Mark Brunell

[Mr. Cynical]

So glad TD didn't go after him in the offseason as well. :rolleyes:

[BAM]

LOL


Nice sidestep he just made there. :up:

[Mr. Cynical]

LOL


Nice sidestep he just made there. :up:Yeah that was awesome. :D

Just like Drew. :;

[Dozerdog]

We shoulda got Warren Sapp too- and Damien Woody, and I bet Gibbs woulda come to Buffalo if we asked nicely.



Wasn't Peyton Manning a FA? WTF? We lose his number?

[Mr. Cynical]

You got it Dozer. It would have been great to have gotten Sapp, Woody and Gibbs. Definitely. I don't think Manning was a FA, was he? That would have been really nice too. Heck, we shoud have gotten the entire starting pro bowl roster!

/sarcasm off

We are paying multi-millions for a washed up birdbath when we could have gotten either Warner or Brunell. Like it or not, TD screwed up. But I know how you feel about TD and Drew so I don't expect you to admit he made a mistake.

[Turf]

Gibbs would have come if we had an owner and organization with any balls.

[Dozerdog]

Gibbs would have come if we had an owner and organization with any balls.

You're dreaming.

[Turf]

You're sleeping.

[The Natrix]

So glad TD didn't go after him in the offseason as well. :rolleyes:

I hear ya, man. There were better options out there. But, for whatever reason, they were not given any consideration.

[Mr. Cynical]

I hear ya, man. There were better options out there. But, for whatever reason, they were not given any consideration.
The reason is TD has an ego the size of an aircraft carrier and will never admit to making a mistake. I don't blame him for getting Drew here (I was for that decision) but I totally blame him for keeping him this season, especially with all the other options.

[The Natrix]

The reason is TD has an ego the size of an aircraft carrier and will never admit to making a mistake. I don't blame him for getting Drew here (I was for that decision) but I totally blame him for keeping him this season, especially with all the other options.

I wasn't for getting Bledsoe before it happened.

Anyway, the only positive with Drew is if we went with a one year groomer such as Blake, we would be with Harrington or another QB from that draft. I don't like any of those QB's nearly as much as I do Losman.

[Mr. Cynical]

I wasn't for getting Bledsoe before it happened.

Anyway, the only positive with Drew is if we went with a one year groomer such as Blake, we would be with Harrington or another QB from that draft. I don't like any of those QB's nearly as much as I do Losman.
If I had done my homework on Drew beforehand I probably wouldn't have been for getting him either. C'est la vie.

I'm not sure I follow the rest of your post....can you explain a bit more?

[colin]

So glad TD didn't go after him in the offseason as well. :rolleyes:

I knew you'd come out and say something like this.

He got sacked 5 times, fumbled once, made some nice plays, but lost by 3 points to a not very good team (kinda like a QB on our team, but of course ours is garbage).

Brunel also played like hot puke the last two games and got knocked the F out like Roy Jones in a previous game.

I know you are a tennis guy and not a football guy, but sooner or later you should watch more than the prime time game to make an evaluation.

You probably watched the start of Wimbledon and still insist that Rodick must have won, because he played well to start.

Anyhow, seeing as you are trying to move on from tennis to the NFL, here is a pointer: Washington lost, and they lost because they have no idea how to manage a clock, get plays in on time, and kept the ball away from the highest paid running back in NFL history who was averaging upwards of 4.5 yards a carry.

of course, you walk away talking about brunel because he is who the camera points to and you love the serve and volley game.

[Mr. Cynical]

I knew you'd come out and say something like this.

He got sacked 5 times, fumbled once, made some nice plays, but lost by 3 points to a not very good team (kinda like a QB on our team, but of course ours is garbage).

Brunel also played like hot puke the last two games and got knocked the F out like Roy Jones in a previous game.

I know you are a tennis guy and not a football guy, but sooner or later you should watch more than the prime time game to make an evaluation.

You probably watched the start of Wimbledon and still insist that Rodick must have won, because he played well to start.

Anyhow, seeing as you are trying to move on from tennis to the NFL, here is a pointer: Washington lost, and they lost because they have no idea how to manage a clock, get plays in on time, and kept the ball away from the highest paid running back in NFL history who was averaging upwards of 4.5 yards a carry.

of course, you walk away talking about brunel because he is who the camera points to and you love the serve and volley game.
:lolpoint: "Drew is my hero"

I never noticed your title before. It all makes sense now. Keep on fighting to the bitter inevitable end. :up:

[The Natrix]

I'm not sure I follow the rest of your post....can you explain a bit more?


Since at the time, Bledsoe was the most overrated QB ever (He's not really overrated anymore as most agree that he stinks), he was thought to be the QB of the present and the future. Any other option whether it had been AVP, Blake, Rob, etc. would have been a stop-gap while a rookie was groomed. I remember a thread when Bledsoe was hired that asked how many years Drew would start. Most people said 4-5 years. Everyone would have voted 1-2 years for any other QB that was available at the time.

This over-estimation of Bledsoe's abilities is what is costing this organization.

[Dozerdog]

It's very easy to be the armchair GM-


You have a pool of 5-6 QBs (Warner, Brunell, Garcia, Collins, Griese, Couch) - all whom had either baggage, major flaws, or required extra compensation.

Occasionally one or more will have a decent game- depends on who's got the Browns that week or whatever.


Then it's "OooH!! OOOOHHHH! We should have got that guy!!"

The fact still remains- all of them- even if you could acquire one or two- would get hammered behind this OL.


I would have liked to have seen Griese myself come here. But we are not privy to the player's wants or contract demands.


TD addressed the need for a QB in the draft. Am I to understand that you were willing to give up a 3rd round pick, and Give Brunell a 43 million dollar contract (with an 8 million signoing bonus) as a temporary stopgap until Losman was ready? Well- OK- but I guess we didn't need Vincent or extend Schobel all that badly

That's what the Redskins gave up.


So glad TD didn't go after him in the offseason as well. :rolleyes:

[Mr. Cynical]

Since at the time, Bledsoe was the most overrated QB ever (He's not really overrated anymore as most agree that he stinks), he was thought to be the QB of the present and the future. Any other option whether it had been AVP, Blake, Rob, etc. would have been a stop-gap while a rookie was groomed. I remember a thread when Bledsoe was hired that asked how many years Drew would start. Most people said 4-5 years. Everyone would have voted 1-2 years for any other QB that was available at the time.

This over-estimation of Bledsoe's abilities is what is costing this organization.
I see what you mean...and I agree. Good GMs all make mistakes but they also correct them before too much damage is done, something which TD has failed to do.

[Dozerdog]

Another thing you so conveniently forget is that most of these guys were still property of their former teams AT THE TIME OF THE DRAFT!




TD addressed the QB situation during the draft. After making that commitment, and after or around the June 1 cuts, a lot of these guys became available.

TD could have sat around and not signed Vincent or Villarrial, or tried to go after other guys, in the hope that a QB would be cut and then (in the hope if one was cut) that they would sign with us.


He chose to go to camp, with a new coach- and continuity - with whomever the signal caller would be. By then you have missed out on 2 mini camps and 6 months of workouts and film room study.

[Mr. Cynical]

The fact still remains- all of them- even if you could acquire one or two- would get hammered behind this OL. And whose fault is that?


Am I to understand that you were willing to give up a 3rd round pick, and Give Brunell a 43 million dollar contract (with an 8 million signoing bonus) as a temporary stopgap until Losman was ready? Well- OK- but I guess we didn't need Vincent or extend Schobel all that badly.All day I make that deal. First, you know as well as I do that Brunell will never see all of that $43M. Those contracts are inflated so that they accelerate in the back end and they are usually re-neged, traded or released before that happens. Second, you say Brunell would have been a temporary stopgap. What do you think TD was thinking when he kept Drew this year? Third, if you think that Brunell would not be doing any better than Drew at this point that makes no sense. Drew can't move out of the way of his own shadow. With a line as bad as ours, you need someone who can move around, even if it is just to buy 1-2 more secs. Brunell can do alot more than that.

[Dozerdog]

Well-

For what Might be a marginal improvement at QB, you would have given up

1- Next year's #1, this year's #3, (Losman) Next year's #3 (Brunell) and it would cost you a lot more than what you would have paid Bledsoe- eating up the cap space needed to get whatever lineman (Have you mentioned any names on who we "would have" signed? :idunno: ) and reducing your ability to sign Vincent and Schobel.


But that's just where we will have to agree to disagree.



I don't think it would have been worth it.

Griese however- is a different story- Vet with playoff experience.....and could be cheap

[Mr. Cynical]

Another thing you so conveniently forget is that most of these guys were still property of their former teams AT THE TIME OF THE DRAFT!

TD addressed the QB situation during the draft. After making that commitment, and after or around the June 1 cuts, a lot of these guys became available.

TD could have sat around and not signed Vincent or Villarrial, or tried to go after other guys, in the hope that a QB would be cut and then (in the hope if one was cut) that they would sign with us.

He chose to go to camp, with a new coach- and continuity - with whomever the signal caller would be. By then you have missed out on 2 mini camps and 6 months of workouts and film room study.I guess you deleted your first post which I quoted...but I'll respond to this new one as well.

Your timing issues are moot. Drafting Losman had nothing to do with getting Brunell or Warner. TD planned on having a vet start this year from the outset, otherwise he would have let JP compete for the role. He was adamant in saying "Drew is our starter". Hence, the timing of when Brunell or Warner became available is moot.

[Dozerdog]

But that's if Griese is not damaged goods- not aware if he still has shoulder problems or not...

[Dozerdog]

I guess you deleted your first post which I quoted...but I'll respond to this new one as well.

Your timing issues are moot. Drafting Losman had nothing to do with getting Brunell or Warner. TD planned on having a vet start this year from the outset, otherwise he would have let JP compete for the role. He was adamant in saying "Drew is our starter". Hence, the timing of when Brunell or Warner became available is moot.


I have not deleted any posts in this thread



It's not moot. Timing is everything when signing free agents. I highly doubt Vincent or Villarriall were going to sit on their asses for 3 months waiting on TD.

Up until 2-3 days before getting cut The Rams were hanging on to Warner and the Giants were hanging on to Collins- Both were trying to exact large pay cuts from those two to remain with the club.

And without getting hit with tampering charges, there is no way TD or any other team could even approach them with "What ifs"

You can't sit there and say "we should have done this or that" and ignore major stumbling blocks to those theories.

[Mr. Cynical]

Well-

For what Might be a marginal improvement at QB,
We definitely have to agree to disagree if this is how you feel about the difference between Brunell and Bledsoe.


you would have given up

1- Next year's #1, this year's #3, (Losman) Next year's #3 (Brunell) and it would cost you a lot more than what you would have paid Bledsoe- eating up the cap space needed to get whatever lineman (Have you mentioned any names on who we "would have" signed? :idunno: ) and reducing your ability to sign Vincent and Schobel.
I don't get this breakdown...

"1- Next year's #1, this year's #3, (Losman) Next year's #3 (Brunell)"

Can you explain it again using year numbers, e.g., '04 draft = this year, etc.?


Griese however- is a different story- Vet with playoff experience.....and could be cheap
I definitely disagree with this one but that's up to you.

[Mr. Cynical]

I have not deleted any posts in this thread I quoted you and then after writing my post the text had totally changed. I guess you edited the whole thing just before I posted.


It's not moot. Timing is everything when signing free agents. I highly doubt Vincent or Villarriall were going to sit on their asses for 3 months waiting on TD.Brunell or Villarial. Not that hard a decision IMO.


And without getting hit with tampering charges, there is no way TD or any other team could even approach them with "What ifs" The Redskins got Brunell without tampering, so we had a shot as well. Same goes for Warner. If TD had wanted to make something happen, it could have. He didn't, so it didn't. He was always 100% behind his decision on Drew and with his f***king huge ego he wasn't about to bend by going after one of those other guys. There is a reason he got the boot from Pittsburgh and we're finding out the hard way. He is extremely stubborn and does not bend or admit mistakes.

[Dozerdog]

Whatever we gave up for JPL , AND add another 3rd round pick to the Jaguars for Brunell- Because in actuality- Brunell was never a Free agent in the first place.


http://www.nflfans.com/jaguars/article.php?story=2004022009492421



Just looked it up - For Losman-


the Bills sent their second and fifth round selections in this year's draft as well as their first round selection in next year's draft.


Toss in a 3rd round pick for Brunell- $43 million, $8 million SB

[Mr. Cynical]

What are you talking about dozer? Why are you combining what we gave up for JP with the deal for Brunell?

"The deal becomes official once the offseason trading period begins March 3. The Redskins will give the Jaguars a third-round draft pick for Brunell..."

We would have given up a 3rd round pick for Brunell. That's it. The deal for JP has nothing to do with Brunell. :huh:

[Dozerdog]

But I'm sure if he wanted to make it happen he could have :doh:

[Dozerdog]

What are you talking about dozer? Why are you combining what we gave up for JP with the deal for Brunell?

"The deal becomes official once the offseason trading period begins March 3. The Redskins will give the Jaguars a third-round draft pick for Brunell..."

We would have given up a 3rd round pick for Brunell. That's it. The deal for JP has nothing to do with Brunell. :huh:


Just noticed that- My bad-

OK- still- you have a $43 million dollar QB- and try to wish it away with "Backloaded contact..yadda...yadda,...yadda...." you still spend most of your cap cash on an old QB- More than what Bledsoe costs- and I'm not convinced we would not be 0-2 with Brunell back there either.


Washington is going to Cap hell in 3 years so they really don't care what they spend

[colin]

:lolpoint: "Drew is my hero"

I never noticed your title before. It all makes sense now. Keep on fighting to the bitter inevitable end. :up:

I didn't put that there, but it reminds me of why Buffalo teams have such a loser rep, it is because of a vocal minority of fans who only focus on one player or aspect of the game and have no idea.

Brunell has played like 5hit, he did fairly well on the MNF game, but is a good showcase of how a QB is limited to what he has to work with, and if you can't pass protect you go for your superback, which the Skins have and we have 2 of.

Also, cutting Bledsoe and paying Brunell would have more than doubled the old vet QB cap hit over the next 2 seasons.

Good idea.

I suppose the lack of a salary cap in tennis makes you uncomfortable the concept.

[Earthquake Enyart]

Brunell doesn't last until week 8 with this line.

Somebody tell wys that there are 32 teams and one team can't get all the FA's it wants. TD got Villareal the day you could sign FA's to try to shore up the weakest area. Got Vincent to replace Winfield. Drafted the QB of the future.

So we give that up for $43 mil for a washed up QB? Great logic. :cynic:

[EDS]

So glad TD didn't go after him in the offseason as well. :rolleyes:

You realize of course, that Brunell is a washed up veteran as well don't you? Don't kid yourself, Brunell is not taking any team deep into the playoffs except for maybe a Baltimore Ravens type team. I for one would not give a $43 milllion contract to an aging veteran.

You may do that, but then the team would end up in a terrible cap situation resulting in a significant roster purge.

[G. Host]

So glad TD didn't go after him in the offseason as well. :rolleyes:

So easy to judge people in hindsight. :tired:

[G. Host]

I didn't put that there, but it reminds me of why Buffalo teams have such a loser rep, it is because of a vocal minority of fans who only focus on one player or aspect of the game and have no idea.

Absolutely! The Bills fandom being lemmings and following people like Chuck Dickerson to bash their players, coaches and GMs hurts the Bills. Very vocal cynics use 20-20 hindsight to bash one or two people when entire staffs evalute players and provide input. Those same lemmings were in the stands doing the Wave while Bills were on offense.

[DaBillzAhDaShiznit]

I think anyone who really thinks that Tom Donahoe did not ask around (covertly) to see if there was any kind of interest in a trade for Bledsoe is fooling themselves. The fact is we had a less than desirable commodity who would cost us a lot of jack to cut. Who wants to pay for Drew for two more years while he is sitting on his arse in Montana? And what GM in his right mind would give up anything significant for Drew...even in the offseason?
The available free agents were not sure things to be any better than Drew. And everyone in the organization was convinced that the new system would revitalize Drew. They did not count on the Oline regressing or the receivers having another mediocre season.

I think that we should have grabbed Griese. He has a lot of talent and he will be a solid NFL QB in the next few years. Heck, we should have grabbed Eric Crouch....nobody has given him a chance at QB in the NFL...and he has the skills and the mindset to get it done.

What I am saying is that we should have went into camp with Drew, either Griese or Crouch, and Losman. I think it was pretty apparent in camp that if there was some solid competition, Drew would be 2nd string. Griese or Crouch would have been solid competition. I love Drew as a backup, would rather have him on the team, on the sidelines than pay the penalty and have him sitting at home.

[Iehoshua]

We are paying multi-millions for a washed up birdbath when we could have gotten either Warner or Brunell. Like it or not, TD screwed up. But I know how you feel about TD and Drew so I don't expect you to admit he made a mistake.

:bf1:
:up:

[The_Philster]

I didn't put that there, but it reminds me of why Buffalo teams have such a loser rep, it is because of a vocal minority of fans who only focus on one player or aspect of the game and have no idea.

Brunell has played like 5hit, he did fairly well on the MNF game, but is a good showcase of how a QB is limited to what he has to work with, and if you can't pass protect you go for your superback, which the Skins have and we have 2 of.

Also, cutting Bledsoe and paying Brunell would have more than doubled the old vet QB cap hit over the next 2 seasons.

Good idea.

I suppose the lack of a salary cap in tennis makes you uncomfortable the concept.
:10: Another excellent post..good luck convincing any of the "Coach's Disciples," though

[HenryRules]

I think anyone who really thinks that Tom Donahoe did not ask around (covertly) to see if there was any kind of interest in a trade for Bledsoe is fooling themselves. The fact is we had a less than desirable commodity who would cost us a lot of jack to cut. Who wants to pay for Drew for two more years while he is sitting on his arse in Montana? And what GM in his right mind would give up anything significant for Drew...even in the offseason?

It wouldn't have cost us anything to cut Drew this offseason. NE picked up the cap hit of his signing bonus when they traded him to us ... there was nothing left for us.

The only reason he has two more years on his contract is because we renegotiated it this past offseason.

You can call me foolish, but I don't think we tried to trade Bledsoe this offseason. Considering Bledsoe's contract situation, any team contacted about trading him would also contact him regarding his contract. If he knew the Bills wanted to trade him, he would not have given us a bit of cap relief in the offseason, instead he would have let us decide to cut him/extend him midseason. What he did does not make sense if we tried to trade him.

[Dozerdog]

BTW- Brunnell has been sacked 8 times already this year- so much for his "mobility"

[FTG]

I didn't put that there, but it reminds me of why Buffalo teams have such a loser rep, it is because of a vocal minority of fans who only focus on one player or aspect of the game and have no idea.

.


Dumb dumb dumb dumb :rolleyes:

[ScottLawrence]

I quoted you and then after writing my post the text had totally changed. I guess you edited the whole thing just before I posted.

Brunell or Villarial. Not that hard a decision IMO.

The Redskins got Brunell without tampering, so we had a shot as well. Same goes for Warner. If TD had wanted to make something happen, it could have. He didn't, so it didn't. He was always 100% behind his decision on Drew and with his f***king huge ego he wasn't about to bend by going after one of those other guys. There is a reason he got the boot from Pittsburgh and we're finding out the hard way. He is extremely stubborn and does not bend or admit mistakes.


Whats you oponion on Losman Cynical?

[Mr. Cynical]

It wouldn't have cost us anything to cut Drew this offseason. NE picked up the cap hit of his signing bonus when they traded him to us ... there was nothing left for us.

The only reason he has two more years on his contract is because we renegotiated it this past offseason.

You can call me foolish, but I don't think we tried to trade Bledsoe this offseason. Considering Bledsoe's contract situation, any team contacted about trading him would also contact him regarding his contract. If he knew the Bills wanted to trade him, he would not have given us a bit of cap relief in the offseason, instead he would have let us decide to cut him/extend him midseason. What he did does not make sense if we tried to trade him.
No, you're not foolish. Just logical. :D

[Mr. Cynical]

Whats you oponion on Losman Cynical?I want to see him on the field as soon as his leg is ready, then I'll have more of an opinion. As of right now it's hard to say, although I liked what little we saw of him leading up to the season. Personally I would have tried to trade up for Big Ben (as I stated in my posts during the draft), but I think JP could be special as well, so I don't have any qualms about that decision. He is mobile and can thread the needle on the run....something we desperately need in Buffalo. And he also seems to have a strong, confident leadership mentality a la Kelly....something else we desperately need in Buffalo.

[Icer]

BTW- Brunnell has been sacked 8 times already this year- so much for his "mobility"
Vick has been sacked 10 times already too
McNair 8 times
McNabb 6 times

I'd say they were pretty mobile.

[Mr. Cynical]

Vick has been sacked 10 times already too
McNair 8 times
McNabb 6 times

I'd say they were pretty mobile.Good point. :up:

[DaBillzAhDaShiznit]

It wouldn't have cost us anything to cut Bledsoe this offseason? Really?

Oh and I said that Tom D made some covert calls.....believe it or not this stuff happens and the players and even the rest of the organization would probably not know about it. The less people involved means less of a chance of a leak....which didn't happen....so it worked.


BUT, if there was no cost to cut him, of course we wouldn't have been calling around looking for trades.


If there was no cap hit to cut him, I cannot fathom why he is still a Buffalo Bill.

[Mr. Cynical]

If there was no cap hit to cut him, I cannot fathom why he is still a Buffalo Bill.
TD's ego.