When is it clear that the system creates the player and not other way around?

[Judge]

Terrell Davis explodes for big yardage and production for the Broncos. He falls to injury, and Mike Anderson, Olandis Gary, and Clinton Portis have been just as sound in the Broncos' backfield.

Kurt Warner emerges out of nowhere, but when injured Marc Bulger outshines him, and Trent Green has done very well in the system as well.

Priest Holmes is good but not great, and then goes to a Vermeil system that made an all-pro Marshall Faulk into a superstar and explodes in production.

Just 3 examples.

Does anyone else think that these kinds of players, lauded as the best in the league, are merely beneficiaries of great systems and not the real superstars people think they are?

[4thAndLong]

Holmes IMO, never really got much of a shot. He was in Balt, where Jamal Lewis emerged...I believe.

What about Bledsoe in Gilbride's passing O?

Cowart in the 3-4.

[Ebenezer]

Any lineman from Nebraska!

[Ebenezer]

Any QB from Florida.

[4thAndLong]

a FB in Norv Turner's system.

[Ebenezer]

Any TB who played at Southern Cal from 1966-1982.

[Typ0]

Any jealous ex running back in Brentwood.

[WG]

Originally posted by 4thAndLong
Holmes IMO, never really got much of a shot. He was in Balt, where Jamal Lewis emerged...I believe.

What about Bledsoe in Gilbride's passing O?

Cowart in the 3-4.

Gotta agree w/ 4th here. Holmes always outperformed his starters in Baltimore and yet they still never gave him the starting nod. Stupid IMO. Along w/ many others as well I suppose. Just like Dilfer whom they stated wasn't good while he put up fine numbers. Gotta question the Raven FO for letting those guys go.

[Judge]

Originally posted by 4thAndLong

What about Bledsoe in Gilbride's passing O?


Bledsoe's got the pedigree and success in bad offenses in New England so that he shouldn't be included in something like this.

Bledsoe and Favre are the best QB's in the league. They'd be good anywhere, and raise the level of the team around them. that's my point w/ Warner- he's just a product of the system in my opinion. Put him on the Bengals, or Bills for that matter, and I doubt he comes anywhere near to approaching the success he had in St. Louis.

[colin]

The system is the final touch, the last thing that can seperate one team from another. What is more important is the one on one match ups and the talent around a player.

Gilbride knows how to make an O, especially the long ball game and to a lesser extent the direct running game, work very well, but the talent on our O is sick.

When Mike comes back I think we are gonna do a whole lot more power running all over people. We could outrush KC in KC if we do it right.

[The_Philster]

There are two ways of telling whether it's the system over the player.
If virtually any player plugged into a spot can do the same thing...that's one example. Denver RBs, for example.
If a player goes elsewhere in free agency but can't play worth squat after playing great at his last stop, that's another example. See Alvin Harper, Bryce Paup...couldn't do the job in a 4-3.

[Judge]

Originally posted by The_Philster
There are two ways of telling whether it's the system over the player.
If virtually any player plugged into a spot can do the same thing...that's one example. Denver RBs, for example.
If a player goes elsewhere in free agency but can't play worth squat after playing great at his last stop, that's another example. See Alvin Harper, Bryce Paup...couldn't do the job in a 4-3.

Excellent points- I agree. That's what I think might be the case with the Rams QB's, too.

[Typ0]

Both the player and the system have to fit. There are running backs that wouldn't be succesfull in Denver. Bryson would not be successful in the Denver system he does not have the up the middle power and speed that system requires. Funny how good FO and coaches put players on the team who fit into the system. Booger in St. Louis fits into the system which is why they hired him and why he is successful. Warner fits into the system. The system does not make Warner what he is. You guys make it sound like Ray Lucas can go to St. Louis and look good. Not. If that was the case there would be a book with the best NFL system and every team would use it.

[ArcticWildMan]

Ray Lucas is being totally misused in Miami. He needs a scheme where he can take advantage of his strengths...his scrambling ability and his arm strength while scrambling.

[Typ0]

I suppose his being misused is why he's turned the ball over a dozen times in three games. He drops the ball on the ground one in twenty plays. Is that because he is not fit to the system?

[ArcticWildMan]

He looked a lot better last night when he was allowed to scramble. He is not a drop back pocket passer. He does not have the field vision required.

[The_Philster]

Originally posted by Typ0
Both the player and the system have to fit. There are running backs that wouldn't be succesfull in Denver. Bryson would not be successful in the Denver system he does not have the up the middle power and speed that system requires. Funny how good FO and coaches put players on the team who fit into the system. Booger in St. Louis fits into the system which is why they hired him and why he is successful. Warner fits into the system. The system does not make Warner what he is. You guys make it sound like Ray Lucas can go to St. Louis and look good. Not. If that was the case there would be a book with the best NFL system and every team would use it.

That's even better than my explanation.....it's all about the chemistry between the players and the scheme.

[Marcos20]

1st the player
2nd the system ..

its obvious... a good player in a bad system is BS ..
a bas player in a good system is BS ...

[TigerJ]

Typo probably has the best "serious" answer, though I think Bryson's downfall in Denver's system would be his lack of field vision rather than a lack of speed and power. I think Bryson and Antowain Smith are similar in that regard. Bryson might thrive in NE.

My quick answer to the question is when it comes two quarterbacks and Steve Spurrier, it's the system.