NFL has come a long way

[Mr. Miyagi]

Someone pointed out to me that among this year's pro bowlers, all 3 NFC quarterbacks are black. Culpepper, McNabb, and Vick.

Remember back in the days where blacks weren't even allowed to play in the NFL? Wow. It's nice to see the progress we've made. This society has definitely come a long way. :up::up:

[OpIv37]

Don't tell Rush Limbaugh that

[Jan Reimers]

Don't tell Rush Limbaugh that
First, Rush is not a racist. Second, Vick over Favre?

[OpIv37]

First, Rush is not a racist. Second, Vick over Favre?

I know Rush isn't a racist- but what he said last year was just friggin stupid. But, back to the topic at hand before this ends up in the No Spin Zone-

Vick's a better athlete but Favre is definitely a better QB. What helped Vick is the hype (see MBB's thread) and the fact that his team is 11-3.

[lordofgun]

Someone pointed out to me that among this year's pro bowlers, all 3 NFC quarterbacks are black. Culpepper, McNabb, and Vick.

Remember back in the days where blacks weren't even allowed to play in the NFL? Wow. It's nice to see the progress we've made. This society has definitely come a long way. :up::up:
Sounds racist to me. No whites. :mad:

[lordofgun]

3 black QBs and zero white QBs. Yeah, that's equality!

[Jan Reimers]

3 black QBs and zero white QBs. Yeah, that's equality!
Careful, you'll get Rushed right out of town.

[NC-BILLS44]

What Rush said had some truth to it. What he said was that the press was really pushing for a black QB to do well. The opinion he had was regarding the press and how they overrated McNabb's contributions to a good team because he is black.

I think Rush was right at the time and that McNabb has since proofed him wrong.

Let's review: McNabb, he said, is "overrated ... what we have here is a little social concern in the NFL. The media has been very desirous that a black quarterback can do well—black coaches and black quarterbacks doing well."

"There's a little hope invested in McNabb, and he got a lot of credit for the performance of his team that he didn't deserve. The defense carried this team."

http://slate.msn.com/id/2089193/

[OpIv37]

3 black QBs and zero white QBs. Yeah, that's equality!

Two of the 3 deserve it- Vick is just a product of a marketing campaign.

[NC-BILLS44]

Two of the 3 deserve it- Vick is just a product of a marketing campaign.

:clap:

[OpIv37]

I think Rush was right at the time and that McNabb has since proofed him wrong.



http://slate.msn.com/id/2089193/


I can see your point- the only thing is that Rush needs to know when to keep his damn mouth shut. On his radio show, people expect Rush to say this kind of thing and, while it draws attention, it's not necessarily controversial. During football commentary, invoking race is always walking a thin line.

BTW there was one part of Rush's commentary that I never understood: the part about the media wanting a black QB to do well. Randall Cunningham, Doug Williams (he won a SB), Kordell Stewart, Daunte Culpepper, McNabb, Vick....
True, there hasn't been a black Joe Montana or Dan Marino caliber QB yet, but there have been plenty of successfull black QB's, and when Rush made his comment there were 9 or 10 starting QBs who were black (off the top of my head- Vick, McNabb, Culpepper, Aaron Brooks, Quincy Carter, Kordell Stewart, Steve McNair, Jeff Blake).
With so many black QB's, Rush's comments make no sense. Some of these guys have been successful on their own- they don't need the media to invent it for them.

[jamze132]

I am really shocked to not see Lebron James on the Pro Bowl roster. How they hell did he get snubbed? He has his own shoes too!

[Ralph4prez]

Vick deserves to be there more than Farve this year... You can't base a "Pro Bowl season" on passing stats alone... Vicks team wins more than Farves... plus he has like 800+ ruching yards

[jamze132]

Vick deserves to be there more than Farve this year... You can't base a "Pro Bowl season" on passing stats alone... Vicks team wins more than Farves... plus he has like 800+ ruching yards

He has over 800 "ruching" yards? Is that the amount of yards the Falcons lose when he drops back with one hand on the ball and he loses it?

And you spell Favre like this. Sorry. There are a lot of people here who won't even read a post if they have gramatical errors.

Welcome to Billszone

[Ralph4prez]

Sorry for the bad spelling but i think you missed my point... All Vick does is win... thats the bottom line... and thats going to get you more votes when it comes to the pro bowl... The way Favre has been playing lately he doesn't deserve it more than Vick... Maybe if he could of beat the Jags last week I would feel different about him... and more commentators are always on Favres jock than Vicks...

[Philagape]

I know Rush isn't a racist- but what he said last year was just friggin stupid. But, back to the topic at hand before this ends up in the No Spin Zone-

Vick's a better athlete but Favre is definitely a better QB. What helped Vick is the hype (see MBB's thread) and the fact that his team is 11-3.

Does anyone believe that Atlanta would be 11-3 if they were in the AFC?

As far as race, I don't care what the color of anyone's skin is.

[OpIv37]

Does anyone believe that Atlanta would be 11-3 if they were in the AFC?

As far as race, I don't care what the color of anyone's skin is.

They'd be 6-5 at best in the AFC- there's no way they could score consistently against defenses like Buffalo, Miami, Pittsburgh, Baltimore.

[Ralph4prez]

No way do i believe that the Falcons would be 11-3 in the AFC... i don't think Vick would of made the Pro bowl in the AFC either...

[Charlieguide]

Don't let this become a debate about pro bowlers; start another thread if you want to discuss that. Miyagi's point is about the disappearance of racism in the NFL. The current pro bowl is but a small example.

IMHO, the best sign of the NFL's maturation -- its being above racism -- was last year, the week after Rush Limbaugh's racist comments.

(And yes, they were racist. They were not the comments of a bigot; they were the comments of an ignoramous who feels he must bring up the idea to create controversy. They were racist comments because they questioned the validity of a player's status because of his race.)

ESPN's response was to fire Rush Limbaugh -- a valid move. But I'm speaking of the personal remarks on the subsequent edition of Sunday NFL Countdown. Chris Berman, Steve Young, Michael Irvin, and Tom Jackson were all appalled that race was even mentioned on the show. I was so moved by what those four men said! It was as if a sacred brotherhood had been shattered, and they were struggling to rebuild it.

TJ said he had wanted so badly to respond to the remarks, but he was in such shock that a player's race had even been mentioned, that he couldn't find words. He said 'race' was never a part of the NFL during his days as a player or commentator. Even Michael Irvin spoke eloquently of his feeling of freedom from racial issues as a player, and the difficulty he and others experienced as they left the NFL and found themselves in the 'real' world. And, beautifully, they ran the intro to the show (theme music, monologue, etc) after each man had said his peace, to symbolize their moving past it.

I envy the NFL for their apparent evolution -- as a society, not just an occupation -- beyond the very idea of race. If only the rest of us could follow their example, and for all "isms."

[Lone Stranger]

I bleieve you are overlooking the fact that the number of black head coaches has not changed much for the past few years. There has been some increase in assistants but still not appreciable to my way of thinking.

[Philagape]

What Rush said was NOT racist; saying it was is a complete distortion and revisionism.

Rush made 2 points:

1. He said McNabb was overrated. Now agree or disagree with that; I disagreed. But it had NOTHING to do with his race. It was strictly a football opinion.

2. He said the media overrated McNabb because he was black. That statement was about the MEDIA, not McNabb. His point was the media practices affirmative action in its coverage, which is unquestionably true. I work for a newspaper, and I know for a fact that its policy is to emphasize racial diversity and "mainstreaming" (which means making sure minorities are displayed prominently in what would otherwise be race-neutral stories).

People who cry racism are just oversensitive and trying to be politically correct.

[Mr. Miyagi]

3 black QBs and zero white QBs. Yeah, that's equality!
Check out the AFC QBs. All white.

That's equality.

[SoCalBillsFan]

You might disagree with rush, but his comments weren't racist. THe idea that the media could overhype a quarterback because he was black isn't ridiculous. Do you remember all the stories several years back networks were doing about black quarterbacks? And if you look at McNabbs stats, it's wasy to see where rush formed his opinion. I think he was wrong, but people are wrong about quarterbacks being over or underrated all the time.

[SoCalBillsFan]

Check out the AFC QBs. All white.

That's equality.


I don't think equality is about numbers. It's about an attitude of equality. It's about being open to people regardless of skin color.

[lordofgun]

Check out the AFC QBs. All white.

That's equality.
My point is who cares what color anyone's skin is? 95% of the time, minorities seem to be the ones bringing up race issues. We'll never become a colorblind society that way. A person is a person is a person. JMHO.

[Crisis]

My point is who cares what color anyone's skin is? 95% of the time, minorities seem to be the ones bringing up race issues. We'll never become a colorblind society that way. A person is a person is a person. JMHO.

I agree.

I'm tired of minorities bringing up racism alot, when they're the only ones thinking anything remotely close to it.

[SoCalBillsFan]

My point is who cares what color anyone's skin is? 95% of the time, minorities seem to be the ones bringing up race issues. We'll never become a colorblind society that way. A person is a person is a person. JMHO.


:up:

[Mr. Miyagi]

I wholeheartedly agree with LOG. I wouldn't have even noticed the basis of this thread until someone pointed it out to me. And the fact that most of us didn't notice is what equality is all about: color-blindness. :up:

[Charlieguide]

And the fact that most of us didn't notice is what equality is all about: color-blindness. :up:

Exactly.

[DaBills]

""I don't think he's been that good from the get-go.* I think what we've had here is a little social concern in the NFL.* I think the media has been very desirous that a black quarterback do well.* They're interested in black coaches and black quarterbacks doing well.* I think there's a little hope invested in McNabb and he got a lot of credit for the performance of his team that he really didn't deserve. * The defense carried this team."

racist: "
1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others."

Judge for yourselves if you think he's racist.

The first paragraph is Rush's quote. He may not have directly said that he thinks black QBs in particular need to do better, but he is in fact hiding behind a general blanket statement that someone else, (in this case, the media) "wished" to be true about black QBs.

But that's what neo-con blowhards like him do, hide behind general blanket statements and use words like "they' and "them". It's easy to spew crap that way since you never really come out and give a specific example, you just pick out a group and go to town. He should change his name to 'RushHateMe'.

Only difference between him and Jimmy the Greek is that Jimmy didn't have the foresight to attribute his quote to a particular group — he foolishly said it himself.



""I'm tired of minorities bringing up racism alot, when they're the only ones thinking anything remotely close to it.""


To say racism is not occurring or to trivialize it is disingenuous at best.

Vick vs. Favre? C'mon. Let's take some Ritalin, focus, and get back on track to address the thread's point. We all want to think 'it's all good', and race doesn't matter. I also understand the fact that we may be sick of calls of "equal opportunity, affirmative action and quotas" every time a minority gets fired or overlooked for a job.

But if it doesn't affect you, how can you understand it? The truth is while the number of African-American players has increased in leadership position roles ten-fold,(QB's) the coaching positions have not. And the front office positions certainly have not.

Black GMs? Owners? Ozzie Newsome as player personal direxctor in Baltimore is about the only one I know that is looked up to as a good example. But that's about it. (The NBA is closer, but that's because MJ and Magic are superstars that are forcing the issue.)

To the minorities out there not getting the promotions when they may be as or more qualified than others in the NFL, it's very real for them. Lou Saban over Art Schell as an NFL coach? In what alternate universe???? Even if you went by W-L records, how is Art NOT qualified to take over?

:crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:

[Philagape]

"He may not have directly said that he thinks black QBs in particular need to do better, but he is in fact hiding behind a general blanket statement that someone else, (in this case, the media) "wished" to be true about black QBs.

But that's what neo-con blowhards like him do, hide behind general blanket statements and use words like "they' and "them".

So in other words, you're assuming conservatives are racists, which is itself bigoted prejudice. What evidence do you have that he was, "IN FACT," hiding behind a blanket statement? "In fact" means it's been established by evidence. But you haven't done that at all; you've only expressed your judgmental opinion.
Like I posted earlier, what he said about the media is true. I know because I'm in the media.

[SoCalBillsFan]

"" Lou Saban over Art Schell as an NFL coach? In what alternate universe???? Even if you went by W-L records, how is Art NOT qualified to take over?



uh..in this universe. Schell has been mediocre, not that he's been bad, but I think the potential for Saban is a lot higher. Guy has done amazing things in college, and has an NFL background.

I could see hiring schell over saban, but personally I'd take saban. Either way, to suggest picking saban over schell is crazy is just not accurate, IMO...

[Captain gameboy]

I don't think its the NFL that has "come a long way."
I think its some quarterbacks.

Some are black. Some are white.
So what.
If they're good they start and become successful.
If they aren't, they don't.

Not much calculus involved.

[DaBills]

uh..in this universe. Schell has been mediocre, not that he's been bad, but I think the potential for Saban is a lot higher. Guy has done amazing things in college, and has an NFL background.

I could see hiring schell over saban, but personally I'd take saban. Either way, to suggest picking saban over schell is crazy is just not accurate, IMO...

Potential. Always the great barometer of success. I'll take a hall of fame player with a winning record in the pros over a college coach with 'potential' any day.

(I meant Nick btw, not Lou.)

[DaBills]

So in other words, you're assuming conservatives are racists, which is itself bigoted prejudice. What evidence do you have that he was, "IN FACT," hiding behind a blanket statement? "In fact" means it's been established by evidence. But you haven't done that at all; you've only expressed your judgmental opinion.
Like I posted earlier, what he said about the media is true. I know because I'm in the media.

You're in the media, yet apparently are very sensitive to comments about 'neo-cons.' Now is that really being objective for a 'media' person? Or does the media not have to be objective in your world? Forget it, we'll get back to that later.

Re-read my post. I didn't say he or any conservatives were racist, (just the ones wearing the sheets). (That's a joke for all the liberal media lovers out there btw.) I requoted his quote. I gave a definition of racism. Let the people decide for themselves I said. I said neo-con blowhards like him. (Coulter and Hanity among others if you need more names.) I did not say 'all conservatives' anywhere in my post.

As for what evidence? He said it himself! Him not specfically giving the name(s) of those who felt that way about black QBs, IS a blanket statement, not to mention very typical of his style of presenting an arguement on many issues. He specifically gave no names from the 'media,' when he said 'They' and 'The media' .

Perhaps if he said 'like "Peter King from SI said...", I might be able to side with the guy. And if he had proof of his statement, why didn't he quote his source then as fact? I guess his is a judgemental opinion that is ok, but mine is not?

And I've listened to enough 'media' reporting from many sides to know when people throw around blanket statements, like "All liberals do is..." or "All Republicans are bible-thumping..." Rush throws around his share plenty. Listen for one afternoon and you'll see.

Or a blanket statement like this: "all conservatives in the media do when confronted with a specific point is attack the messenger and avoid answering the question by countering with a different point."

But then to be fair, so does Air America when they bash conservatives. Al Franken or that shrill vulture in the afternoon, (Randi Rohodes?). It really seeems 'fair and balanced' is just a pipe dream.

Maybe the 'media' needs to stop preaching to their choirs and actually present both sides of an issue 'objectively.' Nah, too difficult apparently.

But let's not digress: no one has answered this point: There is not enough hiring going on in the upper levels of league offices which would in turn foster true racial equality and growth in key positions. More black QBs is not the only answer.

So if you're in the media, why can't you get all the zoners here field-level passes for the Pitt game? Or are you only going to give them out to the neo-cons?



:shocked: :shocked: :shocked:

[SoCalBillsFan]

again...the point wasn't necessaril that saban was a better hire, but that its understandable why they went with saban over schell. An earlier poster ad made it sound like that choice was ridiculous.

[SoCalBillsFan]

But let's not digress: no one has answered this point: There is not enough hiring going on in the upper levels of league offices which would in turn foster true racial equality and growth in key positions. More black QBs is not the only answer.




I agree it would be nice to see more black head coaches. BUt at the same time, if I'm an owner I want to hire the guy I think will be the best coach, regardless of his skin color. I think in a lot of cases that's what happens, and there just aren't as many black coaches out there right now. I don't necessarily believe that owners are turning down block coaches because they are black. I think they just want to hire the best guy, and recently those guys have happened to be white (though marvin lewis is a good example of one who was black). I'm sure some of you will disagree, and if there is evidence I am wrong, I would love to see it.

Again, the most important thing is that teams are hiring the best people and that skin color is not a factor at all.

[Philagape]

As for what evidence? He said it himself! Him not specfically giving the name(s) of those who felt that way about black QBs, IS a blanket statement,

You did more than say he made a blanket statement; you implied that Rush is hiding his own racism behind a blanket statement:


He may not have directly said that he thinks black QBs in particular need to do better, but he is in fact hiding behind a general blanket statement that someone else, (in this case, the media) "wished" to be true about black QBs.

That's what I'm calling you on: implying that he's a racist. Tell me what he said that's racist. I've already broken it down and demonstrated that it wasn't:

RUSH: "I don't think he's been that good from the get-go. I think what we've had here is a little social concern in the NFL. I think the <b>MEDIA</b> has been very desirous that a black quarterback do well. They're interested in black coaches and black quarterbacks doing well. I think there's a little hope invested in McNabb and he got a lot of credit for the performance of his team that he really didn't deserve. <b>FOOTBALL OPINION</b> The defense carried this team."

[Philagape]

And .... To me, a blowhard is someone who calls other people blowhards and doesn't back it up. Rhetoric is not an argument.

As for my experience in the media: I design pages for a newspaper. There is a committee here whose job it is to count the number of times minorities are represented in coverage. On almost a weekly basis, I'm told to use photos of minorities to a point that's WAY more than their respective percentage of the local population. I'm not saying I disapprove of this policy; I personally don't care, but that policy is the definition of affirmative action.

And I've already stated my opinion on the whole subject. I don't care what color people's skin is. If there's racism in a given institution, prove it.

[DaBills]

So you can't get those tickets then?



And .... To me, a blowhard is someone who calls other people blowhards and doesn't back it up. Rhetoric is not an argument.


Please, get real. It's backed up plenty. Listen to his show, read some of his columns. Stop being a Rush apologist and admit the guy could be on-air 24-7 and still not have enough airtime. That's a blowhard. That you're resorting to insults means you don't have much else to fall back on. At least come out and say it directly.

Sorry the X-files are off the air, but you're looking for racist conspiracies and intentions in my post that just aren't there. I didn't say he was racist and it doesn't 'imply' being racist. I said he hid behind 'blanket statements,' he attributed to others. He did in that particular statement and he does so on his show. I will stand by that, since you've not proven that statement to be untrue. What you infer is not my problem.

Seeing how as people were going off on tangents as the thread progressed, I figured they would appreciate having the actual statement and definition side by side. Just to make up their own minds and not misquote him or the definition of the word. Apparently not, as you've demonstrated.

Taking your own logic about what he said that was racist: are you saying to everyone here that qualifying a person with regard to their success in a given industry, based on their race and how that particular race needs success, isn't a racist statement, even in the least?

If, as you say, race doesn't matter, and that the best QB should play, why even bring up whether they're black, hispanic, etc or not then? Why would Rush need to even bring that up?

Do you realize the football opinion that the Eagles defense carried a QB and team is justified by a statement about how blacks need to do well is absurd? That's like saying the only reason media and anyone that wants to see Drew do well in spite of being carried by the D, is that they think there's not enough tall white geeky guys in the QB slot.

If a QB is not playing well even when a team is winning, why is his race an issue? The criteria for *****ty play should be simple: INT's, INCs, sacks, TO's, QB rating. Not race or whether there's enough affirmative action towards his particular position.

I'd have more respect for your rhetoric if you would recognize that his statements were at least inappropriate and inciting to some, instead of defending him so much. But why take my word for it? Steve Young, Micheal Irvin, even McNabb himself, to name but a few, all expressed shock and awe. Why do you think that was? The tie Rush chose to wear that day?

The funny thing is, we aren't even having this discussion if he says at the time "Some people in the media, not me of course , share the view that..." Doing that, he would have taken himself right out of the spotlight and made the focus be about an important issue, not how that issue came to light.

And props at least to SoCal for answering one of my points about the main issue in this thread. It's about the perceived racial inequality in the league, not whether Rush is a blowhard.



It's about time this thread is moved to a different forum anyway.

:nervous:

:peace: :shocked: :tip: :snooze: :dance: :tired: :bow: :winkpunch :fury:

[Philagape]

I didn't say he was racist and it doesn't 'imply' being racist. I said he hid behind 'blanket statements,' he attributed to others.

Why do you use the word hid? What is he hiding?


Taking your own logic about what he said that was racist: are you saying to everyone here that qualifying a person with regard to their success in a given industry, based on their race and how that particular race needs success, isn't a racist statement, even in the least?


Do you realize the football opinion that the Eagles defense carried a QB and team is justified by a statement about how blacks need to do well is absurd?

Let me make clear, as I stated earlier, that I disagreed with Rush's opinion that McNabb was overrated. He criticized him as a football player, and I think that criticism was way off-base. But his criticism of McNabb as a football player had absolutely nothing to do with his race. What Rush took issue with was what he perceived as the media overhyping McNabb because he's black (again, I disagree; the media hype McNabb because he deserves it). The comments that touched on race were strictly about the media, and I do agree that the media gives a lot of attention to people's race and sometimes give some minorities more coverage than they warrant simply because they're minorities. That's just an observation.


I'd have more respect for your rhetoric if you would recognize that his statements were at least inappropriate and inciting to some, instead of defending him so much. But why take my word for it? Steve Young, Micheal Irvin, even McNabb himself, to name but a few, all expressed shock and awe. Why do you think that was? The tie Rush chose to wear that day?

Of course they were inciting! Hence, this discussion. I get incited when people cry racism because more often than not, it's PC BS. Implications of racism chill free speech, and I have a big problem with that. That's why I defend Rush. Speech that incites is the very kind of speech that should be defended.
As far as inappropriate, that's an opinion. I don't think any speech is inappropriate in this sense when there is freedom of speech. Some people are incited by anything; this is a nation of oversensitivity and political correctness, with people walking around like they have a right to not be offended -- a right that does not exist. Just because people are offended by a certain statement doesn't mean it's wrong to say it. To paraphrase Patrick Henry (I think), I disagreed with most of what Rush said, but I'll defend unto death his right to say it.

And why are Steve Young's or Michael Irvin's opinions more valid than anyone else's? I don't care what they think.

[DaBills]

Ok, before I get off into blowhard status on this thread, lol. "TOO LATE" many have said.

What I mean by hiding is saying the proverbial "we" or "they" when voicing an opinion. I'm sorry, but that's just too easy to do because it ends up lumping people together without actual quotes. If he felt that way about the media, then at least gimmee some specifics. Is it the collective TV broadcast media? Is it Stuart Scott in ESPN the magazine? SI? Etc.

I bring up Irvin & Co. only in that as players, they are closer to the game than anyone and have the right to best comment about the issue. I haven't been in there shoes. My point on them was just that if they were obviously had problems with the statement, then there's gotta' be something to it, ya' know?

It's all good though. I'm gonna go turn on the tall, white geeky guy named Bledsoe pound the 49ers.*






*PC DISCLAIMER: This statement in no way means to insult or defame tall white geeky QBs who may be reading this thread.



:funny: