Complain all you want but Tom Donahoe will be here next year...

[Ebenezer]

I'm sick of typing this every where so I thought I would just start a thread...

For all those calling for TD's head...he ain't going anywhere...

He is the GM and Prez...all he has to do is make RW happy...off the field the stands are full (7 sell outs expected this year), the boxes are full, on game day people are buying $60 golf shirts and $200 jerseys in the store (which goes into the teams coffers directly)...there are plenty of advertisers in the stadium, the rookies were signed with little signing bonus, the Bills are $5mil under the cap (direct savings to RW's pocket)...the bottom line is the bottom line...Monetarily for RW, TD has done wonders. So, let's say that RW does force him to step down as GM...who is the new GM? Bring in somebody new and you can rip it all up and start over again...or you can give it to Modrak who has been here since day 2 of TDs reign...he's been in on all the decisions...what will really change??

TD knew what he was doing when he held out for the President position...Cowher stabbed him in the back in Pittsburgh and he wasn't going to get himself in that position again...he is in complete control...he has it all...control of the personal, control of the coaches, control of the stadium, control of the employees...he is the king...as long as he can line Ralph's pockets then at worst case RW makes him step down as GM...pucker up boys...he's here to stay.

[Billz_fan]

So are you saying that RW doesn't care about winning anymore as long as the finances are in order and the Bills make Ralph money ?

Or is RW just willing to give TD 1000+ chances because his pockets are getting fat in the process ? Which really breaks down to the first scenario and question in the end.

[SABURZFAN]

i guess we'll just settle in for another 17-33 record for the next 3 years. :mad:

[FTG]

I agree. TD bombed on GW and Bledsoe. Ralph is going to give him a second chance with Mularkey and Losman. If they fail he's gone but thats gonna be at least 2 years away.

[HenryRules]

Let's see the season ticket renewal rates this upcoming offseason. TD had two scapegoats in Gregg Williams and Kevin Gilbride last season, if we have a similar record this year, we won't have a scapegoat other than him.

[RedEyE]

TD went out and got the best QB available when he signed Bledsoe. I really don't see how he could be faulted with that. The other morons available at the time where equally as usless. Bledsoe at least provide one year of acceptable services.

[HenryRules]

TD went out and got the best QB available when he signed Bledsoe. I really don't see how he could be faulted with that. The other morons available at the time where equally as usless. Bledsoe at least provide one year of acceptable services.

We overpaid a divisional foe when there were other options available. That's how I fault him. If that trade is with 28 other teams, it's not as bad ... but if you're making a trade within the division, you better come out on the upper hand.

[Typ0]

This is exactly what I was saying on the season ticket thread....that being so dedicated to buying the tickets to a perpetually crappy team is counter-productive. IMHO TD is a budget manager. He's very frugal and knows how to keep the product just over marginally well so it looks good and has a chance. There will be years under his reign where things click and the team does reasonably well...but we will never be over the hump of winning a championship in this league because of his hiring and draft style. I'd much rather suffer through four crappy years....two good ones and a championship season than just a bunch of crappy are marginally good years. We are going to have the second option with TD. As long as people have the attitude "i'm going to buy tickets no matter how bad the team is or what the outlook is" management is not motivated to do anything about it. Buying tickets is like voting...it's your chance to make a difference.

[Typ0]

TD went out and got the best QB available when he signed Bledsoe. I really don't see how he could be faulted with that. The other morons available at the time where equally as usless. Bledsoe at least provide one year of acceptable services.

I agree with that...but he lacked the commitment to what DB brought to the team. He failed to put a system and staff in place where DB could be successful. If you are going to make the trade for a franchise player like that you don't screw him right from the get go.

[RedEyE]

We overpaid a divisional foe when there were other options available. That's how I fault him. If that trade is with 28 other teams, it's not as bad ... but if you're making a trade within the division, you better come out on the upper hand.


I can't say I disagree with you there, but you have to look at all sides of negotiations. Pats weren't ready to part with Bledsoe at first, and he was the cream of the crop at the time. The Bills had no one, and would have been going into the season with AVP had we not signed him.


I believe he did what he needed to do to enhance the team at that particular time. Without utilizing hindsight, I really can't see what else TD could have done.

Let's not forget, that Bledsoe's first year with the Bills produced a high powered offense. His performance is just now rapidly depleting.

[RedEyE]

I agree with that...but he lacked the commitment to what DB brought to the team. He failed to put a system and staff in place where DB could be successful. If you are going to make the trade for a franchise player like that you don't screw him right from the get go.


The signing of Bledsoe and the work on the Sal cap is where my backing up TD ceases. I agree with everything else stated about his horrible decision making.

[Voltron]

Eb I won't argue that fact at all. It doesn't mean I am on his bandwagon anymore. His Honeymoon is over with me and I gave him 3 years for a honeymoon! :shakeno:

[Ebenezer]

We overpaid a divisional foe when there were other options available.


Here we go again...we fought this battle for almost two years...please, again, tell me who the options were and that they were available and willing to come here...i'll save you the trouble...the only option was Jeff Blake...he sucked, got cut and didn't want to come here in the first place.

[HenryRules]

Here we go again...we fought this battle for almost two years...please, again, tell me who the options were and that they were available and willing to come here...i'll save you the trouble...the only option was Jeff Blake...he sucked, got cut and didn't want to come here in the first place.

First, I was a fan of the Bledsoe trade and am not as against it as others, however, as I said, it's a bad move because we overpaid a divisional foe when other options were available.

For the others available: Dilfer, Banks, Blake, Chandler, and Delhomme are some of the players that were available that offseason. I don't think any of them would have been as successful as Drew in 2002. However, I think them, and the extra $4 mil or so last year plus the extra $2 mil+ this year and in the future, along with the 1st rounder, would have helped us a lot more these past two years. Delhomme and Dilfer have both been good enough to take teams to the Super Bowl, so I don't think signing either of them was locking us in to failure.

Again, we make that trade with 28 other teams and it's not nearly as bad as it turns out here ... but if you're making it with a divisional foe, you have to win the trade - it can't be a trade that turns out bad for you.

[don137]

It almost seems like every year their is a fall guy for TD and the fans buy into and keep coming back. As long as the fans are coming back TD will be fine...
The first year (2001) the Bills the fall guy was the salary cap and the mess he inherited from Butler. The Bills were in salary cap hell so everyone accepted it.

The second year (2002) the Bills still were having a salary cap hangover but their was improvement so the fans forgave him and said wait until next year...

His third year (2003) everyone blamed GW and Gilbride and had the thought that this is a very good team but had bad coaching. Fans hold out hope 2004 will be the year...

This year the team still sucks but many feel the team is really much better than what they are playing. Blame falls on the shoulders of Bledsoe. After the season Bledsoe will be the fall guy. The fans will be optomistic because in 2005 JP Losman will be the starting QB so Bills fans will keep coming back.

Seems like every year the blame is shifted everywhere else but TD. The problem is TD hired GW. He traded for Bledsoe. He needs to be more accountable and take more heat than what he is taking.

[ScottLawrence]

The only problem I have with Donahoe is some of his draft picks and, the biggest mistake of all...DREW BLEDSOE.

Bledsoe makes the orginization, team, and front office look terrible.

If we had at least a somewhat of a mobile and, smart QB, this team would be a team to reckon with.


Drew Bledsoe makes him look bad and, he should pay for it but, wont.

[chernobylwraiths]

How did we overpay? At the time, they were looking for two first round picks. If we had paid THAT I can see your point. But Bledsoe was still considered a legitimate player and he is not old. A first wasn't a bad move. Of all the players he has signed in FA, the ONLY one that I feel he overpaid for was Milloy. And I think he overpaid because he felt he HAD to. There were three other teams bidding and we were not that set at the position. Almost justifiable to overpay in that situation.

As for the line, a bane of contention by many, he drafted Jonas Jennings in his first draft, and he has been a decent player. He invested a first rounder, fourth overall, in the next draft to get Big Mike Williams. Not a consensus pick, but a popular one. The other tackle in the draft was Bryant McKinnie, and no matter WHAT most fans say now, he would NOT have been a very popular guy with that attitude, ego and the fact that he held out for almost half the season as a rookie. Mike Williams has been a disappointment but I believe that people throw the word "bust" out too liberally. He isn't great but still an OK player and could still turn into a solid performer. Donahoe inherited the Ruben Brown contract so there wasn't much to do there, and he signed a tackle who ended up being he center. I cannot blame TD for NOT overpaying for guys like Woody this past offseason or getting into bidding wars for others. He also signed Marcus Price who has turned into a very good backup tackle and could turn into our future starting tackle if Jennings leaves. Let's not forget that TD also bypassed a consensus great tackle in Walker and traded the pick to Tampa for an extra second in order to get Nate Clements. Walker HAS turned into a "bust" apparently.

What can, without a doubt, be considered Donahoe's biggest mistake was his hire of Gregg Williams as Head Coach, bypassing Marvin Lewis and John Fox in the process. The dog and pony show that Gregg must have put on for Donahoe in that interview I am supposing would have made PT Barnum proud because it just didn't seem that Gregg was cut out for being a head coach. Secondly, his extensive list of teachers he ended up hiring turned out to be the teachers from hell in the Buffalo Public School system. This in my opinion has stunted the growth of some promising young players offensively. This is our offensive line's first year under what many consider the finest offensive line coach in the NFL. Add to that the fact that they didn't play together as a whole unit until the last preseason game and you might begin to understand why the offensive line hasn't looked like a cohesive unit thusfar this season. Many felt that he should have fired Williams after the 8-8 season when it seemed as if Gregg was outcoached in several games and where his questionable decision making possibly cost him games. One reason for that COULD have been the fact that Ralph Wilson refused to pay a SECOND coach for a year of not coaching. Ralph had just been slapped by the NFL for his balking at paying Wade Phillips the rest of his contract and perhaps Ralph wanted to just ride out the final year. After all, the Bills improved by 5 games from Gregg's first year to his second, but that is only one of many possibilities for the reasons for keeping Williams.

As for free agent pickups, I feel Donahoe has brought in more hits than misses. Plus, he has also dropped players that he has signed who didn't work out quickly, like Gildon this past training camp. He has brought in as free agents, Sam Adams, Jeff Posey, Takeo Spikes, London Fletcher, Troy Vincent, Izell Reese, Lawyer Milloy, Trey Teague, Chris Villarreal, and Bobby Shaw as well as Ryan Lindell (who is currently considered a failure by many fans).

Lastly, one of Donahoe's other bad qualities and something that he maybe should work on in the future, is his personal skills with the players. When he got here, he had no problem showing the old guard who was boss. I guess in many cases it had to be done, but it was how it was done that rubbed many the wrong way. Some, like veteran placekicker Steve Christie was so upset with the way he was treated, by not even getting a courtesy phone call to tell him he was placed on the reserve/injured list, that he vowed never to play for the organization again. It was sad really considering the current problems the Bills have with kickers and the problems the Bills had with kickers for that season in particular. There have been others who have been unceremoniously dumped after years of service without so much as a handshake and a thankyou. I know it is a business, but it shouldn't prevent you from being human about these decisions.

As far as I'm concerned Tom Donahoe deserves to at least stick it out and see how his current head coaching decision pans out. That should take about as long as Gregg Williams got. It should be at that time that the question of if we should keep him should be answered. Running around and firing coaches after only a short period of time is counterproductive to building and semblance of team. The Bills have lost the first two games of the season, but have been in both and quite easily by only one play in each could have won both.

Just my opinion and a rather long one at that. If you read the whole thing, God bless you.

[HenryRules]

I read it all (won't quote it because it's too long).

How can I say we overpaid for Drew? Because we gave up a first rounder, never made the playoffs, and two years later we used a 1st, a 2nd, and a 5th on another QB. If you're giving up a first rounder for a QB, you should either make the playoffs or be set for QB for a while. I mean giving a first rounder should either get you over the hump or set you up for the long haul. We got neither from Drew and thus it wasn't worth it and was overpaying. Was Drew the only reason that we didn't make the playoffs? Of course not. Did he help us? In 2002, yes, in 2003, no. Was that performance worth a first rounder? Nope.

Just because NE asked for more than a 1st rounder does not mean that we did not overpay. NE may not have gotten as much as they wanted, but we did not get enough for the first rounder to warrant giving it up (like I said, no playoff appearances and not being set at the position for the future).

TD has brought in free agents, but I think that we're overpaying for a bunch of them ... I'd rather give Woody his contract than pay Teague his contract. Both are overpaid because of their versatility. Both are actually overpaid a similar amount of $ (each about $1 mill more per year). One can give you pro bowl performances, one can prevent his teammates from doing so. Reese is nothing special at all ... almost every offseason guys like him get signed. Bobby Shaw? His cap hit is about $1.1 mil this year - a bit much for a 4th receiver when we've got issues at OL I'd say. Milloy? He hasn't produced at all to warrant a $4 mil cap hit. I don't know how you can claim Milloy, Teague, and Shaw as good signings, but at the same time claim that not signing Woody was a good move. Personally, I'd rather we overpay for Woody than one of those 3 (or Priealeau for that matter - a mediocre backup S with a $1.4 cap hit?).

At the end of the day, you can say what you want, but our team gets less help from its recent draft choices than all but a couple playoff teams in the last 2 years. That, almost as much as Gregg Williams, is why we have such a poor record.

[Dozerdog]

This is exactly what I was saying on the season ticket thread....that being so dedicated to buying the tickets to a perpetually crappy team is counter-productive. IMHO TD is a budget manager. He's very frugal and knows how to keep the product just over marginally well so it looks good and has a chance.

What makes this nonsensical is that the Bills will spend the same amount of money putting a team on the field regardless of record- There is no additional profit going 6-10 or 10-6. Unless you go to the playoffs- and collect on an added 1-2 games worth of reciepts.

It's called a salary cap and regardless of how the talent is- we will spend all $80 million of it regardless.

You want to turn big profits? Turn Bills merchandise into the top 5 sellers- and you do that by going to the playoffs.

You only make more money by winning. Do you think they hire GMs who are only interested in profits instead of winning? If you truely beleive that then I just can't take you seriously

[HenryRules]

What makes this nonsensical is that the Bills will spend the same amount of money putting a team on the field regardless of record- There is no additional profit going 6-10 or 10-6. Unless you go to the playoffs- and collect on an added 1-2 games worth of reciepts.

It's called a salary cap and regardless of how the talent is- we will spend all $80 million of it regardless.

You want to turn big profits? Turn Bills merchandise into the top 5 sellers- and you do that by going to the playoffs.

You only make more money by winning. Do you think they hire GMs who are only interested in profits instead of winning? If you truely beleive that then I just can't take you seriously

As a mod, you should read all posts before calling someone nonsensical. The very first post in this thread says that we're $5 mil under the cap this year - that's $5 mil in profit. If you have an issue with the number, take it up with Eb, not Typ0 just because he disagrees with you.

[Mr. Cynical]

TD is the best GM in the league. You'll see. His 17-33 record is just a warm up. Give him 5 more years and I guarantee you the team will be cruising at just about .500. What more can you ask? It takes TIME people! Building a .500 team doesn't happen overnight. I'd say a decade will be just about right for TD to get us there. I mean, he inherited such a terrible team and the only mistake he made was GW, so he deserves 9-10 years before we can judge him.

[Typ0]

What makes this nonsensical is that the Bills will spend the same amount of money putting a team on the field regardless of record- There is no additional profit going 6-10 or 10-6. Unless you go to the playoffs- and collect on an added 1-2 games worth of reciepts.

It's called a salary cap and regardless of how the talent is- we will spend all $80 million of it regardless.

You want to turn big profits? Turn Bills merchandise into the top 5 sellers- and you do that by going to the playoffs.

You only make more money by winning. Do you think they hire GMs who are only interested in profits instead of winning? If you truely beleive that then I just can't take you seriously

It's not that TD doesn't want to win...it's that his perceptions aren't consistent with a winning attitude IMO. Of course he wants to win...and he see's winning as a means to profit--after all he is a manager. The problem is he's old and set in his ways...and his vision of how to build a winning team has time and again in his career proven wrong in the salary cap era...he was a GM long enough that he got lucky a year or two in pitt but for the most part they were average teams that kept trying to get over the hump as well. He has a long list of conservative hires of players and outright failures. I would like to say he is the best GM anyone could have and we will be a winner...I just fear it isn't so.

[Historian]

It's called a salary cap and regardless of how the talent is- we will spend all $80 million of it regardless.

You want to turn big profits? Turn Bills merchandise into the top 5 sellers- and you do that by going to the playoffs.

You only make more money by winning. Do you think they hire GMs who are only interested in profits instead of winning? If you truely beleive that then I just can't take you seriously

The merchandse money is shared equally too Doz. And Coach's salaries don't count against the cap. We have consistantly paid several millions below market value for our coaches, specifically for Williams. Butler was offered one Million to stay here, when the current market value for the GM of a playoff contending team was 3 mil.

As of last year, we now pay 15 bucks to park a car, despite the fact that we can't enter the lot until 4 hours before kickoff.

We have a marketing staff of dozens who have successfully leased all the boxes out for five years, and are currently working on the luxury seats.

I'm not going to sit here and tell you that all TD is doing is trying to pinch pennies. What I'm saying, is that from the top, the old man has just so many resources that he's going to put into this team, one of his many business interests, and that's it. If that results in a winning record, fine. If it doesn't, that's what he has marketing guys for. They've sure done their job well, haven't they?

And I don't want to hear any of that tired "Well, he kept the team here." song. It's gotten old. He's held this area hostage enough times with that in the past. If the grass is so greener...go. He will find out the same thing that the Irsays and the Davises have...that nothing, no new stadium, no sweetheart deal, can replace rabid fans who eat, sleep, and breath football.

[Ebenezer]

The merchandse money is shared equally too Doz.


I believe that is incorrect. The monies earned from merchandise, sold at the stores ON GAMEDAY, belong directly to the team. If you buy a jersey at, say, Penney's that goes into the general pot.

[Typ0]

Let's face it...we are stuck with the same thing we've had since Fade...mediocrity.

[justasportsfan]

TD is staying for quite sometime.

[Historian]

I believe that is incorrect. The monies earned from merchandise, sold at the stores ON GAMEDAY, belong directly to the team. If you buy a jersey at, say, Penney's that goes into the general pot.

I believe it's all shared, but you would know more about the financials than I.

And I agree with your original premise. TD is going nowhere. The stands are full, the leases are signed, and money is being made.

[pats-were-right]

What makes this nonsensical is that the Bills will spend the same amount of money putting a team on the field regardless of record- There is no additional profit going 6-10 or 10-6. Unless you go to the playoffs- and collect on an added 1-2 games worth of reciepts.

It's called a salary cap and regardless of how the talent is- we will spend all $80 million of it regardless.

You want to turn big profits? Turn Bills merchandise into the top 5 sellers- and you do that by going to the playoffs.

You only make more money by winning. Do you think they hire GMs who are only interested in profits instead of winning? If you truely beleive that then I just can't take you seriously
Whoa wait a sec. - just because you're against the cap doesn't mean you've spent the money. What you spend and what your cap number is are two different things, the VIkings being a prime example, not only because of a player salary differential but substandard amounts spent on coaching, scouting and facilities.

[Voltron]

I posted some of this in another thread but it pertains here I think.

I have had it with this Front office. Every year I buy my season tickets thinking “This year is going to be different” and every year it is different alright, It just gets worse. TD’s drafts have not panned out, his coaching choices have been HORRIBLE, about the only thing this guy has done is to lie to his customers to sell more season tickets. Well I can tell you one person I know that will not be lining his pockets next year unless some type of Miracle happens and Drew gets new legs and a new brain. Could it be time to send Drew, Tom, Ralph and MM down the Yellow brick road? Ralph needs a brain for hiring TD, Drew needs some heart because he has no confidence in himself, TD needs some courage to Waive Drew and admit another failure, and Mike Malarkey at this point probably just want to go back home to Pittsburg!

[Ebenezer]

I posted some of this in another thread but it pertains here I think.

I have had it with this Front office. Every year I buy my season tickets thinking “This year is going to be different” and every year it is different alright, It just gets worse. TD’s drafts have not panned out, his coaching choices have been HORRIBLE, about the only thing this guy has done is to lie to his customers to sell more season tickets. Well I can tell you one person I know that will not be lining his pockets next year unless some type of Miracle happens and Drew gets new legs and a new brain. Could it be time to send Drew, Tom, Ralph and MM down the Yellow brick road? Ralph needs a brain for hiring TD, Drew needs some heart because he has no confidence in himself, TD needs some courage to Waive Drew and admit another failure, and Mike Malarkey at this point probably just want to go back home to Pittsburg!
firing MM after 2 games is not called for...would you want to be hired and fired after that short of time in your job?? that's not fair in the "Real world" let alone the NFL were it takes time to build anything...Marv Levy didn't exactly look like a HOF coach late in 86 or in 87 or for most of 89...

[Voltron]

I am not saying fire MM. I am saying at this point he is probobly wishing he never left Pitt. I like MM so far but I do not like much of the play calling.

[Ebenezer]

I am not saying fire MM. I am saying at this point he is probobly wishing he never left Pitt. I like MM so far but I do not like much of the play calling.
oh, ok, that made sense...and after 2 games we can't tell about the play calling...with DB and the line they are limited to what they can do...any play that requires 3 or more seconds of solid blocking can never be called.