SCOUT'S HONOR: 2004 Comeback Watch

[The Spaz]

<b>Drew Bledsoe, Buffalo Bills</b>

The fall guy around the fallout of the Bills' offense last season. I expect Bledsoe to return to form this season. He remains one of the best pure passing quarterbacks in the NFL. A healthy Eric Moulds and the addition of rookie Lee Evans will create more downfield opportunities for Bledsoe to air the ball out. A commitment to balance with the arrival of Mike Murlarkey will also provide better support for Bledsoe.

http://www.foxsports.com/content/view?contentId=2438168

[Tatonka]

return to what form?

[Mr. Cynical]

Originally posted by Tatonka
return to what form?

:lol:

The $8.5M question. :idunno:

[STAMPY]

Originally posted by Mr. Cynical
:lol:

The $8.5M question. :idunno:


Originally posted by Tatonka
return to what form?

These responses never shock me

[mybills]

Originally posted by Tatonka
return to what form?

Can't be cement.

[Kramer]

I'm confused. Drew has not been in good form for a couple of years now. Are you referring to about 5 years ago?

[The Spaz]

My guess would be his Pro Bowl year 2 years ago.:idunno:

[Kramer]

Originally posted by The Spaz
My guess would be his Pro Bowl year 2 years ago.:idunno:

I'd be great if he could hold that form for 16 games.

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by Kramer
I'd be great if he could hold that form for 16 games.

I hope he does too. Hopefully with this coaching staff they will be able to make adjustments and not give stale play calling to allow other teams to figure us out half way through the year.

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by lordofgun
I don't hold out a lot of hope that a rookie WR is gonna revive Drew. I Hope I'm wrong.

Well then have faith in our new coaching staff.:up:

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by The Spaz
My guess would be his Pro Bowl year 2 years ago.:idunno:

you mean the first 6 games of 2 years ago? :snicker:

let us not forget that during that "pro bowl" season.. he finished the last 10 games of the season with 10 tds and 10INT to go with 7 Fumbles.

he returning to THAT form is not really exciting.

:ontome:

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by Tatonka
you mean the first 6 games of 2 years ago? :snicker:

let us not forget that during that "pro bowl" season.. he finished the last 10 games of the season with 10 tds and 10INT to go with 7 Fumbles.

he returning to THAT form is not really exciting.

:ontome:

You guys say it's hard to bash Drew becuase he's a good guy and yet you guys do it almost everyday, hilarious.:snicker: Seriously though like I have stated this is the year (for me at least) that will tell me if he can lead this team.

[Mr. Miyagi]

Whatever happened to your Drew Truce Tatonka? :shakeno:

[eyedog]

They're still upset the Bills couldn't draft Rivers.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by Mr. Miyagi
Whatever happened to your Drew Truce Tatonka? :shakeno:

well.. i stepped down after the draft.. but give me a break.. i rarely say anything about the guy.. i have made maybe 3 comments in the last month.

i just dont like misperceptions that drew has played well as a bill for anything more than a very short time at the beginning of his stay here.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by eyedog
They're still upset the Bills couldn't draft Rivers.

i would have loved rivers.. but i am completely happy with losman.. no question about that.

[buffmaniac]

Give me a break. Drew had 4 bad games in 2002 and everyone wants to just pretend like that season did not happen. Drew played bad against NE, NY, SD, and GB and in the rest of games Drew played fine.

I mean if I take out those 4 bad games and then look at Drew's stats for other 12 games:

457 293 64.1% 3564yds 297yds/gm 22TDs 7INTs 99QB rating

His numbers are outstanding.

And here some other info:
Drew's QB rating in the last 8 games of 02:
80.0 81.4 52.7 132.6 61.6 43.4 41.3 105.7

Brady's QB rating in the last 8 games of 01:
78.9 70.8 143.9 93.3 61.3 63.6 91.6 58.6

Brady's QB rating in the last 8 games of 02:
92.1 76.0 112.3 67.4 101.3 47.2 57.6 68.5

Brady's second halves in 01 and 02 were pretty poor as well but no one complained.

And even during Brady's great season last year he still had 4 bad games:
Games QB rating
09/07 Buffalo 22.5
10/12 New York 56.1
11/16 Dallas 64.8
12/07 Miami 67.0

Or how about this:
Here are 7 games from Drew's season last year:
New England 28 17 60.7 230 1 1 83.9
Jacksonville 25 19 76.0 314 2 0 144.2
Philadelphia 43 27 62.8 296 1 0 90.8
Cincinnati 35 19 54.3 211 1 0 82.0
Washington 26 19 73.1 244 1 1 98.9
New York 29 19 65.5 252 2 0 115.9
Tennessee 30 17 56.7 168 2 0 94.9

Drew played pretty well in these games. So now does that mean Drew only had a bad half year last season. Of course not but that is what people are doing with Drew's season in 02.

I'm just tired of people writing off Drew's entire 2002 season because he had 4 bad games at the end of the year. I mean Drew went to the Pro Bowl and set 10 franchise records. And he did all this while having a poor defense and a terrible offensive coordinator.

[tomdonahoe]

I think the Bills will look at Drew as a guy who doesn't have to win the game for us but simply has to not lose the game for us. We have a good defense and what should be a solid productive, move the chains type running game so I think the idea is to let Drew hand the ball off and then work out of a lot of play action. The play action last year was on a milk carton thank to Gilbride.

If we can run the ball and stop the run, which I think we will be able to, then I think we can win about 10 or 11 games and make the playoffs. If Drew is dropping back 30+ times a game then this team is not playing to its strengths.

[Goobylal]

...the sound of crickets. Nice post buffmaniac. I'm going to reference your post, if you don't mind.

[eyedog]

Like i keep saying, you give Drew an average o-line, an average coaching staff, a healthy Moulds, and a speed receiver he will to just fine. I think he will get all of those this year, we'll see. I'm still have some concerns about the o-line though.

[tomdonahoe]

I agree about the o-line. The FS spot and the o-line are the biggest concerns going into the season. The left guard and center positions are going to be a question mark going into the season until they can prove that they can stop the bull rush. Teague is average at center and who ever starts at LG will be average also.

I think eventually(a couple seasons of so) you will see the Bills move Mike Williams to guard just like Arizona moved Leonard Davis.
I'm not saying the Bills should do this but what do you guys think of this lineup for the o-line?

Jennings-LT Williams-LG Teague-C Villarrial-RG Price-RT

Is this a better line then our current one?

[pats-were-right]

Originally posted by buffmaniac
Give me a break. Drew had 4 bad games in 2002 and everyone wants to just pretend like that season did not happen. Drew played bad against NE, NY, SD, and GB and in the rest of games Drew played fine.

I mean if I take out those 4 bad games and then look at Drew's stats for other 12 games:

457 293 64.1% 3564yds 297yds/gm 22TDs 7INTs 99QB rating

His numbers are outstanding.

And here some other info:
Drew's QB rating in the last 8 games of 02:
80.0 81.4 52.7 132.6 61.6 43.4 41.3 105.7

Brady's QB rating in the last 8 games of 01:
78.9 70.8 143.9 93.3 61.3 63.6 91.6 58.6

Brady's QB rating in the last 8 games of 02:
92.1 76.0 112.3 67.4 101.3 47.2 57.6 68.5

Brady's second halves in 01 and 02 were pretty poor as well but no one complained.

And even during Brady's great season last year he still had 4 bad games:
Games QB rating
09/07 Buffalo 22.5
10/12 New York 56.1
11/16 Dallas 64.8
12/07 Miami 67.0

Or how about this:
Here are 7 games from Drew's season last year:
New England 28 17 60.7 230 1 1 83.9
Jacksonville 25 19 76.0 314 2 0 144.2
Philadelphia 43 27 62.8 296 1 0 90.8
Cincinnati 35 19 54.3 211 1 0 82.0
Washington 26 19 73.1 244 1 1 98.9
New York 29 19 65.5 252 2 0 115.9
Tennessee 30 17 56.7 168 2 0 94.9

Drew played pretty well in these games. So now does that mean Drew only had a bad half year last season. Of course not but that is what people are doing with Drew's season in 02.

I'm just tired of people writing off Drew's entire 2002 season because he had 4 bad games at the end of the year. I mean Drew went to the Pro Bowl and set 10 franchise records. And he did all this while having a poor defense and a terrible offensive coordinator.

Good effort on this post, but I would add the following provisos:

1. Generally, you can't hunt and peck through a season to pull out good games versus bad. The only way to fairly assess a season is to look at the body of work as a whole.

2. The hunting and pecking DOES however emphasize the "good versus bad teams" / "bad versus good teams" distinction that others have illustrated.

2. Once again, picking on the "horrible" OC, he's the same guy that was there the first half of 2002 and also the same guy for whom praise was heaped upon for "resurrecting" Bledsoe's career.

3. If you take the other route and say that Gilbride failed to adjust after the first half of 2002, it fails to explain why Bledsoe has a propensity for similar nosedives with other OC's, some of them highly regarded.

[tomdonahoe]

Originally posted by tomdonahoe
I agree about the o-line. The FS spot and the o-line are the biggest concerns going into the season. The left guard and center positions are going to be a question mark going into the season until they can prove that they can stop the bull rush. Teague is average at center and who ever starts at LG will be average also.

I think eventually(a couple seasons of so) you will see the Bills move Mike Williams to guard just like Arizona moved Leonard Davis.
I'm not saying the Bills should do this but what do you guys think of this lineup for the o-line?

Jennings-LT Williams-LG Teague-C Villarrial-RG Price-RT

Is this a better line then our current one?

I started a new thread on this because I think it is an intresting question.

[Goobylal]

2. Once again, picking on the &quot;horrible&quot; OC, he's the same guy that was there the first half of 2002 and also the same guy for whom praise was heaped upon for &quot;resurrecting&quot; Bledsoe's career.

3. If you take the other route and say that Gilbride failed to adjust after the first half of 2002, it fails to explain why Bledsoe has a propensity for similar nosedives with other OC's, some of them highly regarded. [/B]
Pardon me for my ignorance, but WHO are these "highly regarded" OC's for whom Bledsoe allegedly played in the past? With the exception of Weis (with whom he played 18 games, most of them with a horrible offense), none of the other candidates were ever head coaching candidates, and if I'm not mistaken, none of them were even OC's after leaving the Pats. I think the closest you can come to "highly regarded" is Ernie Zampese, but he was done when he left the Cowboys, which was just prior to joining the Pats. Also if you look at the talent around Bledsoe for most of his career in NE, he had average talent at best. The best years were 1996-1997 when he had Armstrong, Coates, Martin, and Glenn all together. And the most damning thing about Gilbride is the Bills' 2nd-half slide in 2002.

[ShadowHawk7]

Originally posted by buffmaniac
Give me a break. Drew had 4 bad games in 2002 and everyone wants to just pretend like that season did not happen. Drew played bad against NE, NY, SD, and GB and in the rest of games Drew played fine.

I mean if I take out those 4 bad games and then look at Drew's stats for other 12 games:

457 293 64.1% 3564yds 297yds/gm 22TDs 7INTs 99QB rating

His numbers are outstanding.

And here some other info:
Drew's QB rating in the last 8 games of 02:
80.0 81.4 52.7 132.6 61.6 43.4 41.3 105.7

Brady's QB rating in the last 8 games of 01:
78.9 70.8 143.9 93.3 61.3 63.6 91.6 58.6

Brady's QB rating in the last 8 games of 02:
92.1 76.0 112.3 67.4 101.3 47.2 57.6 68.5

Brady's second halves in 01 and 02 were pretty poor as well but no one complained.

And even during Brady's great season last year he still had 4 bad games:
Games QB rating
09/07 Buffalo 22.5
10/12 New York 56.1
11/16 Dallas 64.8
12/07 Miami 67.0

Or how about this:
Here are 7 games from Drew's season last year:
New England 28 17 60.7 230 1 1 83.9
Jacksonville 25 19 76.0 314 2 0 144.2
Philadelphia 43 27 62.8 296 1 0 90.8
Cincinnati 35 19 54.3 211 1 0 82.0
Washington 26 19 73.1 244 1 1 98.9
New York 29 19 65.5 252 2 0 115.9
Tennessee 30 17 56.7 168 2 0 94.9

Drew played pretty well in these games. So now does that mean Drew only had a bad half year last season. Of course not but that is what people are doing with Drew's season in 02.

I'm just tired of people writing off Drew's entire 2002 season because he had 4 bad games at the end of the year. I mean Drew went to the Pro Bowl and set 10 franchise records. And he did all this while having a poor defense and a terrible offensive coordinator.

Wow, great post. All your points here are very valid and are hard to argue with.

[B-DON]

face it bledsoe lovers drew is a little above average at best now. how much star power does he need around him before he can win? and then when he finally does win a couple he gets all the credit. i dont understand

[Canadian'eh!]

Originally posted by B-DON
face it bledsoe lovers drew is a little above average at best now. how much star power does he need around him before he can win? and then when he finally does win a couple he gets all the credit. i dont understand


tell me one QB that does well (and stays healthy) with a bad oline, little to no recievers (moulds was hurt), and a OC that won't play to his teams strengths?

[Canadian'eh!]

Originally posted by buffmaniac
Give me a break. Drew had 4 bad games in 2002 and everyone wants to just pretend like that season did not happen. Drew played bad against NE, NY, SD, and GB and in the rest of games Drew played fine.

I mean if I take out those 4 bad games and then look at Drew's stats for other 12 games:

457 293 64.1% 3564yds 297yds/gm 22TDs 7INTs 99QB rating

His numbers are outstanding.

And here some other info:
Drew's QB rating in the last 8 games of 02:
80.0 81.4 52.7 132.6 61.6 43.4 41.3 105.7

Brady's QB rating in the last 8 games of 01:
78.9 70.8 143.9 93.3 61.3 63.6 91.6 58.6

Brady's QB rating in the last 8 games of 02:
92.1 76.0 112.3 67.4 101.3 47.2 57.6 68.5

Brady's second halves in 01 and 02 were pretty poor as well but no one complained.

And even during Brady's great season last year he still had 4 bad games:
Games QB rating
09/07 Buffalo 22.5
10/12 New York 56.1
11/16 Dallas 64.8
12/07 Miami 67.0

Or how about this:
Here are 7 games from Drew's season last year:
New England 28 17 60.7 230 1 1 83.9
Jacksonville 25 19 76.0 314 2 0 144.2
Philadelphia 43 27 62.8 296 1 0 90.8
Cincinnati 35 19 54.3 211 1 0 82.0
Washington 26 19 73.1 244 1 1 98.9
New York 29 19 65.5 252 2 0 115.9
Tennessee 30 17 56.7 168 2 0 94.9

Drew played pretty well in these games. So now does that mean Drew only had a bad half year last season. Of course not but that is what people are doing with Drew's season in 02.

I'm just tired of people writing off Drew's entire 2002 season because he had 4 bad games at the end of the year. I mean Drew went to the Pro Bowl and set 10 franchise records. And he did all this while having a poor defense and a terrible offensive coordinator.

Great points.... I just wanted to add some intangibles.

I can give you a plethera of reasons our Offense struggled last year. but it's not about that.

The last games of 02? C'mon. we had to pass and try to score on EVERY DRIVE our D was so god awful.... opposing D's were T'ing off on us like it was a convention. How can you not expect Our offense to struggle against teams when they knew we had no choice but to try to go for it on every play.

As for Drew and Weis... that's a horrible fit. Drew is a gunslinger for good or bad and you can't have him throwing 5 yard screens all day. square peg - round hole.

[pats-were-right]

Originally posted by Goobylal

Pardon me for my ignorance, but WHO are these &quot;highly regarded&quot; OC's for whom Bledsoe allegedly played in the past? With the exception of Weis (with whom he played 18 games, most of them with a horrible offense), none of the other candidates were ever head coaching candidates, and if I'm not mistaken, none of them were even OC's after leaving the Pats. I think the closest you can come to &quot;highly regarded&quot; is Ernie Zampese, but he was done when he left the Cowboys, which was just prior to joining the Pats. Also if you look at the talent around Bledsoe for most of his career in NE, he had average talent at best. The best years were 1996-1997 when he had Armstrong, Coates, Martin, and Glenn all together. And the most damning thing about Gilbride is the Bills' 2nd-half slide in 2002.


You're forgetting about 1993 through 1996 when he played under Weis.

Howd' the other guy do with the "average talent" in '01?

[justasportsfan]

Originally posted by buffmaniac
Give me a break. Drew had 4 bad games in 2002 and everyone wants to just pretend like that season did not happen. Drew played bad against NE, NY, SD, and GB and in the rest of games Drew played fine.

I mean if I take out those 4 bad games and then look at Drew's stats for other 12 games:

457 293 64.1% 3564yds 297yds/gm 22TDs 7INTs 99QB rating

His numbers are outstanding.

And here some other info:
Drew's QB rating in the last 8 games of 02:
80.0 81.4 52.7 132.6 61.6 43.4 41.3 105.7

Brady's QB rating in the last 8 games of 01:
78.9 70.8 143.9 93.3 61.3 63.6 91.6 58.6

Brady's QB rating in the last 8 games of 02:
92.1 76.0 112.3 67.4 101.3 47.2 57.6 68.5

Brady's second halves in 01 and 02 were pretty poor as well but no one complained.

And even during Brady's great season last year he still had 4 bad games:
Games QB rating
09/07 Buffalo 22.5
10/12 New York 56.1
11/16 Dallas 64.8
12/07 Miami 67.0

Or how about this:
Here are 7 games from Drew's season last year:
New England 28 17 60.7 230 1 1 83.9
Jacksonville 25 19 76.0 314 2 0 144.2
Philadelphia 43 27 62.8 296 1 0 90.8
Cincinnati 35 19 54.3 211 1 0 82.0
Washington 26 19 73.1 244 1 1 98.9
New York 29 19 65.5 252 2 0 115.9
Tennessee 30 17 56.7 168 2 0 94.9

Drew played pretty well in these games. So now does that mean Drew only had a bad half year last season. Of course not but that is what people are doing with Drew's season in 02.

I'm just tired of people writing off Drew's entire 2002 season because he had 4 bad games at the end of the year. I mean Drew went to the Pro Bowl and set 10 franchise records. And he did all this while having a poor defense and a terrible offensive coordinator. Wys would've picked these stats apart to make it fit his argument. :idunno:

I for one don't care what he did/didn't do in 2002. If he stinks up the place like he did last season, just as there was a parade of people greeting him when he arrived, there should be one to escort him out too.

I do however believe he'll have an average season to say the least.

[madness]

I believe this year's ground game will open up a good season for DB. I'm not saying he'll have a probowl year, but he'll silence alot of doubters. Again, alot depends on the line, but I'm now worried with McNally at the reigns.

As a side note, I can't think of one pure pocket passer in this league that could have succeeded in KG's OUTDATED offense. The speed by defenses in today's NFL has increased tremendously. With the amount of quick decisions and variables in KG's offense, only "Deep Blue" could process all the info in that time. Quite frankly, I have doubts about Deep Blue's athletic abilities.

[Goobylal]

Originally posted by pats-were-right



You're forgetting about 1993 through 1996 when he played under Weis.
Weis was the Pats' TE coach from 1993-1994, RB coach in 1995, and WR coach in 1996. He only became an OC after joining the Jets. Given his work resurrecting the career of Testaverde and with Brady and the Pats' offense, he's the best OC out there right now.


Howd' the other guy do with the &quot;average talent&quot; in '01?
I was talking mostly about 2000, when the Pats were talentless on offense. In 2001 they added 5-6 new starters on offense (that many players need time to jell) and Bledsoe played well in the Bengals loss and not so well in a loss to the hated rival Jets, and then got injured. Brady as the stats in 2001 showed, wasn't so great in his last 8 games of the season, and outside of end-of-half/game heroics in the playoffs.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by buffmaniac
Give me a break. Drew had 4 bad games in 2002 and everyone wants to just pretend like that season did not happen. Drew played bad against NE, NY, SD, and GB and in the rest of games Drew played fine.

I mean if I take out those 4 bad games and then look at Drew's stats for other 12 games:

457 293 64.1% 3564yds 297yds/gm 22TDs 7INTs 99QB rating

His numbers are outstanding.

And here some other info:
Drew's QB rating in the last 8 games of 02:
80.0 81.4 52.7 132.6 61.6 43.4 41.3 105.7

Brady's QB rating in the last 8 games of 01:
78.9 70.8 143.9 93.3 61.3 63.6 91.6 58.6

Brady's QB rating in the last 8 games of 02:
92.1 76.0 112.3 67.4 101.3 47.2 57.6 68.5

Brady's second halves in 01 and 02 were pretty poor as well but no one complained.

And even during Brady's great season last year he still had 4 bad games:
Games QB rating
09/07 Buffalo 22.5
10/12 New York 56.1
11/16 Dallas 64.8
12/07 Miami 67.0

Or how about this:
Here are 7 games from Drew's season last year:
New England 28 17 60.7 230 1 1 83.9
Jacksonville 25 19 76.0 314 2 0 144.2
Philadelphia 43 27 62.8 296 1 0 90.8
Cincinnati 35 19 54.3 211 1 0 82.0
Washington 26 19 73.1 244 1 1 98.9
New York 29 19 65.5 252 2 0 115.9
Tennessee 30 17 56.7 168 2 0 94.9

Drew played pretty well in these games. So now does that mean Drew only had a bad half year last season. Of course not but that is what people are doing with Drew's season in 02.

I'm just tired of people writing off Drew's entire 2002 season because he had 4 bad games at the end of the year. I mean Drew went to the Pro Bowl and set 10 franchise records. And he did all this while having a poor defense and a terrible offensive coordinator.

so how do you explain the last 10 games of 2002?

10tds, 10 ints, 7 fumbles...

i love the bad games you listed.. why list the jets game to open the season? even though it was his 2 ints that cost us points. why list the raiders game, in which we were leading and doing well in until bledsoe chucks an int to a rookie cb and costs us the game.. wow.. and these are his "good" games in the first six where he had 14 tds and something like 5 ints.

and you also fail to point out with your elaborate post.. drew blew the big games. the ones we needed to win. NE at his lunch. the jets ate his lunch.. thanks to a blizzard and ray lucas we pulled out 2 wins against the dolphins.. he blew it against he chiefs by chucking a last minute INT because mr. glory decided to go for the big TD instead of getting us into field goal range.. when we are on the 40 yard line with 4 minutes left. his great game against green bay got us no points.. none.. the defense allowed 10 points against green bay.. and we just needed drew to do something.. he blew it again.. drew did nothing but beat the **** out of sorry ass defenses and weak teams in 2002. and we didnt make the playoffs. period. end of story.

your analysis is so tainted... you can take out his worst 4 games and his numbers look great.. guess what.. if i take out his best 4 games, his numbers look like dog crap.

why dont you run those figures.

:rolleyes:

[buffmaniac]

Originally posted by Tatonka
so how do you explain the last 10 games of 2002?

10tds, 10 ints, 7 fumbles...

i love the bad games you listed.. why list the jets game to open the season? even though it was his 2 ints that cost us points. why list the raiders game, in which we were leading and doing well in until bledsoe chucks an int to a rookie cb and costs us the game.. wow.. and these are his "good" games in the first six where he had 14 tds and something like 5 ints.

and you also fail to point out with your elaborate post.. drew blew the big games. the ones we needed to win. NE at his lunch. the jets ate his lunch.. thanks to a blizzard and ray lucas we pulled out 2 wins against the dolphins.. he blew it against he chiefs by chucking a last minute INT because mr. glory decided to go for the big TD instead of getting us into field goal range.. when we are on the 40 yard line with 4 minutes left. his great game against green bay got us no points.. none.. the defense allowed 10 points against green bay.. and we just needed drew to do something.. he blew it again.. drew did nothing but beat the **** out of sorry ass defenses and weak teams in 2002. and we didnt make the playoffs. period. end of story.

your analysis is so tainted... you can take out his worst 4 games and his numbers look great.. guess what.. if i take out his best 4 games, his numbers look like dog crap.

why dont you run those figures.

:rolleyes:

No lets not take out any games:
2002 16 610 375 61.5% 4359 24 15 86.0

Looking at the whole season Drew still had a very good year.

You seem to like to blame Drew for everything. You seem to forget that this is a team game. Teams win and lose games not individual players. I mean wouldn't you say that the fact our STs gave up 2 kick returns for TDs had something to do with our opening day loss to the Jets. Or is that Drew's fault too? Did you watch the defense play in 2002 either? The defense stunk for most that year except for a few games at the end of the year. I mean they couldn't stop anybody for most of the year. I don't think that helped us win any games. I mean the way our Defense played our offense probably felt like they had to score everytime they had the ball. If the defense would have played better, we probably would have been in the playoffs.

Drew was not the reason we did not make playoffs in 2002. Our team specifically on defense was not good enough that year. So when Drew returns to form this year with the defense we have now we should be in very good shape. You'll see

[pats-were-right]

You seem to like to blame Drew for everything. You seem to forget that this is a team game. Teams win and lose games not individual players.

Law of averages. For every loss in which the QB plays well there should be a corresponding win in which he plays lousy. The "it's a team game" argument to justify either screw ups or losses can only justify so much.

[buffmaniac]

Originally posted by pats-were-right
Law of averages. For every loss in which the QB plays well there should be a corresponding win in which he plays lousy. The "it's a team game" argument to justify either screw ups or losses can only justify so much.

Its a simple fact my friend. Football is a team game. Individual players do not win or lose games. In 2002 Bledsoe played well enough for us to make the playoffs. Our defense on the other hand did not.

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by buffmaniac
Its a simple fact my friend. Football is a team game. Individual players do not win or lose games. In 2002 Bledsoe played well enough for us to make the playoffs. Our defense on the other hand did not.

See what you have done, you have awoken the natives?!:snicker:

[The_Philster]

Originally posted by The Spaz
Well then have faith in our new coaching staff.:up:
Definitely...they turned Kordell around for a season and only a :coocoo: could really think Kordell is better.

Originally posted by Canadian'eh!
tell me one QB that does well (and stays healthy) with a bad oline, little to no recievers (moulds was hurt), and a OC that won't play to his teams strengths? *crickets chirping* You'll be waiting a long time for an answer to that one.


Originally posted by buffmaniac
Its a simple fact my friend. Football is a team game. Individual players do not win or lose games. In 2002 Bledsoe played well enough for us to make the playoffs. Our defense on the other hand did not. :shakeno: Quit using facts...only confuses people. ;)

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by buffmaniac
No lets not take out any games:
2002 16 610 375 61.5% 4359 24 15 86.0

Looking at the whole season Drew still had a very good year.

You seem to like to blame Drew for everything. You seem to forget that this is a team game. Teams win and lose games not individual players. I mean wouldn't you say that the fact our STs gave up 2 kick returns for TDs had something to do with our opening day loss to the Jets. Or is that Drew's fault too? Did you watch the defense play in 2002 either? The defense stunk for most that year except for a few games at the end of the year. I mean they couldn't stop anybody for most of the year. I don't think that helped us win any games. I mean the way our Defense played our offense probably felt like they had to score everytime they had the ball. If the defense would have played better, we probably would have been in the playoffs.

Drew was not the reason we did not make playoffs in 2002. Our team specifically on defense was not good enough that year. So when Drew returns to form this year with the defense we have now we should be in very good shape. You'll see

actually.. look again.. our defense allowed an average of 19 points a game over the last ten games that drew sucked in. the defense played good enough down the stretch to win and get into the playoffs.. they started to show the form that got them to #2 last year.

over the final three games of the 2002 season, they allowed 13, 10 and 9 points..

yeah.. the defense was all to blame.. i love that common misconception.

you can bent stats any way you want them.

bottom line is, i dont have confidence that drew will win the big games.. he never has.. he never will.. he is not a good enough qb..

and canadian'eh.. you point out that no qb could be good in drews situation.. well lets look at the reverse of that..

what qb in the nfl WOULDNT be good w/ a healthy moulds.. peerless price.. a 1500 yard running back and a decent Oline? same goes for this year.. if drew is horrible this year.. with his new speed receiver to go with moulds, reed, and shaw.. two stud rbs.. a revamped oline with a great coach.. a "mastermind" OC.. solid TEs.. then he should be run out of town. period.

the guy has had an excuse his whole career.. and in 3 years out of his 11 year career has he been solid, but never spectacular.. the other 8 years... he was either at the bottom of average or below it.. while being paid like the best qb in the game. it is ridiculous.

[Dozerdog]

Everybody seems to conveniently forget the Dec 2002 weather was a lot worse than average. It made our defense look way better than it was, and it exposed Gillbride's offense as one-dimensional.

Green Bay was the worst- Favre was just as terrible. 40 MPH winds. In the Miami game, the weather was also horrid- but at least it was not windy. Bledsoe played great in that game.
This "Great improved" defense was shredded by Ricky Williams.

[Tatonka]

it was cold in new england last year too.. i guess their defense sucked even though they only allowed 4 points a game.. because it was windy and there was snow?

[Tatonka]

and it still doesnt change the fact that there is no way fans can have confidence that drew can lead this team effectively to a superbowl victory, unless they are basing it on something that he has never done before in an 11 year career.

[Dozerdog]

It's no use.


Even though our awful defense suddenly looks great, and our high powered offense faltered....it's not the weather ...silly me...

[Dozerdog]

Originally posted by Tatonka
and it still doesnt change the fact that there is no way fans can have confidence that drew can lead this team effectively to a superbowl victory, unless they are basing it on something that he has never done before in an 11 year career.


Speaking for all fans?


Like I approach all arguments with this team- i look at the entire picture. Coaches, weapons, schedule, defense, protection... I'm confident this will improve greatly next year.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by Dozerdog
Speaking for all fans?


Like I approach all arguments with this team- i look at the entire picture. Coaches, weapons, schedule, defense, protection... I'm confident this will improve greatly next year.


i am confident alot of things will improve greatly.. drew should even improve.. if he doesnt, he is so incompitent, that it would be laughable... like last year was to watch.

that doesnt change the fact that he has never shown anything to make me believe that he is capable of being anything other than a caretaker until JP is ready.

[Halbert]

With all the weapons on both sides of the ball caretaker would be fine. I think he'll do better than that.

[cordog]

Originally posted by Tatonka

i love the bad games you listed.. why list the jets game to open the season? even though it was his 2 ints that cost us points. why list the raiders game, in which we were leading and doing well in until bledsoe chucks an int to a rookie cb and costs us the game.. wow.. and these are his "good" games in the first six where he had 14 tds and something like 5 ints.


:rolleyes:

How soon we forget he threw the game tying TD in the Jets game, and yes he threw 2 ints in the raiders game, buthe put up 31 against the AFC Champion Raiders. AND WE STILL LOST BY 14!!!! The raiders game was all on the D. The only reason we were in that game was DREW!

[B-DON]

How does any of this change the fact that he cant win against good teams?

[The_Philster]

Originally posted by B-DON
How does any of this change the fact that he cant win against good teams?

I wasn't aware that the QB was the only one playing :scratch:

[pats-were-right]

Originally posted by The_Philster


I wasn't aware that the QB was the only one playing :scratch:

Is that all you have? Really?

Look, Tatonka summed it up best -- three years out of eleven in which he was "pretty good". So either every other team during the eleven years sucked so bad that a very good QB couldn't overcome it, or the guy's tremendously overrated.

There has been one noted example in the NFL over the last ten years of a very good QB putting up varying results due to varying talent - but it wasn't in New England or Buffalo, but a little further west.

[The Spaz]

I look at every year as a clean slate including the players. I can give a rats ass what he did the year before it's what he does this year that matters to me.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by The Spaz
I look at every year as a clean slate including the players. I can give a rats ass what he did the year before it's what he does this year that matters to me.

if you think that trends dont develope over an 11 year career.. and that only bills players were dramatically turn around their play one year, after being average to below average for 11 years....

:homer:

[Goobylal]

Originally posted by pats-were-right


Is that all you have? Really?

Look, Tatonka summed it up best -- three years out of eleven in which he was &quot;pretty good&quot;. So either every other team during the eleven years sucked so bad that a very good QB couldn't overcome it, or the guy's tremendously overrated.

There has been one noted example in the NFL over the last ten years of a very good QB putting up varying results due to varying talent - but it wasn't in New England or Buffalo, but a little further west.
Please. Like I said, Drew's OC's over his career in NE and Buffalo have been garbage, and in the one FULL year he had with a good OC (2000, with Weis) he had garbage around him. Stop talking about 2001 like he played a lot and proved he couldn't run Weis' system, because later in the year he "saved" the Pats' season against Pittsburgh. I think that qualifies as a "big game," even moreso considering the conditions into which he was entering the game (i.e. on the road against the NFL's best defense, after not playing for 4 months and not getting the lion's share of snaps in practice).

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by Goobylal
Please. Like I said, Drew's OC's over his career in NE and Buffalo have been garbage, and in the one FULL year he had with a good OC (2000, with Weis) he had garbage around him. Stop talking about 2001 like he played a lot and proved he couldn't run Weis' system, because later in the year he "saved" the Pats' season against Pittsburgh. I think that qualifies as a "big game," even moreso considering the conditions into which he was entering the game (i.e. on the road against the NFL's best defense, after not playing for 4 months and not getting the lion's share of snaps in practice).


drew was 0-2 and had horrible numbers before getting hurt... then brady comes in.. and wins alot of games.. and puts up great numbers.. it was the same team that drew sucked with the year before... and yeah.. he sure did "save" the pats in the pit game.. he threw one td.. and went 10-21, less than 50%.. and if you watched the game.. he tried to give it away several times.. but pit defenders couldnt hold on to the ball.

i would hardly call what he did "saving"... he threw one td... and played below average... you notice there was no consideration of leaving him in there for the superbowl... his ass got benched as quickly as brady was cleared to play.

poor drew.. horrible OC's all his life.. and horrible talent around him.. man.. that guy just cant get a break can he.. i am sure he is really a 6000 yard passer, who would never throw picks.. if some team woudl just provide him with all the talent in the world and the perfect OC..

:rolleyes:

[pats-were-right]

Please. Like I said, Drew's OC's over his career in NE and Buffalo have been garbage, and in the one FULL year he had with a good OC (2000, with Weis) he had garbage around him..


I mean honestly - it's not like we're talking about Archie Manning here.

and to maintain that his offensive coaching from 1993-96 was not good - please. The offensive staff, including Weis, was primarily the same guys that won two super bowls and went to another.

His ENTIRE CAREER has featured people saying "If only _______".

[pats-were-right]

How soon we forget he threw the game tying TD in the Jets game, and yes he threw 2 ints in the raiders game, buthe put up 31 against the AFC Champion Raiders. AND WE STILL LOST BY 14!!!! The raiders game was all on the D. The only reason we were in that game was DREW!

Lots of teams put up big points against the Raiders that year since THEIR defense was lousy.

Like I said, law of averages....

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by Tatonka
if you think that trends dont develope over an 11 year career.. and that only bills players were dramatically turn around their play one year, after being average to below average for 11 years....

:homer:

Sorry I don't think like that. Every year is new to me thats' how I stay even keeled and don't go out of my mind.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by The Spaz
Sorry I don't think like that. Every year is new to me thats' how I stay even keeled and don't go out of my mind.

it is just football.. you shouldnt need to be a homer to not go out of your mind.

:biggrin:

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by Tatonka
it is just football.. you shouldnt need to be a homer to not go out of your mind.

:biggrin:

Sorry I'm not a homer.:beers:

[cordog]

Originally posted by pats-were-right
Lots of teams put up big points against the Raiders that year since THEIR defense was lousy.

Like I said, law of averages....

Alot of teams put up alot of points against our lousy D, the only reason we were in those games is because of drew. I guess now its not good enough to play well enough to beat the AFC champs and a good team.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by The Spaz
Sorry I'm not a homer.:beers:

well.. if you think that just bills qbs can just all the sudden change their level of play after an 11 year career of average play and poor play.. dont you think that sounds a bit homeristic?

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by cordog
Alot of teams put up alot of points against our lousy D, the only reason we were in those games is because of drew. I guess now its not good enough to play well enough to beat the AFC champs and a good team.


really? because drew had 2 tds and 3 ints as well as a fumble..

2 tds and 4 turnovers is the reason we were in it?

the raiders scored directly on 1 turnover that drew threw to a rookie cb and watched him take it to the house.

2 of his other 3 turnovers led directly to oakland points.

i would say that drew did plenty to help us get blown out in that game.. and his 2 tds, dont cover up for that.

selective memory must be a great thing to have.

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by Tatonka
well.. if you think that just bills qbs can just all the sudden change their level of play after an 11 year career of average play and poor play.. dont you think that sounds a bit homeristic?

No because like I said it's a new year with a new coaching staff. Did anyone think the Panthers would be in the Super Bowl last year? Things change every year for the better or worse. We will see this year.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by The Spaz
No because like I said it's a new year with a new coaching staff. Did anyone think the Panthers would be in the Super Bowl last year? Things change every year for the better or worse. We will see this year.


do you think that the panthers would have been there with rodney peete at qb?

of coarse not.. because pete has showed that he is not a good qb pretty much his whole career.. except for a couple of short stints where he played well..

regardless of the coaches.. drew is what he is. period.

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by Tatonka
do you think that the panthers would have been there with rodney peete at qb?

of coarse not.. because pete has showed that he is not a good qb pretty much his whole career.. except for a couple of short stints where he played well..

regardless of the coaches.. drew is what he is. period.


What is Drew this year? I have no idea yet haven't seen him in pre season or the regular season yet. When the season starts and he's sucking it up then you I will be there next to you bashing him but until then there is no need and if he is tearing it up I will be on the bandwagon.

[buffmaniac]

Originally posted by Tatonka
11 year career of average play and poor play

Come on, man. 11 years of poor play? Well first off counting 2001 against Drew isn't even fair. Drew played 2 games (1 good/1bad) before he got hurt.

In 93 Drew was rookie QB starting on the worst team from the year before. What could you expect from him?

In 94 Drew did have alot of Ints with 27. But still in just his second year Drew led the league in passing yards with 4555yds. He also threw 25TDs He made the Pro Bowl and he had his team in the playoffs. I think that is pretty good for a second year QB.

I would also say that Drew played well in these years as well:
1996 New England 16 623 373 59.9 4086 27 15 83.7
He is 3rd in passing yards. He makes the Pro Bowl and his team goes to the Super Bowl.

1997 New England 16 522 314 60.2 3706 28 15 87.7
He is 4th in passing yards. Again he makes the Pro Bowl. His team make the playoffs where they win 1 game before being knocked out.

1998 New England 14 481 263 54.7 3633 20 14 80.9
He is 6th in passing yards. The team makes the playoffs but Drew was hurt and could not play in the game which the team lost.

2002 Buffalo Bills 16 610 375 61.5 4359 24 15 86.0
Drew is 2nd in passing yards. He makes the Pro Bowl for the 4th time. The team doesn't make the playoffs but not because of Drew.

I just don't understand how you can sit here and say Drew has done nothing in his career.

[pats-were-right]

Originally posted by buffmaniac


Come on, man. 11 years of poor play? Well first off counting 2001 against Drew isn't even fair. Drew played 2 games (1 good/1bad) before he got hurt.

In 93 Drew was rookie QB starting on the worst team from the year before. What could you expect from him?

In 94 Drew did have alot of Ints with 27. But still in just his second year Drew led the league in passing yards with 4555yds. He also threw 25TDs He made the Pro Bowl and he had his team in the playoffs. I think that is pretty good for a second year QB.

I would also say that Drew played well in these years as well:
1996 New England 16 623 373 59.9 4086 27 15 83.7
He is 3rd in passing yards. He makes the Pro Bowl and his team goes to the Super Bowl.

1997 New England 16 522 314 60.2 3706 28 15 87.7
He is 4th in passing yards. Again he makes the Pro Bowl. His team make the playoffs where they win 1 game before being knocked out.

1998 New England 14 481 263 54.7 3633 20 14 80.9
He is 6th in passing yards. The team makes the playoffs but Drew was hurt and could not play in the game which the team lost.

2002 Buffalo Bills 16 610 375 61.5 4359 24 15 86.0
Drew is 2nd in passing yards. He makes the Pro Bowl for the 4th time. The team doesn't make the playoffs but not because of Drew.

I just don't understand how you can sit here and say Drew has done nothing in his career.

He didn't say "11 years of poor play".

'94 and '98 were pretty average seasons overall, highlighted by a couple great games that pushed SOME of the numbers up - so we're left with three "very good seasons" OUT OF eleven possible, exactly what T said.

Fine, give him a mulligan for '01 (although he didn't exactly start on fire). It still leaves three very good seasons and two average-good seasons out of ten, not enough given the accolades and benefit of the doubt he has continuously received.


1997 New England 16 522 314 60.2 3706 28 15 87.7
He is 4th in passing yards. Again he makes the Pro Bowl. His team make the playoffs where they win 1 game before being knocked out.


Ahhh, yes, the 7-6 choke-a-rama against Pittsburgh. Man, the Patriots Defense blew in that game. It's a team sport after all:snicker2:

[buffmaniac]

Originally posted by pats-were-right
Fine, give him a mulligan for '01 (although he didn't exactly start on fire). It still leaves three very good seasons and two average-good seasons out of ten, not enough given the accolades and benefit of the doubt he has continuously received.

And what about Drew's rookie year. I mean how many starting rookie QBs have ever had success. Plus he was the 1st pick in the draft meaning that NE was the worst team in the league the year before. I think I would cut Drew some slack for that season.

So I would say Drew played well in 5 of 9 seasons.

The point here is that Drew has proven that he can have success in this league. With the improvements we have made to the roster and the coaching staff, I think Drew can regain the form he had in those successful years.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by pats-were-right
He didn't say "11 years of poor play".

'94 and '98 were pretty average seasons overall, highlighted by a couple great games that pushed SOME of the numbers up - so we're left with three "very good seasons" OUT OF eleven possible, exactly what T said.

Fine, give him a mulligan for '01 (although he didn't exactly start on fire). It still leaves three very good seasons and two average-good seasons out of ten, not enough given the accolades and benefit of the doubt he has continuously received.



exactly.

[cordog]

Originally posted by Tatonka
really? because drew had 2 tds and 3 ints as well as a fumble..

2 tds and 4 turnovers is the reason we were in it?

the raiders scored directly on 1 turnover that drew threw to a rookie cb and watched him take it to the house.

2 of his other 3 turnovers led directly to oakland points.

i would say that drew did plenty to help us get blown out in that game.. and his 2 tds, dont cover up for that.

selective memory must be a great thing to have.


He also threw for 414 yards and was forcing the ball because he had to score on every drive. You may say my memory is selective but i do remember the Defense gave up 495 yards. Yes one of Bledsoes picks went for a TD i guess we will blame the D for only 41 points. So yes, with out drew i believe we wouldnt have been in that game.

BTW Tonk, your selective memory has him losing a fumble which is not true.

[Goobylal]

Originally posted by Tatonka
drew was 0-2 and had horrible numbers before getting hurt... then brady comes in.. and wins alot of games.. and puts up great numbers.. it was the same team that drew sucked with the year before... and yeah.. he sure did &quot;save&quot; the pats in the pit game.. he threw one td.. and went 10-21, less than 50%.. and if you watched the game.. he tried to give it away several times.. but pit defenders couldnt hold on to the ball.
Ah, the great "almost" argument. Drew leads the Pats to 10 points, which were the margin of victory, regardless of the completion percentage, yet he "almost" lost the game. Who cares? The bottom line is Brady got no points for the team and got injured, and Bledsoe came in and won the game. Sure he had help from his defense and ST's, but so too did Brady in the SB that year. As for Bledsoe's first game against the Bengals that year, his QB rating was higher than Brady's first-ever start against the Colts. Lastly to make the unbelievably wrong statement that the 2001 Pats' offense was "the same" as the 2000 Pats offense shows me you don't know the situation. Take a look at the rosters between 2000 and 2001, not only on offense, but defense as well. Hell just as "the Pats were right." He knows how many starters the Pats added to the team between 2000 and 2001.


i would hardly call what he did &quot;saving&quot;... he threw one td... and played below average... you notice there was no consideration of leaving him in there for the superbowl... his ass got benched as quickly as brady was cleared to play.
Like I said above, Bledsoe led the team to the decisive points and didn't turn the ball over once. Almosts don't count for squat. And why shouldn't Belichick have gone back to Brady once he was cleared? Bledsoe hadn't played much in 4 months. Hardly a valid point.


poor drew.. horrible OC's all his life.. and horrible talent around him.. man.. that guy just cant get a break can he.. i am sure he is really a 6000 yard passer, who would never throw picks.. if some team woudl just provide him with all the talent in the world and the perfect OC..

:rolleyes:
Yeah, poor Drew. He only is on a HOF pace, despite how horrible most of his teams in NE have been,and despite having less-than-average talent for most of his time there.

[cordog]

Originally posted by Goobylal
Ah, the great "almost" argument. Drew leads the Pats to 10 points, which were the margin of victory, regardless of the completion percentage, yet he "almost" lost the game. Who cares? The bottom line is Brady got no points for the team and got injured, and Bledsoe came in and won the game. Sure he had help from his defense and ST's, but so too did Brady in the SB that year. As for Bledsoe's first game against the Bengals that year, his QB rating was higher than Brady's first-ever start against the Colts. Lastly to make the unbelievably wrong statement that the 2001 Pats' offense was "the same" as the 2000 Pats offense shows me you don't know the situation. Take a look at the rosters between 2000 and 2001, not only on offense, but defense as well. Hell just as "the Pats were right." He knows how many starters the Pats added to the team between 2000 and 2001.


Like I said above, Bledsoe led the team to the decisive points and didn't turn the ball over once. Almosts don't count for squat. And why shouldn't Belichick have gone back to Brady once he was cleared? Bledsoe hadn't played much in 4 months. Hardly a valid point.


Yeah, poor Drew. He only is on a HOF pace, despite how horrible most of his teams in NE have been,and despite having less-than-average talent for most of his time there.

great post

[Goobylal]

Originally posted by pats-were-right



I mean honestly - it's not like we're talking about Archie Manning here.

and to maintain that his offensive coaching from 1993-96 was not good - please. The offensive staff, including Weis, was primarily the same guys that won two super bowls and went to another.

His ENTIRE CAREER has featured people saying &quot;If only _______&quot;.
Like I told you, Weis was a positional coach with the Pats from 1993-1996. Chris Palmer was his QB coach during that time. However his OC, you know the guy who designs and calls the plays, was Ray Perkins, a guy so amazing that when Parcells left for Jersey in 1997, he didn't even offer Perkins a job. So Perkins took an OC job with the Raiders the following year, got fired after Gruden took over, and was out of the league after that. Like I said, he's had lousy OC's who were out of the league soon after leaving the Pats.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by cordog
He also threw for 414 yards and was forcing the ball because he had to score on every drive. You may say my memory is selective but i do remember the Defense gave up 495 yards. Yes one of Bledsoes picks went for a TD i guess we will blame the D for only 41 points. So yes, with out drew i believe we wouldnt have been in that game.

BTW Tonk, your selective memory has him losing a fumble which is not true.

yeah the defense was responsible for 41 points.. with 21 of those related to drews turnovers... 7 directly, and 14 indirectly.. drew sucked against a horrible defense.. great.. lots of passing yards.. he has made a living on passing yards.. guess what.. passing yards doesnt count for squat unless you score.


Originally posted by Goobylal
Yeah, poor Drew. He only is on a HOF pace, despite how horrible most of his teams in NE have been,and despite having less-than-average talent for most of his time there.

the ONLY way that drew makes the HOF is if he somehow leads the team to a superbowl victory in his final years.. his numbers are average.. his tds are always low.. his ints are fairly high.. his fumbles are high.. and he hasnt won ****.

HOF.. that is laughable.

[mybills]

Poor Drew..
He's a stand-up guy and a lay-down QB.

Come to think of it, I've always had a better view of him when I lay down on the couch to watch him. Don't remember standing up too often because of him either. :snicker:

[pats-were-right]

Originally posted by Goobylal
[B]
Ah, the great &quot;almost&quot; argument. .

If it weren't for the great almost arguments, Drew would be warming someone's bench as a second or third stringer about now.

[pats-were-right]

Originally posted by Goobylal

Like I told you, Weis was a positional coach with the Pats from 1993-1996. Chris Palmer was his QB coach during that time. However his OC, you know the guy who designs and calls the plays, was Ray Perkins, a guy so amazing that when Parcells left for Jersey in 1997, he didn't even offer Perkins a job. So Perkins took an OC job with the Raiders the following year, got fired after Gruden took over, and was out of the league after that. Like I said, he's had lousy OC's who were out of the league soon after leaving the Pats.


And where did I say Weis was THE offensive coordinator?

The way Parcells' staffs used to work, it was a collaberative effort (much like Belichick's staffs now). Belichick was not "defensive coordinator" when he served on Parcells' staffs during the 90's - he had some "assistant coach - secondary" title. See how much titles meant?

But anyway, yeah - same Ray Perkins who won two super bowls with the Giants - he sucked - and the same Chris Palmer who was so highly regarded that he was handed the keys to an expansion team.


despite how horrible most of his teams in NE have been

From 1993 through 2001, Drew's tenure in NE, the team made the playoffs five out of nine seasons and finished .500 one of the other four seasons. We're not talking the '71 Saints or '76 Bucs here.

[buffmaniac]

If Drew would of had better teams around him during his career, he would be a Hall of Fame candidate for sure.

Its like with Brady. He's a great QB but if he did not have the great coaching and the great defense that he has had he would not have been nearly as successful. I mean in the one season where his defense did not play as well in 02 his team finished 9-7 and they did not make the playoffs.

With better coaching and a few better players, Drew will be just fine this year.

[pats-were-right]

Originally posted by buffmaniac
If Drew would of had better teams around him during his career, he would be a Hall of Fame candidate for sure.

Its like with Brady. He's a great QB but if he did not have the great coaching and the great defense that he has had he would not have been nearly as successful. I mean in the one season where his defense did not play as well in 02 his team finished 9-7 and they did not make the playoffs.

With better coaching and a few better players, Drew will be just fine this year.

See my edited post. The notion that his teams in NE were "bad" is preposterous.


I mean in the one season where his defense did not play as well in 02 his team finished 9-7 and they did not make the playoffs.

And did Brady have the crap-ass numbers in that season that Drew did during one of HIS "It's not his fault" seasons?

[buffmaniac]

Originally posted by pats-were-right
And where did I say Weis was THE offensive coordinator?

The way Parcells' staffs used to work, it was a collaberative effort (much like Belichick's staffs now). Belichick was not "defensive coordinator" when he served on Parcells' staffs during the 90's - he had some "assistant coach - secondary" title. See how much titles meant?

But anyway, yeah - same Ray Perkins who won two super bowls with the Giants - he sucked - and the same Chris Palmer who was so highly regarded that he was handed the keys to an expansion team.

What your point here? I thought Drew did just fine under that coaching staff. I mean in 93 he was a rookie. Then in 94 in just his 2nd yr. he went to the Pro Bowl and took the team to the Playoffs. He had a rough 3rd yr. but followed that up in 96 with another Pro Bowl and a trip to the Super Bowl. I thought Drew had a pretty good run under that coaching staff.




Originally posted by pats-were-right
From 1993 through 2001, Drew's tenure in NE, the team made the playoffs five out of nine seasons and finished .500 one of the other four seasons. We're not talking the '71 Saints or '76 Bucs here.

Yeah in the seasons that Drew had some talent around him he played well and he took the team to the playoffs. In 99 and 00 the years in which Drew's play wasn't good his teams just happen to stink in those years as well. Interesting coincidence.

Like any QB in the league, Drew needs to have some decent coaching and some decent players in order to have success.

[pats-were-right]

What your point here? I thought Drew did just fine under that coaching staff. I mean in 93 he was a rookie. Then in 94 in just his 2nd yr. he went to the Pro Bowl and took the team to the Playoffs. He had a rough 3rd yr. but followed that up in 96 with another Pro Bowl and a trip to the Super Bowl. I thought Drew had a pretty good run under that coaching staff.

Well I was responding to some4one who disagrees with you and labeled those coaches awful.

[buffmaniac]

Originally posted by pats-were-right
And did Brady have the crap-ass numbers in that season that Drew did during one of HIS "It's not his fault" seasons?

No but I would compare that season to Drew's year in 02.

Brady hasn't had to deal with some of the problems Drew has had like piss poor OL play, a horrible OC, or having no WRs to throw to. Put Brady on our team last year and he would of struggled as well.

[pats-were-right]

Originally posted by buffmaniac


No but I would compare that season to Drew's year in 02.

Brady hasn't had to deal with some of the problems Drew has had like piss poor OL play, a horrible OC, or having no WRs to throw to. Put Brady on our team last year and he would of struggled as well.

Forgive me for arguing stupid little points but we've put the '02 season for Drew in the "good" category. The whole "Brady or anyone else would have struggled too" rationale is intended for the poor seasons Drew has had.

[cordog]

Originally posted by Tatonka
yeah the defense was responsible for 41 points.. with 21 of those related to drews turnovers... 7 directly, and 14 indirectly.. drew sucked against a horrible defense.. great.. lots of passing yards.. he has made a living on passing yards.. guess what.. passing yards doesnt count for squat unless you score.

Your selective memory is kicking in again. They got 14 points off of DBs turnovers. So i believe that still leaves 35 points unaccounted for. Your right passing yards dont mean squat if you dont score. Well that game Drew put up 31 points.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by buffmaniac
If Drew would of had better teams around him during his career, he would be a Hall of Fame candidate for sure.

Its like with Brady. He's a great QB but if he did not have the great coaching and the great defense that he has had he would not have been nearly as successful. I mean in the one season where his defense did not play as well in 02 his team finished 9-7 and they did not make the playoffs.

With better coaching and a few better players, Drew will be just fine this year.

that is such a load of crap.. if bledsoe had.. blah blah blah.. if most nfl qbs had great talent around the.. they would be great.

and brady has had NO RUNNING BACK and won 2 superbowls in 3 years.. his WRs are not big name guys.. and i would argue that he made them as much as they are good receivers..

brady has never had a ton to work with on offense.. drew would be total dog crap in new england still.. belicheck would probably be fired by now.. and new england most certainly woudl not have 2 superbowls.. if drew was still the starter there.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by cordog
Your selective memory is kicking in again. They got 14 points off of DBs turnovers. So i believe that still leaves 35 points unaccounted for. Your right passing yards dont mean squat if you dont score. Well that game Drew put up 31 points. really.. funny.. but henry had a td.. i guess drew pushed him into the endzone? and larry centers too? drew didnt have 31 points.. he scored 14 points.. and he directly gave up 7, and his turnovers caused a short field and cost us another 7...
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/drives/NFL_20021006_OAK@BUF

your facts are off as well. drew didnt have 31 points.. and hit 3 ints cost us. they cost us points, and a chance to come back and win.

take a look at when he made his mistakes too.. in clutch time.. when we needed him to play big.. he blew it.. that is his MO.. he has done it his whole career, except for a few HIGHLY noted times.

point is.. drew threw 3 picks and fumbled the ball (though we didnt lose it) and only had two touchdowns..

i could give a **** about his 400 yards passing.. it didnt win the game.. and his turnovers cost us dearly, because the most costly interception came when the game was on the line and we were down 4 points.. he tossed a horrible pick to phillip buchanan.. and the game was all over from there.

[buffmaniac]

Originally posted by Tatonka
that is such a load of crap.. if bledsoe had.. blah blah blah.. if most nfl qbs had great talent around the.. they would be great.

and brady has had NO RUNNING BACK and won 2 superbowls in 3 years.. his WRs are not big name guys.. and i would argue that he made them as much as they are good receivers..

brady has never had a ton to work with on offense.. drew would be total dog crap in new england still.. belicheck would probably be fired by now.. and new england most certainly woudl not have 2 superbowls.. if drew was still the starter there.

All Brady has had is the best coaching in the game and one of the top defenses. Also Brady's WR are unknown but very effective. They fit perfectly into the short passing game that they run. Brady's OL is also full of unknowns too but they are very well coached and they give Brady a ton of time in the pocket. The fact is Brady is a very good QB but he has had very good teams around him his whole career. Do you think that is a coincidence? The fact is a QB needs to get decent play from his teammates if he is going to have any success.

And its funny but when Drew has gotten decent play from his teammates he has been very successful as well.


Originally posted by Tatonka
really.. funny.. but henry had a td.. i guess drew pushed him into the endzone? and larry centers too? drew didnt have 31 points.. he scored 14 points.. and he directly gave up 7, and his turnovers caused a short field and cost us another 7...
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/drives/NFL_20021006_OAK@BUF

your facts are off as well. drew didnt have 31 points.. and hit 3 ints cost us. they cost us points, and a chance to come back and win.

take a look at when he made his mistakes too.. in clutch time.. when we needed him to play big.. he blew it.. that is his MO.. he has done it his whole career, except for a few HIGHLY noted times.

point is.. drew threw 3 picks and fumbled the ball (though we didnt lose it) and only had two touchdowns..

i could give a **** about his 400 yards passing.. it didnt win the game.. and his turnovers cost us dearly, because the most costly interception came when the game was on the line and we were down 4 points.. he tossed a horrible pick to phillip buchanan.. and the game was all over from there.

The fact is that if our defense would have played half way decent that game we would have won. And just because Drew doesn't throw a TD doesn't mean he didn't have something to do with it. I guess we should say Drew led us on 4 TD drives and another 1 that led to a FG. Drew did plenty that game to help us win. Its a shame the defense didn't do anything.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by buffmaniac
All Brady has had is the best coaching in the game and one of the top defenses. Also Brady's WR are unknown but very effective. They fit perfectly into the short passing game that they run. Brady's OL is also full of unknowns too but they are very well coached and they give Brady a ton of time in the pocket. The fact is Brady is a very good QB but he has had very good teams around him his whole career. Do you think that is a coincidence? The fact is a QB needs to get decent play from his teammates if he is going to have any success.


have you ever noticed that the NE coaches really didnt look that good while bledsoe was there.. but brady steps in and all the sudden weiss is a genious, and belichick is a mastermind...

bledsoe would not have won crap if he was still in new england..

the coaches would have been fired by now for having three 4 crappy seasons in a row.

[buffmaniac]

.
Originally posted by Tatonka
have you ever noticed that the NE coaches really didnt look that good while bledsoe was there.. but brady steps in and all the sudden weiss is a genious, and belichick is a mastermind...

bledsoe would not have won crap if he was still in new england..

the coaches would have been fired by now for having three 4 crappy seasons in a row.

Belichick and Weis are extremely good coaches. If Bledsoe would have been there longer, he would of had success as well. It reminds me of Parcells and his coaching staff in NE from 93-96. It took them a couple seasons to fix that team but when they did Drew was a Pro Bowl QB and the team was in the Super Bowl.

In 2000 when Belichick and Weis took over that team it had alot of problems. I mean in 2000 Drew's leading rusher was Kevin Faulk with only 500+yards. The OL stunk that year. Why do you think in the next offseason Belichick and Weis decided to change 3 of their 5 OLman? NE's defense that year was also not as good that year ranking 18th in the league. Drew was not the reason that the coaching staff did not look good that year.

After that season the coaches went about making alot of changes to that team to improve it. There is no way of knowing how Drew would have played in 2001 but with the changes that were made I bet he would have been pretty successful.

[socalfan]

All you have to do is look at the Pittsburg game for the AFC championship to see that even though NE won, Bledsoe still almost cost them that game. Brady makes that team look so much better. The NE coaches got the genius title once Brady started to play regularly, because Brady, it turns out, is a franchise QB.

[buffmaniac]

Originally posted by socalfan
All you have to do is look at the Pittsburg game for the AFC championship to see that even though NE won, Bledsoe still almost cost them that game. Brady makes that team look so much better. The NE coaches got the genius title once Brady started to play regularly, because Brady, it turns out, is a franchise QB.

How did Drew almost cost them that game? He threw their only TD pass.

And Weis and Belichick had done plenty before Brady came around. Belichick had consistently built terrific Defenses and Weis did a great job turning around the Jets offense and Vinny Testaverde. The fact is when they took over NE in 2000 the team stunk. Just go look at how many changes they made in that offseason. There were quite alot of new starters in 2001. I'm telling you had Drew stayed in NE he would of improved as the team improved. Just like what happened earlier in his career with Parcells as his coach. And just like what is going to happen this year with the improvements we have made this offseason. You'll see

[The Spaz]

Just put this damn this damn topic to rest each side has points and neither is right or wrong.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by The Spaz
Just put this damn this damn topic to rest each side has points and neither is right or wrong.

dude.. that is what this board is here for..

i dont want a board where everyone agrees.. debate is fun.. everyone is entitled to their own opinion and to express it here as much as they want.

:cheers:

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by Tatonka
dude.. that is what this board is here for..

i dont want a board where everyone agrees.. debate is fun.. everyone is entitled to their own opinion and to express it here as much as they want.

:cheers:

To say the same things over and over and over and over is not a debate IMO. Try to create a new topic to talk about that will be more interesting.:up:

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by The Spaz
To say the same things over and over and over and over is not a debate IMO. Try to create a new topic to talk about that will be more interesting.:up:

it is real easy not to read the thread.... simple as that... it is the offseason.. there is nothing else to talk about...

[Kramer]

What do you say that we give Drew one more season to prove himself? If he sucks we bench him by game 4. If he excels then we have a vet QB to keep the reigns until JPL is ready.

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by Kramer
What do you say that we give Drew one more season to prove himself? If he sucks we bench him by game 4. If he excels then we have a vet QB to keep the reigns until JPL is ready.

That's been my thinking except whose the vet? If your talking about Travis Brown then you might as well put Losman in you can't get any worse results.

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by Tatonka
it is real easy not to read the thread.... simple as that... it is the offseason.. there is nothing else to talk about...

Can't do that.

[Goobylal]

Originally posted by buffmaniac


How did Drew almost cost them that game? He threw their only TD pass.
Actually Bledsoe "almost cost them that game." But he didn't. Close only counts in horseshoes and handgrenades. And I guess I missed it where you have to play pretty to win because, silly me, I thought the idea was to score points? :confused2


And Weis and Belichick had done plenty before Brady came around. Belichick had consistently built terrific Defenses and Weis did a great job turning around the Jets offense and Vinny Testaverde. The fact is when they took over NE in 2000 the team stunk. Just go look at how many changes they made in that offseason. There were quite alot of new starters in 2001. I'm telling you had Drew stayed in NE he would of improved as the team improved. Just like what happened earlier in his career with Parcells as his coach. And just like what is going to happen this year with the improvements we have made this offseason. You'll see
Funny how some people conveniently forget the SLEW of FA's the Pats signed prior to the 2001 season. I believe it was something like 19 FA's, with 11 of them being new starters from the previous year. That's only half the team, they should have jelled immediately! :sarcasm:

[The_Philster]

:shakeno: C'mon, Goobylal...you should know better than to use concrete facts. ;)

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by The_Philster
:shakeno: C'mon, Goobylal...you should know better than to use concrete facts. ;)

I thought stats were the end all be all.:snicker:

[The_Philster]

Originally posted by The Spaz
I thought stats were the end all be all.:snicker:

:rofl:

[Goobylal]

Originally posted by pats-were-right



And where did I say Weis was THE offensive coordinator?

The way Parcells' staffs used to work, it was a collaberative effort (much like Belichick's staffs now). Belichick was not &quot;defensive coordinator&quot; when he served on Parcells' staffs during the 90's - he had some &quot;assistant coach - secondary&quot; title. See how much titles meant?
Ding, thanks for playing. First of all, claiming that the coaches had equal say under Parcells and Belichick is ludicrous at best. There was/is clearly a hierarchy. Actually while you're right that Parcells liked to call his coordinators "assistant head coach" or "special assistant" plus another position coach title, everyone knew who was running the show and that was done more to prevent them from being signed by another team since the only way to do that was to make them HC's. Belichick HAS been using the traditional titles, so your claim that titles are irrelevant is just plain wrong. Why use titles at all if everyone is equally coaching?

As for Weis, he wasn't anything special as a coach with the pats from 1993-1996 and bounced around from position to position because they didn't know where he best fit. Hell even when Parcells left for Jersey, he was initially just the receivers coach, but became the OC and then was given the proper title by Parcells the following year.


But anyway, yeah - same Ray Perkins who won two super bowls with the Giants - he sucked - and the same Chris Palmer who was so highly regarded that he was handed the keys to an expansion team..
Perkins PLAYED in 2 SB, and won one, but the only SB he COACHED in was against the Packers, and they lost that game. He never coached the Giants in either of their SB's in any capacity. And as I said, a year after leaving the Pats, he was out of the NFL, so yes he sucked. Weis was as above and probably found his niche at WR coach in 1996, but again he, like Palmer, had to work their way up to OC, and then to HC, but were initially just position coaches.

[tonawandabacker]

this season will show if we have what it takes

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by tonawandabacker
this season will show if we have what it takes

Welcome to the Zone!:up::beers: