Bills keeping TD?

[dannyek71]

Just read a report that the Bills are going to look to give TD an extension this offseason.

I know we've been doing alot better lately, but I sure hope that if TD does get an extension that it is a very short one. If we dont go to the playoffs this year or next, I think it goes without saying that TD ought to get the boot.

[Jayhawk]

:shocked:

[Jan Reimers]

I have not been a big fan of TD, and it has taken him too long to get us competitive again, but it looks like a number of his moves are starting to pay dividends.

I think we keep him at this point, because he - and we - should see some really good football over the next few years.

[SABURZFAN]

if we're going to keep donahoe,he better address the OL. :mad:

[juice]

The emergence of Evans and the evolution of Willis pretty much squashes any talk of TD being run out of Buffalo.. Not to mention the top 3 defensive unit that is full of TD aquisitions.

[juice]

if we're going to keep donahoe,he better address the OL. :mad:If he had done that last year, like he said he would, this team would be in the midst of a Playoff Run.. Instead of being on the outside looking in.

[Jan Reimers]

if we're going to keep donahoe,he better address the OL. :mad:
I think he will, but we're certainly better there due to McNally's coaching. I see a couple of additions through the draft and/or free agency, though.

[OpIv37]

Right now, TD looks like a genius. Someone said in another thread that we have 18 touchdowns from first year players. I think TD bet the farm on Evans, McGahee and Losman- so far, 2 of the 3 have been excellent and the third is yet to be determined. Milloy, Spikes, Vincent, Fletcher and Adams have been great FA acquisitions (except for Vincent's injury). Mike Williams has come around, several no-name players have contributed (Greer, F. Smith, Baker), and Mularkey and his staff are improving every week.

About two months ago, there were several threads criticizing TD's late-round draft picks/undrafted FA signings. I agreed at the time, but who could say that now after the Bills' latest surge? TD certainly has his flaws and I hope they only give him a short contract because this team still has to prove itself in the playoffs. But right now, everything's clicking, and from TD's standpoint, it's the perfect time to get the organization to give him some $.

[Kenny]

I think he will, but we're certainly better there due to McNally's coaching. I see a couple of additions through the draft and/or free agency, though.
I really dont think our OL is a liability anymore... I just dont get why fans keep on saying that our OL sucks?

Of course we could use some depth (draft picks), and if JJ leaves, I definately see a FA pickup... but in the whole, I actually like our OL.

[SABURZFAN]

I think he will, but we're certainly better there due to McNally's coaching. I see a couple of additions through the draft and/or free agency, though.


i hope you're right.the OL has shown improvement over the last month and a half but i'm still going to be critical about it.i've been harping on it for the last 3-4 years and i won't quit until i see results. :biggrin:

[Iehoshua]

i hope you're right.the OL has shown improvement over the last month and a half but i'm still going to be critical about it.i've been harping on it for the last 3-4 years and i won't quit until i see results. :biggrin:

What do you mean? We're on a 4-game winning streak! That should cancel out everything from the last 3-4 years!
:crazy:

[Mahdi]

The reason I still think we need to improve at O-line is that we still have trouble running between the tackles. Willis is only averaging 3.8 yards per carry because too many times he's getting stuffed at the line. With a better O-line he's be averaging closer to 5.

[Iehoshua]

Link to story from front page...
http://www.rochesterdandc.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20041214/SPORTS03/412140315/1007/SPORTS

Donahoe's job secure: Bills are on a roll, and Wilson is happy with GM

The Buffalo Bills' two-month winning surge hasn't just landed the team in the thick of the NFL playoff chase.

It has also landed president and general manager Tom Donahoe a sterling vote of confidence from owner Ralph Wilson and laid the foundation for a contract extension.

After Sunday's record-setting 37-7 victory over the Cleveland Browns, Wilson said Donahoe can remain his top administrator indefinitely.

"He can be here as long as he wants. He's done a good job. I'm happy," Wilson said. "We're friends. He had a very tough job to do coming in here."

[Mr. Cynical]

What do you mean? We're on a 4-game winning streak! That should cancel out everything from the last 3-4 years!
:crazy:
:roflmao:

Some people have very short term memory.

[Mr. Cynical]

If we dont go to the playoffs this year or next, I think it goes without saying that TD ought to get the boot.
Agreed.

[dannyek71]

To everyone think TD is a god for what he has done lately.....


Remember how long ago it was when we thought what a genius GW was for turning a 3-13 team to 8-8, and then starting off the season in impressive fashion 2-0.

How screwed would we have been if we had signed a contract extension with GW then?

[The_Philster]

This is a good move. He only has one year left on his deal and the last lame duck GM seemed to intentionally screw up the cap :cynic:

[bills_phan]

What a bunch of grumpy idiots! You are now seeing TD's hard work paying off. All of you back-seat GM's don't know what the hell you're talking about! Ralph Wilson's been around football for a little while now and know's what it takes to run a successful franchise better than any of you clowns. Here's Ralph's quote:

"He can be here as long as he wants. He's done a good job. I'm happy."

I smell extension!

Eat it! :cry:

[Ebenezer]

What a bunch of grumpy idiots! You are now seeing TD's hard work paying off. All of you back-seat GM's don't know what the hell you're talking about! Ralph Wilson's been around football for a little while now and know's what it takes to run a successful franchise better than any of you clowns. Here's Ralph's quote:

"He can be here as long as he wants. He's done a good job. I'm happy."

I smell extension!

Eat it! :cry:
the point is you have to look inside the organization...the off-field stuff is in excellent shape...as a President TD has done a great job...the cap is in excellent shape...as a Capologist TD has done a great job...the team is coming around...as a GM TD has donw an average job...his major fault was hiring GW, who by the sounds of it, sold him pretty well. Like that has never happened in business.

You also have to look at what is going on behind the scenes...the team is probably very ready for Free Agency and the 2005 draft...already panning out details of contracts on current guys and other free agents...working out salcap scenarios into 2006...you can't necessarily break that momentum in the middle. Football guys don't live in a vaccuum - ok, regular season over get ready for playoffs, ok, playoffs over get read for free agency...TD has probably already figured out the compensation we get for Jennings and what he can do with that in 2006.

[Iehoshua]

If our upturn continues this season, and I believe it will, then I agree with keeping him. If, however, 2005 is another near-miss type season, then it will be clear to me he is incapable of getting the team over the hump and into the postseason. Granted all the cap issues, personnel issues turned out in a positive manner, if he can't build a winner, he shouldn't keep the job.

[bills_phan]

the point is you have to look inside the organization...the off-field stuff is in excellent shape...as a President TD has done a great job...the cap is in excellent shape...as a Capologist TD has done a great job...the team is coming around...as a GM TD has donw an average job...his major fault was hiring GW, who by the sounds of it, sold him pretty well. Like that has never happened in business.

You also have to look at what is going on behind the scenes...the team is probably very ready for Free Agency and the 2005 draft...already panning out details of contracts on current guys and other free agents...working out salcap scenarios into 2006...you can't necessarily break that momentum in the middle. Football guys don't live in a vaccuum - ok, regular season over get ready for playoffs, ok, playoffs over get read for free agency...TD has probably already figured out the compensation we get for Jennings and what he can do with that in 2006.
I agree with the GW hire, but to say he's been average as a GM is not giving the man enough credit IMHO. He's hit on many value draft picks as well as the high round picks and has been nearly flawless in free agency. Even Bledsoe's playing well now, though there are those who will refuse to admit it. The thing that makes him a great GM are the picks that nobody else thought were great at the time: McGahee, McGee, Henry, Jennings, Clements, Schobel, Evans to some extent, Edwards, etc... Not to mention free agents like Spikes, Fletcher, Milloy, Vincent, Villarrial, and MOORMAN...how is this guy not a great GM? This is his team and it's winning big week after week. BTW, his second coaching hire is panning out pretty well so far as well! TD deserves an extension and probably even a raise.

[dannyek71]

How has TD done a great job?

Outside of Arizona, what NFL teams have not been to the playoffs in 5 years? I know there are probably more outside of Ariz, but the VAST majority of NFL teams have been to the playoffs since Buffalo was last there and TD took over.

So even the law of probablilty states that we should have been to the big dance by now.

At best TD is average.....

[Dozerdog]

Buffalo is in one of the worst markets when it comes to generating revenue. TD has to operate a franchise with no season ticket base waiting lists, has the lowest price tickets in the league, has one of the lowest priced corporate suite packages in the league, and is in the bottom 25% when it comes to outside income (naming rights, concessions, apparrel)

It would be very easy to make a crapload of cash by making a move to Los Angeles. It takes a skilled hand to operate a franchise in such a small market and keep it viable here. If Cleveland and Baltimore, two of the biggest suporting fan bases in the league can lose their teams- it can happen here. You MUST create an economic enviroment that allows you to keep the team here and win. Buffalo is beginning to win. This isn't a franchise with a losing tradition like the Cards or Bengals. It's been a dry spell, but nothing horrific- like a decade or two of failure.

Burdened with all that, he managed to turn the worst cap situation around in the league in 2001 into a very stable , long term solution. He does not mortgage the franchise with bad contracts that have to be dumped and eaten (Like Rob Johnson's, Mark Brunnel in Washington, Jeff Garcia in Cleveland). He doesn't manage by fan panic- like the Dolphins- and make stupid trade after stupid trade. Donahoe has assembled a very talented roster, and on his second attempt has rectified the coaching issue.

I'll trade our short term OL problems for long term franchise security any day. Who here was ready to give Damien Woody a $24 million contract? WTF has that guy done this year for Detroit? Should we have matched Minnesota's contract for Winfield? Does dealing next year's #1 in what looks like a QB average draft look better now that we have JP?

The OL can be fixed. It's gone a long way in improvements in just a half a season. Wait until more tweaking can be done. You can't "fix" losing a franchise. Toronto will get an NFL team before Buffalo gets one back.

[Dozerdog]

How has TD done a great job?

Outside of Arizona, what NFL teams have not been to the playoffs in 5 years? I know there are probably more outside of Ariz, but the VAST majority of NFL teams have been to the playoffs since Buffalo was last there and TD took over.

So even the law of probablilty states that we should have been to the big dance by now.

At best TD is average.....

At least let us get the facts out there . Teams without a playoff apperance since TD has been with the Bills (2001)

Bengals last playoff appearance was 1990
San Diego 1995
Arizona 1998
Jax 1999
Redskins 1999
Bills 1999
Vikes 2000
New Orleans 2000

Add to the list teamds like the Dolphins, 49ers, Giants, Bears, & Cleveland that have completely tanked after having a single playoff apperance since TD got here.

[Forward_Lateral]

Fletcher
Posey
Spikes
Milloy
Kelsay
Schoebel
McGee
Vincent
McGahee
Evans
Cambell
Bledsoe
Shelton
Villarial

Just a few guys Donahoe has brought in.

In retrospect:

Peerless Price
Marcellus Wiley
Sam Cowart
Antowain Winfield
Rueben Brown

Just a few that he didn't over pay for.

[dannyek71]

At least let us get the facts out there . Teams without a playoff apperance since TD has been with the Bills (2001)

Bengals last playoff appearance was 1990
San Diego 1995
Arizona 1998
Jax 1999
Redskins 1999
Bills 1999
Vikes 2000
New Orleans 2000

Add to the list teamds like the Dolphins, 49ers, Giants, Bears, & Cleveland that have completely tanked after having a single playoff apperance since TD got here.
I stand corrected on the number of teams that didnt make it to the playoffs Dozer.

I believe TD has done a great job in keeping the Bills financially prosperous. There is no arguing that. However, I just feel that TD should not be given an extension past the 2005 season until the Bills make at least one playoff appearance. TD is by no means the worst GM in the league, but is by far not the best. I feel it would be best to let TD prove himself by gaining us at least one playoff game before giving him an extension.

[The_Philster]

you'd prefer he be a lame duck like Butler was? :idunno: I fail to see the intelligence behind that move considering how Butler screwed us over before leaving

[cordog]

If our upturn continues this season, and I believe it will, then I agree with keeping him. If, however, 2005 is another near-miss type season, then it will be clear to me he is incapable of getting the team over the hump and into the postseason. Granted all the cap issues, personnel issues turned out in a positive manner, if he can't build a winner, he shouldn't keep the job.


He cant get a team in the postseason? If the refs dont have their heads up their asses in the raiders game and Clements knocks the ball down. This team is 9-4 and in the middle of the hunt.

Lets not forget he built the steelers that went to the AFC championship 3 times and the the SB once.

[Mr. Cynical]

At least let us get the facts out there . Teams without a playoff apperance since TD has been with the Bills (2001)

Bengals last playoff appearance was 1990
San Diego 1995
Arizona 1998
Jax 1999
Redskins 1999
Bills 1999
Vikes 2000
New Orleans 2000

Add to the list teamds like the Dolphins, 49ers, Giants, Bears, & Cleveland that have completely tanked after having a single playoff apperance since TD got here.
So danny was right. You listed 7 (8 including the Bills) teams out of 32 that have not made the playoffs since TD got here. Assuming you're correct, that means 24 teams did make it. That's a majority.

We have gone back and forth ad naseum about being a good accountant vs. a good GM. The thing I find funny is that you posted "all that matters is wins" in the other thread. At 24-37, there have been more losses than wins. If we miss the playoffs next year, that's 5 years. Are you still going to support TD or are you going to stand by your "just wins" comment and say he needs to go?

[Forward_Lateral]

What really pisses me off is everyone expected TD to come here and make chicken salad out of chicken ****. The fact is, the team was in complete shambles, and he did what he had to do. Now, we have one of, if not the best young nucleus in the NFL, a top Defense, a great young RB and WR's, awesome special teams, but everyone wants to point to his losing record as a GM. Now that the team seems to be almost where TD had planned it to be when he first came here, they want him fired. Some fans have no patience whatsoever, I'd hate to see what would happen if they got sick of their wives after 3 years. Some of them would've been married 10 times by now.

[helmetguy]

Removed by personal discretion.

[Dozerdog]

So danny was right. You listed 7 (8 including the Bills) teams out of 32 that have not made the playoffs since TD got here. Assuming you're correct, that means 24 teams did make it. That's a majority.

We have gone back and forth ad naseum about being a good accountant vs. a good GM. The thing I find funny is that you posted "all that matters is wins" in the other thread. At 24-37, there have been more losses than wins. If we miss the playoffs next year, that's 5 years. Are you still going to support TD or are you going to stand by your "just wins" comment and say he needs to go?

How many of the 24 started out at 25 million over the cap?

And another quarter of the league that did risk the cap for a single playoff appearance is now paying for it dearly.

But please, by all means, we are better off dumping TD and getting Butch Davis- he's available and look what he did in Cleveland- he went to the playoffs!

I'd rather be in our shoes than theirs.

[Mr. Cynical]

Blaming all the W/L record on TD is like blaming your CEO because you served me a bad burger.
Enron.

Tyco.

Nuff said.

[Dozerdog]

I feel another 7 page worthless garbage thread coming

[Mr. Cynical]

How many of the 24 started out at 25 million over the cap?

And another quarter of the league that did risk the cap for a single playoff appearance is now paying for it dearly.

But please, by all means, we are better off dumping TD and getting Butch Davis- he's available and look what he did in Cleveland- he went to the playoffs!

I'd rather be in our shoes than theirs.
Funny, you accuse me of using preferential stats to spin my view and you are doing it right now. Sure, Davis sucks. How about Andy Reid? Yeah, the Eagles are in terrible shape since he took over in '01.

You also keep bringing up the cap situation. Newsflash - that was 3 years ago. If we don't make the playoffs...again...it will have been 4 years. And to the point of the thread, if we don't next year, it will be 5. Just how long do you intend to use the "cap excuse" for him? 10 years? 20?

Remember, you said plainly "just wins".

[helmetguy]

I feel another 7 page worthless garbage thread coming
Grab your boots and roll up your pants legs!

[Mr. Cynical]

I feel another 7 page worthless garbage thread coming
Only if you want to make it that way. If you do, don't reply and we'll agree to disagree. I have no desire to repeat another banging my head against the wall thread any more than you do.

[helmetguy]

Enron.

Tyco.

Nuff said.
Since you brought it up (feigning surprise here) are you even suggesting those frauds are even remotely similar to what TD has done with the Bills? If so, I hope you apologize to Dozer for not "being that clueless."

[Canadian'eh!]

Only if you want to make it that way. If you do, don't reply and we'll agree to disagree. I have no desire to repeat another banging my head against the wall thread any more than you do.


But of course he willl because he's NEVER wrong and to disagree would be a personal attack.

[Mr. Cynical]

Since you brought it up (feigning surprise here) are you even suggesting those frauds are even remotely similar to what TD has done with the Bills? If so, I hope you apologize to Dozer for not "being that clueless."
You brought up the sarcastic BS about bad burgers. I guess I could have shown more maturity and simply ignored it, but I'm only human. And I'll apologize as soon as you do. You've fired off countless BS remarks and I've yet to see one apology. Practice what you preach or don't preach at all.

Final word on the role of a GM from me: he is ultimately responsible for the team's success and failures. The line begins and ends with him. If the team continues to fail over time, you start at the top and fire the GM. Simple, immutable fact that most people would agree with, and that most teams follow.

[helmetguy]

But of course he willl because he's NEVER wrong and to disagree would be a personal attack.
Here, Canadian. I borrowed this from cordog.

Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Sage advice, eh?

[Mr. Cynical]

Here, Canadian. I borrowed this from cordog.

Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Sage advice, eh?:shakeno:

[helmetguy]

If you would have noticed, I withdrew the comment. But, since you continue to be condescending to everyone who thoughtfully and logically counters any of your points, don't hold your breath waiting for an apology.

[Canadian'eh!]

Buffalo is in one of the worst markets when it comes to generating revenue. TD has to operate a franchise with no season ticket base waiting lists, has the lowest price tickets in the league, has one of the lowest priced corporate suite packages in the league, and is in the bottom 25% when it comes to outside income (naming rights, concessions, apparrel)

It would be very easy to make a crapload of cash by making a move to Los Angeles. It takes a skilled hand to operate a franchise in such a small market and keep it viable here. If Cleveland and Baltimore, two of the biggest suporting fan bases in the league can lose their teams- it can happen here. You MUST create an economic enviroment that allows you to keep the team here and win. Buffalo is beginning to win. This isn't a franchise with a losing tradition like the Cards or Bengals. It's been a dry spell, but nothing horrific- like a decade or two of failure.

Burdened with all that, he managed to turn the worst cap situation around in the league in 2001 into a very stable , long term solution. He does not mortgage the franchise with bad contracts that have to be dumped and eaten (Like Rob Johnson's, Mark Brunnel in Washington, Jeff Garcia in Cleveland). He doesn't manage by fan panic- like the Dolphins- and make stupid trade after stupid trade. Donahoe has assembled a very talented roster, and on his second attempt has rectified the coaching issue.

I'll trade our short term OL problems for long term franchise security any day. Who here was ready to give Damien Woody a $24 million contract? WTF has that guy done this year for Detroit? Should we have matched Minnesota's contract for Winfield? Does dealing next year's #1 in what looks like a QB average draft look better now that we have JP?

The OL can be fixed. It's gone a long way in improvements in just a half a season. Wait until more tweaking can be done. You can't "fix" losing a franchise. Toronto will get an NFL team before Buffalo gets one back.

Somoene needed to quote this post because it's top shelf. I couldn't agree more. I also pray that Toronto NEVER EVER gets an NFL franchise. I can't bring myself to cheer for any team from TO, and i never will. If they were to get one, i would have a new least favourite team. (If they Bills were to move there i would probably take a coronary and die.)

Back on the actual topic. Donahoe has done a good job despite what the impatient fans might want to beleive. They seem to think that building a winning franchise is jsut a walk in the park. Knee-jerk reactions to every possible problems always pay off long term of course.

Donahoe has gone to work on this franchise to fix each problem as it has come up and we are definately headed in the right direction.

First it was the Cap situation which involved many difficult sacrifices. Moving onto fixing the offence that seemed easier to fix by bringing in a QB (like him or not) and drafting a few players. Unfortunately, there was not enough money left to help the defense. So the best he could do was bring in a defensive coord as our new HC who had run top D's for years and earned his shot. It takes 3 years to find out if this is a good move or not and sadly, it wasn't. This is the onyl major mistake i think TD made, but he has done a much better job this time IMO, andlearned from that mistake. he then went to work fixing the Defense which is now one fo the most dominant in the game.

He Is currently and very successfully in my eyes working on fixing the offense (mostly through coaching) and also sustaining it with pickups like Losman, Evans and McGahee.

All of a sudden we are back to being a good team. too abd it took 4-5 games for theplayers to adjust tot he new coaching or it would have worked already.

You can believe that this offseason will see a few more shrewd moves when ti comes to Henry and the draft and any remianing OL questions will get answered, though i think the biggest fix to the oline (McNally) has already been made.

I also think he will andle the Qb situation as it should be. Drew WILL return to camp as the starter, but there will be no proclimations of who is the starter untilt he job is won or lost. If Losman is better he should start, if Drew is better he should. Whatever will give us the best chance to win will be the decision and the other will either get more time to learn or be a solid backup to help teach the new starter. And i don't think it will be a problem for either player thought it will mean another great year of these debates.

The playoffs will come though. some people just need to look at the whole situation instead of focussing one playoffs yes or no.

I would love to know what the "TD haters" (for lack of a better term), would like to do different right now that TD isn't doing? don' say i would not have hire GW. taht's over and done so it's not an excuse for firing TD, unless you think MM needs to go to.

[Canadian'eh!]

Here, Canadian. I borrowed this from cordog.

Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Sage advice, eh?



IT's fun when i get quoted because since i'm on his iggy list, i never know which comments he'll get to read. it's a little game i play here.

[Mr. Cynical]

If you would have noticed, I withdrew the comment. But, since you continue to be condescending to everyone who thoughtfully and logically counters any of your points, don't hold your breath waiting for an apology.
You mean like this one?


Grab your boots and roll up your pants legs!
You fired the first shot and I replied with 2 examples, without firing back. Then you removed that shot. I reply to Dozer and then you fired another shot (listed above). How am I the one who is being condescending when you are the one who continues to fire first?

[Iehoshua]

Seems some of you are taking it as a personal attack that Cyn has opposite views than you, and retaliating by your own personal attacks. Just debate the topics and keep the feelings out of it. No need to call someone an idiot if they have a different viewpoint or if they won't conform to your way of thinking. The fact remains, we have not won anything with Donahoe as GM. Until we do, the door is open to criticism. Personally, I love the majority of his personnel choices (McGahee, Losman, Evans, Clements, Milloy, Spikes to name a few) but if it doesn't equal playoffs, it's failure.

[Canadian'eh!]

Seems some of you are taking it as a personal attack that Cyn has opposite views than you, and retaliating by your own personal attacks. Just debate the topics and keep the feelings out of it. No need to call someone an idiot if they have a different viewpoint or if they won't conform to your way of thinking. The fact remains, we have not won anything with Donahoe as GM. Until we do, the door is open to criticism. Personally, I love the majority of his personnel choices (McGahee, Losman, Evans, Clements, Milloy, Spikes to name a few) but if it doesn't equal playoffs, it's failure.



Poor picked on Cyn.... why must everyone always pick on him? what a bunch of bullies they are. All he does is come here to profess his undying love of Drew and TD and he gets lynched for it? What an unfair world. :cry:

[Iehoshua]

Poor picked on Cyn.... why must everyone always pick on him? what a bunch of bullies they are. All he does is come here to profess his undying love of Drew and TD and he gets lynched for it? What an unfair world. :cry:

Ok we won't be civil. Let's reduce ourselves to attacking each other cuz we think differently. Must be how it is in Canada...
:rolleyes:

[Canadian'eh!]

Ok we won't be civil. Let's reduce ourselves to attacking each other cuz we think differently. Must be how it is in Canada...
:rolleyes:


i'm just pointing out it's a 2 way street. i don't disagree with your point though. you can't lay all the blame on everyone else and excuse Cyn as the victim because you generally agree with him. He gives just as much or more than he takes.

[helmetguy]

IT's fun when i get quoted because since i'm on his iggy list, i never know which comments he'll get to read. it's a little game i play here.
I finally iggied him myself; as I did Wys and the den of "Bears." Logical, rational discourse is one thing. Unfortunately, I forgot to heed cordog's advice and got sucked in. One can not engage in logical, rational discourse with an adversary who presents opinion as fact and dismisses fact as opinion.

[chernobylwraiths]

I do think that it isn't very smart to fire a GM after one failed coach. Sure, he is the GM and makes the final decision on who to pick, but most teams go through failed coaches, especially when they are successful former college coaches. But this is a position that is usually given a lot of leeway regarding coaches. You can look at a lot of other sports and see how GMs stick around for a long while if it is thought that the coaching had the talent to succeed but didn't. It is hard to find a good coach in the NFL, especially when you hire one without any previous experience.

Mike Mularkey need a minimum of two to three years to see if he can take this squad to the playoffs. More if there are extenuating circumstances, like major injury to a star player. What the group of players TD brought in here seemed to need more than anything was top notch coaching. Even good coaches take a little time to get through to their players. Many are now beginning to take the bust label off of Mike Williams now.

One of the last people you can blame is the GM for wins and losses. Sure they get the talent to put on the field, but coaching and players are much more culpable when it comes to why a team is winning or losing. TD made a big mistake with getting Gregg Williams and then a bit bigger mistake by keeping him after 8-8 when it was obvious to many probably here and in many other places that Gregg wasn't a good HC.

[unpaid_bills]

way too complex a discussion for me

I think TD is doing a nice job given the mess he was handed - we have a good competitive team on the field with lots of upside and some really good players.

:holdhand: Can't we all just get along?

[The_Philster]

I finally iggied him myself; as I did Wys and the den of "Bears." Logical, rational discourse is one thing. Unfortunately, I forgot to heed cordog's advice and got sucked in. One can not engage in logical, rational discourse with an adversary who presents opinion as fact and dismisses fact as opinion.
Best way of dealing with him is ignoring him...he doesn't seem to feel he could ever be wrong or ever learn anything...why bother? :idunno:

[G. Host]

If he had done that last year, like he said he would, this team would be in the midst of a Playoff Run.. Instead of being on the outside looking in.

GW's and Gilbride's game plans as well as bad line coaching would have ruined any OL picked up.

Donahoe invested the money last year with coach (Gray) who seemed to be able to use talent. Offense coaches were not happy with picks last year.

[Mr. Cynical]

I finally iggied him myself; as I did Wys and the den of "Bears." Logical, rational discourse is one thing. Unfortunately, I forgot to heed cordog's advice and got sucked in. One can not engage in logical, rational discourse with an adversary who presents opinion as fact and dismisses fact as opinion.
Now that you have me on ignore, I'll do the same. I like to have constructive debates, not pissing matches, which is what you always seemed to want to start. That is painfully clear after looking back at your posts from the last week. Too bad we still have to read each other's posts when they are quoted by others but nothing's perfect.

[Canadian'eh!]

I do think that it isn't very smart to fire a GM after one failed coach. Sure, he is the GM and makes the final decision on who to pick, but most teams go through failed coaches, especially when they are successful former college coaches. But this is a position that is usually given a lot of leeway regarding coaches. You can look at a lot of other sports and see how GMs stick around for a long while if it is thought that the coaching had the talent to succeed but didn't. It is hard to find a good coach in the NFL, especially when you hire one without any previous experience.

Mike Mularkey need a minimum of two to three years to see if he can take this squad to the playoffs. More if there are extenuating circumstances, like major injury to a star player. What the group of players TD brought in here seemed to need more than anything was top notch coaching. Even good coaches take a little time to get through to their players. Many are now beginning to take the bust label off of Mike Williams now.

One of the last people you can blame is the GM for wins and losses. Sure they get the talent to put on the field, but coaching and players are much more culpable when it comes to why a team is winning or losing. TD made a big mistake with getting Gregg Williams and then a bit bigger mistake by keeping him after 8-8 when it was obvious to many probably here and in many other places that Gregg wasn't a good HC.


It was a tough call on Williams... Our O was potent the first year, then we took too much away from it to fix our D, so the genereal feeling was that you had to fix the problems that had arisen on the O and give him that 3rd year to see if he can put it all together.

I can't argue with that even though there were definately question marks at the time. I didn't like the fact that no one stepped in and relieved Gilbride of the playcalling duties last year. It was obvious after about week 6 that something needed to be done and wasn't.

Still... the truth is that the first and second years of TD's time here were bound to be a total write off with that cap situation. no coach or GM could have avoided it.

Williams was the wrong choice (though everyone is back on his jock over the Washington D... good luck to whoever overlooks his past HC job) But the players are really behind Mularkey now, and they have responded better to him at this point than they EVER did to MW.

So since this is the case, i can't see how you can use the Williams era against him. maybe he was a bit too fair in giving Williams as much time as he got, but the past is the past and I like what's going on this season.

[The_Philster]

:gag:

[Canadian'eh!]

Best way of dealing with him is ignoring him...he doesn't seem to feel he could ever be wrong or ever learn anything...why bother? :idunno:

This "personal attack" has been brought to you by the letters F, U and the number 11.

[The_Philster]

This "personal attack" has been brought to you by the letters F, U and the number 11.
:rofl:

[Mr. Cynical]

I do think that it isn't very smart to fire a GM after one failed coach. Sure, he is the GM and makes the final decision on who to pick, but most teams go through failed coaches, especially when they are successful former college coaches. But this is a position that is usually given a lot of leeway regarding coaches. You can look at a lot of other sports and see how GMs stick around for a long while if it is thought that the coaching had the talent to succeed but didn't. It is hard to find a good coach in the NFL, especially when you hire one without any previous experience.

Mike Mularkey need a minimum of two to three years to see if he can take this squad to the playoffs. More if there are extenuating circumstances, like major injury to a star player. What the group of players TD brought in here seemed to need more than anything was top notch coaching. Even good coaches take a little time to get through to their players. Many are now beginning to take the bust label off of Mike Williams now.

One of the last people you can blame is the GM for wins and losses. Sure they get the talent to put on the field, but coaching and players are much more culpable when it comes to why a team is winning or losing. TD made a big mistake with getting Gregg Williams and then a bit bigger mistake by keeping him after 8-8 when it was obvious to many probably here and in many other places that Gregg wasn't a good HC.I agree that you can't have a knee jerk reaction with firing a GM. You need time to put together a good team, see how drafts develop, etc. But I disagree that a GM is the last person to blame for a team's failures.

I know what you are saying about the players and coaches being closer to the direct result of the game, but in that case you could argue that the you can't really blame the coach either since the players play the game.

But in reality we know that the coach not only has the responsibility to make the gameplan, he also has to be able to motivate the players to play. If the players play poorly, many times it can be attributed to a coach who can't get players to respond. The other times it is just because the players suck, in which case that goes back to the GM.

So to place blame you have to look at it from a responsibility perspective. Just like a captain of the ship or the CEO of a company, the GM is responsible for the results, regardless of whether it is directly his fault. That's why if we miss the playoffs next year (and miss them this year), IMO you have to get rid of him. That doesn't necessarily mean he sucks as a GM, it just means it wasn't meant to be here in Buffalo, e.g., like Belichick in Cleveland.

[Canadian'eh!]

I agree that you can't have a knee jerk reaction with firing a GM. You need time to put together a good team, see how drafts develop, etc. But I disagree that a GM is the last person to blame for a team's failures.

I know what you are saying about the players and coaches being closer to the direct result of the game, but in that case you could argue that the you can't really blame the coach either since the players play the game.

But in reality we know that the coach not only has the responsibility to make the gameplan, he also has to be able to motivate the players to play. If the players play poorly, many times it can be attributed to a coach who can't get players to respond. The other times it is just because the players suck, in which case that goes back to the GM.

So to place blame you have to look at it from a responsibility perspective. Just like a captain of the ship or the CEO of a company, the GM is responsible for the results, regardless of whether it is directly his fault. That's why if we miss the playoffs next year (and miss them this year), IMO you have to get rid of him. That doesn't necessarily mean he sucks as a GM, it just means it wasn't meant to be here in Buffalo, e.g., like Belichick in Cleveland.


So, but this logic, (this year aside because the new regime meant putting ourselves in a hole that may be too deep no matter what happens) IF we miss te playoffs next year BECAUSE we did what Cyn wants and went with Losman... that's not an excuse.

A raw QB who spent most of this year hurt and no experience is going to lead us to the playoffs right away.... OR we bring in a Warner or Brunell type reject fom another team and expect HIM to get us there.

why not just fire him now if you wan to put him in a no win situation and then blame him for it? :shortbus:

[helmetguy]

So, but this logic, (this year aside because the new regime meant putting ourselves in a hole that may be too deep no matter what happens) IF we miss te playoffs next year BECAUSE we did what Cyn wants and went with Losman... that's not an excuse.

A raw QB who spent most of this year hurt and no experience is going to lead us to the playoffs right away.... OR we bring in a Warner or Brunell type reject fom another team and expect HIM to get us there.

why not just fire him now if you wan to put him in a no win situation and then blame him for it? :shortbus:



I was so proud of this when I posted it in another thread that I thought it bore repeating here. TD's got nothing on me in the ego department!


Since the 0-4 start-particularly after the abyssmal finish to last season that began with so much promise-perceptions die hard. Without wholesale personnel changes on the roster, this team has, to the utter amazement of many, become a force to be reckoned with. The biggest difference between this season and the previous two is that, whereas Gilbride addressed the offense as eleven entities, Mularkey, Clements, McNally and Wyche made it a single entity much greater than the sum of the parts. Same goes for the other aspects. Whereas, it used to be one unit had to bail out the other, the current approach is for each unit to bolster the other. That is, STs set up the offense with better field position. Or, it can set up the defense by putting the opponent in poorer field position. Or, the offense putting up points to allow the defense to be more aggressive. The defense getting takeaways sets up the offense for more chances to score. Sounds pretty simple, doesn't it? Sure, it took four to six weeks into the regular season to start realizing that. Just the same, they had at least two years' worth of messes to clean up.

[Canadian'eh!]

I was so proud of this when I posted it in another thread that I thought it bore repeating here. TD's got nothing on me in the ego department!


Since the 0-4 start-particularly after the abyssmal finish to last season that began with so much promise-perceptions die hard. Without wholesale personnel changes on the roster, this team has, to the utter amazement of many, become a force to be reckoned with. The biggest difference between this season and the previous two is that, whereas Gilbride addressed the offense as eleven entities, Mularkey, Clements, McNally and Wyche made it a single entity much greater than the sum of the parts. Same goes for the other aspects. Whereas, it used to be one unit had to bail out the other, the current approach is for each unit to bolster the other. That is, STs set up the offense with better field position. Or, it can set up the defense by putting the opponent in poorer field position. Or, the offense putting up points to allow the defense to be more aggressive. The defense getting takeaways sets up the offense for more chances to score. Sounds pretty simple, doesn't it? Sure, it took four to six weeks into the regular season to start realizing that. Just the same, they had at least two years' worth of messes to clean up.


I've read it several times that "A team takes on the personality of it's coach." and I think this is what they meant.

This team has taken on the attitude that Mularkkey brings, which is the "we are a talented team, and our system is a good one, if we continue to work hard and put the mistakes we have made behind us, things WILL go our way."

Such a difference from MW's "I thik this should work but i really don't know what I should do here, if anything. so i'll just yell at someone and pretend this isn't happening" approach

We have an actual "TEAM" now.... and it seems to really be turning the tide. too bad it took those first 5-6 games to really take effect.

[Philagape]

TD's done many good things, and he's made mistakes. Right now the bottom line is we're on the way up. I'm willing to forgive and forget the first three years if this team makes the playoffs, this year or next.

And if you disagree with me, you're a snot-nosed ******ed monkey.
:jk:

[Mr. Cynical]

And if you disagree with me, you're a snot-nosed ******ed monkey. :jk:
:monkey:

:;

[Canadian'eh!]

:monkey:

:;

you said it......