Complete and utter arrogance

[HenryRules]

For those saying that TD doesn't have an ego ... I found this on the Bills official site:

<i><b>Josh McCarty (St. Louis)</b>: As a GM, do you feel you have shortchanged this team by getting zero production out of the first day draft picks in 2002 and 2003? All we have to show for those first day picks are 2 DE's that can't rush the passer, an offensive tackle who is a liability vs. speedy DE's, a WR in Josh Reed who has been the poster child for inconsistency, and players like Coy Wire and Angelo Crowell who have been nothing but special teams players. When you look around the league and see the elite teams getting immediate production out of their first day picks, which is what you need in today's NFL, how can the Bills justify not having one impact player to show from either the 2002 or 2003 draft class?
<b>Tom Donahoe</b>: With all due respect, we would not agree with your assessment of some of our young players, many of whom are in various stages of development and are getting better each and every day. When you look at the personnel in this team with Tom Modrak, who heads up our college scouting, and John Guy, who is in charge of our pro scouting, we're very pleased with the job that they have done. We have virtually had to transform this roster over the last three years and we think it's a young roster with a group of players who are going to continue to get better.
</i>

http://www.buffalobills.com/news/news.jsp?news_id=2776

I can't believe that ... his last statement (saying they had to transform the roster) is basically blaming the previous administration. What ******* balls!! Blaming the last administration (which hardly ever finished below 8-8) for your own pathetic performance.

[Nighthawk]

He's an F'n moron...

[FTG]

Tom Donahoe: With all due respect, we would not agree with your assessment of some of our young players, many of whom are in various stages of development and are getting better each and every day. .

getting better everyday? :roflmao:

[LtBillsFan66]

Development? I'm watching ESPN and seeing Big Ben tearing it up.

[Tatonka]

yeah.. he is an arrogant ass.

[Charlieguide]

How many years does it take to rebuild, Tom? How many coaches? I'm thinking Jon Fox, Marvin Lewis, or either Pats coordinator might have helped move the process along. And maybe instead of rebuilding, you could have kept more key players. Yeah, it might have meant actually asking them to stay, maybe even with a restructuring . . . and that might have meant admitting that the previous admin wasn't all wrong, but it might have helped.

[TigerJ]

I'm not any happier about the season so far than anyone else, but in fact the cap situation when Donahoe was hired, not the level of talent, required that Donahoe make some hard decisions. The decision he made was to gut the lineup of some established veterans and rebuild from the ground up.

[Michael82]

I'm not any happier about the season so far than anyone else, but in fact the cap situation when Donahoe was hired, not the level of talent, required that Donahoe make some hard decisions. The decision he made was to gut the lineup of some established veterans and rebuild from the ground up.
Thank you! Great post! :bf1:

[The_Philster]

I'm not any happier about the season so far than anyone else, but in fact the cap situation when Donahoe was hired, not the level of talent, required that Donahoe make some hard decisions. The decision he made was to gut the lineup of some established veterans and rebuild from the ground up.
I agree with that...but we've had a good cap situation for 2 years now...a lot of talent both years that doesn't seem to put it together

[Tatonka]

tiger.. that was 4 years ago.. and we are going the WRONG direction..

3-13, 8-8, 6-10, coach fired, headed for 3-13 again.

i am tired of giving the guy breaks.. how long did it take belichick and company to turn NE around?

[Dozerdog]

I'm not ready to tear the guy apart-

It's one thing if he made a bunch of stupid moves (See Rick Spielman-Fins) or gambled and lost with overspending on the cap in hopes of getting a winner (See Redskins)-

With the big exception of picking GW, most of his moves when they were made weren't outlandish risky moves- a lot of the fans supported them.

Needed a QB- he got what apparently was one of the more accomplished ones out there at the time. He even recouped the pick. But the QB after a hot start fell on his face.

Needed Defense- he turned over one of the least talented units into something that keeps this offensively challenged team in every game. No one thinks Spikes, Posey, Adams, Vincent, Milloy, extending Schobel were mistakes at the time.

McGahee- I think he's still a tremendous talent. Everyone complains we shoulda- woulda- coulda on draft day 2003 but please give me the name of a guy we should have picked there.

Some of the draft picks have under performed- but again- at the time they were selected it's not like we gambled on no-names and they washed out (See Miami's draft history). Reed was the SEC's all time WR- a conference that passes in ungodly amounts - Mike Williams was supposed to be all that and a bag of chips too....We have to wait and see on Losman.

The Salary Cap- had his hands tied for 2 years and I think he's done well in not blowing the wad on one player.

Maybe it's because of my background - I hire and fre people too. They interview great, they have a past college and work history that is loaded with accomplishment and excellence- and then some fall on their asses when it's time to step up.

With today's NFL you evaluate the talent and make your moves. Unfortunatley once you move the chess pieces into place you are somewhat stuck with them. You can't fire everyone in mid season after frustrating loses. We would like too- but if that was truley the right move- then other clubs in the NFL in similar boats would do the same. It just doesn't happen.

People look at Baseball, Basketbal, Hockey with very long seasons and easier player movement (trades, minor leagues, ect) and try to equate it to football. Unfortunately it doesn't work out that way.

Am I satisfied with this team- Absolutely not.
Am I happy with the talent? - I think it's a talented roster that is underperforming. If two coaching staffs can't get the talent to perform than change the talent. Maybe it's a good thing Jennings and others remained unsigned.
Do I think TD has made mistakes?- Sure- no GM is perfect
Do i think TD is a bad GM? Absolutely not.

[Historian]

"Save the postage!"

That about sums it up for me.

[RedEyE]

I'm not ready to tear the guy apart-

It's one thing if he made a bunch of stupid moves (See Rick Spielman-Fins) or gambled and lost with overspending on the cap in hopes of getting a winner (See Redskins)-

With the big exception of picking GW, most of his moves when they were made weren't outlandish risky moves- a lot of the fans supported them.

Needed a QB- he got what apparently was one of the more accomplished ones out there at the time. He even recouped the pick. But the QB after a hot start fell on his face.

Needed Defense- he turned over one of the least talented units into something that keeps this offensively challenged team in every game. No one thinks Spikes, Posey, Adams, Vincent, Milloy, extending Schobel were mistakes at the time.

McGahee- I think he's still a tremendous talent. Everyone complains we shoulda- woulda- coulda on draft day 2003 but please give me the name of a guy we should have picked there.

Some of the draft picks have under performed- but again- at the time they were selected it's not like we gambled on no-names and they washed out (See Miami's draft history). Reed was the SEC's all time WR- a conference that passes in ungodly amounts - Mike Williams was supposed to be all that and a bag of chips too....We have to wait and see on Losman.

The Salary Cap- had his hands tied for 2 years and I think he's done well in not blowing the wad on one player.

Maybe it's because of my background - I hire and fre people too. They interview great, they have a past college and work history that is loaded with accomplishment and excellence- and then some fall on their asses when it's time to step up.

With today's NFL you evaluate the talent and make your moves. Unfortunatley once you move the chess pieces into place you are somewhat stuck with them. You can't fire everyone in mid season after frustrating loses. We would like too- but if that was truley the right move- then other clubs in the NFL in similar boats would do the same. It just doesn't happen.

People look at Baseball, Basketbal, Hockey with very long seasons and easier player movement (trades, minor leagues, ect) and try to equate it to football. Unfortunately it doesn't work out that way.

Am I satisfied with this team- Absolutely not.
Am I happy with the talent? - I think it's a talented roster that is underperforming. If two coaching staffs can't get the talent to perform than change the talent. Maybe it's a good thing Jennings and others remained unsigned.
Do I think TD has made mistakes?- Sure- no GM is perfect
Do i think TD is a bad GM? Absolutely not.

Why not make this a new thread? I think that it exposes some information that needs to be stated seperately from this thread.

[HenryRules]

I'm not ready to tear the guy apart-

It's one thing if he made a bunch of stupid moves (See Rick Spielman-Fins) or gambled and lost with overspending on the cap in hopes of getting a winner (See Redskins)-

With the big exception of picking GW, most of his moves when they were made weren't outlandish risky moves- a lot of the fans supported them.

Needed a QB- he got what apparently was one of the more accomplished ones out there at the time. He even recouped the pick. But the QB after a hot start fell on his face.

Needed Defense- he turned over one of the least talented units into something that keeps this offensively challenged team in every game. No one thinks Spikes, Posey, Adams, Vincent, Milloy, extending Schobel were mistakes at the time.

McGahee- I think he's still a tremendous talent. Everyone complains we shoulda- woulda- coulda on draft day 2003 but please give me the name of a guy we should have picked there.

Some of the draft picks have under performed- but again- at the time they were selected it's not like we gambled on no-names and they washed out (See Miami's draft history). Reed was the SEC's all time WR- a conference that passes in ungodly amounts - Mike Williams was supposed to be all that and a bag of chips too....We have to wait and see on Losman.

The Salary Cap- had his hands tied for 2 years and I think he's done well in not blowing the wad on one player.

Maybe it's because of my background - I hire and fre people too. They interview great, they have a past college and work history that is loaded with accomplishment and excellence- and then some fall on their asses when it's time to step up.

With today's NFL you evaluate the talent and make your moves. Unfortunatley once you move the chess pieces into place you are somewhat stuck with them. You can't fire everyone in mid season after frustrating loses. We would like too- but if that was truley the right move- then other clubs in the NFL in similar boats would do the same. It just doesn't happen.

People look at Baseball, Basketbal, Hockey with very long seasons and easier player movement (trades, minor leagues, ect) and try to equate it to football. Unfortunately it doesn't work out that way.

Am I satisfied with this team- Absolutely not.
Am I happy with the talent? - I think it's a talented roster that is underperforming. If two coaching staffs can't get the talent to perform than change the talent. Maybe it's a good thing Jennings and others remained unsigned.
Do I think TD has made mistakes?- Sure- no GM is perfect
Do i think TD is a bad GM? Absolutely not.


Get off your damned high horse and quit talking down to people like you're the only one that can evaluate Donahoe appropriately. I hire and fire people too ... and I get judged based on their performance. I would expect nothing else and anyone in my position who would expect something different is either bad at it or incredibly unreasonable.

Needed a QB - he went out and overpaid a divisional rival for their backup. Trying to justify it as anything else is misplaced. We did not recoup the pick we gave up ... instead, we sacrificed a key part of our offense in order to pick up another first rounder.

Needed defense - he spent all of our cap money on our defense so that we now no longer have any room to pick up free agent linemen. Our defense still could hardly stop the Jets at all today and has been at the bottom of the barrel in turnovers every year of his tenure.

McGahee - you want a name? How about Eric Steinbach. Seems to me, the problem with our running game (and our offense in general) has been our OL, not our RB.

Draft picks - Wire wasn't a gamble? McGahee wasn't a gamble? At the end of the day, what does it matter what the media or the fans thought of the picks on the day of the draft? Those people have incredibly limited knowledge compared to those employed by NFL teams. Freeney was considered a bad pick by the Colts, but that worked out well. No, the only fair way to judge Donahoe is by the performance of his picks, not by their popularity. And his picks have not performed well. If we're going to judge Donahoe's drafts by their popularity, why not go out and get a good solid draft guide or two and just compare the rankings? There's no reason for a GM, the popular decisions are the right ones.

Salary cap - piss poor job. We're an untalented team and have no cap room next year. A lot of that has to do with bad contracts - Bledsoe, Teague, Prioleau, Lindell, McGahee (yes, if we had picked someone else, we wouldn't have his cap room tied up in a position that we don't need help), Posey (overpaid for his role), Campbell, Milloy, and Shaw to name a few. Yes, we haven't gone over the cap, but that's because we don't have a good team, nothing else.

[HenryRules]

I agree with that...but we've had a good cap situation for 2 years now...a lot of talent both years that doesn't seem to put it together

What talent? At what positions do you think we have better than median-quality talent (that's top-15 or so).

[Dozerdog]

Get off your damned high horse and quit talking down to people like you're the only one that can evaluate Donahoe appropriately. I hire and fire people too ... and I get judged based on their performance. I would expect nothing else and anyone in my position who would expect something different is either bad at it or incredibly unreasonable.

Needed a QB - he went out and overpaid a divisional rival for their backup. Trying to justify it as anything else is misplaced. We did not recoup the pick we gave up ... instead, we sacrificed a key part of our offense in order to pick up another first rounder.

Needed defense - he spent all of our cap money on our defense so that we now no longer have any room to pick up free agent linemen. Our defense still could hardly stop the Jets at all today and has been at the bottom of the barrel in turnovers every year of his tenure.

McGahee - you want a name? How about Eric Steinbach. Seems to me, the problem with our running game (and our offense in general) has been our OL, not our RB.

Draft picks - Wire wasn't a gamble? McGahee wasn't a gamble? At the end of the day, what does it matter what the media or the fans thought of the picks on the day of the draft? Those people have incredibly limited knowledge compared to those employed by NFL teams. Freeney was considered a bad pick by the Colts, but that worked out well. No, the only fair way to judge Donahoe is by the performance of his picks, not by their popularity. And his picks have not performed well. If we're going to judge Donahoe's drafts by their popularity, why not go out and get a good solid draft guide or two and just compare the rankings? There's no reason for a GM, the popular decisions are the right ones.

Salary cap - piss poor job. We're an untalented team and have no cap room next year. A lot of that has to do with bad contracts - Bledsoe, Teague, Prioleau, Lindell, McGahee (yes, if we had picked someone else, we wouldn't have his cap room tied up in a position that we don't need help), Posey (overpaid for his role), Campbell, Milloy, and Shaw to name a few. Yes, we haven't gone over the cap, but that's because we don't have a good team, nothing else.


:rofl:


Now who's being arrogant? It's my assesment. I'm not knocking anyone for their opinions on the guy.

[HenryRules]

:rofl:


Now who's being arrogant? It's my assesment. I'm not knocking anyone for their opinions on the guy.


Really ... then why did you bring up your background?

Saying something like "maybe its because of my background - I hire and fire people too" is basically the same thing as saying "I am in a similar job as Tom Donahoe, so I can evaluate him correctly."

If you think I'm misinterpreting "maybe its because of my background", then please explain why you put it in there? It doesn't add anything to your evaluation of Tom Donahoe unless you're using it to strengthen your case.

[Dozerdog]

Really ... then why did you bring up your background?

Saying something like "maybe its because of my background - I hire and fire people too" is basically the same thing as saying "I am in a similar job as Tom Donahoe, so I can evaluate him correctly."

If you think I'm misinterpreting "maybe its because of my background", then please explain why you put it in there? It doesn't add anything to your evaluation of Tom Donahoe unless you're using it to strengthen your case.

I was bringing up a perspective of having to evaluate people out of personal experience- I don't see how that's being arrogant.

I was offering possibly a reason why I was being more forgiving on making player moves that may or may not have panned out.


Geesh- sorry to have offended you by it....

[Dozerdog]

I'm just curious how you get from point A- (TD's own evaluation of the drafts) to point B- him being arrogant.

[HenryRules]

I'm just curious how you get from point A- (TD's own evaluation of the drafts) to point B- him being arrogant.

The entire tone of the article is "everything we have done here, and the staff that we have assembled, is absolutely perfect and no mistakes have been made. Why do I have to explain this to someone like you?" I call that arrogance. As far as the "why do I have to explain this to someone like you?" Well, I do agree that Donahoe shouldn't have to answer these questions ... however, the Bills provide this forum for questions (and as president, Donahoe can definitely stop them if he wants), so he can't really act like this act is beneath him.

In the entire NFL, we had one of the least productive 2002 and 2003 drafts, yet Donahoe doesn't even answer the guy's question about us not getting any production from those drafts so far. Instead, he says that our players are improving day in and day out. Nothing at all about the lack of production. Nothing at all about other teams getting production from their 2002 and 2003 drafts. I'm sure that every team in the NFL feels their young players are improving.

and the comment about having to overturn the roster is clearly an attempt to place blame for this season's lack of success on the previous administration - a need to overhaul the roster implies that the previous administration stunk.

[Dozerdog]

The entire tone of the article is "everything we have done here, and the staff that we have assembled, is absolutely perfect and no mistakes have been made. Why do I have to explain this to someone like you?" I call that arrogance. As far as the "why do I have to explain this to someone like you?" Well, I do agree that Donahoe shouldn't have to answer these questions ... however, the Bills provide this forum for questions (and as president, Donahoe can definitely stop them if he wants), so he can't really act like this act is beneath him.

In the entire NFL, we had one of the least productive 2002 and 2003 drafts, yet Donahoe doesn't even answer the guy's question about us not getting any production from those drafts so far. Instead, he says that our players are improving day in and day out. Nothing at all about the lack of production. Nothing at all about other teams getting production from their 2002 and 2003 drafts. I'm sure that every team in the NFL feels their young players are improving.

and the comment about having to overturn the roster is clearly an attempt to place blame for this season's lack of success on the previous administration - a need to overhaul the roster implies that the previous administration stunk.

But we have not scored enough points.

We have not taken advantage of some of our opportunities to this point in the season. That doesn't mean that we won't. Some of our big name players have played very well and, at times, some of our players have struggled in certain situations.


At times our performance needs to be better. The players realize that and the coaches realize that and they'll continue to work hard at it until we get it the way we want it.

Our players and coaches are mentally into the game. Some things have happened to us in the early stages of the season and some of them are beyond our control and some of them are under our control.

We have a staff that is mentally tough and is working very hard to correct the mistakes that we are making. While there is no easy answer to it, it's just hard work and it's better study and preparation and better execution.

The offensive line is still a work in progress for us.


I don't see an "Everything is perfect" attitude in these quotes.

The previous administration (GM John Butler) took an aggressive Free Agent approach. It is a proven method for success- but we paid the price with the second worst cap overage in the league at the end of 2000. The 1999 and 2000 drafts didn't replenish the roster enough to compensate for the cap casualties of Ted Washington, Sam Rogers, Gabe Northern, Bruce Smith, Henry Jones, Ken Irvin, Thomas Smith, Holecek......and so on.

[EDS]

The entire tone of the article is "everything we have done here, and the staff that we have assembled, is absolutely perfect and no mistakes have been made. Why do I have to explain this to someone like you?" I call that arrogance. As far as the "why do I have to explain this to someone like you?" Well, I do agree that Donahoe shouldn't have to answer these questions ... however, the Bills provide this forum for questions (and as president, Donahoe can definitely stop them if he wants), so he can't really act like this act is beneath him.

In the entire NFL, we had one of the least productive 2002 and 2003 drafts, yet Donahoe doesn't even answer the guy's question about us not getting any production from those drafts so far. Instead, he says that our players are improving day in and day out. Nothing at all about the lack of production. Nothing at all about other teams getting production from their 2002 and 2003 drafts. I'm sure that every team in the NFL feels their young players are improving.

and the comment about having to overturn the roster is clearly an attempt to place blame for this season's lack of success on the previous administration - a need to overhaul the roster implies that the previous administration stunk.

I think you are rteading a little too much into this article. Do you expect him or anyone else in that position to criticize his staff? Turning over the roster was a direct result of the salary cap position the team was in. Most of the players the bills released never played a significant role in the NFL again - Sam Rogers, Keion Carpenter, Henry Jones, John Holecek, Doug Flutie, etc. Some players have achieved moderate success, such as Marcellus Wiley and Antwoin Smith, but neither of those guys are any better then there replacements (Schoebel, Henry).

The draft picks are still young and may yet become solid contributors. Both Evans and McGahee showed something tonight - both have the speed and playmaking ability to be big stars in the NFL.

I agree with Dozer Dog and his assessment of TD.

[HenryRules]

DD, I agree that elsewhere in the article he admitted to shortcomings, however he didn't in his draft. The draft is the only thing for which he can take complete responsibility - he delegates playcalling, roster decisions, playing, etc. However, on draft day, the final decision comes down to him and that's the part that I feel he is completely arrogant about.

Related to this, I'm normally one of the people who says TD does not have a lack of ego (in fact, one of his problems is that he continues to solve the same problem inadequately multiple times: LE, WR, K, QB, etc.), but when it comes to the draft, he never admits to a mistake.

[HenryRules]

I think you are rteading a little too much into this article. Do you expect him or anyone else in that position to criticize his staff? Turning over the roster was a direct result of the salary cap position the team was in. Most of the players the bills released never played a significant role in the NFL again - Sam Rogers, Keion Carpenter, Henry Jones, John Holecek, Doug Flutie, etc. Some players have achieved moderate success, such as Marcellus Wiley and Antwoin Smith, but neither of those guys are any better then there replacements (Schoebel, Henry).

The draft picks are still young and may yet become solid contributors. Both Evans and McGahee showed something tonight - both have the speed and playmaking ability to be big stars in the NFL.

I agree with Dozer Dog and his assessment of TD.

I don't expect him to criticize his staff ... but I would expect something like "Our drafts are done with the intention of improving the team 3 years down the road - some of our guys weren't going to be ready in the first two years, but are really going to perform well in the next few years." Donahoe responds like it is beneath him to explain something like that to a fan that pays his salary.

Again, if Donahoe doesn't want to do these things or give a decent answer, then he shouldn't do them. Once he decides to open up to questions, he should at least answer the questions.

[EDS]

I don't expect him to criticize his staff ... but I would expect something like "Our drafts are done with the intention of improving the team 3 years down the road - some of our guys weren't going to be ready in the first two years, but are really going to perform well in the next few years." Donahoe responds like it is beneath him to explain something like that to a fan that pays his salary.

Again, if Donahoe doesn't want to do these things or give a decent answer, then he shouldn't do them. Once he decides to open up to questions, he should at least answer the questions.

Isn't that what he said when he talks about the player improving? The players are young, that is obvious, most will improve, even if that improvement is from one level of suckiness to another, it is still improvement.

[HenryRules]

Isn't that what he said when he talks about the player improving? The players are young, that is obvious, most will improve, even if that improvement is from one level of suckiness to another, it is still improvement.

I don't think so ... Henry contributed a lot his first year and improved for his second. Schoebel contributed a lot his first year and improved before his second and third.

I think the players improvement is quite different than drafting to fill immediate needs.

[Mr. Cynical]

The previous administration (GM John Butler) took an aggressive Free Agent approach. It is a proven method for success- but we paid the price with the second worst cap overage in the league at the end of 2000. The 1999 and 2000 drafts didn't replenish the roster enough to compensate for the cap casualties of Ted Washington, Sam Rogers, Gabe Northern, Bruce Smith, Henry Jones, Ken Irvin, Thomas Smith, Holecek......and so on.I'm getting tired of hearing about the "cap jail" TD inherited. As I stated in the other thread, when TD took over we had a #3 ranked defense. While I give you losing Ted was a big loss...the others?

Northern and T. Smith played for other teams in '00, so they were not part of the #3 defense TD inherited.

TD's moves to "clear cap room" on the defense:

Irvin: Went to Saints in '01. Released '02.
Rogers: Went to SD in '01. Released '02.
B. Smith: Useful but not a major factor at that point.
Holecek: Went to Atlanta for very little money.
Henry: Went to Vikings 01. Released '02. Went to Atlanta. Released '03.

So I still fail to see how a #3 defense falls to #21 when primarily losing non-impact players. I think the easier explanation is the coaching, drafting and FAs...all things TD is responsible for.

Edit: And as I've said before, I'll take a few years of cap jail for a few years of playoff/SB contention every day of the week. I don't want an accountant running the team. I want someone who has the ability to help the team win.

[ParanoidAndroid]

You know what? Bashing TD in an attempt to put a finger on why this team is 0-4 is probably not going to make anyone feel better. Draft picks are always a gamble. It just so happens we've been having a little more bad luck than some other teams. I still can't fault TD for the McGahee pick because if he get's back to 100%, he'll be an upgrade over Henry. So far I like his chances. He looked pretty good today. As much as I like him for his effort and attitude, TH is a horrible receiver and a mediocre pass blocker at best. (Hopefully, we can get a second round pick for him because there's no way he's worth a first.) Did we need a RB? No. Was there anyone with more potential value at that point in the draft? Maybe, but probably not. The position we need to take the hardest look at is all along the O-line. If we had a line that could actually pick up a blitz, Bledsoe would be a better QB and our receivers would look better, including Reed. Does anyone think Lee Evans is going to be a bust? McGee? Schobel? What about Rashad Baker? He's an UFA with some solid potential. The good thing about being 0-4 is that we might be able to see Losman play a few games this year. :D The bad thing about being 0-4 is that Dallas gets our 1st round pick. :mad: I think we're mistaking good luck for genius and bad luck for stupidity.

[Mr. Cynical]

just so happens we've been having a little more bad luck than some other teams.Little more bad luck?

Updated 10/9/04:

Since '01:

Lions: 13-39
Bills: 17-35 (7 game losing streak)
Cards: 17-35
Bengals: 17-34
Chargers: 19-33
<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

[Dozerdog]

I'm getting tired of hearing about the "cap jail" TD inherited. As I stated in the other thread, when TD took over we had a #3 ranked defense. While I give you losing Ted was a big loss...the others?

Northern and T. Smith played for other teams in '00, so they were not part of the #3 defense TD inherited.

TD's moves to "clear cap room" on the defense:

Irvin: Went to Saints in '01. Released '02.
Rogers: Went to SD in '01. Released '02.
B. Smith: Useful but not a major factor at that point.
Holecek: Went to Atlanta for very little money.
Henry: Went to Vikings 01. Released '02. Went to Atlanta. Released '03.

So I still fail to see how a #3 defense falls to #21 when primarily losing non-impact players. I think the easier explanation is the coaching, drafting and FAs...all things TD is responsible for.

Edit: And as I've said before, I'll take a few years of cap jail for a few years of playoff/SB contention every day of the week. I don't want an accountant running the team. I want someone who has the ability to help the team win.


OK- so you want to live in denial about the economics behind the decisions.

With the benefit of hindsight- what would you have done different?


Again- with the benefit of hindsight- I would have cut both Flutie and RJ, let Moulds go- See if I could have extended Price cheaper, take all the cap hit at once (scorched earth) , try to keep Wiley, probably finish with the worst record overall- draft Peppers or Harrington, and hired John Fox

[Mr. Cynical]

OK- so you want to live in denial about the economics behind the decisions.

With the benefit of hindsight- what would you have done different?


Again- with the benefit of hindsight- I would have cut both Flutie and RJ, let Moulds go- See if I could have extended Price cheaper, take all the cap hit at once (scorched earth) , try to keep Wiley, probably finish with the worst record overall- draft Peppers or Harrington, and hired John FoxTalk about living in denial....you still cling to the fantasy that TD is a good GM. We can argue back and forth whether or not he made the "best decisions at the time", but the bottom line reality is that the Bills are 17-35, riding a 7 game losing streak, and are in all probability not going to have a winning season for the 4th consecutive year under his tenure. If that isn't grounds for getting fired then what is? 17-100? Tell me under what conditions you would fire TD.

At some point, regardless of all the "ifs, ands or buts", as the GM he has to be held accountable. What matters in the end are results on the field. Do you not agree with that?

[shelby]

Again- with the benefit of hindsight- I would have cut both Flutie and RJ, let Moulds go- See if I could have extended Price cheaper, take all the cap hit at once (scorched earth) , try to keep Wiley, probably finish with the worst record overall- draft Peppers or Harrington, and hired John Fox

John Fox...wonder what he could have done here as HC...
:sadwalk:

[Earthquake Enyart]

If Dozer is so smart about hiring and firing people, how did he end up with the administrator and moderator staff he has assembled here? :nerd2:

[EDS]

I'm getting tired of hearing about the "cap jail" TD inherited. As I stated in the other thread, when TD took over we had a #3 ranked defense. While I give you losing Ted was a big loss...the others?

Northern and T. Smith played for other teams in '00, so they were not part of the #3 defense TD inherited.

TD's moves to "clear cap room" on the defense:

Irvin: Went to Saints in '01. Released '02.
Rogers: Went to SD in '01. Released '02.
B. Smith: Useful but not a major factor at that point.
Holecek: Went to Atlanta for very little money.
Henry: Went to Vikings 01. Released '02. Went to Atlanta. Released '03.

So I still fail to see how a #3 defense falls to #21 when primarily losing non-impact players. I think the easier explanation is the coaching, drafting and FAs...all things TD is responsible for.

Edit: And as I've said before, I'll take a few years of cap jail for a few years of playoff/SB contention every day of the week. I don't want an accountant running the team. I want someone who has the ability to help the team win.

I think one big factor in the decline of the defense was the injuries to Sam Cowart. He was a great player prior to the injuries and his absence, coupled with the lose of Wiley and Washington explain the defenses decline. After Cowart's injuries TD did not give him the big contract he demanded and signed Fletcher for half. That, in hindsight was a good move because Cowart has yet to play up to his contract and Fletcher has been a solid player for the Bills at a reasonable price.

And I think the decision to sign Moulds over Wiley is still a good one. Wiley had a couple of good years rushing the passer in Sand Diego but was never a well rounded player.

[Jan Reimers]

Donahoe's record speaks for itself. We are now 17-35 on his watch, including 0-4 in what is now his 4th year. The Bills are definitely built in his image - they are arrogant, with nothing to be arrogant about.

[The_Philster]

Last edited by Earthquake Enyart : Today at 07:37 AM. Reason: :nerd: didn't make the cut. Stupid 2.0 :mad: :rofl:

[Dozerdog]

Talk about living in denial....you still cling to the fantasy that TD is a good GM. We can argue back and forth whether or not he made the "best decisions at the time", but the bottom line reality is that the Bills are 17-35, riding a 7 game losing streak, and are in all probability not going to have a winning season for the 4th consecutive year under his tenure. If that isn't grounds for getting fired then what is? 17-100? Tell me under what conditions you would fire TD.

At some point, regardless of all the "ifs, ands or buts", as the GM he has to be held accountable. What matters in the end are results on the field. Do you not agree with that?



I still don't see any answers on what you would have done different-


I would fire TD if the team was not compeditive aganst any opponent.
I'd fire him if Mularkey flops like GW did. (4 games is not enough)
I'd fire TD if he were to start making irrational football moves (See Rick Spielman)
I'd fire him if he put the financial sheet of this team in such dire straights that the sale of the team to the highest bidder (and move to LA) would be necissary

One thing I wouldn't do is create an atmosphere where no GM on the planet would come here unless he's desperate.

[Mr. Cynical]

I still don't see any answers on what you would have done different-


I would fire TD if the team was not compeditive aganst any opponent.
I'd fire him if Mularkey flops like GW did. (4 games is not enough)
I'd fire TD if he were to start making irrational football moves (See Rick Spielman)
I'd fire him if he put the financial sheet of this team in such dire straights that the sale of the team to the highest bidder (and move to LA) would be necissary

One thing I wouldn't do is create an atmosphere where no GM on the planet would come here unless he's desperate.What's interesting that in your reasons for firing him, not one was based on the team actually winning games. In the end that is all that counts, regardless of the excuses or reasons. From your description, it just feels like you want an accountant not a GM.

I don't think firing TD would make Buffalo look like a GM carousel. How many have the Bills had in the last 20 years? 3?

[Dozerdog]

What's interesting that in your reasons for firing him, not one was based on the team actually winning games. In the end that is all that counts, regardless of the excuses or reasons. From your description, it just feels like you want an accountant not a GM.

I don't think firing TD would make Buffalo look like a GM carousel. How many have the Bills had in the last 20 years? 3?

Well- if you are going to hold a GM's feet to the fire expecting him to clean house and put a winning product out there immediatly- and if you run a team pretending there is no cap- thus you can sign anyone at any time at any price- then I think the expectations are a bit unrealistic.


I'm not happy the team's losing. If it continues and gets worse instead of better down the road then it's time to dump the guy. But I'm also trying to be as objective and realistic as possible in assessing everyone's performance.

A person can do everything expected of him- do things exactly the way they are supposed to be done - yet still fail.

I beleive that TD has made good moves, bad moves, and average moves. But I beleive he's had more of a positive impact on the franchise than a negative one.

[Dozerdog]

I'm trying my best to provide you answers why I don't think TD is the problem. Like 'em or not - agree or disagree.

But I still haven't heard from you on who we should have kept on this team and maintain that #3 defense in 2000- ........


.....Unless you just don't have an answer or just use it as a convenient bat to hit TD with.

[Ebenezer]

OK- so you want to live in denial about the economics behind the decisions.

With the benefit of hindsight- what would you have done different?


Again- with the benefit of hindsight- I would have cut both Flutie and RJ, let Moulds go- See if I could have extended Price cheaper, take all the cap hit at once (scorched earth) , try to keep Wiley, probably finish with the worst record overall- draft Peppers or Harrington, and hired John Fox
no you could not...it was not possible to cut both RJ and Flutie when they did because of the salary cap...to get rid of both would have meant getting rid of even more players.

[Ebenezer]

I'm trying my best to provide you answers why I don't think TD is the problem. Like 'em or not - agree or disagree.

But I still haven't heard from you on who we should have kept on this team and maintain that #3 defense in 2000- ........


.....Unless you just don't have an answer or just use it as a convenient bat to hit TD with.


they don't...been asking the same questions since TD was brought here, nobody ever answers it...the better litmus test is what people thought of the moves at the time...

[Dozerdog]

no you could not...it was not possible to cut both RJ and Flutie when they did because of the salary cap...to get rid of both would have meant getting rid of even more players.


Well-again with the complete benefit of hindsight- cut 'em. Did it matter if we kept or lost players when you're 3-13?

Scortched earth-

[HenryRules]

OK- so you want to live in denial about the economics behind the decisions.

With the benefit of hindsight- what would you have done different?


Again- with the benefit of hindsight- I would have cut both Flutie and RJ, let Moulds go- See if I could have extended Price cheaper, take all the cap hit at once (scorched earth) , try to keep Wiley, probably finish with the worst record overall- draft Peppers or Harrington, and hired John Fox

I've told you what I would have done in hindsight, but you never commented on it (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?p=753260#post753260). Would you care to comment on how unrealistic those expectations are?

Here's the post:

<i>What has he done to manage the cap well? Take a look at what Mike Williams, Drew Bledsoe, Willis McGahee, Rian Lindell, Pierson Prieaulou and Trey Teague are costing us against the cap this year and next. If we can't afford Woody for his contract, then what do you think about Williams and his 6 mil hit next year? Does that $300K that we saved from Hollis look like a sound investment?

And also, why does it have to be Schoebel v. Woody? Why can't it be Drew and McGahee v. Woody with a couple mil to spare? I'd take Woody in those circumstances.

As to what could be done differently, Donahoe's failures start with the draft. We have gotten next to no help from the 2002 and 2003 draft class. I'm not expecting every pick to be perfect, but here's a sampling of players that were available and would have helped us for those first day picks (not all the better choices, just the choices that would fit us right now and came to mind with a quick glance - i.e. I don't name Clinton Portis):

Mike Williams - Bryant McKinnie, Levi Jones, Dwight Freeney, Ed Reed. McKinnie and Jones may not be a whole bunch better than Williams, but they were also available later and show that Williams was not worth where he was picked.
Josh Reed - Andre Gurode, LeCharles Bentley, Tank Williams
Ryan Denney - Deion Branch, Antwaan Randel El, Seth McKinnie

Willis McGahee - Eric Steinbach, Eugene Wilson, Vince Manowei. What's our weakest OL position? Would Steinbach or Manowei help us out?

Hmm ... two Bengals picks made that list (and both OL) ... wonder why they're a team that is showing promise?

Asking much from the 2nd and 3rd rounders last year is a bit much ... but none of the 4 picks listed is helping us the way they should.

So specific moves in a realistic world? Our starting O would be:
WR - Moulds
LT - Levi Jones
LG - Smith/Tucker (still a weakness, but stronger everywhere else)
C - Kendall (In a dream world, Kendall is at LG and LeCharles Bentley is our C or vice versa, but I tried to be realistic, not perfect)
RG - Manowei
RT - Jennings
TE - Campbell
WR - Deion Branch
FB - Shelton
RB - Henry
QB - my top two choices would be Warner or Collins to go with JP. Guys like Blake, Stewart, or Quincy Carter would be just as successful as Bledsoe is right now.

There's definitely cap savings with that offense (money saved on Williams by trading down, Teague + Villerial = Kendall + Manowei, McGahee isn't there, Bledsoe's contract is worth more than Warner's and I think Collins would have signed a cheaper deal if given the opportunity to start). The OL is much improved IMO and improving. I've also gone with the assumption that we picked up Bledsoe with a 1st still, so there's that pick if you want to really improve.

I don't know everyone that's been a free agent over the last little while, but with those moves we've got some cap space kicking around to improve at DE (I don't have time to go through the list of available guys over the past few years there).

At the end of the day, about 20 other GM's have made the playoffs during Donahoe's time here and that's all that really needs saying.

I've told you how Donahoe could improve ... would you mind telling me which GM's you think have done a worse job?</i>

[Mr. Cynical]

Well- if you are going to hold a GM's feet to the fire expecting him to clean house and put a winning product out there immediatly4 years does not = immediately.


A person can do everything expected of him- do things exactly the way they are supposed to be done - yet still fail. Football is a profit business and TD is the CEO. In a profit business, nobody cares how hard you try or if you appear to be doing the right things. If you don't produce, you're gone.

4 years, a 17-35 record and a current 7 game losing streak is not producing. He needs to go.

[Mr. Cynical]

Nice detailed post HR. :up:

[Historian]

4 years, a 17-35 record and a current 7 game losing streak is not producing. He needs to go.

I agree. Unfortunately, as I've said before, it isn't going to happen because they're laughing all the way to the bank.

[SABURZFAN]

"Save the postage!"

That about sums it up for me.


i'll save myself the troubles by not going to seattle and san francisco too.

[EDS]

Just to throw some kindling on the fire: When talking about the arogance of a GM, do you think these GM's are arrogant:

Ozzie Newsome - complete and utter arrogance in not getting a legitimate NFL quarterback to consistently move the chains and waisting one of the greatest defensive teams of all time?

Daniel Snyder - complete and utter arrogance for spending money with willful abandon and for signing "superstar" coaches with the hope of masking deeper problems?

Jerry Jones/Bill Parcells - complete and utter arrogance for not getting a legitimate NFL running back and relying on a 40 year old quarterback?

Marvin Lewis - complete and utter arrogance for starting a green quarterback in place of a pro bowl veteran on a team with playoff expectations?

Butch Davis - complete and utter arrogance in drafting busts such as Tim Couch, William Green, Courtney Brown, etc?

Minnesota - complete and utter arrogance in not putting together any semblance of a competent defense and wasting a great offense.

The list goes on, but you see what I am saying. Every franchise has moves they regret, but it is hard to know before hand which moves will work and which will backfire. Bill Polian has stated that he was torn as to whether to draft Manning or "the other guy." He made the right call but he could have easily taken Leaf and been considered a complete failure.

The list goes on

[Michael82]

Just to throw some kindling on the fire: When talking about the arogance of a GM, do you think these GM's are arrogant:

Ozzie Newsome - complete and utter arrogance in not getting a legitimate NFL quarterback to consistently move the chains and waisting one of the greatest defensive teams of all time?

Daniel Snyder - complete and utter arrogance for spending money with willful abandon and for signing "superstar" coaches with the hope of masking deeper problems?

Jerry Jones/Bill Parcells - complete and utter arrogance for not getting a legitimate NFL running back and relying on a 40 year old quarterback?

Marvin Lewis - complete and utter arrogance for starting a green quarterback in place of a pro bowl veteran on a team with playoff expectations?

Butch Davis - complete and utter arrogance in drafting busts such as Tim Couch, William Green, Courtney Brown, etc?

Minnesota - complete and utter arrogance in not putting together any semblance of a competent defense and wasting a great offense.

The list goes on, but you see what I am saying. Every franchise has moves they regret, but it is hard to know before hand which moves will work and which will backfire. Bill Polian has stated that he was torn as to whether to draft Manning or "the other guy." He made the right call but he could have easily taken Leaf and been considered a complete failure.

The list goes on
Thank you! That was a great post. :bf1: