How long does it take to get good?

[Mr. Cynical]

In the four years TD has been here we have an 18-36 record to show for it with not one winning season or playoff.

Here's a few examples of what *can* happen in a four year span or less if done right:

John Fox took a 1-15 team to the Super Bowl in his second year.
Tony Dungy took a 6-10 team to the AFC Championsip in his second year.
Dick Vermeil took a 6-10 team to the Super Bowl in his third year.
Andy Reid took a 3-13 team to the divisional playoffs in his second year, and the NFC Championship in his third year.
Jim Fassel took a 6-10 team to the Super Bowl in his fourth year.
Jimmy Johnson took a 3-13 team to 11-5 in his third year, and to the Super Bowl in his fourth year.
Mike Shanahan took a 7-9 team to the Super Bowl in his third year.
Bobby Ross took a 4-12 team to the Super Bowl in his third year.
Bill Parcells took a 1-15 team to 9-7 his first year, then to the divisional playoffs in his second year at 12-4.
So it *can* be done if you have the right coach and GM. TD has done nothing to prove he should be here past this season. And since he hired MM, that means he's out too (deservedly or not, a new GM will normally bring his own coach).

[Typ0]

In the four years TD has been here we have an 18-36 record to show for it with not one winning season or playoff.

Here's a few examples of what *can* happen in a four year span or less if done right:

John Fox took a 1-15 team to the Super Bowl in his second year.
Tony Dungy took a 6-10 team to the AFC Championsip in his second year.
Dick Vermeil took a 6-10 team to the Super Bowl in his third year.
Andy Reid took a 3-13 team to the divisional playoffs in his second year, and the NFC Championship in his third year.
Jim Fassel took a 6-10 team to the Super Bowl in his fourth year.
Jimmy Johnson took a 3-13 team to 11-5 in his third year, and to the Super Bowl in his fourth year.
Mike Shanahan took a 7-9 team to the Super Bowl in his third year.
Bobby Ross took a 4-12 team to the Super Bowl in his third year.
Bill Parcells took a 1-15 team to 9-7 his first year, then to the divisional playoffs in his second year at 12-4.
So it *can* be done if you have the right coach and GM. TD has done nothing to prove he should be here past this season. And since he hired MM, that means he's out too (deservedly or not, a new GM will normally bring his own coach).

Such a nicely written post...and such bad grammer in the title...LMAO.

[Mr. Cynical]

Such a nicely written post...and such bad grammer in the title...LMAO.The irony of criticizing someone's grammar when they misspell the actual word is the funny part. :D

[Typ0]

The irony of criticizing someone's grammar when they misspell the actual word is the funny part. :D

Hi, my name is Typ0 and I'm a misspeller.

[lordofgun]

When your name is Typ0, you get a pass.

[Typ0]

When your name is Typ0, you get a pass.

:up:

I think I have to learn how to give rep now...

[Mr. Cynical]

Meanwhile back to the thread.....

This shows that it is not unreasonable to expect things to turn around in 4 years. And I don't mean Super Bowl either. Just playoffs would be enough. TD sucks and has to go.

[Turf]

Nice post Mr C. I cound't agree more. Here we are at the peak of our salary cap cycle and are the worst team in the league. At least when John Butler spent money and mortaged the future we had something to show for it.
TD keeps mortgaging the future with draft choices, and we still have nothing to show for it.
How many years does it take? It's painfully obvious that TD has failed, MAINLY because he has failed to address the offensive line, and his drafting has been very poor.
TD is a lame duck. He's done, as good as gone. He has had total control, more than anyone ever in this organization. He has failed. The timeframe in which he leaves is the only debatable issue.

[hwc]

You forgot Bill Belichick. He took a 5-11 Pats team to a SuperBowl win in his second year. And, another two years later.

But, none of the guys you mentioned have as many buddies in the press or work as hard to grab headlines as Tom Donohoe. For example, he nobody outworked him in convincing the media that he had fleeced the Pats in trading for Drew Bledsoe. Or, pulled a masterful coup in signing Lawyer Milloy to a contract as the highest paid safety in the NFL.

That oughtta count for something!

[TheGhostofJimKelly]

Why can't we just have a little patience in the Tom Donahoe 10-15 year plan. :meh:

[The_Philster]

:jawdrop: And here I thought TD was the GM....those other examples all look like coaches. :scratch:

[chernobylwraiths]

:jawdrop: And here I thought TD was the GM....those other examples all look like coaches. :scratch:

Stop trying to make sense.

[The_Philster]

Stop trying to make sense.
:doh: my bad

[lordofgun]

Stop trying to make sense.
Stop stealing imbondz's lines. :mad:

[chernobylwraiths]

Stop stealing imbondz's lines. :mad:

I don't have any lines. :(

[Ebenezer]

In the four years TD has been here we have an 18-36 record to show for it with not one winning season or playoff.

Here's a few examples of what *can* happen in a four year span or less if done right:

John Fox took a 1-15 team to the Super Bowl in his second year.
Tony Dungy took a 6-10 team to the AFC Championsip in his second year.
Dick Vermeil took a 6-10 team to the Super Bowl in his third year.
Andy Reid took a 3-13 team to the divisional playoffs in his second year, and the NFC Championship in his third year.
Jim Fassel took a 6-10 team to the Super Bowl in his fourth year.
Jimmy Johnson took a 3-13 team to 11-5 in his third year, and to the Super Bowl in his fourth year.
Mike Shanahan took a 7-9 team to the Super Bowl in his third year.
Bobby Ross took a 4-12 team to the Super Bowl in his third year.
Bill Parcells took a 1-15 team to 9-7 his first year, then to the divisional playoffs in his second year at 12-4.
So it *can* be done if you have the right coach and GM. TD has done nothing to prove he should be here past this season. And since he hired MM, that means he's out too (deservedly or not, a new GM will normally bring his own coach).
so none of them did anything in their first year?? guess MM gets a pass this year.

[chernobylwraiths]

Hey, didn't George Seifert win the SB in HIS first year? Barry Switzer did and THEY are both available.

[Mr. Cynical]

:jawdrop: And here I thought TD was the GM....those other examples all look like coaches. :scratch:Who hires the coach? :scratch:
Who drafts the players? :scratch:
Who is ultimately responsible for the team's success/failure? :scratch:

[The_Philster]

keep dodging the subject...

[Mr. Cynical]

keep your head in the sand...

[The_Philster]

:rolleyes: now with the lies

[Mr. Cynical]

You said "keep dodging the subject". Dodging what subject? I have explained everything. You on the other hand continue defending TD. Is that a lie? Are you not defending him?

[The_Philster]

TD is a GM...you listed coaches. You wanna bash him based on what other GMs have done, fine. If you're gonna bash him based on what coaches have done, then you're talking about two completely different things. I can't break it down any simpler :idunno:

[Mr. Cynical]

Answer this one simple question: who hires the coach?

[The_Philster]

The GM..still doesn't mean he IS the coach.:rolleyes:

Am I just not speaking English here? :idunno:

[Mr. Cynical]

Ok, so now that we've established the GM is the one who hires the coach, who drafts/hires the players?

[The_Philster]

moyen de doesn't il EST l'entraîneur
medio de doesn't él ES el coche
середина doesn't он БУДЕТ каретой
meio de doesn't É o ônibus
doesn't は彼がコーチであることを意味する
media di doesn't È la vettura
doesn't σημαίνουν ότι ΕΊΝΑΙ το λεωφορείο
doesn't Mittel IST er der Trainer
그가 차 이다 것 을doesn't은 의미한다

I really hope those are enough languages to explain it :idunno: :snicker:

[Mr. Cynical]

keep dodging the subject....

[The_Philster]

keep dodging the subject....
:rofl: Why not? works for you :;

[Mr. Cynical]

:rofl: Why not? works for you :;
Well, it must work for you since you used the same line. :D

If you don't want to admit that TD has not done a good job as a GM that's your choice. Just don't play dumb with the "he isn't the coach" line. You know as well as I do that the GM's job is to hire the right coach and give him the right players. If the GM picks a bad coach or bad players, then what you get is 18-36 over 4 years. The examples I listed show what can happen when the GM picks the right coach and has the right players. TD is out of excuses and needs to go.

[The_Philster]

I don't think you'll find anyone argue against you saying that his first coaching hire sucked. Face it, you just want to inspire arguments with your posts

[Mr. Cynical]

Yet he hired another rookie HC who has us at 1-5.

And we still don't have an oline.

And we still are starting a statue for a QB who we are paying millions.

Yet you sit there and want to say you are pleased with the results of this team? The GM is ultimately responsible for the team's successes and failures. At 18-36, this team is a miserable failure. Period.

[chernobylwraiths]

If you want to make an arguement, pick a bunch of GMs of unsuccessful teams and show how quickly they were fired. You can't pick a bunch of successful coaches and say how good the GMs were. Until then, your arguement looks silly. If you think that Donahoe hasn't brought in enough talent then that is your opinion. I think Donhoe has brought in good talent. Unfortunately, he moves on the offensive line haven't really panned out.

[Iehoshua]

Philster is obviously content with a losing team. He stops at nothing to defend the management, qb and every other problem area. Maybe he's too busy fantasizing about the Jills to worry about the actual team.

The rest of us are not content with losing and therefore look at the obvious bad areas. End of discussion.

[Mr. Cynical]

If you want to make an arguement, pick a bunch of GMs of unsuccessful teams and show how quickly they were fired. You can't pick a bunch of successful coaches and say how good the GMs were. Until then, your arguement looks silly. If you think that Donahoe hasn't brought in enough talent then that is your opinion. I think Donhoe has brought in good talent. Unfortunately, he moves on the offensive line haven't really panned out.What looks silly is our team at 18-36. The bottom line is results on the field and Tom Donohoe's record for the last six seasons is:

'98-'99 Pittsburgh: 13-19
'01-'04 Buffalo: 18-36 and counting...

[Jersey1031]

san diego is winning games out of no where. they were supposed to have another dead-end season...

[Ebenezer]

Well, it must work for you since you used the same line. :D

If you don't want to admit that TD has not done a good job as a GM that's your choice. Just don't play dumb with the "he isn't the coach" line. You know as well as I do that the GM's job is to hire the right coach and give him the right players. If the GM picks a bad coach or bad players, then what you get is 18-36 over 4 years. The examples I listed show what can happen when the GM picks the right coach and has the right players. TD is out of excuses and needs to go.
MC, the point phil is trying to make is that you are using coaching examples to bring heat upon TD (which may be warranted)...use GM examples...

[Ebenezer]

What looks silly is our team at 18-36. The bottom line is results on the field and Tom Donohoe's record for the last six seasons is:

'98-'99 Pittsburgh: 13-19
'01-'04 Buffalo: 18-36 and counting...
how about adding in the successful years in Pitts....

[FTG]

Philster is obviously content with a losing team. .

:bf1: could'nt have said it any better

[Ebenezer]

:bf1: could'nt have said it any better
just remember, you fire TD and you better have a good alternative...remember how good TD looked 4 years ago.

[Mr. Cynical]

how about adding in the successful years in Pitts....
Because what he did 7-10 years ago is largely irrelevant at this point. When you are sliding, you start from the beginning of the slide, which was the start of the '98 season. 6 non-winning seasons in a row is enough data to tell you he sucks.

[Mr. Cynical]

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=3 width="100%"><TBODY><TR><TD class=altRow1 align=right colSpan=3>
C Feinberg (New York, NY): You have alluded to the initial salary cap problems as an explanation for why the team has struggled at times. But other teams, like Baltimore and Jacksonville, are performing much better under similar conditions. That being said, how much responsibility for the team's persistent struggles do you shoulder? Specifically, where can you improve your own performance?

</TD></TR><TR><TD class=altRow2 align=right colSpan=3>
TD: I shoulder all the responsibility for the team and for the organization. Our cap problems are behind us and that's where we should leave them. We did come into a situation that was probably the worst salary cap situation in the League. We've worked through that and we've improved our roster each year. We prefer to look ahead as compared to looking backward.
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

http://www.buffalobills.com/news/news.jsp?news_id=2852

Glad to hear you know you're responsible for the team's successes and failures. Since we have been a failure for 4 years, do the right thing and resign.

[Crisis]

Because what he did 7-10 years ago is largely irrelevant at this point. When you are sliding, you start from the beginning of the slide, which was the start of the '98 season. 6 non-winning seasons in a row is enough data to tell you he sucks.

Yet alot of the info in your first post dates back 7-10 years.

[Jan Reimers]

I actually agree with Mr. Cynical. TD is an arrogant jerk with a huge ego who hasn't had any success in years. He's a "big play" GM who loves to make the grand, controversial free agent signing or draft pick - the Bledsoe, Milloy, M. Williams, McGahee, et. al. moves - to show everyone what a genius he is.

But in his never-ending quest for glory, he ignores all of the basic things - like a functioning O line - that make other teams good.

He has turned me from a 44 year Bills fanatic into someone that can't stand to even watch this pathetic bunch play.

[Mr. Cynical]

Yet alot of the info in your first post dates back 7-10 years.
Completely irrelevant to the topic of TD's performance. Apples and oranges comparison.

[Mr. Cynical]

Here's some interesting information from a Steeler's fan site. Yes, it is biased like any other fan site will be, but there are still alot of good points. One of which I wonder about...did TD even hire Cowher?


First of all, Cowher and Donohoe both came in in '92. Anybody wanna explain to me exactly what Donahoe did to turn that mediocre team into a contender during that first year? Zip. Nadda. It was Cowher who picked up the pieces of the '80s and coached 'em into one of the winningest teams of the '90s. Granted, Donahoe pulled off the only good draft of his tenure in '92, but none of those players were major contibutors during that surprising turnaround year. Noll and his staff deserve a much bigger pat on the back than Donahoe for already having an outstanding core of players in place (Rod Woodson, Greg Lloyd, Carnell Lake, Hardy Nickerson, Dermontti Dawson, Barry Foster, John Jackson, Eric Green, Ernie Mills, Neil O'Donnell, Gary Anderson, et al).

Critics seem quite content to knock Cowher's performance over the last two seasons... justifiably so. But the plain facts point to the glaring overall lack of talent as the source of the Steelers demise. So why is it that Tom Donahoe, who had FAR more control over personel decisions than Cowher, has somehow not only remained unmolested by the Pittsburgh press, but is almost being hailed as a savior? I mean, the guy is not exactly Art Rooney, Sr., folks...

I have yet to hear even ONE player say he left because of Cowher. The players LOVE Cowher. Yet... Cowher is being cast as the one with the "ego." Cowher is the one the local writers are ripping for "chasing away" Dick LeBeau and Bobby April.

Interesting.

What about Donahoe's public ripping of Woodson, needlessly costing the team it's best player of the last 15 years (and an important team leader)? Woodson (a Pro-Bowler yet again in '99) expressed interest in returning to Pittsburgh before the '98 season, and Donahoe's response was, "We're not the Salvation Army." So he chased Woodson off not once, but twice, and now Rod is a Pro-Bowler for the AFC Central rival Ravens. Hey, great move, Tom. Just one example of a wealth of horrible free-agent moves. Yet, Tom's a God to those in the media. Does ANYONE think we've EVER done well in free agency? And while we're at it, where are the bogus rumors of Donahoe's affair with Kordell's sister? After all, baseless innuendo and insults seem to be the modus operandi of the Pittsburgh press when it comes to Cowher, but the catcalls are mysteriously absent when it comes to Donahoe.

Why is that? You figure it out.

Fact: Historically, Cowher's teams have overachieved, and I'll tell you one thing about Bill Cowher that is irrefutable: Give him a little bit of talent and he WILL win football games. In the span of 2 short years, the Steelers have gone from being one of the most talented, winningest teams in the league to a veritable laughing stock. Why? I've said it before, I'll say it again: An avalanche of free agent losses & draft blunders. The blame for Pittsburgh's downfall, folks, lays squarely on the shoulders of Tommy "Two-Face" Donahoe, not Bill Cowher, who remains one of the absolute best coaches in the league.

The Pittsburgh Media, on the other hand, who seems to be marching in a locked goose-step on this issue, is a disgrace to their profession. The Press may be aligned against Cowher, but the FANS are behind him all the way.

[The_Philster]

Yet you sit there and want to say you are pleased with the results of this team? You have a link ?


could'nt have said it any better :rolleyes:
MC, the point phil is trying to make is that you are using coaching examples to bring heat upon TD (which may be warranted)...use GM examples... Thanks, Eb:up:

[Mr. Cynical]

MC, the point phil is trying to make is that you are using coaching examples to bring heat upon TD (which may be warranted)...use GM examples...I know what he is trying to say, but as usual he is dodging the issue. The gm hires the coach and is therefore responsible for his performance. Whether or not the gm makes the actual play calls, etc. is irrelevant.

Let me ask you this....how do you judge a GM? Everyone I know judges him based on the results of the team on the field. If you have different critieria that's fine, but even TD admitted above that he "shoulders all the responsibility for the team and for the organization." So if TD himself admits it, how can you or anyone defend him?

[The_Philster]

I'm not dodging any issue nor have I seen anyone defend him

[Mr. Cynical]

I'm not dodging any issue nor have I seen anyone defend himThen tell me what you think of TD's performance. Under what circumstances would *you* fire him?

[The_Philster]

Then tell me what you think of TD's performance. Under what circumstances would *you* fire him?
I see a lot of talent on paper on this roster but we have some notable weaknesses
QB-Drew has fallen hard...I have little faith anymore that he can reclaim his game
Matthews offers little
Losman is a project

OL-one good game does not a season make
I like Price, Villiarial and, so far, Tucker. Smith seems to be an improvement over Pucillo but a downgrade from Ruben, Mike Williams seems to be improving but at what rate? is it an acceptable one? Jennings took over the penalty king title from Ruben years ago and is rarely healthy. A high ankle sprain is hard to recover from and he won't be back next year. Teague has never impressed me. We need upgrades at T and depth at the very least at the C and G spots. Pucillo should've been cut this offseason.
WR-why can't these guys catch the ball? and I don't think it's too early to start declaring Josh Reed a bust as far as where he was drafted. a 2nd round pick and seems to have 5th rd production
DE-Schobel is the only one that impresses me...neither Denney nor Kelsay have pulled away to grab the starting spot all to themselves and neither one is showing consistency as far as keeping up the pressure
LB--why, oh why did we let DaShon Polk escape via free agency? He was excellent depth...could play anywhere and was a leader on special teams
S-we have Lawyer and who else that's solid starting material?
K-we've had problems here since TD took over and while Lindell isn't as bad as Arians was, he certainly wasn't worth a 4-year deal.

We need to start getting some serious production out of the players soon or TD needs to go

[Ebenezer]

Because what he did 7-10 years ago is largely irrelevant at this point. When you are sliding, you start from the beginning of the slide, which was the start of the '98 season. 6 non-winning seasons in a row is enough data to tell you he sucks.
you never bought an underperforming stock with the hope that it does well?? :snicker:

[Mr. Cynical]

you never bought an underperforming stock with the hope that it does well?? :snicker:
Unfortunately I have....and have lost money 99.99% of the time. :sigh:

[Ebenezer]

Unfortunately I have....and have lost money 99.99% of the time. :sigh:
get a new stock broker...

[ScottLawrence]

Randy Muller for GM of the Buffalo Bills.

He won executive of the year in 2000 with the Saints.
Built a great core of players in New Orleans.
Whats the two greatest assets of the New Orleans Saints? Offensive line and Defensive line.

I know, they underachieve every year but, I put that on Haslett.

He is someone I would consider if I was RW.

[Mr. Cynical]

bump