Winslow Jr. turns down $40 mill

[Gunzlingr]

Updating an earlier report, Pat McManamon, of ClevelandBrowns.com, reports the Cleveland Browns had their six-year, $40 million deal to rookie TE Kellen Winslow Jr. turned down by Winslow's agents, Carl and Kevin Poston. The refused deal, which included $13 million in guaranteed money, was nearly identical to the same offer that Washington Redskins rookie S Sean Taylor signed. Taylor was selected at No. 5 overall in the 2004 NFL Draft, one pick higher than Winslow. The $40 million is the maximum amount Taylor can earn – if he reaches his incentives. A league source said Taylor's incentives are tied to Pro Bowl appearances, but the Browns tied their incentives to Winslow based on receptions because the team felt Pro Bowl voting can be skewed, a source said.

according to KFFL anyway.

[The_Philster]

http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news_room/news/arts/2726.0.html

[saviorbledsoe]

what an idiot

[mypoorfriendme]

so it turns out that cartoon from a while ago off that extremeskins site is going to be more true than anticipated.

[Charlieguide]

The Browns said this was their "best offer" up front, in an effort to shorten negotiations and get him in camp. I can't understand why they'd turn it down, but I've read that this agent is notorious for "getting the most" for his players. Perhaps he doesn't believe it's their best offer? Very disappointing.

[Dozerdog]

Arent you glad we didn't draft him? (if given the opportunity)

[saviorbledsoe]

no rookie is even worth that much to begin with.

[Ebenezer]

Until the final contract is signed we will have no clue who wins and loses.

[ryjam282]

I can't believe that. I truly believe it was the agents decision cause how in the world can anyone that is a rookie turn down that kind of dough? I always like KWII, since he was a Cane but I am beginning to think different now.....Kinda like I do with Warren Sapp.

[juice]

The Browns should not have gone public, now they have pissed off this kid who already has an attitude.. Its not like the organization didn't know who his agent was when they drafted him.

In the end the franchize will loose out by not handleing things in house.

[Mr. Cynical]

Paying $40M for a rookie tight end is the perfect definition of ridiculous.

[Bulldog]

This is the richest contract offer for any TE in the history of the NFL and this idiot and his agents decide to turn it down? Piss on KW II. If I were the Browns, I would try to trade the rights to this bum ASAP. Dude, you're good, but you're not that good.

[Dozerdog]

Originally posted by Bulldog
This is the richest contract offer for any TE in the history of the NFL and this idiot and his agents decide to turn it down? Piss on KW II. If I were the Browns, I would try to trade the rights to this bum ASAP. Dude, you're good, but you're not that good.


After trading a 3rd round pick to move up 1 SPOT!!!! to get him?

Cleveland is stupid- I hope he makes them pay through the ass for that one-


Be thankful for TD- you could be a Cleveland Brown Fan or a Dolphin fan punching yourself in the nuts right now

[Charlieguide]

Originally posted by Bulldog
This is the richest contract offer for any TE in the history of the NFL and this idiot and his agents decide to turn it down? Piss on KW II. If I were the Browns, I would try to trade the rights to this bum ASAP. Dude, you're good, but you're not that good.

I would love to see them try; he would still count against the rookie salary cap, and few teams, if any, could afford his price in addition to their own rookies.

Agreed, he isn't worth it. He may be someday, but in the NFL, you prove it, then you earn it . . . at least that's how it used to be.

[Turf]

Originally posted by Mr. Cynical
Paying $40M for a rookie tight end is the perfect definition of ridiculous.

I gotta agree with that.

[BuffaloRanger]

The media and fans have been kissing this kid's ass for way too long. It's a joke. He's been a pampered athlete because of his daddy - all his life. Some are already predicting Canton for him. I'm not saying he wasn't a very skilled college football player. But his attitude will never change. I will always cheer against that "Souljah" and celebrate his failures.

I hope he pulls a McKinney (more Miami "Ghetto Dog" attitude) and holds out half the season.

[elltrain22]

This guy may be the most egotistical athlete in pro sports. How do you turn down an offer that makes you the highest paid tight end in the NFL? He must really think he is da shiznet, and he is talented, but what ever happened to being humble, and not always so friggen greedy. What a loser. I hope he is a total bust...

[The_Philster]

Question is...is anyone actually surprised he's like this? :scratch:

[HenryRules]

Here's the thing ... if Cleveland caves and he ends up getting more than this offer ... who can say he and his agent were stupid?

It's a business and they're trying to get the best deal they can for themselves.

[BillsFever]

We're not the ones paying him the contract so why should we care?

If any of us were up for our yearly review at work and we had a chance to sucker another 5% a year out of our employer wouldn't you do it? That's what I thought.

[BillsFever]

It's easy to have hatred for this kind of stuff because we will never be in this situation.

If you were drafted #6 this year wouldn't you try and get as much as you could? I know I would.

Just like with players in FA who fetches the big contract. I'm sure all of us would too.

If you were 27 years old and up for FA would you settle for 15 million when you could get 25 million somewhere else?

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by BillsFever
It's easy to have hatred for this kind of stuff because we will never be in this situation.

If you were drafted #6 this year wouldn't you try and get as much as you could? I know I would.

Just like with players in FA who fetches the big contract. I'm sure all of us would too.

If you were 27 years old and up for FA would you settle for 15 million when you could get 25 million somewhere else?


They offered him a contarct that is laready higher then all the TE's who have proven himself. Thsi guy is an absolute ass and I for one hope he sucks pond water in the NFL.

[HenryRules]

Originally posted by The Spaz
They offered him a contarct that is laready higher then all the TE's who have proven himself. Thsi guy is an absolute ass and I for one hope he sucks pond water in the NFL.

Who cares what the offer is relative to others?

If he can get them to give him more than they offered, then why accept it?

[BillsFever]

Originally posted by The Spaz
They offered him a contarct that is laready higher then all the TE's who have proven himself. Thsi guy is an absolute ass and I for one hope he sucks pond water in the NFL.

I don't disagree with you at all that the money is fair but if he can get even more out of them then more power to him.

All the high drafted rookies are paid to much before they prove themselves.

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by HenryRules
Who cares what the offer is relative to others?

If he can get them to give him more than they offered, then why accept it?

Whatever!:rofl:

[Novacane]

I hope he is a bust. :lolpoint: Cleveland

[The Spaz]

Maybe I'm wrong but most all other agents an dplayers seem to go by the year before he obviously thinks he's special so on that point he's a complete **** wad!

[Novacane]

Originally posted by The Spaz
Maybe I'm wrong but most all other agents an dplayers seem to go by the year before he obviously thinks he's special so on that point he's a complete **** wad!



Agreed. For once I'd like to see a team play hardball but they won't. They will give in and sign him.


He would not be so highly thought of if his last name was not winslow

[The Spaz]

I mean the #1 pick has already signed...jesus.

[Novacane]

all I care is Losman and Evans are in. The rest can hold out forever

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by Fairway To Green
all I care is Losman and Evans are in. The rest can hold out forever

Yeah I know I just hated this guy going into the draft and he hasn't proven me wrong yet.

[The_Philster]

Originally posted by The Spaz
Yeah I know I just hated this guy going into the draft and he hasn't proven me wrong yet.
Same here...it makes me sick that he's pulling this on my second favorite team. :down:

[Novacane]

Originally posted by The Spaz
Yeah I know I just hated this guy going into the draft and he hasn't proven me wrong yet.


I can't stand him either. That he turned down more than Gonzales makes is a friken joke.

[HenryRules]

Originally posted by Fairway To Green
Agreed. For once I'd like to see a team play hardball but they won't. They will give in and sign him.


You're saying the exact reason that his agent and him are smart. Cleveland will probably offer him more than this offer.

As BF basically said - if your boss offers you a wage similar to what other people are getting, but you know he'd be willing to give you more, do you a) Accept less money than what you can get or b) Hold out until he offers what you know is the most you can get?

[HenryRules]

Originally posted by The Spaz
Whatever!:rofl:

So let's say your boss came in and offered you more than anyone else at your position in the company, but you overheard him saying to another manager that he'd actually be willing to give you 5% more than that. Would you turn down the first offer?

Explain the difference.

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by HenryRules
So let's say your boss came in and offered you more than anyone else at your position in the company, but you overheard him saying to another manager that he'd actually be willing to give you 5% more than that. Would you turn down the first offer?

Explain the difference.


There's lots of assumign going on there. You know for a fact you heard the Browns sayignthere willing to pay Winslow more than there offering?:confused:

[HenryRules]

Originally posted by Fairway To Green
He would not be so highly thought of if his last name was not winslow

Yeah, most TE's that win the John Mackey in their junior year and are finalists in the soph year are POS.

[HenryRules]

Originally posted by The Spaz
There's lots of assumign going on there. You know for a fact you heard the Browns sayignthere willing to pay Winslow more than there offering?:confused:

You're avoiding the question.

Winslow and his agent think they'll get a better offer - that's all that matters when they're making this decision.

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by HenryRules
Yeah, most TE's that win the John Mackey in their junior year and are finalists in the soph year are POS.

Ron Dayne won the heisman trophy...

[HenryRules]

Originally posted by The Spaz
Ron Dayne won the heisman trophy...

As a junior?

Was he a runner up as a sophomore?

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by HenryRules
You're avoiding the question.

Winslow and his agent think they'll get a better offer - that's all that matters when they're making this decision.

I am not avoiding your putting situations out there that I have no clue that are going on. Fact si he's already being offered the highest paid TE money ever in the history of the NFL.

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by HenryRules
As a junior?

Was he a runner up as a sophomore?

Awards don't mean jack it's what you do in the NFL. It's my opinion Winslow and his agent are slime balls and sitting out isn't helping out him his teammates or the browns organization.

[HenryRules]

Originally posted by The Spaz
I am not avoiding your putting situations out there that I have no clue that are going on. Fact si he's already being offered the highest paid TE money ever in the history of the NFL.

Let me repeat my questions so that you can answer them if you think I'm putting situations out there that you have no clue about.

1 - If your boss offered you a contract that you knew you could do better than, would you accept the offer? Even if it was better than anyone else at your position?

2 - If you would not accept the offer, then why should Winslow, when he thinks he can get a better offer from Cleveland? If you would accept, please explain to me why. I don't see any reason for that at all.

[HenryRules]

Originally posted by The Spaz
Awards don't mean jack it's what you do in the NFL. It's my opinion Winslow and his agent are slime balls and sitting out isn't helping out him his teammates or the browns organization.

Dominating a position as a sophomore and junior definitely do mean a lot.

If he gets more money, it's definitely helping him out.

Once the contract is signed, that's when you put the team and teammates first. Until that point, it's all business. To do otherwise, would be completely foolish.

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by HenryRules
Let me repeat my questions so that you can answer them if you think I'm putting situations out there that you have no clue about.

1 - If your boss offered you a contract that you knew you could do better than, would you accept the offer? Even if it was better than anyone else at your position?

2 - If you would not accept the offer, then why should Winslow, when he thinks he can get a better offer from Cleveland? If you would accept, please explain to me why. I don't see any reason for that at all.


I have no problem being offered more money after I earned it at my profession that I have been in for a few years.

[HenryRules]

Originally posted by The Spaz
I have no problem being offered more money after I earned it at my profession that I have been in for a few years.

I don't follow you at all.

Would you or would you not accept an offer that was less than what you thought you could get?

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by HenryRules
I don't follow you at all.

Would you or would you not accept an offer that was less than what you thought you could get?

After I have proven my worth maybe I hold the cards.

[HenryRules]

Originally posted by The Spaz
After I have proven my worth maybe I hold the cards.

So you're saying that you'd accept an offer that was worse than the best available. That's a plain stupid action.

[The Spaz]

I'm done on this subject!!!!:eek::whatthe:

[Bulldog]

Originally posted by HenryRules
Yeah, most TE's that win the John Mackey in their junior year and are finalists in the soph year are POS.

Since your so caught up in awards, why don't you post KW's numbers from last year at Miami? Truth be told, Winslow is way overrated and to further compound that fact he is a complete A-HOLE!

P.S. Being offered more money than anyone else in the NFL at your position before you even play a game is idiotic. And the fact that he and his agents have the balls to reject the offer is even more amazing!

[BAM]

holy ****! How much does this guy want???

[Gunzlingr]

bottomline Greedy bastards take hold out thinking they can get more. Those who actually care take the offer, knowing they will get far more in the long run. Being an ass may accomplish short term goals faster, but it only hurts in the long run.

[HenryRules]

Originally posted by Bulldog
Since your so caught up in awards, why don't you post KW's numbers from last year at Miami? Truth be told, Winslow is way overrated and to further compound that fact he is a complete A-HOLE!

P.S. Being offered more money than anyone else in the NFL at your position before you even play a game is idiotic. And the fact that he and his agents have the balls to reject the offer is even more amazing!

Brock Berlin played like a piece of **** last year. Of course a TE isn't going to have his best #'s if his QB can't throw well. However, Winslow still played amazing.

[HenryRules]

Originally posted by Gunzlingr
bottomline Greedy bastards take hold out thinking they can get more. Those who actually care take the offer, knowing they will get far more in the long run. Being an ass may accomplish short term goals faster, but it only hurts in the long run.

Far more in the long run?? There's been enough first round draft picks that are highly touted and bust out, only a fool wouldn't take as much as they can when given the opportunity. Hell, even after you've proven yourself, the team won't pay you for what you've done previously ... once the team doesn't find you useful anymore, they'll cut your ass (Ruben Brown ring a bell). I'd like you to name a single person that made more in the long run by accepting less initially. Actually, speaking of Brown, he did the team a favour just 3 years ago and renegotiated his contract to help them sign Fina. That certainly paid off long-term.

What's the most stupid thing about all of this is that Cleveland obviously wanted this guy really badly, yet they waited until pretty much the last possible moment before offering him a contract. Then after the coach says that he's not going to go public with the details, the president (I think it was him) leaks the story and the offer.

[DraftBoy]

Also keep in mind something I didnt know that i saw on PTI, that he DID NOT REJECT A CONTRACT WORTH 40 MILLION DOLLARS....No no no, he rejected a contract potentially worth 40, so infact he would most likely not become the highest paid TE in the NFL, so all of you complaining about it cause we dont know the specifics of how the money could be handed out and if the levels he needed to reach were so outta wack. Keep in mind the Browns leeked this story so it looks better and make KWII the enemy. This kid WAS the most talented player in this past years draft. Deny what you want but he plain and simple dominated college football for three seasons, and one of those was as a backup to Jeremy Shockey. Remeber that we dont know the figures and we dont know what he actually rejected in real money, so save the bashing till you know all the facts.

[Tatonka]

i just heard that too draftboy.. the contract was laced with incentives and it was basically a signing bonus with very minimal guarentees... they basically said the reason he turned it down had nothing to do with the total amount.. but basically had to do with the way it was set up...


get off winslows nuts

[kardshark19]

Originally posted by HenryRules
Far more in the long run?? There's been enough first round draft picks that are highly touted and bust out, only a fool wouldn't take as much as they can when given the opportunity. Hell, even after you've proven yourself, the team won't pay you for what you've done previously ... once the team doesn't find you useful anymore, they'll cut your ass (Ruben Brown ring a bell). I'd like you to name a single person that made more in the long run by accepting less initially. Actually, speaking of Brown, he did the team a favour just 3 years ago and renegotiated his contract to help them sign Fina. That certainly paid off long-term.

What's the most stupid thing about all of this is that Cleveland obviously wanted this guy really badly, yet they waited until pretty much the last possible moment before offering him a contract. Then after the coach says that he's not going to go public with the details, the president (I think it was him) leaks the story and the offer.

I think Lavar Arrington has actually made more from being very team-oriented and always restructuring his contracts. That is why he has been a fan-favorite all these years. It was not until this year where his agent (isn't it the Postons...haha) screwed up that contract that he started having problems with the organization.

[Mr. Cynical]

All I know is that as a team owner/president, there's no way I pay a rookie TE who has never played a down in the NFL $40M unless it was a very incentive laden deal.

IMHO, a rookie tight end is just not worth the same risk or money as a rookie QB, RB, WR or DE, regardless of how talented a tight end he may be. It's just not as impactful a position. It can be very productive, yes, especially if he is on the same level as Gonzo or Shockey.Still, I would rather spend my money elsewhere. But hey that's just me and what do I know. ;)

As for the morals/ethics of him holding out for more cash....well, this is a business and if he wants more and thinks he can get it, more power to him. However, to some people there is a point at which it becomes pure greed and that is a turn off to those people (including me).

[The_Philster]

:scared: I'm agreeing with Mr Cynical for the most part.
The big thing is, the rookies are slotted as far as what they can get and if they give him a larger sum, the other rookies get shortchanged.

[Mr. Cynical]

Originally posted by The_Philster
:scared: I'm agreeing with Mr Cynical for the most part.
The big thing is, the rookies are slotted as far as what they can get and if they give him a larger sum, the other rookies get shortchanged.

Very true. :up:

Also, think about the damage it does going forward....

He gets alot more, which then can be used as a reference next year....and so on...and so on. Costs escalate more than normal....prices escalate....we as fans pay more in the end. :cynic:

[HenryRules]

Originally posted by The_Philster
:scared: I'm agreeing with Mr Cynical for the most part.
The big thing is, the rookies are slotted as far as what they can get and if they give him a larger sum, the other rookies get shortchanged.

The other rookies have already signed, so Winslow's negotiations have no impact on them.

The rookie pool only deals with the first year of rookie's contracs (well that plus the pro-rated amount of their signing bonus) so there's definitely a lot of room for negotiation beyond the point that other rookies are taken care of.

[HenryRules]

Originally posted by Mr. Cynical
Very true. :up:

Also, think about the damage it does going forward....

He gets alot more, which then can be used as a reference next year....and so on...and so on. Costs escalate more than normal....prices escalate....we as fans pay more in the end. :cynic:

I don't think that the salaries players make has a huge impact on what we as fans pay.

Almost all the owners have successfully made a lot of money in other industries and you don't do that without maximizing your income. Considering how much of a business sports has become, I don't think the owners are giving the fans a discount right now out of the goodness of their heart (which is what would be implied by the fact that they could raise prices to cover an increase in cost).

[The Spaz]

Wow Winslow doesn''t want to work hard for that 40 million? Hmm Gallery has signed Eli Maning, Robert Gallery, Larry Fitzgerald, Sean Taylor have all signed yet Winslow has a problem unbelieveable.

[Mr. Cynical]

Originally posted by HenryRules
I don't think that the salaries players make has a huge impact on what we as fans pay.

Almost all the owners have successfully made a lot of money in other industries and you don't do that without maximizing your income. Considering how much of a business sports has become, I don't think the owners are giving the fans a discount right now out of the goodness of their heart (which is what would be implied by the fact that they could raise prices to cover an increase in cost).

I don't get your point about "owners giving fans a discount right now out of the goodness of their heart". When did we as fans get a discount?

In any case, you are forgetting the other side of the business equation: cost. Yes, you want to max income but at the same time you want to minimize cost. If players' salaries keep growing exponentially....which is what is happening....then their cost of ownership grows as well. Since they want to keep their profit margins as big as they can, they undoubtedly pass a portion of that cost to the fans. Cause and effect in the business world.

[juice]

Winslow isn't guaranteed $40 million.. so his agents are looking out for their clients best interest.

[HenryRules]

Originally posted by Mr. Cynical
I don't get your point about "owners giving fans a discount right now out of the goodness of their heart". When did we as fans get a discount?

In any case, you are forgetting the other side of the business equation: cost. Yes, you want to max income but at the same time you want to minimize cost. If players' salaries keep growing exponentially....which is what is happening....then their cost of ownership grows as well. Since they want to keep their profit margins as big as they can, they undoubtedly pass a portion of that cost to the fans. Cause and effect in the business world.

l agree 100% - owners want to maximize their profits. In an industry like football, where the cost of satisfying an extra customer is minimal, maximizing profits means maximizing income.

Owners will not charge more because their costs go up. Doing so would imply that their previous prices were not at a level that would provide a maximum income. Saying that owners will raise prices in order to cover costs is the same thing as saying that owners are not currently charging a high enough amount to maximize their income (thus providing fans with a discount).

Here's an example to get my point across. Say Buffalo makes a $5 mil profit this year. Then let's say they go out and draft Mike Williams next year to improve our offense and he costs a bunch of money, so Buffalo has to raise prices to cover his cost. Well, if that's the case, then they could have raised prices last year and made more income, so in effect, they were providing us, the consumers, a discount because they were not charging us the amount that would maximize their income. Even though they made a profit last year, it was not the maximum amount they could make.

By the way, the example I gave (raising prices to cover higher costs), that's an example of how I don't think NFL teams run their business. NFL teams always charge the maximum amount that customers are willing to pay before income drops off.

[Mr. Cynical]

Originally posted by HenryRules
Here's an example to get my point across. Say Buffalo makes a $5 mil profit this year. Then let's say they go out and draft Mike Williams next year to improve our offense and he costs a bunch of money, so Buffalo has to raise prices to cover his cost. Well, if that's the case, then they could have raised prices last year and made more income, so in effect, they were providing us, the consumers, a discount because they were not charging us the amount that would maximize their income. Even though they made a profit last year, it was not the maximum amount they could make.

I couldn't disagree more with this example. You are suggesting there is no limiit to what they "could" charge and that they "cut us a break" by not charging us $1,000 per seat (or something to that effect). Maximizing income in business does not work that way. In any case, they are more concerned with margin than gross revenue. That means keeping costs low as well as increasing your top line.

But if the costs rise, there are two options:

1. Lower profit margins
2. Increase prices

I don't think many owners want to choose option 1. And by increasing prices I don't only mean tickets. It is more complex than that, as many products are inter-related and inter-dependent. It's a domino effect.

Anyway, we can debate this back and forth all day but I'm not going to be convinced that increases in player salaries do not effect the cost to fans in the end.

Let's just agree to disagree and move on. :)

[Earthquake Enyart]

Originally posted by The Spaz
Maybe I'm wrong but most all other agents an dplayers seem to go by the year before he obviously thinks he's special so on that point he's a complete **** wad!

I can't remember the last time I heard the word **** wad.


In negotiations, the first offer is never accepted. Period.

[HenryRules]

Originally posted by Mr. Cynical
I couldn't disagree more with this example. You are suggesting there is no limiit to what they "could" charge and that they "cut us a break" by not charging us $1,000 per seat (or something to that effect). Maximizing income in business does not work that way. In any case, they are more concerned with margin than gross revenue. That means keeping costs low as well as increasing your top line.

But if the costs rise, there are two options:

1. Lower profit margins
2. Increase prices

I don't think many owners want to choose option 1. And by increasing prices I don't only mean tickets. It is more complex than that, as many products are inter-related and inter-dependent. It's a domino effect.

Anyway, we can debate this back and forth all day but I'm not going to be convinced that increases in player salaries do not effect the cost to fans in the end.

Let's just agree to disagree and move on. :)

I'll agree to disagree, but I'm not suggesting that owners can raises prices ad infinitum and increase profits. What I was saying is that <i>if</i> owners could raise prices and increase profits, then the amount they were charging <i>previously</i> was not a high enough amount to maximize profits.

[Bulldog]

Originally posted by Tatonka
i just heard that too draftboy.. the contract was laced with incentives and it was basically a signing bonus with very minimal guarentees... they basically said the reason he turned it down had nothing to do with the total amount.. but basically had to do with the way it was set up...


get off winslows nuts

You mean he would actually have to earn his money? Come on, how can that be. I know that the rest of the working world operates that way, but NFL players should be treated differently.

T, I would be interested in seeing what the actual guranteed money was in that offer. Almost all of the rookie contracts that have been done this year have incentives built into them. Why should KW II be any different?

My dislike of KW II isn't based on this contract situation alone, but rather a culmination of several of his actions and his piss poor attitude.

Anyone remember exactly how many times KW II saw the endzone last year at Miami?

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by Bulldog
You mean he would actually have to earn his money? Come on, how can that be. I know that the rest of the working world operates that way, but NFL players should be treated differently.

T, I would be interested in seeing what the actual guranteed money was in that offer. Almost all of the rookie contracts that have been done this year have incentives built into them. Why should KW II be any different?

My dislike of KW II isn't based on this contract situation alone, but rather a culmination of several of his actions and his piss poor attitude.

Anyone remember exactly how many times KW II saw the endzone last year at Miami?


That's what I'm saying god forbid winslow has to work a little harder to earn the incentive money. What a ****ing loser he is.

[Bulldog]

Originally posted by DraftBoy
This kid WAS the most talented player in this past years draft. Deny what you want but he plain and simple dominated college football for three seasons, and one of those was as a backup to Jeremy Shockey.

WINSLOW, Kellen 13 60 605 10.1 1 39 46.5

This is Winslow's stat line for last year at Miami. As you can see, he averaged 46.5 YDS per game a scored one TD. And to top it all off, the lone TD he did score was against Louisiana Tech in the first game of the year. Man, I guess he really did dominate college football last year. And if he was backing up Shockey for one of the years, how exactly did he dominate that year? Winslow had one really good year in 2002. I know that the guy is talented, I'm just not ready to lable him the best TE in the NFL as some of you suggest.

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by Bulldog
WINSLOW, Kellen 13 60 605 10.1 1 39 46.5

This is Winslow's stat line for last year at Miami. As you can see, he averaged 46.5 YDS per game a scored one TD. And to top it all off, the lone TD he did score was against Louisiana Tech in the first game of the year. Man, I guess he really did dominate college football last year. And if he was backing up Shockey for one of the years, how exactly did he dominate that year? Winslow had one really good year in 2002. I know that the guy is talented, I'm just not ready to lable him the best TE in the NFL as some of you suggest.
It's even better let's compare that with our Tim Euhus.

Tim Euhus 49 645 13.2 45 7

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/teamstats?teamId=204

[mysticsoto]

I think overall, NFL salaries for Rookies is skyrocketing at an alarming rate and teams are paying too much. Winslow is not worth as much as he thinks he is, and his contract is generous as it is - despite it being incentive driven.

I'd say the 2 dummies that came out of this year's draft are NYG and CLE!

The Lions came out best and to be honest, I like NE style - they don't break the bank for anyone - even big mouth cornerbacks who have earned pro-bowl status (as compared to big mouth unproven rookies just coming in).

I hope teams that break the bank signing these players do terrible and show that inept mgmt leads to an inept team!

[HenryRules]

Originally posted by Bulldog
WINSLOW, Kellen 13 60 605 10.1 1 39 46.5

This is Winslow's stat line for last year at Miami. As you can see, he averaged 46.5 YDS per game a scored one TD. And to top it all off, the lone TD he did score was against Louisiana Tech in the first game of the year. Man, I guess he really did dominate college football last year. And if he was backing up Shockey for one of the years, how exactly did he dominate that year? Winslow had one really good year in 2002. I know that the guy is talented, I'm just not ready to lable him the best TE in the NFL as some of you suggest.

How many Miami games did you watch last year?

Did you see how bad Berlin played?

[DraftBoy]

Originally posted by Bulldog
WINSLOW, Kellen 13 60 605 10.1 1 39 46.5

This is Winslow's stat line for last year at Miami. As you can see, he averaged 46.5 YDS per game a scored one TD. And to top it all off, the lone TD he did score was against Louisiana Tech in the first game of the year. Man, I guess he really did dominate college football last year. And if he was backing up Shockey for one of the years, how exactly did he dominate that year? Winslow had one really good year in 2002. I know that the guy is talented, I'm just not ready to lable him the best TE in the NFL as some of you suggest.


Did you watch college football the past 3 years??

[DraftBoy]

Originally posted by The Spaz
It's even better let's compare that with our Tim Euhus.

Tim Euhus 49 645 13.2 45 7

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/teamstats?teamId=204

Ridiculous argument and you know it. Euhus is of no comparison to Winslow just drop this one.

[DraftBoy]

Originally posted by The Spaz
That's what I'm saying god forbid winslow has to work a little harder to earn the incentive money. What a ****ing loser he is.

Do you know how much money Sean Taylor is guaranteed in his contract by just signing it, and im not talking about bonuses. Im willing to bet alot that it was alot more than Winslow's the way its looking right now is that the Winslow offer was less guaranteed money then about 2-3 picks lower than him but more in the way of incentives. Im all for a player earning his keep but to put that much pressure on a rookie is unreal and unfair. If the guy ahead of you was making the X amount per year but you were offered enough to make the X amount but were only guaranteed to make Z amount which is the same amount as somebody below you would you sign the deal? I sure as hell wouldnt, rather id look for Y amount with the potential to reach X amount. All he's doing is trying to make the guaranteed amount for his slot which is what all of you are saying he isnt doing.

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by DraftBoy
Ridiculous argument and you know it. Euhus is of no comparison to Winslow just drop this one.

Why not a lot of you guys like using stats so what's the problem?

[Bulldog]

Originally posted by DraftBoy
Did you watch college football the past 3 years??

Yeah, actually I used to watch alot of Miami games as I like to follow the Big East teams. You never did answer the question regarding how KW II was so dominating serving as a back up to Shockey. Let examine his past three years at Miami:

2001 (FRESHMAN): One of four true freshmen to play for Miami during the run to the national championship... gifted receiver who moved to tight end during the season after starting out as a wide receiver... made excellent progress as both a receiver and a special teams player on kickoff coverage... made six tackles on special teams during the regular season (three unassisted) and one fumble recovery... caught two passes for 34 yards, both from reserve quarterback Derrick Crudup... first catch came in the victory at Pittsburgh, a 15-yarder in the fourth quarter... his other catch was a 19-yard reception against West Virginia... made two tackles on kickoff coverage in the Rose Bowl victory over Nebraska.

2002 (SOPHOMORE): A finalist for the John Mackey Award, given annually to college football’s top tight end... a 2002 first-team All-American by CNNSI.com... a first-team All-BIG EAST honoree in his first season as the starter, as selected by league head coaches... compiled the most productive receiving year ever by a Miami tight end, in terms of catches, yards and touchdowns, exceeding marks set by Glenn Dennison (54 for 594 in 1983) and Jeremy Shockey (7 TD catches in 2001)... led the team in receptions with 57 catches for 726 yards and eight touchdowns, averaging 12.7 yards per catch... second on the team in receiving yards (726)... was the team’s leading receiver in six games... had a monster game in the Fiesta Bowl against Ohio State, nabbing 11 catches for 122 yards and a touchdown... grabbed a seven-yard scoring toss from Ken Dorsey to give the Hurricanes the lead (24-17) in the first overtime of the National Championship Game against the Buckeyes... his 11 catches against OSU set a Miami bowl record... made two catches for 25 yards, including an 11-yard touchdown reception, against Virginia Tech... caught three passes for 64 yards at Syracuse, including a 33-yard catch and run... had four catches for 43 yards against Pittsburgh... made five receptions for 67 yards, including an 11-yard touchdown reception against Tennessee... recorded six receptions for 74 yards, including a one yard touchdown reception against Rutgers... caught four passes for 64 yards, including a 58 yard reception in the win over West Virginia... had six receptions for 84 yards including a five yard touchdown grab and a 27 yard reception, setting career highs in every category... made two catches in the game against Connecticut for thirty yards... had five receptions for 32 yards and one touchdown, including a 20-yarder against Boston College... made three receptions for 43 yards, including a 26-yarder, and a touchdown against the Owls... had four receptions for 42 yards, including a 14-yarder, against Florida... made a solid starting debut at tight end in the season opener against Florida A&M, grabbing two passes for 36 yards and one touchdown... had a 24-yard reception, in addition to a 12-yard touchdown grab, against the Rattlers.

And I've already posted his numbers from last season. So Draftboy, explain to me how Winslow has dominated college football the past three years. He had one good season in the past three years.

And one last question. Have you had your head out of Winslow's ass enough in the past three years to watch any college football yourself?

[Bulldog]

Check this article out.

http://www61.overture.com/d/sr/?xargs=05u3hs9yoaj0UOsTCChBiFX47FL%2BVQrcaGYqAToomDMaMVWi0tr%2FbfQQVebxL7vXLuf8%2B2GQfOGqRLW64v2c%2BJs%2B6txjD84FZ7Jp%2FJfMikJnmz%2FykijLMl5TTAEy%2BPmLbOtG5egjKrhCmKzCCkC%2BbxADiokuewkbluLfrFkhUVgAhznOmQHJTWD4fZ%2Bbqu6NGN6jaLanXG1wRilQVAKWUFTQ6pWD777f2SMausex6Ds6774e%2FIPgZ42gH6lzQ3Tg%3D%3D&yargs=http%3A%2F%2Fsports.espn.go.com%2Fnfl%2Fnews%2Fstory%3Fid%3D1849378

I guess this answers the question about the contract offer:

Collins said the Browns proposed a deal that matched the one that safety Sean Taylor, the No. 5 pick and Winslow's college teammate, signed this week with Washington.

Taylor's package included a $7.2 million signing bonus that could exceed $13 million if he reaches incentives. The contract can reportedly escalate to $40 million over its length.

[DraftBoy]

If you watch so many Miami games than please explain to me how you can not possibly see the skill this kid posses. As you and I both know the skill is not in the stats. Every single team in the country was Dbl'ing him and playing safeties not LB's on him. His only downfall is that he lacks the neccessary blocking skills to become on elite TE which I for one think he will develop in time. If you watched all those games like you say (and I dont doubt it..) then how can you possibly not say Winslow dominated. What other TE in the NCAA comanded DT's? What other TE in the NCAA was more feared than he last season? Certainly not Ben Watson. Winslow was a primary target and nobody can discount Berlin's consistent suckiness. As for my head up Winslow's ass, Id say its far from it, in fact I was one of the ones who was in favor of not drafting him should he fall to us bc of this very reason. This whole argument is about one thing. Which side of the story you believe. Cleveland's side of Winslow's side?

[DraftBoy]

Originally posted by Bulldog
Check this article out.

http://www61.overture.com/d/sr/?xargs=05u3hs9yoaj0UOsTCChBiFX47FL%2BVQrcaGYqAToomDMaMVWi0tr%2FbfQQVebxL7vXLuf8%2B2GQfOGqRLW64v2c%2BJs%2B6txjD84FZ7Jp%2FJfMikJnmz%2FykijLMl5TTAEy%2BPmLbOtG5egjKrhCmKzCCkC%2BbxADiokuewkbluLfrFkhUVgAhznOmQHJTWD4fZ%2Bbqu6NGN6jaLanXG1wRilQVAKWUFTQ6pWD777f2SMausex6Ds6774e%2FIPgZ42gH6lzQ3Tg%3D%3D&yargs=http%3A%2F%2Fsports.espn.go.com%2Fnfl%2Fnews%2Fstory%3Fid%3D1849378

I guess this answers the question about the contract offer:

Collins said the Browns proposed a deal that matched the one that safety Sean Taylor, the No. 5 pick and Winslow's college teammate, signed this week with Washington.

Taylor's package included a $7.2 million signing bonus that could exceed $13 million if he reaches incentives. The contract can reportedly escalate to $40 million over its length.

As reported on PTI the deal matched that of Taylor's in potential money but fell well short in the area of guaranteed money which is where I think he has a right to decline the contract since he was offered less then where he drafted should of been offered, regardless of the potential of the deal.

[HenryRules]

Winslow was a finalist for the Mackey as a sophomore and the winner as his senior year. How is that one good season in 3?

[Bulldog]

Originally posted by HenryRules
Winslow was a finalist for the Mackey as a sophomore and the winner as his senior year. How is that one good season in 3?

Thats good, because Winslow left Miami after his junior year and was a back up to Shockey his freshman year. Like I said, his only real good season was his sophmore year. Obviously, if you look at his stats from his junior year, he won the award on his last name only.

[tampabay25690]

I will be honest this was the guy I wanted to see as a Buffalo Bill!!!!

I just don't like the way these teams are spending money this year the bonuses are huge. But I did here a little thing yesterday about the Tv deals with the Nfl they think the salary cap might go up to 90 million next year if the contracts are reached. That would be around 10 million more then this year if I am correct....

What WInslow is looking for is just unbeliveable..

[Bulldog]

Originally posted by tampabay25690
I will be honest this was the guy I wanted to see as a Buffalo Bill!!!!

I just don't like the way these teams are spending money this year the bonuses are huge. But I did here a little thing yesterday about the Tv deals with the Nfl they think the salary cap might go up to 90 million next year if the contracts are reached. That would be around 10 million more then this year if I am correct....

What WInslow is looking for is just unbeliveable..

Being from Florida, and having more exposure to Hurricanes football, would you agree that Winslow did not have a great junior season for the Canes?

[Billsouth]

there is no doubt that winslow has the talent to be one of the greatest ever. he has better hands than gonzales and is just as fast if not faster.

the only potential problem that may cause his career to become one big train wreck is his TEN CENT HEAD!!!

he needs to prove he is the best before he starts making demands like it.

[Bulldog]

Originally posted by Billsouth
he needs to prove he is the best before he starts making demands like it.

BINGO!

[HenryRules]

Originally posted by Bulldog
Thats good, because Winslow left Miami after his junior year and was a back up to Shockey his freshman year. Like I said, his only real good season was his sophmore year. Obviously, if you look at his stats from his junior year, he won the award on his last name only.

It was a typo, I had it right earlier. Still, he won it as a junior and was a finalist as a soph.

If you <i>only</i> look at his stats, then yes, he didn't deserve the award last year. However, if you <i>only</i> look at the game film, then he did deserve it.

[Bulldog]

Originally posted by HenryRules
It was a typo, I had it right earlier. Still, he won it as a junior and was a finalist as a soph.

If you <i>only</i> look at his stats, then yes, he didn't deserve the award last year. However, if you <i>only</i> look at the game film, then he did deserve it.

Considering that he's know as a pass catching TE, what exactly will the game film show me? His stats show that he didn't put up tremendous numbers in that area. The one knock on him coming out of Miami was that he needed to work on his blocking skills to become a complete TE. Maybe he won the award because he is a soldier.