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Halbert
05-14-2004, 04:29 PM
I have a copy of the Koran in my hand.

From my perspective, of all the major religious texts it is admittedly the most authoritarian, judgmental, condescending, and dogmatic. Frankly I find most of it boring and of little use to my personal spirituality.

However, I also find it very reminiscent of much of the Old Testament. Most of it is like one long Leviticus, with obscure definitions of what is right and wrong and long diatribes about punishments being meted out for non-conformists and non-believers. I see that element of mindset as being virtually identical to that of rightmost Christianity.

This is understandable in that Muslims see Islam as a continuation of orthodox Jewish and Christian teachings, a clarification or expansion on those traditions, if you will. The Koran focuses heavily on the life of Moses and his delivery of the Israelites to the Promised Land, the same events that form the dawn of Christianity on earth. In fact, the Koran itself proclaims that Allah is exactly the same god of the Christians and Jews when it says ďWe believe in Allah and that which is sent down to us, and in what was sent down to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob and the tribes; to Moses and Jesus and the prophets of their Lord. We do not differentiate between any of them, and to Him we are submissive (Muslims.)Ē Koran 2:136.

Furthermore, Muslims do not believe that Prophet Muhammad was the only prophet; rather they believe that he was the last of the prophets of the Old and New Testaments. Thus they see all the Prophets as equals with Muhammad being only the latest and presumably most accurate. However, they certainly donít see any of them being gods themselves or even Godís sons. There is only one God and that god is Allah (and/or Jehovah and/or Yahweh).

In general it is a religion that appeals primarily to people who prefer a strict external moral template, guidelines laid out very clearly for them that provide a framework for conformance. In this way it is very similar to orthodox Christianity. It promotes a complete submission of oneself to the will of God in order to achieve salvation. In fact, the Arabic word ďIslamĒ implies the attainment of peace through submission to Allah and those who follow him through the instructions given in the Koran believe it shows them the right path to take to achieve that peace.

I find it to be very consistent with the ultra-conservative mindset that we can easily recognize in this country and elsewhere. Muslims believe in the resurrection of the dead at the end of the world; they believe in the coming of the Day of Judgment and eternal life in Paradise or Hell. Although they believe that Allah is all powerful and maintains complete control over His creation, they also believe that He has created man with free will and the ability to choose and act, that man is morally responsible for what does during his/her lifetime.

Sound familiar?

Just as there are many ways the Bible is interpreted ranging from justification to kill in the name of God to the commitment to deep compassion and pure love, the same is true of the Koran and Islam. Just like with the Bible, there is a choice on how to apply its concepts, which ultimately defines the impact it has on your life and the lives of others.

If you focus on the harsh authoritarian elements of the Koran youíll miss some of the more beautiful aspects of the religion:

- The Koran is tolerant and respectful of other religions and their followers who share the belief in the One and only God. ďPeople of the Book, (Jews and Christians), let us come to a common word between us and you that we will worship none except Allah, that we will associate none with Him, and that none of us take others for lords besides Allah.Ē Tolerance of other religions is clearly evident in ďThere is no compulsion in religionĒ Koran 2:256 and ďTo you your religion, and to me my religion.Ē Koran 109:6

- Islam teaches that the human family is one and rejects all notions of racial prejudice. The only basis of distinction between human beings is their belief and individual moral qualities. All people are basically equal, from top to bottom, from rich to poor, from educated to uneducated.

- Islam teaches that their faith by itself is not enough and requires action. Muhammad said; "Faith does not depend on raising hopes, but it is something which is firmly established in the heart and testified to by action. Indeed, there are people who have been deceived by their hopes, so that they finally leave this world without merit. They used to say, 'We have good expectations from Allah.' Yet they only deceived themselves. For had they truly placed good expectations in Allah, they would have excelled in good deeds." Islam challenges the believer to fight against wrong and oppression and to strive for the establishment of righteousness and justice.

- Despite practices weíve seen recently that would suggest otherwise, the Koran is specific in defining the equal role of women. Similar to traditional old-school Christianity, men are supposed to be the primary bread winners and women the primary caretakers of the family. Women are instructed to be submissive to the decisions of their husbands, but not in the manner of a slave as is commonly perceived. "But whosoever does good works of righteousness, whether they be a believing male or female, shall enter Paradise.Ē Koran 4:124 and ďI do not waste the labor of any that labors among you, male or female, you are from each other.Ē Koran 3:195.

One very large distinction of Islam from Christianity is non-adherence to the turn the other cheek philosophy of Jesus. Where Jesus would instruct us to forgive our brothers even if they seek to kill us, Islam instructs us to do everything we can to live in peace with our brothers and sisters, but not so far as to allow our enemies to kill us. This is in order that we may survive to educate our enemies as to why they should not want to kill us and hopefully bring them around to our mindset of brothers under one god. Quite frankly, this is an element of Islam that I personally agree with and find to be more pragmatic and beneficial than the ultra-pacifist position that Jesus promoted.

Conclusion

I donít think there is any doubt the Islam is facing a very critical time in its history. It has a major problem with extremism and even many moderate Muslims harbor a tendency away from the religious tolerance and respect commanded in their own sacred text. This had led to an ďus versus themĒ mentality that has spawned a virtually ceaseless cycle of aggression among themselves and others. Fortunately this element appears to be peaking at this point in time. At least I hope itís peaking.

Despite these current challenges, to paint all Muslims and the Islamic religion with the broad of brush of violence and oppression is not only unfair it is completely inaccurate. While I certainly wouldnít call it a progressive religion, it does contain within it some of the most beautiful and essential elements of a mindset that seeks to bring all humans together for a common cause of goodness.

Just like any other spiritual tradition it is not for everyone. Even though I donít find the flavor of Islam to resonate with my personal spirituality, I can respect that it is a religion that will appeal to and provide a great benefit for the type of individual that requires a clearly defined set of beliefs and boundaries to express that faith within. To me it represents a valid subset of understanding that combined with the human experience as a whole brings us closer to Universal Truth.

For those Muslims that follow the tenets of Islam that require mutual respect and the pursuit of peace, I consider them my spiritual partners.

Peace.

LtBillsFan66
05-14-2004, 04:31 PM
When do the cliffs notes to your post come out?

Patrick76777
05-14-2004, 04:31 PM
ZZZzzzzzzzzzzzz, ZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

STAMPY
05-14-2004, 04:32 PM
lol

Novacane
05-14-2004, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by billsfanone
When do the cliffs notes to your post come out?



Did Wys get Hals password

STAMPY
05-14-2004, 04:33 PM
that post was as interesting as any holy book lol jk halbert nice job

LtBillsFan66
05-14-2004, 04:33 PM
I hate or like people based on snap judgments. I don't go studying their culture or anything.

05-14-2004, 04:37 PM
Hey, lay off guys. You're gonna make Hal falafel :(

Halbert
05-14-2004, 04:41 PM
My goal was to make it as short as possible and still address all the core issues. It is an important issue and unfortunately can't be addressed in a handful of sentences.

But thank you for your feedback!

:moon:

lol

LtBillsFan66
05-14-2004, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by Halbert
My goal was to make it as short as possible and still address all the core issues. It is an important issue and unfortunately can't be addressed in a handful of sentences.

But thank you for your feedback!

:moon:

lol

I'll help you make it short.

Should be bomb them to dirt? Yes or no?

STAMPY
05-14-2004, 04:45 PM
bomb isreal too

lordofgun
05-14-2004, 04:46 PM
http://www.protestwarrior.com/images/posters/sign_24.jpg

LtBillsFan66
05-14-2004, 04:47 PM
Bomb everyone except Kuwait!

Captain gameboy
05-14-2004, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by Halbert
Just as there are many ways the Bible is interpreted ranging from justification to kill in the name of God to the commitment to deep compassion and pure love, the same is true of the Koran and Islam. Just like with the Bible, there is a choice on how to apply its concepts, which ultimately defines the impact it has on your life and the lives of others.

[/B]

I have never read it, but I have read many books about it, and they were all richly supplied with exact quotes.

How I might interpret it really doesn't matter. The issue that gives me great concern is how it's adherents interpret it, and what subsequent actions they take as the result of that interpretation.

The Biblical New Testament, obviously the foundation of Christianity, leaves little room for any interpretation that would justify killing people.
Some adherents of the Koran do not see things that way.

What I would love to see, and what is a screaming siren to me, is the near total lack of formal condemnation and extreme pressure that needs to be brought to bear by the peaceful followers of Islam on the violent ones.

STAMPY
05-14-2004, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by lordofgun
http://www.protestwarrior.com/images/posters/sign_24.jpg

LOG its a true story, it was the palestinians land, i learned about it in college. shockingly a jewish professor told me bout it, he was against his own people

LtBillsFan66
05-14-2004, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by BuffaloBillsSTAMPEDE
LOG its a true story, it was the palestinians land, i learned about it in college. shockingly a jewish professor told me bout it, he was against his own people

Self hating Jew. :mad:

TypicalBill
05-14-2004, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by billsfanone
Bomb everyone except Kuwait!



boy you're really climbing back up the ladder.. first the avatar, then this. :beer:


whats the catch? :eek:

Patrick76777
05-14-2004, 04:51 PM
I say we give the Jews New Mexico or South Dakota!


That way, everyone is happy!

LtBillsFan66
05-14-2004, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by TypicalBill
boy you're really climbing back up the ladder.. first the avatar, then this. :beer:


whats the catch? :eek:

I need an oil change in my car. Can you hood me up? :D

Patrick76777
05-14-2004, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by Patrick76777
I say we give the Jews New Mexico or South Dakota!


That way, everyone is happy!


Just think of all the money dem Jews would bring in!

LtBillsFan66
05-14-2004, 04:53 PM
Originally posted by Patrick76777
Just think of all the money dem Jews would bring in!

Not too far from Hollywood either...

TypicalBill
05-14-2004, 04:53 PM
Originally posted by billsfanone
I need an oil change in my car. Can you hood me up? :D

well i do own a couple of oil wells so....

LtBillsFan66
05-14-2004, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by TypicalBill
well i do own a couple of oil wells so....

:shake:

Patrick76777
05-14-2004, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by billsfanone


Not too far from Hollywood either...


That's what I'm talking about!

The Jews are happy
We're happy, Extra money
The Arabs is happy!


Life is good.

LtBillsFan66
05-14-2004, 04:55 PM
OY!

BAM
05-14-2004, 04:55 PM
TB! ... maybe we could set up a black market here at the zone then.. since gas is so ****ing expensive here :mad: and you own some oil wells :idunno:

TypicalBill
05-14-2004, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by billsfanone
:shake:

free oil for the rest of your life :shake:

Patrick76777
05-14-2004, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by TypicalBill


free oil for the rest of your life :shake:

Dude, I want in!

LtBillsFan66
05-14-2004, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by BAM
TB! ... maybe we could set up a black market here at the zone then.. since gas is so ****ing expensive here :mad: and you own some oil wells :idunno:

Dude, you're cutting in on my business. :mad:

TypicalBill
05-14-2004, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by BAM
TB! ... maybe we could set up a black market here at the zone then.. since gas is so ****ing expensive here :mad: and you own some oil wells :idunno:

:chuckle: Good idea. We'll have a secret forum just for that :up:

LtBillsFan66
05-14-2004, 04:59 PM
I get a % of anything sold. I'm the one that brought about this peace agreement. :mad:

I should be a diplomat. :up:

BAM
05-14-2004, 05:00 PM
Originally posted by billsfanone


Dude, you're cutting in on my business. :mad:

dog eat dog :snicker2:

LtBillsFan66
05-14-2004, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by BAM
dog eat dog :snicker2:

eat this!

TypicalBill
05-14-2004, 05:02 PM
We're ruining HAL's thread :shakeno:

start another thread for this.

Sorry Hal :up:

LtBillsFan66
05-14-2004, 05:03 PM
Who's hal?

Halbert
05-14-2004, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by gameboy
The issue that gives me great concern is how it's adherents interpret it, and what subsequent actions they take as the result of that interpretation.
I agree.


The Biblical New Testament, obviously the foundation of Christianity, leaves little room for any interpretation that would justify killing people. Some adherents of the Koran do not see things that way.
As far as the NT goes, yes. But wouldnít you say the majority of Christians of all denominations donít separate the Old and New Testaments and consider the whole book to be the authentic word of God? Leviticus in particular lists a great many reasons for executing someone and gives instructions on how to do so.

Granted, Christianity doesnít have a significant fundamentalist problem right now but itís history is full of violence. I read somewhere that more people have been killed in the name of Christianity than all other religions combined. Iím not sure if thatís entirely true or not but you get the point.


What I would love to see, and what is a screaming siren to me, is the near total lack of formal condemnation and extreme pressure that needs to be brought to bear by the peaceful followers of Islam on the violent ones.
A great many Islamic leaders have unequivocally condemned the use of violence, especially including terrorism. I agree, however, that voice is not being prominently heard and more needs to be done to eliminate that from anything close to mainstream Islam.

The_Philster
05-14-2004, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by BuffaloBillsSTAMPEDE
LOG its a true story, it was the palestinians land, i learned about it in college. shockingly a jewish professor told me bout it, he was against his own people

Yep...we talked about it less than a month ago as well. :up:

LtBillsFan66
05-14-2004, 05:05 PM
Originally posted by The_Philster
Yep...we talked about it less than a month ago as well. :up:

This is what they are brainwashing you with in schools nowadays. :shakeno:

Halbert
05-14-2004, 05:05 PM
Originally posted by TypicalBill
We're ruining HAL's thread :shakeno:

start another thread for this.

Sorry Hal :up:

Too late, bro.

But thanks for the thought.

05-14-2004, 05:05 PM
"What are you doing, Dave ?"
-HAL

The_Philster
05-14-2004, 05:07 PM
Originally posted by billsfanone
This is what they are brainwashing you with in schools nowadays. :shakeno:

:lol:
Yep...the facts. :D Too bad our politicians weren't required to learn a little of this stuff. ;)

LtBillsFan66
05-14-2004, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by The_Philster
:lol:
Yep...the facts. :D Too bad our politicians weren't required to learn a little of this stuff. ;)

"Facts."

Such a subjective term...

TypicalBill
05-14-2004, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by Halbert
Too late, bro.

But thanks for the thought.

ok, to make it up to you, im willing to take questions from anyone regarding Islam, although i dont like to get into this kind of thing on message boards. I'll answer the to the best of my knowledge.

LtBillsFan66
05-14-2004, 05:10 PM
Originally posted by billsfanone
"Facts."

Such a subjective term...

I think I can make this a t-shirt and make millions! :$:

The_Philster
05-14-2004, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by billsfanone
"Facts."

Such a subjective term...

not really. If something happened in history, it's a fact...like the Holocaust. Of course, there are those who actually believe that was a myth as well. :scratch:

LtBillsFan66
05-14-2004, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by TypicalBill
ok, to make it up to you, im willing to take questions from anyone regarding Islam, although i dont like to get into this kind of thing on message boards. I'll answer the to the best of my knowledge.

Why do all Muslims want to kill Americans?


:jk:

STAMPY
05-14-2004, 05:12 PM
TB, are you muslim?

TypicalBill
05-14-2004, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by billsfanone
Why do all Muslims want to kill Americans?


:jk:

they dont, these people just grow beards and pretend to be Muslims. The people you see doing that on TV are terrorists that are making the religion look bad.

next question.

TypicalBill
05-14-2004, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by BuffaloBillsSTAMPEDE
TB, are you muslim?

yes sir, i am.

Halbert
05-14-2004, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by TypicalBill
ok, to make it up to you, im willing to take questions from anyone regarding Islam, although i dont like to get into this kind of thing on message boards. I'll answer the to the best of my knowledge.
Ok, how can I shag a hot Muslim chick?

pcnorth22
05-14-2004, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by Patrick76777
I say we give the Jews New Mexico or South Dakota!


That way, everyone is happy!

During the Zionist movement of the 19th century..before it was decided to "reclaim" Israel.... one Jewish man decided to turn Grand Island (yes that Grand Island) into the new Jewish homeland....

http://www.jewishamerica.com/ja/timeline/zionism.cfm

oh...how different things would have been...and would be

TypicalBill
05-14-2004, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by Halbert
Ok, how can I shag a hot Muslim chick?

tell her you know TB :naughty:

05-14-2004, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by pcnorth22


.... one Jewish man decided to turn Grand Island (yes that Grand Island) into the new Jewish homeland....



Fun ? WOW !

STAMPY
05-14-2004, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by TypicalBill
yes sir, i am.

im muslim too, but not a follower much at all... im a sinner LOL i go to mosque once a year. only thing i follow is fasting in ramadan and i never eat pork. i try to be nice person but the no women, drinking, drugs thing nah

STAMPY
05-14-2004, 05:34 PM
people say i look italian i dunno y

Halbert
05-14-2004, 05:35 PM
I tried that. She started screaming in Arabic with English words mixed in. I caught something about "pencil putz" and "thirty seconds" before she spit in my face and stormed off.

TypicalBill
05-14-2004, 05:40 PM
i must've dumped her :idunno:




:D

Halbert
05-14-2004, 06:03 PM
So I'm curious - did anyone actually read my post?

My feelings won't be hurt if not, I'll just know you're all a bunch of infidel bastards and proclaim a jihad against the Zone. No biggie.

05-14-2004, 06:09 PM
The beheadings will commence at 6:30 EDT

The_Philster
05-14-2004, 06:10 PM
Originally posted by Halbert
So I'm curious - did anyone actually read my post?

My feelings won't be hurt if not, I'll just know you're all a bunch of infidel bastards and proclaim a jihad against the Zone. No biggie.
I did. ...excellent post. :up:
I just think too many people are afraid to learn and think for themselves and are too willing to let the government tell them what to think. :idunno:

Halbert
05-14-2004, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by –
The beheadings will commence at 6:30 EDT
You're first, brah.

Halbert
05-14-2004, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by The_Philster
... and are too willing to let the government tell them what to think.
Or their church.

Halbert
05-14-2004, 06:21 PM
It might not look like it but it took me many hours of research and several hours to write.

But we are supposed to give from our hearts and not look for a reward. So forget I mentioned that. lol.

Bufftp
05-14-2004, 06:51 PM
Originally posted by Halbert
So I'm curious - did anyone actually read my post?

My feelings won't be hurt if not, I'll just know you're all a bunch of infidel bastards and proclaim a jihad against the Zone. No biggie.
I read it, I disagree with our old testament anology, particularly with years seperating there writing.

SABURZFAN
05-14-2004, 06:56 PM
Originally posted by Halbert
Ok, how can I shag a hot Muslim chick?


Originally posted by TypicalBill
tell her you know TB :naughty:



:lolcry:

Cntrygal
05-14-2004, 07:21 PM
Originally posted by billsfanone
"Facts."

Such a subjective term...

Probably the most brilliant and truest thing you've ever posted. :10:


Originally posted by TypicalBill
they dont, these people just grow beards and pretend to be Muslims. The people you see doing that on TV are terrorists that are making the religion look bad.

next question.

TB, Are there any groups in Kuwait or in the ME that actually try to denouce these terrorists?

Bufftp
05-14-2004, 07:21 PM
Originally posted by The_Philster


:lol:
Yep...the facts. :D Too bad our politicians weren't required to learn a little of this stuff. ;)
Oh Phil please entertain us with your exegesis on the Koran.

The_Philster
05-14-2004, 07:33 PM
Originally posted by Bufftp
Oh Phil please entertain us with your exegesis on the Koran.

Never read it myself but I'll take the word of those who have over those of people who hate Muslims just based on the fact that they are Muslims.

SABURZFAN
05-14-2004, 07:33 PM
Originally posted by Bufftp

Oh Phil please entertain us with your exegesis on the Koran.

let's not and say he did.:biggrin:

Bufftp
05-14-2004, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by The_Philster


Never read it myself but I'll take the word of those who have over those of people who hate Muslims just based on the fact that they are Muslims.
Phil that is an arrogant post. Many people who have studied the Koran and other Islamic writings are troubled by it, but in no way hate Muslims. Your point is utterly ridicouls resorting to name calling to attempt to cover up your own admitted ignorance, by painting people whom might have disagreement with you with the braod and unfounded brush of hate mongers.

Cntrygal
05-14-2004, 07:42 PM
:hail:
Originally posted by Bufftp
Phil that is an arrogant post. Many people who have studied the Koran and other Islamic writings are troubled by it, but in no way hate Muslims. Your point is utterly ridicouls resorting to name calling to attempt to cover up your own admitted ignorance, by painting people whom might have disagreement with you with the braod and unfounded brush of hate mongers.

:10:

The_Philster
05-14-2004, 07:47 PM
Originally posted by Bufftp
Phil that is an arrogant post. Many people who have studied the Koran and other Islamic writings are troubled by it, but in no way hate Muslims. Your point is utterly ridicouls resorting to name calling to attempt to cover up your own admitted ignorance, by painting people whom might have disagreement with you with the braod and unfounded brush of hate mongers.

no more arrogant than thinking that our way is the only way. I've never said that people disagreeing with me automatically were hate-mongers. Please back up your claim. It's ridiculous to automatically assume our President is right when history has shown us he's screwing up...our nation has been in the wrong in dealing with the Middle East for decades...if people can't see that after all these years, I just don't know what to say anymore. :cynic:

Captain gameboy
05-14-2004, 10:08 PM
Originally posted by Halbert
So I'm curious - did anyone actually read my post?

My feelings won't be hurt if not, I'll just know you're all a bunch of infidel bastards and proclaim a jihad against the Zone. No biggie.

I read it, but I was deeply involved in my high school baseball pregame meal of unbuttered popcorn at the time, so I couldn't respond.

Hal, I've always thought of you as an intelligent, thoughtful individual who painstakingly tries to make careful, thoughtful points.

But, sometimes I think there's an element of faculty lounge-ism in these things.
In other words, I get such a kick out of the illuminati of Europe and our hemisphere when they discuss these things because they never address what decisions people who are actually in the game have to make.

In short, they don't sit where others do, and by not having those responsibilities, they are free to chat ideas up and down.

A philosophical discussion about Koran interpretation is interesting, but to an airline captain who is fully responsible for ensuring 220 people get to their destinations safely, and who knows that one more hit and his company is gone, only cares about the one crazy fundamentalist who is trying to kill them all, especially when there is actual historical data and repeated threats.
Those are his primary concerns over the Koran interpretation, and the unfortunate fact that a few interpret it dangerously.

He doesn't view his Christian passengers as being nearly as dangerous.

A similar discussion could be held on the much-bashed Patriot Act.

Of course there are things in there that allow the gov greater access, but when the INS admits that it has no freakin' idea where 200,000 young people on expired student visas are, and one of them has just taken down the WTC, there's a few alterations that might just be justifiable until the problem is resolved.

Just a thought.

Captain gameboy
05-14-2004, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by The_Philster


....... history has shown us he's screwing up...our nation has been in the wrong in dealing with the Middle East for decades...if people can't see that after all these years, I just don't know what to say anymore. :cynic:

I notice you don't say much to back it up.
No offense, but you say these things, then when the thread gets to brass tacks, you're absent.
We all make our own decisions about what and when we post, but to make such claims and then back out without providing amplifying info seems a little disingenous.

Again, it's your choice.

Dozerdog
05-15-2004, 12:03 AM
Originally posted by Cntrygal


TB, Are there any groups in Kuwait or in the ME that actually try to denouce these terrorists?

I think the Bangor, ME Rotary Club and the Lions Club of Augusta , ME are anti- terrorist as well......Those Maine-iacs are nuts!

The_Philster
05-15-2004, 04:50 AM
Originally posted by gameboy
I notice you don't say much to back it up.
No offense, but you say these things, then when the thread gets to brass tacks, you're absent.
We all make our own decisions about what and when we post, but to make such claims and then back out without providing amplifying info seems a little disingenous.

Again, it's your choice.

I've already made my statements to back up what I said. Unlike some, I've never claimed to have all the answers. I do know that we are not wanted there but the 14 bases we seem to plan on keeping there indicate we'd have to be forced out unless we get an administration not interested in oppression on the scale we've been guilty of. 14 bases in Iraq, especially after they put up a government that we approve of (another screw-up on our part...sounds like we're remaining in control) is beyond stupidity, IMO....and no one has yet to explain why a permanent military occupation equates to just "liberating" them. I'm pretty much done discussing politics on this board...I ended a friendship last night because someone, instead of debating a point, chose to put words in my mouth and make me out to have said something I didn't...I have an extremely low toleration for dishonesty...a trait we see in most politicians.
I'm only gonna say this. Had we stayed out of it or tried to prevent Israel from stealing Palestinean land instead of aiding them, we'd have more allies in the Middle East and a lot of lives would be saved.

Captain gameboy
05-15-2004, 05:53 AM
I don't know of anybody who has ever "claimed to have all the answers."
The sad thing is that there are no answers, only attempts.
We sure as heck have tried to influence Israel in an effort to restrain them, and we didn't aid them in "stealing Palestinian land."

The_Philster
05-15-2004, 07:58 AM
that so explains all the aid we've given them...not

Originally posted by gameboy
A philosophical discussion about Koran interpretation is interesting, but to an airline captain who is fully responsible for ensuring 220 people get to their destinations safely, and who knows that one more hit and his company is gone, only cares about the one crazy fundamentalist who is trying to kill them all, especially when there is actual historical data and repeated threats.
Those are his primary concerns over the Koran interpretation, and the unfortunate fact that a few interpret it dangerously.

He doesn't view his Christian passengers as being nearly as dangerous. sounds like a racist airline captain...or one who simply lacks common sense. There are Christian terrorists who interpret the Bible wrong as well.

Erik vonDarkmoor
05-15-2004, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by Halbert
So I'm curious - did anyone actually read my post?

My feelings won't be hurt if not, I'll just know you're all a bunch of infidel bastards and proclaim a jihad against the Zone. No biggie.

Yes I did. I enjoy reading your insights and opinions on this type of subject. Whether its politics or religion, it's hard to have an objective debate over them. Finding someone who is capable of that is refreshing.

It is interesting how much of it is familiar and how persons of different persuasions act much the same.

Sabre Ally
05-15-2004, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by Halbert
So I'm curious - did anyone actually read my post?

My feelings won't be hurt if not, I'll just know you're all a bunch of infidel bastards and proclaim a jihad against the Zone. No biggie.

Halbert, I'm sorry it took me so long to get around to reading this thread. That was an excellent post, and despite the usual thread-jacking and jokes, it does look like I'm not the only one who thought so. :)

Halbert
05-15-2004, 04:31 PM
Thanks Ally! And everyone else who read it.

It's taken a while but people have been slowly paying attention to it, which is nice. I find the subject fascinating, but it's more important to me to at least get the focus off of Islam as being a religion that promotes violence. I can see why it has drawn criticism, including mine, and Islam has it's problems but it's not nearly as bad as it's portrayed sometimes.

Halbert
05-15-2004, 04:32 PM
Hey Ted -

Over at BBI Shiva asked a good question:


I never took Jesus' advice to "turn the other cheek" as a command to practice pacifism to the death.

Did Jesus teach that it was NEVER appropriate to use force to defend yourself?

Jesus DIDN"T say "if a man stabs you in the back, present him with your chest".

Itís been a long time since Iíve researched that question directly so Iím struggling to come up with anything substantial. I do think Muhammad was at least much more aggressive on this than Jesus was but whether itís a matter of degrees or a real difference in philosophy I canít honestly answer.

Itís an important distinction that Iím not prepared to make. Can you help give us some Biblical context to the question?

Thanks!

LtBillsFan66
05-15-2004, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by TypicalBill
they dont, these people just grow beards and pretend to be Muslims. The people you see doing that on TV are terrorists that are making the religion look bad.

next question.

I was kidding ya man.

LtBillsFan66
05-15-2004, 06:58 PM
Originally posted by BuffaloBillsSTAMPEDE
TB, are you muslim?

He's a real one. Not a fake like SOME people.

lordofgun
05-15-2004, 09:03 PM
I bet stampy didn't even read Hal's post. :cynic:

Bufftp
05-15-2004, 09:35 PM
Originally posted by Halbert



A great many Islamic leaders have unequivocally condemned the use of violence, especially including terrorism. I agree, however, that voice is not being prominently heard and more needs to be done to eliminate that from anything close to mainstream Islam.
sadly that really is not true Hal. The problem is the silence on that matter. Its not been a great many but a very very few.

STAMPY
05-16-2004, 12:14 AM
Originally posted by lordofgun
I bet stampy didn't even read Hal's post. :cynic:

it was too long

STAMPY
05-16-2004, 12:15 AM
Originally posted by billsfanone
He's a real one. Not a fake like SOME people.

LOL shuddup

Halbert
05-16-2004, 01:30 AM
I saw a list somewhere that had the Islamic organizations that had condemned the 9/11 attacks. It was pretty long but I admit that I didn't really study it or have a basis to understand how much it represented the Islam community as a whole so perhaps you are correct, I don't know. I guess we're both right in a way but perhaps it wasn't as widespread as it appeared to me at the time. Too bad there isn't a Muslim Vatican or something that could speak for the entire community. But they're so fractured it might not mean much anyway, though it would be a beneficial gesture nonetheless.

TypicalBill
05-16-2004, 08:56 AM
We have people condemn these acts everyday, its all over the newspapers.. its just that these things never reach you guys for some reason. Even so, do people really need to hear other countries say that killing innocent people is wrong? isn't it obvious? Everyone knows these people are terrorists.

These terrorists dont just kill foreigners, they blew up a building just last month that resulted in hundreds of deaths and injuries IN Saudi Arabia. I mean the building looked naked after the explosion.

They're hungry for power and control.



BTW, i finally read your initial post Hal, it seemed very long that day, but i read it today :up:

SABURZFAN
05-16-2004, 09:08 AM
Originally posted by Halbert
Over at BBI Shiva asked a good question:


:laughter:

tell Shiva to ask BogusTrumper.that would be good practice to solve cryptic posts.:snicker:

Halbert
05-16-2004, 05:54 PM
Shiva's a left wing nut but brings up some excellent points.

Hey Ted, did you see the question? Any insight?

Bufftp
05-16-2004, 06:25 PM
Originally posted by Halbert
Shiva's a left wing nut but brings up some excellent points.


Hey Ted, did you see the question? Any insight?
Yes I thought Matts answer was good though he could of commented on personal role vrs government role, and the individuals responsibilities when acting as an agent in fulfilling the duties of the government. I also donít want to be a smart @ss. ;)