Cutdown time: What is the right POSITION mix?

[lordofgun]

Excellent article from our own John Doe. It's a couple of years old, but very good.

There is constant speculation as to how many players will be
kept at a certain postion on the 53-man roster. Four running backs? Six wide recievers? Five safeties? All you have to do is to look at the mix from last year to see what the philosophy of the front office is as far as the proper balance is concerned.
<p>
There are only 53 slots on the roster. Start out by dedicating one spot for a place kicker, one for a punter, and one for the third QB - these are basic assumptions for any team. That leaves 50 spots for the rest of the squad. Also assume a balance for offence and defense - 25 per side. Now we can start our basic analysis by assuming, for the time being, that there are two players for every one of the 11 positions on each side of the ball. That would be 22 men per side, leaving only three spots per side for an extra man at certain postions.
<p>
On offense these 3 extra spots are usually allocated as
follows: tight end, wide reciever, and running back (remember that QB is already covered).
<p>
Some teams that run a two-tight end set or an "H-back" set a majority of the time can do with only one fullback. There are some running backs that can play fullback as well, but there are usually no more that five positions slotted between the running back and fullback spots combined.
<p>
The offensive line can do without the extra man, and in some cases, it can do with nine spots instead of ten. There is the possibility that one of the O-line spots is occupied by a dedicated "long snapper" unless one of the other linemen or a tight-end can do the job. If there is no dedicated long-snapper and there are a few linemen who can play more than position, it is possible to get along with only nine, and that would free up a spot for an extra man at another postion on the offense. Last year, the Bills went with into the season with 10 on the line and the long snapper was a tight end.
<p>
In the case of a 4/3 defense, the 3 extra spots are usually
allocated as follows: cornerback, linebacker, and one lineman. Last year, the lineman was a tackle. Typically, a big linebacker or a quick tackle can fill in at defensive end for added depth at that spot. One of the linebacking spots usually goes to a good special teams player. A team usually carries five corners in case of injury and for "dime" packages. The strongest corner can usually fill in at a saftey spot in a pinch. It is usually much harder for a safety to fill in at the corner.
<p>
Thus, the mix for a Bills' team with a 4/3 defense and a
standard offense is as follows:
<p>
3 QB's<br>
3 Running Backs<br>
2 Full Backs<br>
5 Wide Receivers<Br>
3 Tight Ends<Br>
10 Offensive Linemen<br>
<p>
4 Defensive Ends<br>
5 Defensive Tackles<br>
7 Linebackers<Br>
4 Safeties<br>
5 Corners<br>
<p>
2 Kickers
<p>
This is mix is not set in stone, but it is highly probable
based on how the team was put together last year.

[Mr. Miyagi]

<p>
3 QB's - Drew, Brown, Losman
3 Running Backs - Henry, McGahee, Simonton
2 Full Backs - Shelton, Lawton
5 Wide Receivers - Moulds, Evans, Reed, Shaw, Aiken
3 Tight Ends - Campbell, Euhus, Neufeld
10 Offensive Linemen - Jennings, Sullivan, Pucillo, Tucker, Teague, Koons, Villarrial, L. Smith, M. Williams, M. Price
<p>
4 Defensive Ends - Denney, Kelsay, Schobel, Gildon
5 Defensive Tackles - Adams, Bannan, Pat Williams, Edwards, Anderson
7 Linebackers - Spikes, Posey, Fletcher, Stamer, Crowell, Stevenson, Francis
4 Safeties - Milloy, Reese, Wire, Prioleau
5 Corners - Clements, Vincent, McGee, Thomas, Greer
<p>
2 Kickers
<p>

[That Guy]

I agree with a lot of that. However, I think Joe Burns is on the team for sure (bouncing out Lawton or Simonton). I also think that either Antonio Brown or Clarence Coleman is going to make the team. If it's Brown, I'd say that an extra linebacker will be gone. If it's Coleman, I think there'll be the surprise cut of Bobby Shaw.

On the line, I think that Sobieski makes the team.. and possibly also McFarland. This would knock out Lawrence Smith and/or Asa Francis.

[casdhf]

<p>
3 QB's - Drew, Brown, Losman
3 Running Backs - Henry, McGahee, Williams
2 Full Backs - Shelton, Burns
5 Wide Receivers - Moulds, Evans, Reed, Shaw, Aiken
4 Tight Ends - Campbell, Euhus, Neufeld, Peters
9 Offensive Linemen - Jennings, Sullivan, Pucillo, Tucker, Teague, Sobienski, Villarrial, M. Williams, M. Price
<p>
4 Defensive Ends - Denney, Kelsay, Schobel, Gildon
5 Defensive Tackles - Adams, Bannan, Pat Williams, Edwards, Anderson
6 Linebackers - Spikes, Posey, Fletcher, Stamer, Crowell, Stevenson
5 Safeties - Milloy, Reese, Wire, Prioleau, Scrub FS
4 Corners - Clements, Vincent, McGee, Thomas
<p>
2 Kickers - 1 late FA addition
<p>

[That Guy]

I don't think they'd ever go with four corners... if one were to get hurt we wouldn't have a dime back really. No need for an extra FS... we already have three guys that can play the position.

[John Doe]

I believe that last year the Bills went with only 2 QB's and 6 wide receivers at the start of the year.

The guy who wrote that article doesn't know what he's talking about.

[That Guy]

Not all teams follow the same mold... that's just a road that the typical team takes.

[G. Host]

Situation has changed with practice squad changes.

I think the Bills try to put multiple alternate KR / DB / WR on Practice Squad in case whomever they select fails to perform.

I hope they go like they did last year with 2 QBs and take a chance Drew will be able last until Losman is ready.
That is one additional slot to use.

[casdhf]

Originally posted by John Doe
I believe that last year the Bills went with only 2 QB's and 6 wide receivers at the start of the year.

The guy who wrote that article doesn't know what he's talking about.


Originally posted by lordofgun
Excellent article from our own John Doe. It's a couple of years old, but very good.


:::

[Ingtar33]

Just a shot in the dark (from watching one camp practice)

Quarterbacks: Bledsoe: Brown; Losman (cut: Zolman)
Running Backs: Henry; McGahee; Williams; Burns (cut: Mitchell; Smith; Simonton)
Full Backs: Shelton (cut: Lawton) **Lawton on P.S.
Wide Receivers: Moulds; Reed; Evans; Aiken; Coleman (cut: Bonner; Brown; Myers; Shaw; Beard; Haddad) **Beard on P.S.
Tight Ends: Campbell; Euhus; Peters (cut: Neufield; Trafford)
Offensive Linemen: Jennings; Pucillo; Teague; Villarrial; Williams; Price; Tucker; Sobienski; Dorenbos; Smith (cut: Seals; Koons; McFarland; Sullivan; Porter; Esposito) **Koons on P.S.

Defensive Ends: Kelsay; Schobel; Denney; McKenzie (cut: Spincer; Ritzmann)
Defensive Tackles: Williams; Adams; Gibson; Anderson; Edwards (cut: Bannan; Sape)
Linebackers: Spikes; Fletcher; Posey; Gildon; Francis; Haggan; Crowell (cut: Stamer; Stevenson; Towns) **Towns on P.S.
Safeties: Wire; Milloy; Reese; Prioleau (cut: Graham) **Graham on P.S.
Corners: Vincent; Clements; Thomas; McGee; Greer (cut: Richardson; Lamar; Dixson)

Kickers: Moorman; Lindell

[Dozerdog]

What does Coleman bring that Shaw does not?

If Aiken goes down or reed gets hurt- I'm a hell of a lot more confident in Shaw than Coleman

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by Dozerdog
What does Coleman bring that Shaw does not?

If Aiken goes down or reed gets hurt- I'm a hell of a lot more confident in Shaw than Coleman

It probably depends on how the coaches feel Coleman has come along since last year and Shaw is a finished product Coleman can get better. We'll find out what Coleman has in preseason.

[casdhf]

I hope Bannan makes this team, I think he can be a solid backup!

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by casdhf
I hope Bannan makes this team, I think he can be a solid backup!

He has been for 3 years now. He need to step up. I think Edwards and Gibson and Anderson are better though.

[lordofgun]

Originally posted by Dozerdog
What does Coleman bring that Shaw does not?

If Aiken goes down or reed gets hurt- I'm a hell of a lot more confident in Shaw than Coleman

Coleman showed a lot last preseason. He brings youth, and word from training camp is that Shaw has lost a step.

[That Guy]

I think they'll keep McFarland... basically because I don't think they'll keep ONLY four players from their draft.

[Ingtar33]

From what I saw, Smith looked good at guard (good enough I cut Sullivan)... and a 7th rounder has no "special" right to a roster spot... perhaps he'll be put in the PS.

but then again it was just one practice.


On Shaw: he's making more than Coleman, and in the salary cap age, when you have two players of equal or similar skill competing for what amounts as the 4th or 5th WR spot, you cut the guy making more.

Shaw's not good enough to justify keeping.

On Bannan: the line is better cutting him and Sape. He’s just not good enough.

[juice]

Originally posted by Ingtar33
From what I saw, Smith looked good at guard (good enough I cut Sullivan)... and a 7th rounder has no "special" right to a roster spot... perhaps he'll be put in the PS.



I'd keep Sullivan around, he has had experience as a starter in this unit and didn't do too bad, maybe McNally can motivate him. Has MS even had a chance this Camp, he's a big body with some mobility.

With the lack of depth it would be hard to cut a lineman with starting experience without giving McNally a chance to help him regain starters form.

[Ingtar33]

you don't understand juice... he was practicing against the 3rd stringers... and frankly looked like a tub of lard. He is playing himself off the team.

[juice]

Originally posted by Ingtar33
you don't understand juice... he was practicing against the 3rd stringers... and frankly looked like a tub of lard. He is playing himself off the team.

You have a 1st hand account of him, there aren't many pictures of MS floating around here so I can accept your observation.

With our O-Line situation I would hate to say that the "Sullivan Experiment" was another O-Line waste of Time.

Can our Line situation get any worse?

Ing. I hope you were one of those who suggested we address the O-Line Issues in the draft, What was the Bills Brass thinking about?

[Ingtar33]

I was Juice... and I was a huge critic of the draft for the fact we didn't get any o-line help.

Here's a point. I was looking up Smith after seeing him take time both as starting left guard and right guard (and looking not bad), turns out he was a Raven's PS player last year... and that he was a Tackle until he came here. Think about that, a PS Tackle, is getting 1st and 2nd team reps and looking better than the pieces of crap we have on the field.

But then again, it was just one practice...

[Earthquake Enyart]

Originally posted by Ingtar33
I was Juice... and I was a huge critic of the draft for the fact we didn't get any o-line help.

Here's a point. I was looking up Smith after seeing him take time both as starting left guard and right guard (and looking not bad), turns out he was a Raven's PS player last year... and that he was a Tackle until he came here. Think about that, a PS Tackle, is getting 1st and 2nd team reps and looking better than the pieces of crap we have on the field.

But then again, it was just one practice...


I agree with you 100%.

But who is gonna run back kicks, given your roster?

[Ebenezer]

Originally posted by Earthquake Enyart
I agree with you 100%.

But who is gonna run back kicks, given your roster?

that is where Aiken loses his roster spot to Antonio Brown...and that gives Shaw the nod over Coleman (only chance to make the team is on ST).

[Earthquake Enyart]

Originally posted by Ebenezer
that is where Aiken loses his roster spot to Antonio Brown...and that gives Shaw the nod over Coleman (only chance to make the team is on ST).

Agree with the first part, but I'm with Ing and Coleman on the second part.

[The Spaz]

Fools!!!:bling::100:

[G. Host]

Cutting 'Sulking' Sullivan always sounds like a good idea to me unless we are trading him instead. That is one bad and sour apple.

Last year there basically was no WR coach. Shaw made the roster because he knew Gilbride's system but Coleman has more talent and possible upside. And those WRs spend most of their time on special teams which means a younger and hungrier WR is a better fit.

Trade Shaw and Sullivan to Redsucks - they were both players GW favored.


Originally posted by Ingtar33
From what I saw, Smith looked good at guard (good enough I cut Sullivan)... and a 7th rounder has no "special" right to a roster spot... perhaps he'll be put in the PS.

but then again it was just one practice.


On Shaw: he's making more than Coleman, and in the salary cap age, when you have two players of equal or similar skill competing for what amounts as the 4th or 5th WR spot, you cut the guy making more.

Shaw's not good enough to justify keeping.

[Throne Logic]

Originally posted by Earthquake Enyart
But who is gonna run back kicks, given your roster?

Anyone. Brown didn't exactly shine last year. Let McGee or Aiken run back kicks. Neither could do much worse.

[Michael82]

Quarterbacks: Bledsoe, Brown, Losman
Running Backs: Henry, McGahee,
Full Backs: Shelton, Burns
Wide Receivers: Moulds, Evans, Reed, Aiken, Shaw, Brown
Tight Ends: Campbell, Euhus, Peters
Offensive Linemen: Jennings, Tucker, Teague, Villarrial, Williams, Price, Pucillo, Sobieski, Sullivan

Defensive Ends: Schobel, Kelsay, Denney, McKenzie
Defensive Tackles: Williams, Adams, Edwards, Anderson, Bannan
Linebackers: Spikes, Fletcher, Posey, Gildon, Stevenson, Stamer
Corners: Vincent, Clements, McGee, Thomas, Greer
Safeties: Milloy, Reese, Wire, Baker

Kickers: Lindell, Moorman
Longsnapper: Dorenbos

[HenryRules]

Sullivan is in his 4th year and from what I've heard he's our 4th OT and I think two of the people ahead of him are younger than him ... to me that screams "CUT ME!!"

I'm suprised so many people have Gibson getting cut. I think our DT's are going to be Adams, Williams, Gibson, Anderson, and Bannan.

[The Spaz]

Originally posted by HenryRules
Sullivan is in his 4th year and from what I've heard he's our 4th OT and I think two of the people ahead of him are younger than him ... to me that screams "CUT ME!!"

I'm suprised so many people have Gibson getting cut. I think our DT's are going to be Adams, Williams, Gibson, Anderson, and Bannan.

I agree accept Edwards will be staying and Bannan gone.

[ShadowHawk7]

I wouldn't care much if we cut Brown, even though he's been impressive returning at camp. I could live with McGee, then Coleman at KR, at McGee at PR.

[Sabre Ally]

Brown was impressive returning last year, too........during preseason. After that, he was average at best.