Is This Accurate???

[Hemlepp53]

To those of you who were blessed to watch the game last night is this article at all accurate?

http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=citadel-2_284112_24&prov=citadel&type=lgns

[Michael82]

:couch: :gag:

[Ebenezer]

saw the by-line...didn't read any further.

[Mr. Miyagi]

Who reads that junk?

[Hemlepp53]

Originally posted by Mr. Miyagi
Who reads that junk?

It's from BillReport.com ... Just Used the Yahoo Link!!!

[Bulldog]

I started to read it, and it suddenly dawned on me that I have read that article about 50 other times. I just want to know how he can put that interception on Drew. I am not a huge Drew supporter, but Moulds should have had that ball. As for the rest of the article, I didn't bother reading it.

[justasportsfan]

He makes some good points. If the bills' 1st O is as horrible as it was last night (i doubt it though) we will be a .500 team thanks to the D.

[Michael82]

Originally posted by Bulldog
I just want to know how he can put that interception on Drew. I am not a huge Drew supporter, but Moulds should have had that ball.

I agree with you and if Moulds caught that pass... your starting Quarterback, Drew Bledsoe would have been 5/6 for about 54 yards and honestly, in a regular game...Moulds would have came down with it and gotten the TD. So....

Drew Bledsoe 5/6, 54 yards and 1 TD, with no INTs.

That's pretty good IMO. :up:

[Earthquake Enyart]

What a surprise. He loves Losman. :snicker:

[Jan Reimers]

My God, it's the first preseason game and nearly everything and everybody sucks, with Bledsoe leading the clown parade, of course. What useless drivel.

If we had Johnny Unitas reincarnated and Jim Brown and Jerry Rice in their primes, plus the Steel Curtain backed up by the Purple Gang, ole' Mark would probably have us 8-8 at best.

[carybillsfan]

I don't understand how someone so consumed with hating the Bills continues to write on them. Besides it was only preseason, I thought the 1st team offense wasn't great but how can you get into the flow of the game when you only play 3 series. The defense looked good and I don't think there was 1 offensive holding call on the first team, boy do I miss Rueben!!!

[Mr. Miyagi]

Originally posted by Earthquake Enyart
What a surprise. He loves Losman. :snicker:
For him it's anyone but Drew, regardless if his name is Rob Johnson, Travis Brown, Jeff Blake, or JP Losman. :rolleyes:

[wazz]

what a load of crap... who is this guy? does he write much bills stuff?

mcgahee was over 4yrds a carry for a start not "He averaged about 3.5 yards-per-carry"

and...

"Losman's play should have Bills fans drooling with anticipation however. If such play continues throughout the preseason then fans can expect to see Losman starting by midseason."

i'm not even going to finish leaving, that report is amateurish and laughable

[casdhf]

Shouldn't this article be posted on profootbaltalk.com?

[BAM]

blah blah blah bledsoe sucks blah blah blah.

some old worthless drivel

[Earthquake Enyart]

Originally posted by Jan Reimers
My God, it's the first preseason game and nearly everything and everybody sucks, with Bledsoe leading the clown parade, of course. What useless drivel.

If we had Johnny Unitas reincarnated and Jim Brown and Jerry Rice in their primes, plus the Steel Curtain backed up by the Purple Gang, ole' Mark would probably have us 8-8 at best.

If we had Johnny Unitas, he'd have been the guy crying for Earl Morral to start.

If we had Bradshaw, he'd be crying that Hanratty should be playing.

[JJamezz]

Originally posted by carybillsfan
I don't understand how someone so consumed with hating the Bills continues to write on them.

I've been wondering that for a LONG time...

[Jan Reimers]

Originally posted by Earthquake Enyart
If we had Johnny Unitas, he'd have been the guy crying for Earl Morral to start.

If we had Bradshaw, he'd be crying that Hanratty should be playing.

Yeah, and if we had Otto Graham, he'd be hollering for George Ratterman.

[Dozerdog]

Did he go to the game? I'm pretty sure he does not have a dish. Did he write this off off the play-by-play on NFL.com?

[Dozerdog]

Originally posted by Jan Reimers
Yeah, and if we had Otto Graham, he'd be hollering for George Ratterman.

Man you are old!!! :abe:

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by Bulldog
I started to read it, and it suddenly dawned on me that I have read that article about 50 other times. I just want to know how he can put that interception on Drew. I am not a huge Drew supporter, but Moulds should have had that ball. As for the rest of the article, I didn't bother reading it.

ditto.

[LtBillsFan66]

Originally posted by Dozerdog
Did he go to the game? I'm pretty sure he does not have a dish. Did he write this off off the play-by-play on NFL.com?

lol!

I remember he used to preface his diatribes here with "I didn"t watch the game, but..."

The guy's a ***** joke.

[Earthquake Enyart]

If we had Jack Kemp, he'd be crying for Lamonica.

Ooops. That one he may have been right.

[Jan Reimers]

Originally posted by Dozerdog
Man you are old!!! :abe:

Ancient. But young at heart.

[Jeff1220]

Originally posted by wazz
what a load of crap... who is this guy? does he write much bills stuff?

mcgahee was over 4yrds a carry for a start not "He averaged about 3.5 yards-per-carry"

You have to understand, this is the way he does his math - you take away the RB's longest runs (usually 10 yards and over), then figure the YPC on all the other runs.


I'm not kidding. That's really how he figured it.

[Hemlepp53]

Originally posted by wazz
what a load of crap... who is this guy? does he write much bills stuff?

mcgahee was over 4yrds a carry for a start not "He averaged about 3.5 yards-per-carry"

and...

"Losman's play should have Bills fans drooling with anticipation however. If such play continues throughout the preseason then fans can expect to see Losman starting by midseason."

i'm not even going to finish leaving, that report is amateurish and laughable

He writes for BillReport.com

[The Spaz]

:monkey:***'* articles and thoughts.

[Hemlepp53]

Anyone able to tell me if the Game will be shown tonight on Regular CABLE TV .. Some Jackass FinFan told em it was susposed to be TV tonight on either ESPN or some toher channel.. Anyone know of this???? If so a little info would be nice

[Kelly The Dog]

I liked the part about taking away 16 yards from a run by Willis out of his 58, and saying he only averaged 3.5 yards without it (where have we heard THAT before) but then went on about how Quentin Griffin and his 44 yards were so great against our defense (when he had about a 12 yard run, too).

[Michael82]

Originally posted by Hemlepp53
Anyone able to tell me if the Game will be shown tonight on Regular CABLE TV .. Some Jackass FinFan told em it was susposed to be TV tonight on either ESPN or some toher channel.. Anyone know of this???? If so a little info would be nice

Monday7:00 pmMONDAY NIGHT COUNTDOWN
8:00 pmSEATTLE SEAHAWKS VS
GREEN BAY PACKERS

[Michael82]

Originally posted by Kelly The Dog
I liked the part about taking away 16 yards from a run by Willis out of his 58, and saying he only averaged 3.5 yards without it (where have we heard THAT before) but then went on about how Quentin Griffin and his 44 yards were so great against our defense (when he had about a 12 yard run, too).

Wasn't the "take away the longest run" thing exactly what he used to do with Henry? :scratch:

[The_Philster]

Originally posted by Mikey82
Wasn't the "take away the longest run" thing exactly what he used to do with Henry? :scratch:

yep

[The Spaz]

The sky in this guys world must be purple.

[Novacane]

Originally posted by Mikey82
Wasn't the "take away the longest run" thing exactly what he used to do with Henry? :scratch:



:rofl: That made absolutely no sense at all. And I like Mark too.

[Voltron]

Same ole same ole. BASH BASH BASH.

:rolleyes:

God forbid someone have a differing opinion. :tomato:

If any of you think the starting O looked good then I think you should watch it again. Not only was I at the game but I TIVOed it and they looked like crap! Travis looked good, JP was AWSOME, and Drew did not impress me at all. One thing I did notice was that he is getting the ball out faster when he throws but as usual he can't throw a short to medium pass with any consistency especially to the left side. The starting O-line was a sad site to watch and it started with Teague. He was pushed back on almost every play. You can't expect Drew to get a quick release when he has no place to step! Big Mike better get his act together and fast! He is sorely needed when a 1500-yard back gets a 1 YPC average. I would have to say Mark brought up a lot of good points and if Vic Carruchi or Pat Kirwan said the same thing half of you would agree with it. :mad:

[Novacane]

V, I agree people here go to crazy over Wys' articles. You have to admit though it hurts his arguements when he says our running game sucks if you take away the longest runs and then in the same article says our run D was not that good. If you take away Denvers longest runs our run D was great. You can't have it both ways.

[Michael82]

Originally posted by Voltron
Same ole same ole. BASH BASH BASH.

:rolleyes:

God forbid someone have a differing opinion. :tomato:

If any of you think the starting O looked good then I think you should watch it again. Not only was I at the game but I TIVOed it and they looked like crap! Travis looked good, JP was AWSOME, and Drew did not impress me at all. One thing I did notice was that he is getting the ball out faster when he throws but as usual he can't throw a short to medium pass with any consistency especially to the left side. The starting O-line was a sad site to watch and it started with Teague. He was pushed back on almost every play. You can't expect Drew to get a quick release when he has no place to step! Big Mike better get his act together and fast! He is sorely needed when a 1500-yard back gets a 1 YPC average. I would have to say Mark brought up a lot of good points and if Vic Carruchi or Pat Kirwan said the same thing half of you would agree with it. :mad:

I disagree. The Bills starting offense did exactly what they were planning on. If Moulds holds onto the ball...they would get a TD and Bledsoe suddenly turns into a hero...

5/6 for 54 yards and 1 touchdown

Here's the problem that I have with your theory about Bledsoe. If there was no consistency...then how did you only miss 2 completions? I agree that people are being rough on Mark, however...he is a media guy and the people would be doing the same thing if Larry Felser or one of the jackasses from the D&C was saying it. It's the same old, Bledsoe sucks, McGahee was only running 3.5 yards per carry, because you can't include the longest run. Well, you know what? We're sick of it. I like Mark and all. He's a great guy, but he needs to get off his high horse and change things around once in a while. If he were selling his articles....he would be losing money each week...because it's the same stuff and it gets VERY repetitive.

[Michael82]

Originally posted by Fairway To Green
V, I agree people here go to crazy over Wys' articles. You have to admit though it hurts his arguements when he says our running game sucks if you take away the longest runs and then in the same article says our run D was not that good. If you take away Denvers longest runs our run D was great. You can't have it both ways.

Thank you! :bf1:

[Voltron]

Originally posted by Fairway To Green
V, I agree people here go to crazy over Wys' articles. You have to admit though it hurts his arguements when he says our running game sucks if you take away the longest runs and then in the same article says our run D was not that good. If you take away Denvers longest runs our run D was great. You can't have it both ways.

I do agree with that point but you can't say that his articles are BS just because of one thing he does. He has some excellent points that ring very true. In fact most of the things I read in his article were some of the same things that Murph and the other post game guys said on 96.9 and 103.3! If people disagree with it, tells us why, don’t just say everything he writes is crap and shouldn’t be believed. Especially when most of what he is saying is echoed by a large majority of other sports writers and reporters!

[Throne Logic]

Originally posted by Mikey82
Here's the problem that I have with your theory about Bledsoe. If there was no consistency...then how did you only miss 2 completions?

I think what he meant was that this Offense has no flow to it at this point. Part of that is consistency, but it's more along the lines of it being pretty herky-jerky as Bledsoe and Co. lurch in uneven chunks down the field while sputtering for nothing in between.

I agree with that. This is exactly what they looked like last season, in that regard. I rewatched 2003's Game 1 vs. the Pats. Remember that 30-0 drubbing? Well, I hate to break it to you, but the Offense looked exactly the same in that game as in the rest of the games. The only differences were that the Pats helped us out with numerous penalties and blunders and Buffalo caught a couple of lucky breaks.

No rythme. May Mularky help them find their rythme. Perhaps he should start playing music for them during practice instead of Drew's alarm clock.

[Throne Logic]

Originally posted by Jeff1220
You have to understand, this is the way he does his math - you take away the RB's longest runs (usually 10 yards and over), then figure the YPC on all the other runs.


I'm not kidding. That's really how he figured it.


Mark puts WAY to much emphasis on stats.

He's half right, by the way, in regards to proper statistical analysis. When you evaluate stats, you are supposed to toss out the highest AND the lowest number in order to get the "true representation of data". This allows for anomalies.

Stats have become big in sports. Baseball did this to us. Stat's work pretty well in baseball because there are isolated situations with batter vs. pitcher in specific situations. Tendencies are more apt to occur. In football, however, there are no isolated situations. There are way to many interwoven "this depends upon that" circumstances. In fact those interwoven dependencies are pretty much responsible for making the game what it is. It just so happens that it makes statistics that much more useless as anything more than big-picture guidelines. But they are still fun.

For the record correct stat analysis for WM's yards / carry comes out to just over 3.8 yards / carry. I'll take that for a guy who is not only playing in his first NFL game, but is also coming off of one of the more miraculous rehab stories in NFL history.

[The Seahag]

I just want to know how he can put that interception on Drew.

Maybe because Drew blew the read and missed the wide open JoshReed who was 5yrds behind an overmatched nickelback for an easy TD, and instead threw a weak jumpball to a well-covered Moulds that was picked and cost the Bills 7 free points?
That would be my guess.

[BAM]

Originally posted by Voltron
I do agree with that point but you can't say that his articles are BS

His articles are grade A, fresh from the cow's anus, bull**** :up:

[casdhf]

I can't say if he makes any good points or not. I will not read his articles because of the same crap that has always been in them. You can sum them up easily:

Bledsoe Sucks. The running game was poor with the long runs taken out. The backup QB, insert any name, showed how bad Drew really is. The defense is good and will carry the team to a 6-10 record.

How close was I?

[Philagape]

It's ridiculous to ever say "throw out so-and-so's longest/shortest plays" ... That's how football stats are made, by long and short plays! If a RB has a 4-yard average per carry, does that mean he runs for 4 yards on every single play? All RBs have good plays and they get stuffed. If a RB had 15 carries of 2 yards each, but five carries of 15+ yards, that's a 100-day on 20 carries. That's an extreme example, but it illustrates the point. As long as the ball moves and a team scores, who cares what someone's average is? The scoreboard shows POINTS, not YPC.

[Hemlepp53]

If a RB has a 4-yard average per carry, does that mean he runs for 4 yards on every single play?


LoL... Ya Think Anyone Really Thought That? I Hope So.. Thats Awsome...

[BAM]

Originally posted by BAM
His articles are grade A, fresh from the cow's anus, bull**** :up:

However, Mark is a cool guy.. I've chilled with him a couple times. It's not a sin to disagree with someone though :snicker:

[Jan Reimers]

Originally posted by Mikey82
I agree that people are being rough on Mark, however...he is a media guy

Mark is a real nice guy, but as a media guy, he is a good chicken wing sauce guy.

[Ebenezer]

Originally posted by Jan Reimers
Mark is a real nice guy, but as a media guy, he is a good chicken wing sauce guy.

:snicker:

[Ebenezer]

Originally posted by Fairway To Green
V, I agree people here go to crazy over Wys' articles. You have to admit though it hurts his arguements when he says our running game sucks if you take away the longest runs and then in the same article says our run D was not that good. If you take away Denvers longest runs our run D was great. You can't have it both ways.


Originally posted by Throne Logic
Mark puts WAY to much emphasis on stats.

He's half right, by the way, in regards to proper statistical analysis. When you evaluate stats, you are supposed to toss out the highest AND the lowest number in order to get the "true representation of data". This allows for anomalies.

Give me a break...he never throws out the -6 yard loss. Stats are stats, you can cut them up any way you want. The bottom line is that the benchmark for the NFL is yards per carry. Period. WM did pretty damn well.

IMO, WYS just blows to garner attention. Same as AM talk radio crap. The act gets old really quickly. AM radio invents a topic to get callers. They explode it to get callers. They take rediculous positions to get callers. Wys is doing the same thing to get readers. In his personal world, if he is that despondant about the Bills and takes it that personally then I think he needs to put the games away for a bit, jmo.

[cordog]

If you take away the longest paragraph in his article, his SPP (Sentences per Paragraph) is only 3.5. Thats not very good

[Ebenezer]

Originally posted by cordog
If you take away the longest paragraph in his article, his SPP (Sentences per Paragraph) is only 3.5. Thats not very good

OMG POST OF THE DAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Voltron]

The sad part is that this artical was one of his shorter ones :snicker:

[Michael82]

Originally posted by Voltron
The sad part is that this artical was one of his shorter ones :snicker:

:rofl:

[HenryRules]

Originally posted by Throne Logic

He's half right, by the way, in regards to proper statistical analysis. When you evaluate stats, you are supposed to toss out the highest AND the lowest number in order to get the "true representation of data". This allows for anomalies.


No you don't.

If you want to know how much things deviate from the average ... you use standard deviation.

Tossing out the highest and lowest <i>may</i> make sense when you are dealing with a range of data that is equi-distance from the mean. However, with something like rushing results, the longest runs have a way bigger impact on the mean than the shortest runs. Removing a longest and shortest in this case completely distorts the analysis.

[Ebenezer]

Originally posted by HenryRules
No you don't.

If you want to know how much things deviate from the average ... you use standard deviation.

Tossing out the highest and lowest <i>may</i> make sense when you are dealing with a range of data that is equi-distance from the mean. However, with something like rushing results, the longest runs have a way bigger impact on the mean than the shortest runs. Removing a longest and shortest in this case completely distorts the analysis.

who let the statistician in here? :nerd:

[LtBillsFan66]

Originally posted by casdhf
I can't say if he makes any good points or not. I will not read his articles because of the same crap that has always been in them. You can sum them up easily:

Bledsoe Sucks. The running game was poor with the long runs taken out. The backup QB, insert any name, showed how bad Drew really is. The defense is good and will carry the team to a 6-10 record.

How close was I?


You must be psychic. :D

[BAM]

Originally posted by HenryRules
No you don't.

If you want to know how much things deviate from the average ... you use standard deviation.

Tossing out the highest and lowest <i>may</i> make sense when you are dealing with a range of data that is equi-distance from the mean. However, with something like rushing results, the longest runs have a way bigger impact on the mean than the shortest runs. Removing a longest and shortest in this case completely distorts the analysis.

:dizzy:

[TigerJ]

Yup, he's still Wys Guy. Someone noted that while Bledsoe was QB, Denver was playing 8 and 9 in the box basically daring Buffalo to pass. That, in addition to some poor blocking probably contributed to Travis Henry's poor showing. Weiler missed that, apparently. I did too, but then I'm not writing as some alleged expert. It can be argued that the pass to Moulds that got intercepted was a little off target, but it wasn't nearly as bad as Weiler makes it out to be. Another time Eric might have won the tug of war and gotten the ball. It's not unheard of for QBs to deliberately underthrow routes like that. No, I don't think Drew was trying to. I saw where one person argued that the throw was ill advised. I disagree with that totally. It was a third down. Either Buffalo completes a pass play or the drive is ended. I don't know that there was anyone else who was wide open. I don't think it was a desperation pass. Teams do throw downfield on third and long sometimes. It's not a terribly low percentage pass.

I thought Weiler correctly noted that a more mobile QB can cope better with poor offensive line play, but I don't know that you can blame Drew for being immobile. He is what he is, and if Buffalo wants him to be their starter, it's incumbent upon the team to build a solid line in front of him. Drew showed a quick delivery and his accuracy wasn't bad. Since he is Buffalo's starter, by Buffalo's choice, It is up to Mularkey and Clements to tinker with the offence in such a way as to take advantage of those times where defences overplay the run and dare Bledsoe to pass. Buffalo needs some pass plays that Drew can complete consistently when the defensive alignment won't let the team run effectively. McNally has to help the line perform better, particularly with blitz pickup. Drew just has to execute and be patient, and I think they'll be OK.

[BLEDSOE'S BATTALION]

"Where would you rather be than right here right now. Marv Leavy


Geez one game, a win no less and you would think that we are gonna be in the running for # 1 pick.
Are the Bills going to the Super Bowl?? Most likely not. But can at least give this team a chance to develop before we write their Obituary. After all The Regular Season is still 3 weeks away.





NEVER FORGET SEPTEMBER 11, 2001
GOD BLESS AMERICA
:patriot: :yankee: :yankee: :yankee:

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by The Seahag
Maybe because Drew blew the read and missed the wide open JoshReed who was 5yrds behind an overmatched nickelback for an easy TD, and instead threw a weak jumpball to a well-covered Moulds that was picked and cost the Bills 7 free points?
That would be my guess.

:rofl:

[Michael82]

Originally posted by Tatonka
:rofl:

Could Seahag be Wys? hmmmm.... :idunno:

[TedMock]

Originally posted by TigerJ
Yup, he's still Wys Guy. Someone noted that while Bledsoe was QB, Denver was playing 8 and 9 in the box basically daring Buffalo to pass. That, in addition to some poor blocking probably contributed to Travis Henry's poor showing. Weiler missed that, apparently. I did too, but then I'm not writing as some alleged expert. It can be argued that the pass to Moulds that got intercepted was a little off target, but it wasn't nearly as bad as Weiler makes it out to be. Another time Eric might have won the tug of war and gotten the ball. It's not unheard of for QBs to deliberately underthrow routes like that. No, I don't think Drew was trying to. I saw where one person argued that the throw was ill advised. I disagree with that totally. It was a third down. Either Buffalo completes a pass play or the drive is ended. I don't know that there was anyone else who was wide open. I don't think it was a desperation pass. Teams do throw downfield on third and long sometimes. It's not a terribly low percentage pass.

I thought Weiler correctly noted that a more mobile QB can cope better with poor offensive line play, but I don't know that you can blame Drew for being immobile. He is what he is, and if Buffalo wants him to be their starter, it's incumbent upon the team to build a solid line in front of him. Drew showed a quick delivery and his accuracy wasn't bad. Since he is Buffalo's starter, by Buffalo's choice, It is up to Mularkey and Clements to tinker with the offence in such a way as to take advantage of those times where defences overplay the run and dare Bledsoe to pass. Buffalo needs some pass plays that Drew can complete consistently when the defensive alignment won't let the team run effectively. McNally has to help the line perform better, particularly with blitz pickup. Drew just has to execute and be patient, and I think they'll be OK.

What do you know? An un-biased, sane post regarding Bledsoe! Thank you, and well put.

[Voltron]

Originally posted by BLEDSOE'S BATTALION
Geez one game, a win no less and you would think that we are gonna be in the running for # 1 pick.
Are the Bills going to the Super Bowl?? Most likely not. But can at least give this team a chance to develop before we write their Obituary. After all The Regular Season is still 3 weeks away.



Looks like we have another Ostrich Club member here :up:. Some one get the paperwork started and get his membership card ordered!!! :snicker:

[Voltron]

I saw where one person argued that the throw was ill advised. I disagree with that totally. It was a third down. Either Buffalo completes a pass play or the drive is ended. I don't know that there was anyone else who was wide open. I don't think it was a desperation pass. Teams do throw downfield on third and long sometimes. It's not a terribly low percentage pass.
Watch the Tape and you will see a wide open Josh Reed in the endzone going nuts.

[Ebenezer]

Originally posted by Voltron
Watch the Tape and you will see a wide open Josh Reed in the endzone going nuts.

I believe that it was Lee Evans...

[Voltron]

Originally posted by Ebenezer
I believe that it was Lee Evans...


I thought it was 82 but it could have been 83. He wasn't on the screen to long so I could have mistaked a 3 for a 2. I do remeber seeing it at the game for sure though.

[Ebenezer]

Originally posted by Voltron
I thought it was 82 but it could have been 83. He wasn't on the screen to long so I could have mistaked a 3 for a 2. I do remeber seeing it at the game for sure though.

yes, clump pointed it out right away...

[The Seahag]

Could Seahag be Wys? hmmmm....

Nope, I'm not Wys; hell, I'm not even wise.
I'm just a frustrated Bills fan that's been watching Drew make sh1tty decisions with the ball for the 10 years since Parcells left NE>-(



It was a third down. Either Buffalo completes a pass play or the drive is ended.
Or Drew realizes he's sitting on an easy 3 and protects the ball by actually reading the field instead of deciding before the snap that he's going to lock in on Moulds and throw it to him on 3rddown no matter what the defense gives him. Kinda like he's been doing since he got here.

And I'm pretty sure it was Reed who had been lined up in the slot and torched the Denver nickle right off the line.

[Hemlepp53]

Originally posted by Voltron
Looks like we have another Ostrich Club member here :up:. Some one get the paperwork started and get his membership card ordered!!! :snicker:

WHATS THE OSTRICH CLUB FELLAZ???

[The_Philster]

Originally posted by Hemlepp53
WHATS THE OSTRICH CLUB FELLAZ???

http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8984