Official get rid of Donahoe Thread

[OpIv37]

TD has put a horrible product on the field. Last year, I thought GW and KG were the problem- while I wouldn't ever want them back, it's now clear that they weren't given much to work with. The inexperienced coaching staff has yet to instill discipline in the players. We have great skill players (with the possible exception of Bledsoe, but even he can still gun it when he has time), but an O-line that's so bad that these guys never get to touch the ball. The defense has been vastly improved, but the O-line's poor play keeps them on the field too long. Also, TD's draft picks have been useless (the jury's still out on Losman, Evans and McGahee, but even with McGahee, he was a 1st rounder who didn't contribute his first year at all).

The point is that he seems to have no overall strategy for building this team. A QB is useless without an O-line (especially Bledsoe), a defense is useless if they can't stay off the field, and the talk about running the ball is just talk. There aren't even any quality TE's or FB's on the roster.

I wish Ralph had the balls to can him. TD may have sold some tickets but he hasn't improved the team.

[Mr. Cynical]

1998: 10-6 (Wade's first year)
Offense rank: 7
Defense rank: 7

1999: 11-5
Offense rank: 12
Defense rank: 1

2000: 8-8
Offense Rank: 9
Defense Rank: 3

2001: 3-13 (TD/GW first year)
Offense Rank: 13
Defense Rank: 21

2002: 8-8 (TD/GW first year)
Offense Rank: 8
Defense Rank: 15

2003: 6-10 (TD/GW first year)
Offense Rank: 28
Defense Rank: 2

2004: 0-4 (7 game losing streak)
Offense Rank: n/a
Defense Rank: n/a


Looking at these numbers, TD inherited a defense ranked #3 in the league and destroyed it. Then had to rebuild it back again for 3 years. Offensively they also went the wrong way except for '02, but alot of that had to do with the big numbers for the first half of the season.

My question is this: who did TD release on the D when he took over? To fall from 3 to 21 is huge and I don't remember what players he let go.

[Wolffman]

Donahoe ignored the two biggest needs of this team, a OG and a DE, and a 0-4 start is what he got. Thats not to mention how he traded TWO first round picks away during his tenure here, and what did we get out of them? A statue and a cripple. He should be fired.

[don137]

Donahoe ignored the two biggest needs of this team, a OG and a DE, and a 0-4 start is what he got. Thats not to mention how he traded TWO first round picks away during his tenure here, and what did we get out of them? A statue and a cripple. He should be fired.

I just can't help to think that if Buffalo didn't come from behind against Carolina back in 2001 the Bills would of had Peppers instead of Mike Williams...

[Michael82]

I just can't help to think that if Buffalo didn't come from behind against Carolina back in 2001 the Bills would of had Peppers instead of Mike Williams...
You had to say that. :mad: :sadwalk:

[Wolffman]

I just can't help to think that if Buffalo didn't come from behind against Carolina back in 2001 the Bills would of had Peppers instead of Mike Williams...

Your probibly right. Wasn't Harrington taken after Williams?

[The_Philster]

no

[Wolffman]

Didn't think so.

[The_Philster]

no
http://ww2.nfl.com/draft/2002/round/round1.html

[OpIv37]

My question is this: who did TD release on the D when he took over? To fall from 3 to 21 is huge and I don't remember what players he let go.

The #3 defense had Bryce Paup, Spielman, and Bruce Smith. None of them ended up on the team- Bruce was a cap casualty but I don't remember what happened to the other two. I think one of them retired for either health or family reasons.

[Michael82]

The only good players on that defense that TD got rid of were Ted Washington and Marcellus Wiley. Wiley has sucked the last couple years and Big Ted was replaced by Sam Adams.

[Michael82]

Henry Jones was washed up and done. Keion Carpenter was pretty good, but he left. Sam Cowart was injured and was replaced nicely by London Fletcher. Sam Rogers didn't do much with Wade in Atlanta. Either did Holecek. Antoine Winfield left because of the money and only the money.

The only one I hated to see leave was Jay Foreman. He is doing GREAT in Houston and we traded him for Charlie Rogers. :ill: :puke:

[Charlieguide]

. . .

My question is this: who did TD release on the D when he took over? To fall from 3 to 21 is huge and I don't remember what players he let go.

I didn't realize TD and GW had so many first years together. :snicker:

Who did they realease from defense? How about -- over two years -- Big Ted "Mount" Washington (duh), Bruce Smith (who still had game left and wasn't offered a pay cut), Marcellus Wiley, Sam Cowart (200+ tackles), John Holecek (one of the last to go, after they gave him a shot at OLB:eek2:), and Hansen retired. At the time, we were rotating seven defensive linemen worthy of starting on most teams.

They said it was for cap reasons. They also say, if the player wants to stay, and the team wants him, you can find a way.

GW said 'yeah, you were #2, but who was #1?" then tried to fit players to a system instead of fitting a system to players.

:mad: :fury:

[Michael82]

I blame Gregg for the defense getting torn apart. He tried to fit a bunch of players in a defense that wouldn't work, so he got rid of them. He wouldn't make the defense around the players, he wanted the players around his defense. :cynic: :mad:

[Charlieguide]

The key to that entire D was Big Ted. He makes everyone around him better.

Note the dropoff in Offense the year they let go of Price, Jay R., and Centers, all of whom TD/GW/KG thought were "replaceable."

[Charlieguide]

I blame Gregg for the defense getting torn apart. He tried to fit a bunch of players in a defense that wouldn't work, so he got rid of them. He wouldn't make the defense around the players, he wanted the players around his defense. :cynic: :mad:

great minds think alike? :up:

[The Natrix]

I think TD has had some bad luck. Most of us liked most of his decisions at the time each one was made. However, I think he does need to go after this season unless there is some miraculous turnaround. A fresh start at GM needs to be had along with Evans, JP, Willis, and hopefully some young, promising defensive talent.

[OpIv37]

The key to that entire D was Big Ted. He makes everyone around him better.

Note the dropoff in Offense the year they let go of Price, Jay R., and Centers, all of whom TD/GW/KG thought were "replaceable."

Jay R sucks but I agree regarding the other two. The problem is that they let those players go saying they were going to emphasize the run, which makes sense when you have Campbell and Gash instead of Price and Centers. But they never changed their style with the new personnel. It comes down to the guy at the top. Either KG and GW were being stubborn morons, or they were doing the best they could with what they had- regardless, it's TD's fault.

[Michael82]

I think TD has had some bad luck. Most of us liked most of his decisions at the time each one was made. However, I think he does need to go after this season unless there is some miraculous turnaround. A fresh start at GM needs to be had along with Evans, JP, Willis, and hopefully some young, promising defensive talent.
If you scrap the GM, you might as well, start a whole brand new rebuilding phase for 3 years. I can't see Bills fans letting that happen. Honestly, I think this season, because of it being Mularkey's first year is a wash. Ralph Wilson will tell Donahoe to build an offensive line and fix the defensive line. We will get some help in the 2ndary and then Ralph will tell TD..."look, this is your final chance. If you don't get the team to the playoffs, you are OUT of here."

[Turf]

If you scrap the GM, you might as well, start a whole brand new rebuilding phase for 3 years. I can't see Bills fans letting that happen. Honestly, I think this season, because of it being Mularkey's first year is a wash. Ralph Wilson will tell Donahoe to build an offensive line and fix the defensive line. We will get some help in the 2ndary and then Ralph will tell TD..."look, this is your final chance. If you don't get the team to the playoffs, you are OUT of here."

That's comforting....... :tired:

[The Natrix]

If you scrap the GM, you might as well, start a whole brand new rebuilding phase for 3 years. I can't see Bills fans letting that happen. Honestly, I think this season, because of it being Mularkey's first year is a wash. Ralph Wilson will tell Donahoe to build an offensive line and fix the defensive line. We will get some help in the 2ndary and then Ralph will tell TD..."look, this is your final chance. If you don't get the team to the playoffs, you are OUT of here."

That would be fine with me. I won't mind if he stays, but I wouldn't mind if he is fired, either.

Putting this thing off another year is going to be difficult however as many key players are in their 30's. I see a similar team on the field next year, with maybe a slightly improved record, but no playoffs. Then comes the significant rebuilding phase. I do think the rebuilding could occur quickly and effectively though, as I like our future prospects. These promising young players that are already here, could work in TD's favor, in terms of him staying for a few more years.

[OpIv37]

If you scrap the GM, you might as well, start a whole brand new rebuilding phase for 3 years. I can't see Bills fans letting that happen. Honestly, I think this season, because of it being Mularkey's first year is a wash. Ralph Wilson will tell Donahoe to build an offensive line and fix the defensive line. We will get some help in the 2ndary and then Ralph will tell TD..."look, this is your final chance. If you don't get the team to the playoffs, you are OUT of here."

If it takes three years, well, that would be excrutiatingly painful. But does anyone have any hope that TD can turn this team around? For four seasons, this team has struggled. Every time they fix the offense, the defense gets worse, or vice versa.

My point is that I'd rather begin the three years of rebuilding with a new GM now than let Donahoe f around until 2006 and start three years of rebuilding then.

[HenryRules]

I think TD has had some bad luck. Most of us liked most of his decisions at the time each one was made. However, I think he does need to go after this season unless there is some miraculous turnaround. A fresh start at GM needs to be had along with Evans, JP, Willis, and hopefully some young, promising defensive talent.

Who among us is anywhere near qualified to be a GM? Saying that a GM's moves are popular is a nothing - neither a positive nor a negative when evaluating his moves.

I'll agree/disagree at the time of the move, but at the end of the day, I know that all NFL personnel are more talented in this area than I am, so the last thing they should do is listen to me.

Instead of looking at how popular TD's moves have been, I compare the results of his moves compared to his competition. In that regards, the moves all look pretty bad.

[Historian]

If you scrap the GM, you might as well, start a whole brand new rebuilding phase for 3 years.

We need to scap Ralph is who we need to scrap. I'm sick and tired of him doing things on the cheap. This team is a result of that.

[Dozerdog]

1998: 10-6 (Wade's first year)
Offense rank: 7
Defense rank: 7

1999: 11-5
Offense rank: 12
Defense rank: 1

2000: 8-8
Offense Rank: 9
Defense Rank: 3

2001: 3-13 (TD/GW first year)
Offense Rank: 13
Defense Rank: 21

2002: 8-8 (TD/GW first year)
Offense Rank: 8
Defense Rank: 15

2003: 6-10 (TD/GW first year)
Offense Rank: 28
Defense Rank: 2

2004: 0-4 (7 game losing streak)
Offense Rank: n/a
Defense Rank: n/a


Looking at these numbers, TD inherited a defense ranked #3 in the league and destroyed it. Then had to rebuild it back again for 3 years. Offensively they also went the wrong way except for '02, but alot of that had to do with the big numbers for the first half of the season.

My question is this: who did TD release on the D when he took over? To fall from 3 to 21 is huge and I don't remember what players he let go.

Please tell me how Donahoe could have kept the #3 ranked Defense together in 2000. Who should we have kept? Who should have been the salary cap casualties to get us back under the cap? We were something like 15-20 million over the cap that season- with a cap of 56 million.

Here are the top 10 salaries of the team that year- and we still had Players like Ruben Brown and Moulds to sign (or lose)

2000 / Buffalo Bills

Player Base Salary Sign Bonus Other Bonus Total Salary Cap Value Position
Washington, Ted 4,762,800 DT
Fina, John $ 4,578,200 OL
Johnson, Rob $ 3,754,400 QB
Rogers, Sam $ 3,387,300 LB
Flutie, Doug $ 2,794,000 QB
Panos, Joe $ 2,654,000 OL
Jones, Henry $ 2,295,600 S
Ostroski, Jerry $ 2,244,300 OL
Hansen, Phil $ $ 2,096,500 DE
Holecek, John $ 2,023,500 LB

Now these are just the cap values, not the cap hits. Cutting RJ in 2000 would mean a cap hit of something on the order of 10 million.

http://asp.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/salaries/teamdetail.aspx?year=2000&team=3&order=CapValue+desc

[mybills]

TD <b>is</b> a GW. :mad:

[Dozerdog]

We need to scap Ralph is who we need to scrap. I'm sick and tired of him doing things on the cheap. This team is a result of that.


While I agree this team needs younger local ownership- (Mainly for stability) I don't know how in an era of the cap we do things "Cheaply"


You have an argument if this is 1971 Ralph Wilson Hiring Harvey Johnson. Or 1983 Ralph Wilson getting undercut by the USFL and frustrating Knox out of town with yearly player holdouts. Hiring Kay Stephenson.

But each team gets tons of TV money now. Who was the last lengthy holdout in training camp?

Is it your opinion we should boost ticket prices 50% to 60-80 a ticket like the rest of the league? On what part of the football operation can we spend the extra money?

I would be interested to know if any season ticket holders out there are willing to fork out 50% more for tickets if it meant hiring one of those $5 million per year coaches - like Spurrier, Parcells (if interested) or others

[Jayhawk]

either way I want the team to improve

[Dozerdog]

I just can't help to think that if Buffalo didn't come from behind against Carolina back in 2001 the Bills would of had Peppers instead of Mike Williams...


In retrospect I think we needed Harrington more than Peppers- but I do know I was all over Julius in the draft.

[Dozerdog]

Donahoe ignored the two biggest needs of this team, a OG and a DE, and a 0-4 start is what he got. Thats not to mention how he traded TWO first round picks away during his tenure here, and what did we get out of them? A statue and a cripple. He should be fired.


Granted- we need an OG desperately- or an established Center and move Teague to Guard- but we did spend a high pick on a DE in 2003, and Schobel is more than adequate at the other DE spot.


We are not 0-4 because of DE, and we didn't go 6-10 last season because of our DE.

[Mr. Cynical]

Please tell me how Donahoe could have kept the #3 ranked Defense together in 2000. Who should we have kept? Who should have been the salary cap casualties to get us back under the cap? We were something like 15-20 million over the cap that season- with a cap of 56 million.

Here are the top 10 salaries of the team that year- and we still had Players like Ruben Brown and Moulds to sign (or lose)

2000 / Buffalo Bills

Player Base Salary Sign Bonus Other Bonus Total Salary Cap Value Position
Washington, Ted 4,762,800 DT
Fina, John $ 4,578,200 OL
Johnson, Rob $ 3,754,400 QB
Rogers, Sam $ 3,387,300 LB
Flutie, Doug $ 2,794,000 QB
Panos, Joe $ 2,654,000 OL
Jones, Henry $ 2,295,600 S
Ostroski, Jerry $ 2,244,300 OL
Hansen, Phil $ $ 2,096,500 DE
Holecek, John $ 2,023,500 LB

Now these are just the cap values, not the cap hits. Cutting RJ in 2000 would mean a cap hit of something on the order of 10 million.

http://asp.usatoday.com/sports/football/nfl/salaries/teamdetail.aspx?year=2000&team=3&order=CapValue+desc

As I stated in the other thread, when TD took over we had a #3 ranked defense. While I give you losing Ted was a big loss...the others?

Northern and T. Smith played for other teams in '00, so they were not part of the #3 defense TD inherited.

TD's moves to "clear cap room" on the defense:

Irvin: Went to Saints in '01. Released '02.
Rogers: Went to SD in '01. Released '02.
B. Smith: Useful but not a major factor at that point.
Holecek: Went to Atlanta for very little money.
Henry: Went to Vikings 01. Released '02. Went to Atlanta. Released '03.

So I still fail to see how a #3 defense falls to #21 when primarily losing non-impact players. I think the easier explanation is the coaching, drafting and FAs...all things TD is responsible for.

And as I've said before, I'll take a few years of cap jail for a few years of playoff/SB contention every day of the week. I don't want an accountant running the team. I want someone who has the ability to help the team win.

[Dozerdog]

As I stated in the other thread, when TD took over we had a #3 ranked defense. While I give you losing Ted was a big loss...the others?

Northern and T. Smith played for other teams in '00, so they were not part of the #3 defense TD inherited.

TD's moves to "clear cap room" on the defense:

Irvin: Went to Saints in '01. Released '02.
Rogers: Went to SD in '01. Released '02.
B. Smith: Useful but not a major factor at that point.
Holecek: Went to Atlanta for very little money.
Henry: Went to Vikings 01. Released '02. Went to Atlanta. Released '03.

So I still fail to see how a #3 defense falls to #21 when primarily losing non-impact players. I think the easier explanation is the coaching, drafting and FAs...all things TD is responsible for.

And as I've said before, I'll take a few years of cap jail for a few years of playoff/SB contention every day of the week. I don't want an accountant running the team. I want someone who has the ability to help the team win.


How many 2000 defensive starters were on the team in 2001?


Don't forget the loss of Ted Cottrell. He wanted the HC job- when it didn't happen he signed up with the Jets.

Coaching was a big part of it- but roster turnover had a big hand. And the vets that stayed were getting old.

[Dozerdog]

Plus- you say they were "non-impact" players. If we lost them, and the team drops 18 spots- I gotta say there was an impact...LOL

[Mr. Cynical]

Plus- you say they were "non-impact" players. If we lost them, and the team drops 18 spots- I gotta say there was an impact...LOL
Ok smarta**. How many STARTERS ON DEFENSE did TD release in '01? Try to stay focused on one topic at a time. :shakeno:

[Mr. Cynical]

Don't forget the loss of Ted Cottrell. He wanted the HC job- when it didn't happen he signed up with the Jets.

Coaching was a big part of it- but roster turnover had a big hand. And the vets that stayed were getting old.And who is responsible for replacing coaches? Hmmmm...oh yeah, TD.

There is no way you are going to be able to defend TD at this point. Keep trying if you want, but it is a losing battle.

[Dozerdog]

These three were cut by TD- cap hits

DT Ted Washington - Cut - 2/22/01; Signed with Bears 3/19
LB Sam Rogers - Cut - 3/2/01; Signed with Chargers
LB John Holecek - Cut - 7/12/01; Signed with Chargers

This was a final day cut - blame this one on Williams, not TD
DB Henry Jones - Cut - 9/2/01

4 of 11 starters - then you lose Cowart in the first quarter of the first game of the season.


That's half of the defense and all of your linebackers. And a cap overage way to big to consider getting replacements.

[Dozerdog]

And who is responsible for replacing coaches? Hmmmm...oh yeah, TD.

There is no way you are going to be able to defend TD at this point. Keep trying if you want, but it is a losing battle.


I've been consistent with this one- TD's biggest mistake was his first one. G-dub was a bust.

But 95% of the coaches hired in the NFL then go out and assemble their staffs. Sure...on the interview usualy coaches go through who they have in mind to bring in but the GM's usually don't force any assistant coaches on anybody- unless there is some wierd contract situations going on.

[Mr. Cynical]

These three were cut by TD- cap hits

DT Ted Washington - Cut - 2/22/01; Signed with Bears 3/19
LB Sam Rogers - Cut - 3/2/01; Signed with Chargers
LB John Holecek - Cut - 7/12/01; Signed with Chargers

This was a final day cut - blame this one on Williams, not TD
DB Henry Jones - Cut - 9/2/01

4 of 11 starters - then you lose Cowart in the first quarter of the first game of the season.


That's half of the defense and all of your linebackers. And a cap overage way to big to consider getting replacements.I don't blame Williams for any cuts because HIS defense was #3 in '00 so the point about Henry is moot. Besides, he was done anyway (Went to Vikings 01. Released '02. Went to Atlanta. Released '03.)

Losing Cowart to injury had impact, yes, but then a GM is supposed to have depth.

Again, the 3 that you mentioned...Washington, Rogers and Holocek....2 of them are out of football.

So I still fail to see how it went from #3 to #21 because of "cap jail".

[Dozerdog]

I don't blame Williams for any cuts because HIS defense was #3 in '00 so the point about Henry is moot. Besides, he was done anyway (Went to Vikings 01. Released '02. Went to Atlanta. Released '03.)

Losing Cowart to injury had impact, yes, but then a GM is supposed to have depth.

Again, the 3 that you mentioned...Washington, Rogers and Holocek....2 of them are out of football.

So I still fail to see how it went from #3 to #21 because of "cap jail".


All i'm trying to do is answer your question you posed- Why the drop off from one year to the next.

These are the players we had in 2000, these are the players we did not have in 2001. What they are doing today is irrelivant.

The Bills had one of the lowest payrolls- 28th overall- because of dead cap space left by Butler. The NFL would not let us spend more. League rules.

But apparently losing 5 starters and no cap space - regardless what they are doing now- yeah- I see your point. We should still have maintained a top 5 defense.

[Mr. Cynical]

These are the players we had in 2000, these are the players we did not have in 2001. What they are doing today is irrelivant.

But apparently losing 5 starters and no cap space - regardless what they are doing now- yeah- I see your point. We should still have maintained a top 5 defense.
What they did when they left is completely relevant. It shows that we didn't lose players that were all that great. Therefore, when you use the loss of those players as an excuse for dropping from #3 to #21, it doesn't hold any water.

[socalfan]

Dude you talk way to much too yourself.

[hurls]

I've always been a TD supporter, but after watching Drew and this horrible OL week after week, my support is out the window. In the years he's been here, one of those two things should have been fixed, and neither is remotely close.