, just for knowing where his safety valves are GOING to be rather than where they probably should be, kinda sorta.

The O-line has had some crappy coaching with even worse schemes to work with - absolutely. However . . . regardless of any excuses, whether they are good or bad ones, this is pretty much a put-up / shut-up year for everyone at One Bills Drive regarding the O-Line. If they struggle this year, watch out. You'll never see a house-cleaning like the one that will drop on the Bills O-Line. The only one likely coming back in 2005 if they suck in 2004 will be Williams because he's still got a big contact - and that's not a given.

I've given Drew and the O-line a whole lot of slack these past 1 1/2 years, largely because I've hated KG's tactics long before he came to WNY (There's no doubt in my mind why Buddy Ryan clocked him). But this is it. No more. If they suck this year, I'm headed up to Buffalo to help wield around that big house-cleanin' mop.

[SABURZFAN]

Originally posted by Bulldog


I hear ya, espically with all the talent he had around him at freakin Tulane. Way to keep the faith! If JP turns into a franchise QB, I'm sure you will be the first one to applaud TD for his bold move.

big IF and i seriously doubt it.:rolleyes:

[SABURZFAN]

Originally posted by DraftBoy



Thats unfair shot Saburz, Montana couldnt of led that team to a .500 record. Losman took one hell of a beating last season and kept on playing. Hes prolly one of the if not the toughest QB in the class. Him and Rivers would be the top 2.

we'll see how many unfair shots he takes because donahoe can't get an OL together.

[finsrclowns]

Originally posted by Alluro
the problem with the line is on Bledsoe. He makes it look far worse than it is. If he could think quick to plant and throw at the end of his drop, our O-Line would look 100% better.

Remember back during the RJ/Flutie days, the line would always look great when doug played because he was A) more mobile than rob and B) made quicker decisions with the ball than Rob

Flutie will make a bad line look much better than it is because he is elusive. But teams found the way to beat Doug was to contain him and collapse the pocket. Whe teams did that Doug had problems because of his size.

Bledsoe is a guy that relies on his teammates to succeed. When he has a good team around him he plays well, and when he doesn't he can't make his own offense. That's why with a shaky line taking away weapons last year was a death sentence for DB. But if you judge everything on recent history, you're missing some of the picture. Check out Bledsoe's sack to attempt rate for the first five years of his career when he had Parcells for a coach, Bruce Armstrong in his prime and Ben Coates and Curtis Martin.

This year the weapons are there again, assuming WM is healthy. If the line can improve I look for a big comeback from Bledsoe.

[finsrclowns]

Originally posted by Voltron
I recommend to the people that have not watched game film from last year to watch it again with a stop watch and see how much time Drew has in that pocket before it collapses. It is not because our line is the worst in the league (Although I do agree about Teague) it is because Drew can't make quick enough decisions. A QB should have 5 to 7 seconds to throw the ball. If he can’t get rid of it fast enough that is on the QB not his O-line.

If you really have game films I recommend watching the KC game, the first Miami game and the Indy game. I think your stopwatch will note a big difference between Bills on offense vs. Bills on defense. Bledsoe is not blameless but this line has a lot of whiffs and breakdowns on pass blocking.

[buffmaniac]

Compare the time Bledsoe got in the pocket with some other QBs like Brady, Manning, and Green. Watch and you will see that those guys consistently got time in the pocket to look down field. Bledsoe did not. Plus I've already said that in KG's offense, Drew often also had to wait for his WRs to choose their routes on a particular play so he knew where to throw it. This offense had alot of problems last year.

[Dozerdog]

Originally posted by finsrclowns
If you really have game films I recommend watching the KC game, the first Miami game and the Indy game. I think your stopwatch will note a big difference between Bills on offense vs. Bills on defense. Bledsoe is not blameless but this line has a lot of whiffs and breakdowns on pass blocking.


Voltron- 5-7 seconds? The average is 3-4 seconds. Give drew 4 seconds and he's deadly.

Watch the Dallas game. Even Phil Simms- not a very critical or negative announcer- was all over Buffalo for refusing to adjust to the Blitz. It was comical.

[elltrain22]

I know our line is going to be a source of panic for everyone this year, but I say the thing to do w/ the freed up money we now have thanks to bledsoe, is we should lock up clements, and Schobel. Lets not let 2 more good ones get away from us, then we would be looking at defense and o line next year.

[elltrain22]

BTW...

welcome to the board finsrclowns...

nice post too.

[elltrain22]

I'm not trying to be negative, but I'll admit my stomach went into a knot when Justin Smiley was still on the board at 43 and we didn't have our pick

Good point, but at least we got our qb of the future.

My 2nd guess for this years draft was in the 4th rd, when we took Tim Euhus ( who is a marginal player at best in the NFL ) when Nat Dorsey was still on the board.

Those of you who don't know about Dorsey, all he did was shut down ACC pass rushers @ georgia tech for the past 4 years. He even shut down Julius Peppers when he was a freshman...

[finsrclowns]

Originally posted by elltrain22


Good point, but at least we got our qb of the future.

My 2nd guess for this years draft was in the 4th rd, when we took Tim Euhus ( who is a marginal player at best in the NFL ) when Nat Dorsey was still on the board.

Those of you who don't know about Dorsey, all he did was shut down ACC pass rushers @ georgia tech for the past 4 years. He even shut down Julius Peppers when he was a freshman...

Yes, Dorsey would have been a nice pick in the 4th, especially with Jennings a possible FA after the season. But Dorsey did not followup his very promising freshman year as well as was hoped and has had issues keeping his weight down and with work ethic. That's the only way a possible starting LT lasts until mid 4th. He's a boom or bust kinda guy, but I agree a steal no matter what in the 4th. But the staff likes the potential of Euhus and Mularkey being a former TE should know what to look for.

[wharfrat]

Originally posted by finsrclowns


If you really have game films I recommend watching ... the first Miami game ... I think your stopwatch will note a big difference between Bills on offense vs. Bills on defense. .

:punk: :up: :fab:

[B-DON]

i see the euhus pick uselrss with peters onboard

holy sh** why is my avatar so damn big?

[SABURZFAN]

Originally posted by B-DON
i see the euhus pick uselrss with peters onboard

i don't see the euhus pick useless.this kid isn't fast but he can catch the ball.i would think peters would be used more for blocking rather than receiving.i'm happy with the TE situation.campbell will get better too.:up:

[mybills]

Originally posted by buffmaniac
Compare the time Bledsoe got in the pocket with some other QBs like Brady, Manning, and Green. Watch and you will see that those guys consistently got time in the pocket to look down field. Bledsoe did not.

Some times it looked like they let them through on purpose just to teach Drew a lesson on quick release. :chuckle:


:jk:

[Mahdi]

Not only did DB not get time in the pocket, but who was he supposed to throw to? with Moulds injured all season which made it almost impossible for him to be a deep threat it was way too easy for defenses to cover Reed and shaw who are mainly slot guys. That combined with NO TIME is clearly why drew had a sub-par season. IMO

[buffmaniac]

Originally posted by Mahdi
Not only did DB not get time in the pocket, but who was he supposed to throw to? with Moulds injured all season which made it almost impossible for him to be a deep threat it was way too easy for defenses to cover Reed and shaw who are mainly slot guys. That combined with NO TIME is clearly why drew had a sub-par season. IMO

That is what I saw too but many other people here didn't see it that way. Drew just needs to play well this year and everyone will be jumping back on his bandwagon.

[BigZ]

Originally posted by buffmaniac
Compare the time Bledsoe got in the pocket with some other QBs like Brady, Manning, and Green. Watch and you will see that those guys consistently got time in the pocket to look down field. Bledsoe did not. Plus I've already said that in KG's offense, Drew often also had to wait for his WRs to choose their routes on a particular play so he knew where to throw it. This offense had alot of problems last year.

Great post.

You guys are probably tired of hearing me say that Gilbride's system made it tough on both the line and Drew.

The WR and Drew needed to make the SAME reads for a completion to happen. In a three WR set with the RB going out of the backfield and each having two to three route options that amounts to somewhere between 6 and 12 different spots the QB had to throw to. If he reads it different than the WR guess what is likely to happen? Interception or incompletion.

Simplification will be the key to the offence looking good this year.

[The_Philster]

Originally posted by zielinski
Great post.

You guys are probably tired of hearing me say that Gilbride's system made it tough on both the line and Drew.

The WR and Drew needed to make the SAME reads for a completion to happen. In a three WR set with the RB going out of the backfield and each having two to three route options that amounts to somewhere between 6 and 12 different spots the QB had to throw to. If he reads it different than the WR guess what is likely to happen? Interception or incompletion.

Simplification will be the key to the offence looking good this year.

Why would anyone be tired of hearing you talk common sense? That's how it happened it Pittsburgh...and Mularkey simplified the offense and Stewart went to the Pro Bowl. Unless someone actually believes Stewart is some great QB, there's no reason I see the same thing can't happen here.

[finsrclowns]

Originally posted by zielinski


Great post.

You guys are probably tired of hearing me say that Gilbride's system made it tough on both the line and Drew.

The WR and Drew needed to make the SAME reads for a completion to happen. In a three WR set with the RB going out of the backfield and each having two to three route options that amounts to somewhere between 6 and 12 different spots the QB had to throw to. If he reads it different than the WR guess what is likely to happen? Interception or incompletion.

Simplification will be the key to the offence looking good this year.

If Buddy Ryan had been the Bills DC last year Killdrive would have been in a body cast by year end.:anvil:

[RUDEbyallMEANS]

Miami, Buffalo and the Jets are very weak on the O-line.

That's the reason I don't see either 3 going better than 9-7.

[buffmaniac]

Originally posted by RUDEbyallMEANS
Miami, Buffalo and the Jets are very weak on the O-line.

That's the reason I don't see either 3 going better than 9-7.

Two Words: Jim McNally