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Valerie
05-16-2004, 05:42 PM
Is anyone watching this tonight? I am. I am very interested in what motivates criminals and how they think. Charles Manson is one of the most mentally unstable criminals out there.

I watched a good movie on Andrew Luster, the heir to the Max Factor fortune. He used to put that liquid X (GCB I think) in his dates drinks so he could rape them. He was another sick MoFo.

John Wayne Gacy and Ted Bundy are two more sickos! And how can you forget the Hillside Stranglers? Those two were a real sick pair!

Anyway, back to Charlie. Does this interest anyone else?

The_Philster
05-16-2004, 05:44 PM
I'll be watching the 2-hour season finale of Charmed myself

BAM
05-16-2004, 05:45 PM
:jawdrop: it's 3 hours long. I'll probably watch a little bit of it before I fall out tonight.

Dozerdog
05-16-2004, 05:45 PM
Half way through the movie- somebody should drive by Valerie's place and knock on a window..then run away...:snicker:

Valerie
05-16-2004, 05:46 PM
lol I can't start watching the new Charmed episodes until I'm 100% through the old ones. Although, Charmed is one of my favorite shows on television right now. And it only took me how many seasons to finally start watching it? lol

Valerie
05-16-2004, 05:49 PM
Originally posted by Dozerdog Half way through the movie- somebody should drive by Valerie's place and knock on a window..then run away...:snicker:
I would die of a heart attack for sure! lol

I remember watching Copy Cat at 4pm in the afternoon and at 10pm when I had to take Sable out, I was TERRIFIED to go back into the house for fear that someone snuck in while I was across the street with her. When I did go in, I took all the pets upstairs inot my room and locked the door. I hate those true crime stories. I have nightmares for MONTHS afterwards.

The_Philster
05-16-2004, 05:51 PM
:lol: Dozer...who needs the address? :snicker:


Originally posted by Valerie
lol I can't start watching the new Charmed episodes until I'm 100% through the old ones. Although, Charmed is one of my favorite shows on television right now. And it only took me how many seasons to finally start watching it? lol

this is the 6th season...took you long enough :cynic: ;)

05-16-2004, 05:56 PM
I just bought Helter Skelter on VHS for a buck at the porn shop. Watched it the other night...very 1976 Streets of San Franciscosish.

It's based on the book that I read when I was 12, basically an extremly boring account of the trial by Bugliosi.

Halbert
05-16-2004, 06:01 PM
I used to have the same curiosity but I burnt it out a while ago. I watched the old move then read the book about it.

So many times you can't tell someone's crazy just by looking at them. But not Manson. Even in the old footage of him you can just see it in his face and eyes. Creeeepy.

Have you seen any of the several prison interviews over the years? He's not getting any better. I've always thought people used the word evil far too liberally but in his case it's appropriate.

Bill Brasky
05-16-2004, 06:05 PM
I am not. Made for TV movies are a far cry from the truth.

Novacane
05-16-2004, 06:25 PM
Lifes to short to be spent in front of the idiot box

imbondz
05-16-2004, 06:32 PM
Originally posted by Dozerdog
Half way through the movie- somebody should drive by Valerie's place and knock on a window..then run away...:snicker:

:rofl: I will.

honey
05-16-2004, 06:38 PM
Charles Starkweather was another completely insane person.

I might watch tonight, I'm not sure yet.

imbondz
05-16-2004, 06:43 PM
Jesus loves Charles Manson.

mybills
05-16-2004, 07:15 PM
Originally posted by The_Philster
I'll be watching the 2-hour season finale of Charmed myself

I bought a white lighter today. I think it's a Bic. :up:

mybills
05-16-2004, 07:18 PM
I saw the Manson movie before. I'll be watching Friday's 'Days of Our Lives' .. Marlena (the serial killer) was shot to death! :eek:

helmetguy
05-16-2004, 07:21 PM
I'll be watching it, Valerie. According to Bugliosi, this version of the book will deal more with Manson himself and his "control" over the Family; whereas the 1976 version was more about the murders and the trial. Make no mistake about it, Manson was a pretty smart guy. Like any sociopath, he was a master manipulator

LtBillsFan66
05-16-2004, 07:35 PM
Manson had uber-minions.

mybills
05-16-2004, 07:39 PM
Originally posted by helmetguy
Like any sociopath, he was a master manipulator

Sounds like my brother's wife. :snicker:

The_Philster
05-16-2004, 07:44 PM
Originally posted by mybills
I bought a white lighter today. I think it's a Bic. :up:

:lol:
Hey mybills...you ready for the series finale of Angel on Wednesday?

mybills
05-16-2004, 07:52 PM
Angel :drool: I haven't been watching since they switched the cable channels around. :( I never know what time or channel it's on.

The_Philster
05-16-2004, 07:53 PM
Originally posted by mybills
Angel :drool: I haven't been watching since they switched the cable channels around. :( I never know what time or channel it's on.

9pm Wednesday on the WB

05-17-2004, 07:51 AM
Originally posted by billsfanone
Manson had uber-minions.

But he was at least charismatic. It's amazing what the kids follow today.

Valerie
05-17-2004, 08:54 AM
Originally posted by helmetguy I'll be watching it, Valerie. According to Bugliosi, this version of the book will deal more with Manson himself and his "control" over the Family; whereas the 1976 version was more about the murders and the trial. Make no mistake about it, Manson was a pretty smart guy. Like any sociopath, he was a master manipulator
Oh, I know Manson is highy intelligent. I think you have to be to be able to do and control people the way he did.

I really don't know much about Manson or the murders, but after watching the movie last night, I'm still totally blown away that he was able to manipulate these young people to brutally kill the way they did. And the sickest part was they had absolutely NO remorse at all. It's very sad.

I thought the movie was pretty good. Like I said, I never saw the original nor have I read Helter Skelter.

Earthquake Enyart
05-17-2004, 08:58 AM
Watch a made for TV movie and miss The Soprano's and Deadwood? NFW! :mad:

helmetguy
05-17-2004, 09:04 AM
Originally posted by –
But he was at least charismatic. It's amazing what the kids follow today.

Not really. Because of the bizarre nature of the crimes and even more bizarre behavior of the defendants at trial, Manson's name has come to evoke images of deranged evil. He was charismatic once, I guess, as a sort of counter-culture "icon." Kids today don't "follow" him per se. Most of them probably don't have a clue about the "Helter Skelter" that Manson was preaching.

BTW, the guy who played Manson in the new version of the movie sucked! Even when Manson (the real one) goes into his historionics for TV interviews, he doesn't act so creepy. As "creepy" as he tries to be during those interviews, it is all bad acting on his part; giving the interviewer and viewers what he thinks they want to see.

05-17-2004, 09:13 AM
LOL. HG, I was talking about our very own minions

LtBillsFan66
05-17-2004, 09:18 AM
Originally posted by –
LOL. HG, I was talking about our very own minions

I've noticed a marked decline in minion activity lately. It's a breath of fresh air.

Valerie
05-17-2004, 09:18 AM
What I want to know is can anyone go and visit any prisoner in jail? I wonder how many people go see Manson. In a way, I bet it would be extremely interesting to sit down and talk to him.

05-17-2004, 09:29 AM
Oh man, it's bad enough that you're like 48 years old and talk to your cats, now you want to get into a prison romance.

LtBillsFan66
05-17-2004, 09:30 AM
:rofl:

LtBillsFan66
05-17-2004, 09:30 AM
She want to compare notes. :D

helmetguy
05-17-2004, 09:33 AM
Originally posted by Valerie
What I want to know is can anyone go and visit any prisoner in jail? I wonder how many people go see Manson. In a way, I bet it would be extremely interesting to sit down and talk to him.

It all depends on the prison and who the prisoner is. In most cases, it is limited to immediate family and "significant others." From what I understand, Manson gets a ton of mail, however; mostly from curiosity seekers.

According to either Robert Ressler or John Douglas (formerly of the FBI's Behavioral Science Unit), Manson's "mystique" relies mostly on ignorance and naivete. They said that, once Manson recognizes that one won't get sucked in by his antics and philosophical double-speak, he's nothing more than a fairly bright-but highly uneducated-con man.

Valerie
05-17-2004, 09:38 AM
Thanks, Helmet! :)

He definitely has a mystique about him. While a part of me is intrigued by him, another part is terrified of him. It's amazing what he convinced people to do for him and how he never took a life himself.

Ebenezer
05-17-2004, 09:41 AM
Originally posted by Valerie
He definitely has a mystique about him.

mystique? He should be lined up and hit by a Mystique...

05-17-2004, 09:47 AM
I should grow a beard and say I'm Jesus. I'd get more chicks, or at least running gonorrhea.

Ebenezer
05-17-2004, 09:50 AM
This is a song Charles Manson stole from the Beatles...we're stealing it back...

helmetguy
05-17-2004, 09:53 AM
Originally posted by Valerie
Thanks, Helmet! :)

He definitely has a mystique about him. While a part of me is intrigued by him, another part is terrified of him. It's amazing what he convinced people to do for him and how he never took a life himself.

There's no evidence that he actually participated in any murders;save for his tying up the LaBiancas and severing Gary Hinman's ear. The "mystique" that has grown around him, though, is primarily media born and propagated. As I mentioned earlier, the murders themselves were particularly grusome, and the trial sensational. The bizarre "Helter Skelter" motive was the biggest piece of circumstantial evidence that led to his conviction for murder. His antics in the courtroom-in front of the jury-were probably more than enough to get him convicted on the conspiracy counts. They needed a conviction for murder in order to argue for the death penalty, though.

Valerie
05-17-2004, 09:56 AM
According to the movie, Manson got his messages/inspiration from the Beatles and the Bible. And, he really thinks he is Jesus. I don't know how anyone could believe he was Jesus considering Jesus was not a violent man. And, he didn't preach death and murder.

LtBillsFan66
05-17-2004, 09:59 AM
Silly them for believing Manson was Jesus.

Earthquake Enyart
05-17-2004, 10:01 AM
The guy is a psycho. Why anyone would want to talk to this guy is beyond me.

05-17-2004, 10:01 AM
She just wants to **** Dennis Wilson.

Valerie
05-17-2004, 10:04 AM
The criminal mind facinates me, Earthquake. While I was studying criminal justice in college, the one thing that always interested me was criminal psychology. What makes them tick.

Earthquake Enyart
05-17-2004, 10:06 AM
Originally posted by Valerie
The criminal mind facinates me, Earthquake. While I was studying criminal justice in college, the one thing that always interested me was criminal psychology. What makes them tick.

It disgusts me. :down:

Valerie
05-17-2004, 10:09 AM
I'm not saying I agree with criminals. I would just like to know why they think the way they do. And what happened to them to make them the way they are. A lot of criminals are very intelligent people. Look at Ted Bundy. The guy was extremely intelligent but he was a serial killer. Why? What was off in his head that he became a killer instead of the attorney/politician he was on track to become?

Ebenezer
05-17-2004, 10:12 AM
Originally posted by Valerie
The criminal mind facinates me, Earthquake. While I was studying criminal justice in college, the one thing that always interested me was criminal psychology. What makes them tick.

I'm sorry...the good hearted Christian in me stops right here...society pays up the arse to educate (or try to educate folks)...you don't take advantage of it you lose...you commit or perpetrate crimes like this and you lose...the US should buy an island or small country or Wyoming...make it a self-sufficient prison and send them there...never to be heard from by society or bother society again...

Earthquake Enyart
05-17-2004, 10:14 AM
Originally posted by Valerie
I'm not saying I agree with criminals. I would just like to know why they think the way they do. And what happened to them to make them the way they are. A lot of criminals are very intelligent people. Look at Ted Bundy. The guy was extremely intelligent but he was a serial killer. Why? What was off in his head that he became a killer instead of the attorney/politician he was on track to become?

I don't care. Once he is a convicted killer, we shouldn't spend one more dime or second of time on him.

Ebenezer
05-17-2004, 10:16 AM
Originally posted by Ebenezer
...the US should buy an island or small country or Wyoming...make it a self-sufficient prison and send them there...never to be heard from by society or bother society again...


Originally posted by Earthquake Enyart
I don't care. Once he is a convicted killer, we shouldn't spend one more dime or second of time on him.

:hi5:...is this the second time today we've agreed...:eek:

Dozerdog
05-17-2004, 10:17 AM
Why is he still alive? We spend an average of $35,000 per prisoner in this country per year. His costs are most likely doubled/tripled bercause of his status.

Bush's fry' em up policy in Texas is one of the few policies of his I do support.

Earthquake Enyart
05-17-2004, 10:20 AM
Originally posted by Dozerdog
Why is he still alive? We spend an average of $35,000 per prisoner in this country per year. His costs are most likely doubled/tripled bercause of his status.

Bush's fry' em up policy in Texas is one of the few policies of his I do support.

California didn't have the death penalty when he was convicted.

Personally, I prefer life in prison. The death penalty is too good for Manson.

Valerie
05-17-2004, 10:20 AM
I thikn a year after Manson was convicted and sentenced to death, California revoked the death penalty.

I agree. I think murderers should be killed. My senior thesis was pro-death penalty. But, I would still like to know what went wrong with these people before we kill them.

Some say the reason Ted Bundy went to Florida from Washington for his last killing spree was because Florida had the dealth penalty and Washington didn't.

Ebenezer
05-17-2004, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by Valerie
I thikn a year after Manson was convicted and sentenced to death, California revoked the death penalty.

I agree. I think murderers should be killed. My senior thesis was pro-death penalty. But, I would still like to know what went wrong with these people before we kill them.

Some say the reason Ted Bundy went to Florida from Washington for his last killing spree was because Florida had the dealth penalty and Washington didn't.

another freakazoid the taxpayer spent too much money on...

LtBillsFan66
05-17-2004, 10:26 AM
I'm all for Eb's proposal. There needs to be an overhaul of the prison system. I saw a special on one of the cable news channels over the weekend about parole. How sex offenders get out and offend again. I say make a jail just for them, and put them there forever. There should be separate jails for separate crimes. Violent, sexual, etc.

Ebenezer
05-17-2004, 10:28 AM
Originally posted by billsfanone
I'm all for Eb's proposal. There needs to be an overhaul of the prison system. I saw a special on one of the cable news channels over the weekend about parole. How sex offenders get out and offend again. I say make a jail just for them, and put them there forever. There should be separate jails for separate crimes. Violent, sexual, etc.

the killers could all kill each other...the rapists could rape each other...what would the lawyers, politicans and accounts do??

Ebenezer
05-17-2004, 10:29 AM
Originally posted by billsfanone
I'm all for Eb's proposal. There needs to be an overhaul of the prison system. I saw a special on one of the cable news channels over the weekend about parole. How sex offenders get out and offend again. I say make a jail just for them, and put them there forever. There should be separate jails for separate crimes. Violent, sexual, etc.

3 squares a day, work out room, cable and congigal visits?? only in America...

LtBillsFan66
05-17-2004, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by Ebenezer
the killers could all kill each other...the rapists could rape each other...what would the lawyers, politicans and accounts do??

Sue eachother? :idunno:

:D

Valerie
05-17-2004, 11:52 AM
Question.....

I don't know if this was put in for the movie effect or it there was some truth to it, but the understanding I got was that Charles Manson wrote some songs that the Beach Boys edited and used on their albums. Is this true? And, if so, what songs?

LtBillsFan66
05-17-2004, 11:53 AM
It's probably not true.

05-17-2004, 12:00 PM
Dennis Wilson used to hang out at the Manson Ranch, mostly to get laid.

http://www.denniswilsonforever.com/manson.html


Never Learn Not To Love Lyrics
1968




Cease to resist, come on say you love me
Give up your world, come on and be with me
I'm your kind, I'm your kind, and I see

Come on come on, ooo I love you pretty girl
My life is yours, and you can have my world
I'm your kind, I'm your kind, and I see

Never had a lesson I ever learned
I know I could never learn not to love you
Come in now closer
Come in closer closer closer ahhhh

Submission is a gift, give it to your lover
Love and understanding is for one another
I'm your kind, I'm your kind, and I see

Never had a lesson I ever learned
I know I could never learn not to love you
Come in now closer
Come in closer come in closer ahhhh

Ahhh-ahhh-ahhh-ahhh-ahhhhhh
Ahhh-ahhh-ahhh-ahhh-ahhhhhh









Writer, lead vocal: Dennis Wilson/Charles Manson uncredited lyricist
Recorded: September 11, 1968
Length: 2:31
Discography:
- The Beach Boys (The 20/20 Album)

This song was originally written by Charles Manson and titled "Cease To Exist". Dennis Wilson made some minor lyrical changes to it, which supposedly upset Manson greatly.

Valerie
05-17-2004, 12:01 PM
I don't know. Supposedly Manson was friendly with one of the Wilson brothers and even lived in his house with him. According to the movie, Manson even met the producer at the Beach Boys studio, And that's how poor Sharon Tate ended up dead. The producer owned the house before she did and Manson went there originally looking to kill the producer not Tate.

Valerie
05-17-2004, 12:04 PM
Thanks, Doug. I've never heard that song before.

Yeah, the movie made it look that Manson was furious with Wilson for changing the lyrics and then not giving him royalties. The movie even went as far as to show Manson showing up at Wilson's house and throwing a bullet at him and then telling him he was lucky to be alive.

Like I said earlier, I don't know anything about Manson or the murders, just what I've seen on television.

Ebenezer
05-17-2004, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by Valerie
Like I said earlier, I don't know anything about Manson or the murders, just what I've seen on television.

you're getting a little infatuated with the subject though...

05-17-2004, 12:10 PM
Her freudian slip is showing. She wants to **** 'jesus.'

R. Rich
05-17-2004, 12:11 PM
I agree. Being interested in something is one thing, wanting to go visit a convicted killer is a bit much.

Valerie
05-17-2004, 12:11 PM
No. It just piqued my curiosity. A lot of the books and movies I watch are real crime. My major was criminal justice, Eb. It's natural that this sort of thing would interest me. Anyway, a girl in my office read Helter Skelter a few months ago and a book on Ted Bundy and we've been talking about both ever since.

helmetguy
05-17-2004, 12:15 PM
As far as Manson is concerned, he IS pretty much a product of "the system," so to speak. He spent over half of his life in institutions before he was even connected to the Tate-LaBianca-Hinman cases. This is a guy who, at a young age, was used as barter by his mother to buy a pitcher of beer. When he hit Haight-Ashbury in 1967, he was an older guy amongst a bevy of teenaged party-girls. He used his well honed prison con games on them to get food, to get drugs, and to get laid. Except for possibly Mary Brunner, most of the girls were pretty ditsy. They bought the double-speak ("Love is Love!" "Everybody is everybody," etc.) because it sounded "profound," or "really deep...heavy, Man!" All Manson was doing was trying to keep a good thing going. He kept telling them what they wanted to hear, and they kept on giving him food, drugs, and sex. It beat prison, and he didn't have to do much of anything at all to get what he wanted, when he wanted it. He often claimed, too, that he was "anything you want me to be." That's why, to some, he was Jesus Christ; to others, the Devil. Whatever role he thought you wanted him to play, he played it. Again, the common "mystique" that Manson is some "mephistphilian guru" (as Bugliosi called him at trial) has been propagated through the media. Even today, he thrives on the attention he gets from the letters and interviews; attention that usually accompanies the parole hearings for him and the other convicted followers. Those who clung to him so long ago (save for Lynette Fromme) have largely distanced themselves from him as much as possible. Linda Kasabian has even changed her name and pretty much dropped out of sight.




Originally posted by Valerie
I thikn a year after Manson was convicted and sentenced to death, California revoked the death penalty.

I agree. I think murderers should be killed. My senior thesis was pro-death penalty. But, I would still like to know what went wrong with these people before we kill them.

Some say the reason Ted Bundy went to Florida from Washington for his last killing spree was because Florida had the dealth penalty and Washington didn't.

You're right, Valerie. In 1972, there was a nationwide moratorium on executions, as a result of a Supreme Court decision in Furman v. Georgia. That moratorium was lifted following their Decision in Gregg v. Georgia (I'll soare you the particulars). Because of "Furman" all death sentences were commuted to life, but with the possibility of parole. Everything Manson did after being arrested for the murders was to save his scruufy hide. He didn't want to die, but had no problem going back to prison. In Bundy's case, he wasn't thrilled with prison, let alone execution. Going to Florida was just a way to get as far away from Washington and Colorado as he possibly could. But, because he too was a sociopath with a huge ego, he figured he was pretty much invincible. He got complacent and careless. I agree too, Valerie, that these cases are interesting, but probably for a completely different reason. The more we know about these types, and the more we find they have in common, the better to track down other of their ilk. Also, it goes a long way toward blowing up an insanity defense.

Ebenezer
05-17-2004, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by Valerie
No. It just piqued my curiosity. A lot of the books and movies I watch are real crime. My major was criminal justice, Eb.

were you going to be a cop or a lawyer?

05-17-2004, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by helmetguy
Those who clung to him so long ago (save for Lynette Fromme) have largely distanced themselves from him as much as possible.

I always wondered why her nickname was 'squeaky' :huh:

Valerie
05-17-2004, 12:29 PM
Once again, thanks, Helmet.

Oh, I really don't think that half the criminals are "insane." I think a lot of them are very intelligent people who try to manipulate the system.


Originally posted by Ebenezer were you going to be a cop or a lawyer?
Never a cop. Iím afraid of guns. I thought about lawyer, but I'm too shy when it comes to speaking in front of people and corporate law is boring.

I didn't know what I wanted to do with my degree, still don't, all I knew at the time was crime and justice fascinated me. It still does.

Erik vonDarkmoor
05-17-2004, 12:30 PM
Charlie don't surf.

LtBillsFan66
05-17-2004, 12:33 PM
I think the dumb bitches who followed Manson should have been punished more.

05-17-2004, 12:35 PM
The tragic, unseen down side of minionization

Ebenezer
05-17-2004, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by Valerie
Never a cop. Iím afraid of guns.

what about handcuffs?

BAM
05-17-2004, 12:38 PM
:naughty:

yes Valerie, how bout 'em?

Valerie
05-17-2004, 01:16 PM
Nope. Handcuffs don't scare me as long as I'm not the one wearing them! :up:

Ebenezer
05-17-2004, 01:22 PM
Originally posted by Valerie
Nope. Handcuffs don't scare me as long as I'm not the one wearing them! :up:

what about other types of restraints...:naughty: