Where do you consider Peyton Manning

[daquixxers]

The thing is that this isnt Peyton's first big year. He has had SIX STRAIGHT YEARS of 4,000 plus yards. Kelly never did that. He has had SEVEN STRAIGHT years of 25+ TD's in one year. He has been in the league SEVEN years and his average QB rating is a whopping 92.3 ...

[Charlieguide]

True. And this year, he isn't just going to beat Marino's TD or yardage record. He has thrown only NINE INT's! That's a TD:INT ratio of 5:1, baby!! ( . . . No one here gets out alive . . .) His season QB rating is over 123, which is 10 points over the previous season record! Whether you believe in QBrat or not, that's impressive. Manning's 04 season will probably go down as the best all-around season for any QB ever. Watching he and Ray Lewis play chess with their players last week was a thing of beauty.

The amazing part is, Peyton is obviously still learning, and he knows he has more to learn. He, like Jerry Rice at WR, will not be satisfied with Super Bowl wins, NFL records, or anything else. He strives to perfect his game. That drive, combined with his physical talents, and his amazing intelligence and understanding of the game, WILL see him to the status of greatest QB ever.

But the scary thing is, he has younger brothers. (I heard there's one still in HS. Confirm?) Imagine the legacy the Manning family may leave on the NFL in the next 10-20 years . . . and imagine what their sons may do . . .

[SABURZFAN]

i'll let you know when he's done playing football. :up:

[Dozerdog]

I don't just consider stats when rating QBs- I do the whole package-

-Leadership
-Accomplishments
-Impact on opponents
-Comparison to others in their era


My top QBs of all time- no particular order- Kelly comes close with others in cracking this list

Unitas
Montana
Otto Graham
Sammy Baugh
Staubach
Elway
Favre
Bart Starr

[daquixxers]

-Leadership
-Accomplishments
-Impact on opponents
-Comparison to others in their era

I personally think:

Leadership - check (peyton is a good lead IMO)
Accomplishments - 2 playoff wins, not yet a superbowl - check minus
Impact on opponents - check plus plus plus (the guy gives D coordinators fits)
Comparisons to others in their era - other than Favre there is NO comparison, he is head and shoulders above everyone else

[TigerJ]

Peyton's biggest downside is he's so expensive that it's a challenge for the Colts to pay for a good team around him.

[daquixxers]

Peyton's biggest downside is he's so expensive that it's a challenge for the Colts to pay for a good team around him.
If they Colts are a "bad" team then I would accept a "bad" team in Buffalo anyday.

11-3 sounds REALLY nice to me ...

[Forward_Lateral]

You can never, NEVER compare Manning to guys like Montana, Unitas, Bradshaw, Elway, Favre until he wins a superbowl. I don't care if he throws 100 TD passes in a season and breaks every record there is, until he wins a Superbowl, he will remain in the same class as Dan Marino.

[daquixxers]

You can never, NEVER compare Manning to guys like Montana, Unitas, Bradshaw, Elway, Favre until he wins a superbowl. I don't care if he throws 100 TD passes in a season and breaks every record there is, until he wins a Superbowl, he will remain in the same class as Dan Marino.
Top 3 ever - lol - thats what pretty much everyone considers Marino.

You have to understand that you can have the best QB to ever play the game and if the rest of your team sucks then he wont get a ring. Thats not his fault.

Back when Unitas, Marino, Bradway and half of Favres/Elways career there was NO SALARY CAP so they could have a bunch of stars on a team (like bradshaw and montana did) .... now you cant do that.

[The Predator]

Manning Is The Best QB In The Game Right Now.

[illusionone]

The thing is that this isnt Peyton's first big year. He has had SIX STRAIGHT YEARS of 4,000 plus yards. Kelly never did that. He has had SEVEN STRAIGHT years of 25+ TD's in one year. He has been in the league SEVEN years and his average QB rating is a whopping 92.3 ...

I agree with this but in his six years in the NFL he has choked in every important game they have had. He has never brought his team even close to the Super Bowl. I think he is a chump unless he proves otherwise. As much as I can't stand Brady, he has been in the league 4 years less than Manning, but he has 2 Super Bowls, 2 Super Bowl MVP's and he's a 2 time pro bowler (including this year). Brady has never lost a play-off game, an over time game, and has really only lost a handfull of games thus far.

If you were to rank Manning in any of the above catagories, you would have to put Brady at least 4 spots ahead of him in the rankings. The only think Manning has is a bunch of stats that didn't result in superbowl appearences.


My two cents

[The King]

I agree with this but in his six years in the NFL he has choked in every important game they have had. He has never brought his team even close to the Super Bowl. I think he is a chump unless he proves otherwise. As much as I can't stand Brady, he has been in the league 4 years less than Manning, but he has 2 Super Bowls, 2 Super Bowl MVP's and he's a 2 time pro bowler (including this year). Brady has never lost a play-off game, an over time game, and has really only lost a handfull of games thus far.

If you were to rank Manning in any of the above catagories, you would have to put Brady at least 4 spots ahead of him in the rankings. The only think Manning has is a bunch of stats that didn't result in superbowl appearences.


My two cents

I believe this is Bradys first Pro Bowl. You cant really compare Brady and Manning either Manning carries his team through the air almost everygame. The Pats super bowl teams were won with defense mostly. And Manning has never been close to the Big Game? Didnt Indy play the Pats in the AFC Championship last year?

They are very different QB's though and really cant be compared

[Dozerdog]

Can Manning please beat Tom Brady ONCE??? Just once.

[tampabay25690]

I think Peyton is the best in the game right now. He is probably the SMARTEST QB ever to play the game. But he does play in a great offense.....But I still consider him a top 5 QB of all time, as of right now!!!

[daquixxers]

I agree with this but in his six years in the NFL he has choked in every important game they have had. He has never brought his team even close to the Super Bowl. I think he is a chump unless he proves otherwise. As much as I can't stand Brady, he has been in the league 4 years less than Manning, but he has 2 Super Bowls, 2 Super Bowl MVP's and he's a 2 time pro bowler (including this year). Brady has never lost a play-off game, an over time game, and has really only lost a handfull of games thus far.

If you were to rank Manning in any of the above catagories, you would have to put Brady at least 4 spots ahead of him in the rankings. The only think Manning has is a bunch of stats that didn't result in superbowl appearences.


My two centsUgh - he won 2 playoff games last year (1 on the road) and then played Indy in the AFC Championship game ... thats not getting close to the SB ?????

Put Brady four spots ahead of him? Are you joking? All time ranks list is NOT ABOUT SB's - it about who is good and who is not. Should Barry Sanders not be in the top 3 all time because he never won a SB? Absolutely not - he was absolutely amazing.

Put Manning in the Patsies team and they have 3-4 SB rings instead of 2 ... Manning is HEAD AND SHOULDERS above Brady. Someone pointed this out earlier in the thread - NE's defense saved Brady's ass many different times in that 2001 SB run and even last year. Manning has had to carry his team.

Put it this way : TRENT DILFER has won a SB - so what Brady did doesnt impress me enough to put him ANYWHERE NEAR peyton mannnings level.

[daquixxers]

Can Manning please beat Tom Brady ONCE??? Just once.He did. 1st game of the year - Vanderjagt missed the field goal - DAMN HIM!

[John Doe]

If Manning were placed on any of the great teams that the other top QB's had he would have a few superbowls by now. Its a team game.

[daquixxers]

If Manning were placed on any of the great teams that the other top QB's had he would have a few superbowls by now. Its a team game.
EXACTLY! Tom Brady is a victim of a great team. Put Manning on Tom's team and he as 3-4 SB rings ...

[illusionone]

EXACTLY! Tom Brady is a victim of a great team. Put Manning on Tom's team and he as 3-4 SB rings ...
I disagree hole heartedly....

Payton Maning has had the #1 WR (Harrison) #1 RB (James) a great offensive line for 6 straight years and has done nothing with it.

Tom Brady has had less than average or average WR's and RB's for his first 3 years and has been sucessfull.

What makes you think Payton could do more with less?????

I would make the argument that if Brady were on the Colts the last 6 years, with all the wepons that Payton had,the colts would have won at least 2 Superbowls.

It is true that in '01 the defense was a big part of the Pats Superbowl win, but Brady had the poise to get himself out of trouble i.e. last drive in the superbowl.

I also agree that QB's are not 100% rated by superbowl rings...but it helps...IMO as much as I hate to say it..Tom Brady has achieved more in the NFL in his 4 years than Manning has done in 6.....regardless of how you think the 2 superbowls were won or how they got there, Brady was the leader on both teams. And was named Superbowl MVP.

Brady is clearly the Better QB.

[DaBills]

If they Colts are a "bad" team then I would accept a "bad" team in Buffalo anyday.

11-3 sounds REALLY nice to me ...

I don't think he's saying bad. Think about how much money/emphasis the Colts have put on the offensive side of the ball between just Manning and Harrison. You still have James to deal with in the off season unless he's franchised.

With those kind of bucks, how can you build a strong D? Arguement can be made that it don't matter when your O can put 4-5 TDs a game.

As far as greatest? He's on the road to becoming one, but until he has that ring, he'll always have that SB asterisk* next to his name like a Marino, a Moon, etc. I also agree with Doz, ya' gotta' look at the total career.

If I recall, his dad Archie never was on a team with a winning record, being saddled with ****-poor teams. Manning at least has some decent weapons around him. So it could be said you have to judge the QB also on the talent (or lack thereof) around him.

Doug WIlliams, Jim Plunkett, Troy Aikman not statistical monsters either when compared to Manning, but they got a ring. (It could also be said that Troy had similar type weapons in Dallas that Brady has in NE. Solid D, solid running game, go to WRs.)

And Kelly in the mix is apples and oranges in this way: Kelly didn't play all his years in the NFL. (Same for Moon.)





*Never won a Super Bowl ring as a starter.

[RaginBuc]

I disagree hole heartedly....

Payton Maning has had the #1 WR (Harrison) #1 RB (James) a great offensive line for 6 straight years and has done nothing with it.

Tom Brady has had less than average or average WR's and RB's for his first 3 years and has been sucessfull.

What makes you think Payton could do more with less?????

I would make the argument that if Brady were on the Colts the last 6 years, with all the wepons that Payton had,the colts would have won at least 2 Superbowls.

It is true that in '01 the defense was a big part of the Pats Superbowl win, but Brady had the poise to get himself out of trouble i.e. last drive in the superbowl.

I also agree that QB's are not 100% rated by superbowl rings...but it helps...IMO as much as I hate to say it..Tom Brady has achieved more in the NFL in his 4 years than Manning has done in 6.....regardless of how you think the 2 superbowls were won or how they got there, Brady was the leader on both teams. And was named Superbowl MVP.

Brady is clearly the Better QB.Patriots also have a defence that can consistantly hold a lead for them. Give Manning that and he'd give you a dynasty.

Manning is the the best Passer the game has ever seen. Can't really say he's top a 3,5, or 10 all time quarterback until his career is over.

[Slick]

None of the above.

[daquixxers]

Brady is clearly the Better QB.Did anyone else fall on the floor laughing when they read this? Marvin hasnt been the #1 reciever for 6 years ... in fact he was only the #1 receiver in the NFL for 1 year. Also - MARVIN HARRISON said it best HIMSELF. Before Peyton Manning he was an average WR at best ... it was after Peyton came was when he exploded. Peyton is making Marvin Harrison into the great receiver he is.

Also. DEFENSE wins championships. Colts dont have a defense. Give the Colts the NE defense and Manning has AT LEAST 3 SB rings right now. In every playoff game he played (except for 1) his offense put up big points. It is his DEFENSE that lets down games for him.

BRADY better than PEYTON (best in the game and maybe EVER) Manning :crazy:
BTW: TRENT DILFER won a SB - is he better than Peyton too? LMAO

[Dozerdog]

Did anyone else fall on the floor laughing when they read this? Marvin hasnt been the #1 reciever for 6 years ... in fact he was only the #1 receiver in the NFL for 1 year. Also - MARVIN HARRISON said it best HIMSELF. Before Peyton Manning he was an average WR at best ... it was after Peyton came was when he exploded. Peyton is making Marvin Harrison into the great receiver he is.

Also. DEFENSE wins championships. Colts dont have a defense. Give the Colts the NE defense and Manning has AT LEAST 3 SB rings right now. In every playoff game he played (except for 1) his offense put up big points. It is his DEFENSE that lets down games for him.

BRADY better than PEYTON (best in the game and maybe EVER) Manning :crazy:
BTW: TRENT DILFER won a SB - is he better than Peyton too? LMAO
Nope- I agree that Brady is better.

What's more important to you out of your QB- winning or stats?

Peyton manning is the greatest QB in the NFL- if you are a FFL owner.

Brady wins ugly- a lot. And he does it in snow, Ice, wind...swarms of locusts.

Manning is on his way- he made huge steps last year in KC. But he's got a ways to go.

[CuseJetsFan83]

one of the leagues greatest quarterbacks.............. greatest audible caller, etc.

personally i think he is dumb as a box of rocks sometimes off the field, but on the field he is magnificent, and that damn commercial is hillarious

"lets go insurance adjusters lets go"........ "cut the meat, cut that meat"
"its full *airhornnnnnn*"

its just kinda scary to thiink if indy had a d.... they would be unstoppable.!!!!

[DaBills]

Brady wins ugly- a lot. And he does it in snow, Ice, wind...swarms of locusts.

lol. Don't forget the cheap shots by Law too.

[daquixxers]

Nope- I agree that Brady is better.

What's more important to you out of your QB- winning or stats?

Peyton manning is the greatest QB in the NFL- if you are a FFL owner.

Brady wins ugly- a lot. And he does it in snow, Ice, wind...swarms of locusts.

Manning is on his way- he made huge steps last year in KC. But he's got a ways to go.
Ok. I'm starting to think both of you are taking the question in the wrong way. WINNING signifies a good TEAM ... it shows nothing about personal talent. Marino passed for 350 yards and 4 TD's in one game and lost the game by 17 points. Does that make him a bad QB or does that say his team didnt help him?

What your saying is that Brady's TEAM is winning, but because Manning team doesnt win the SB that makes Manning not as good.

So by your logic Antowain Smith (2x SB rings) is better than Barry Sanders (0 rings) and Trent Dilfer (1 ring) is better than Kelly and Marino (0 rings).

Im sorry your logic is faulty. We are not talking about the QB's team we are talking about the actual QB. It is a no brainer and Brady even admits to the fact that the NE defense saved his ass time and time again in the 2001 SB run -and- without Bledsoe they probably wouldnt have even been in the SB considering that Bledsoe threw a TD in the AFC Championsip game in 2001 after Brady was injured.

Brady folded againt a 2-11 Miami team on MNF in front of a national audience ... he did the same thing in last years opening game. Manning has only done that ONCE ...

If I were to build a team around ONE player it would be Peyton Manning ... WINNING does not make a player .... if that was the case then Barry Sanders, Jim Kelly, Andre Reed, Thurman Thomas, Dan Marino and on and on and on arent very good players (which we all know they are).

I think the Manning haters need to give it a rest and consider that this man by the time he retires may be the best QB of all time - as another poster already pointed out - he is already the greatest PASSER of all time.

P.S. - Manning is also 10x SMARTER than Tom Brady

[daquixxers]

one of the leagues greatest quarterbacks.............. greatest audible caller, etc.

personally i think he is dumb as a box of rocks sometimes off the field, but on the field he is magnificent, and that damn commercial is hillarious

"lets go insurance adjusters lets go"........ "cut the meat, cut that meat"
"its full *airhornnnnnn*"

its just kinda scary to thiink if indy had a d.... they would be unstoppable.!!!!
Thats 100% correct ... if they had a decent defense then Peyton would have 3 rings right now and Brady wouldnt even have one.

[DaBills]

"So by your logic Antowain Smith (2x SB rings) is better than Barry Sanders (0 rings) and Trent Dilfer (1 ring) is better than Kelly and Marino (0 rings)."

Not sure who 'both' is you're referring to. But I don't believe that rings alone make the player, I'm just saying that seems to be the common perception out there. Just look at Terry Bradshaw wave his fingers with the rings whenever he ribs a former player on a losing SB team. Marino gets teased about it on the pre-game show, etc.

Trent Dilfer was an average QB. Troy was above average, but not incredible. You could definitely say in his case Irving and Emmitt bailed HIS ass out on the O more than Brady's D has.

If rings technically qualify a player as great, then we're all f'ed 'cause Rob Johnson got one with Tampa Bay.


:shocked:

[daquixxers]

"So by your logic Antowain Smith (2x SB rings) is better than Barry Sanders (0 rings) and Trent Dilfer (1 ring) is better than Kelly and Marino (0 rings)."

Not sure who 'both' is you're referring to. But I don't believe that rings alone make the player, I'm just saying that seems to be the common perception out there. Just look at Terry Bradshaw wave his fingers with the rings whenever he ribs a former player on a losing SB team. Marino gets teased about it on the pre-game show, etc.

Trent Dilfer was an average QB. Troy was above average, but not incredible. You could definitely say in his case Irving and Emmitt bailed HIS ass out on the O more than Brady's D has.

If rings technically qualify a player as great, then we're all f'ed 'cause Rob Johnson got one with Tampa Bay.


:shocked:
Thats exactly my point. The other 2 bozos which think Brady is better because he wins more just obviously dont know football. We are talking about each persons TALENT and what they do .... not whether the TEAM around them wins SB's ...

[DaBills]

Thats exactly my point. The other 2 bozos which think Brady is better because he wins more just obviously dont know football. We are talking about each persons TALENT and what they do .... not whether the TEAM around them wins SB's ...

Well, my thing on Brady is that his D helps out, but I'm not going that far to say he isn't doing anything by himself. I myself will take a better W-L record resulting in a SB win over gaudy numbers and no ring. Brady does make some pretty tight throws that only his guys can seem to get.

I would even go far enough to say that I think he throws his passes sometimes intentially low and away so that refs can't see they're incomplete and hopes for a call his way, but that's for another refs-love-the-Pats conspiracy thread. lol.

Back to QBs, I think the winning attititude comes from within that player, and that in turn flows to everyone else. They either have it or they don't. If they do, the team feeds off that, and winning becomes contagious. Right now, I think we're seeing an Indy team that believes it can score whenever the O touches the ball. But there are conditions beyond their control that affect championships.

Ultimately, the perception will be that if Manning doesn't win a SB, not that he can't win in general, but that he can't win the big one. It's funny, but in the case of Marino, or other great QBs that never won a championship, they're somehow looked at like failures. But in the Bills case, we went four consecutive times to the SB and failed, and I think because of that exposure, the team got the rep as losers, not any one player.

[daquixxers]

Thats my opinion too. People who dont know football that well will think Brady is better because of the rings - not understanding that his defense saves his ass a lot and his receivers catch poorly thrown balls. Oh well.

[illusionone]

So by your logic Antowain Smith (2x SB rings) is better than Barry Sanders (0 rings) and Trent Dilfer (1 ring) is better than Kelly and Marino (0 rings).

Point well taken...

How many Superbowl MVP's Does Manning have???

[illusionone]

Thats exactly my point. The other 2 bozos which think Brady is better because he wins more just obviously dont know football. We are talking about each persons TALENT and what they do .... not whether the TEAM around them wins SB's ...

I'm a bozo because i don't share the same opinion as you.......real mature

And please don't attack my football knowledge becouse you don't know a damn thing about me. It's convienent that that people on this post use the "team" as an excuse for Manning, but it's all Bledsoe's fault around here............very intresting.

Regardless of what Defenses both teams have or had...

Brady:
-has a better winning percentage
-Wins Period - his offense stats aren't huge but he wins games (that is the point isn't it? ( I would much rather have a 2 time SB MVP, rather than a guy who has thrown a bunch of TD's but can't win the pressure games)
-Wins in all weather conditions (Manning plays 50% of his plays in a dome)
-is more consistant in come from behind games
-has and is proven to play great under pressure situations (something that Manning has proven not to be)
-has played, won and has been named MVP in two superbowls
-has never lost a game in OT
-has never lost a play-off game

And as far as Manning being smarter than Brady, that is plain BS. Because manning makes 100 audibals in one game makes him smarter......I would love to see you back up that statement with facts that Manning is smarter...

Matter of fact, I would love to see you prove to me, with stats or fact that Manning is a better QB....I have gvien you tons of stats and facts that Brady is better, and all you can do is say "Brady had a better D" That is plain BS...... is that all you can hang your hat on....oh yeah Manning calls audibles too....

PS: Audibles don't make you great!!!!

[illusionone]

Thats my opinion too. People who dont know football that well will think Brady is better because of the rings - not understanding that his defense saves his ass a lot and his receivers catch poorly thrown balls. Oh well.


I don't know football...you come out and make a statement that his recievers catch poorly thrown balls....this statement shows you know nothing about Brady......He has to be one of the most acurate Qb's I have seen in a long time.....

I am done debating this with you, it's a waste of my time

[daquixxers]

There is no point in trying to inform you ... its a waste of time cause you dont get it. I guess myself and the rest of the country including the entire NFL (and the record of voters who voted for Manning) are wrong. Oh well.

P.S. - I will appologize for one thing. Calling you a "bozo." That was out of line and I appologize.

[daquixxers]

Brady:
-has a better winning percentage
-Wins Period - his offense stats aren't huge but he wins games (that is the point isn't it? ( I would much rather have a 2 time SB MVP, rather than a guy who has thrown a bunch of TD's but can't win the pressure games)
-Wins in all weather conditions (Manning plays 50% of his plays in a dome)
-is more consistant in come from behind games
-has and is proven to play great under pressure situations (something that Manning has proven not to be)
-has played, won and has been named MVP in two superbowls
-has never lost a game in OT
-has never lost a play-off game

PS: Audibles don't make you great!!!!- TEAM
- TEAM
- TEAM
- TEAM

Every single one of your points involve TEAM ... You know what a TEAM doesnt effect? You throwing 47 TD's and only 9 interceptions ... because the Indy defense cant affect that outcome.

TOM BRADY HIMSELF SAID HIS DEFENSE BAILED HIM OUT IN 2001, so your arguing with yourself!

The reason I called Manning smarter is because everyone in the NFL knows he is the smartest QB. Its just a given. Not only does he audible but his audibles WORK ... lmao .... seriously. He also calls his own plays. I would LOVE to see Tom Brady do that without Charlie Weiss ...

[CuseJetsFan83]

- TEAM
- TEAM
- TEAM
- TEAM

Every single one of your points involve TEAM ... You know what a TEAM doesnt effect? You throwing 47 TD's and only 9 interceptions ... because the Indy defense cant affect that outcome.

TOM BRADY HIMSELF SAID HIS DEFENSE BAILED HIM OUT IN 2001, so your arguing with yourself!

The reason I called Manning smarter is because everyone in the NFL knows he is the smartest QB. Its just a given. Not only does he audible but his audibles WORK ... lmao .... seriously. He also calls his own plays. I would LOVE to see Tom Brady do that without Charlie Weiss ...
^5 on that one............. as much as i think manning is a dumbass, he is one of the, if not THE smartest qb in the league..... only qb i can think of coming close would be rothliesberger's play this year but that is this year only.......

over the past 5-10 years manning is easily the best..........i wonder if big ben can continue his maturity.....

brady was a mediocre qb at michigan, he is STILL a mediocre qb, and the only reason he is playing is because drew got hurt, and got the shaft out....... ne is only good because of 3 reasons

A. defense
b. refs
c. ventieri

sure brady is playing good, but tell me if he had a horrible d if he would be playing that well...........

manning with a great d would be the closest to a team that we would have as the steelers of the 70's or even the niners of the 80's.........

[daquixxers]

^5 on that one............. as much as i think manning is a dumbass, he is one of the, if not THE smartest qb in the league..... only qb i can think of coming close would be rothliesberger's play this year but that is this year only.......

over the past 5-10 years manning is easily the best..........i wonder if big ben can continue his maturity.....

brady was a mediocre qb at michigan, he is STILL a mediocre qb, and the only reason he is playing is because drew got hurt, and got the shaft out....... ne is only good because of 3 reasons

A. defense
b. refs
c. ventieri

sure brady is playing good, but tell me if he had a horrible d if he would be playing that well...........

manning with a great d would be the closest to a team that we would have as the steelers of the 70's or even the niners of the 80's.........
I whole-heartidly agree ... look what happens when NE's defense does poorly ... they lose. Brady can NOT carry a team. The team carries Brady. This is NOT to say he is a bad QB ... he is top 7 in the league, but when the defense plays poorly Brady plays poorly (Bills last year, Miami this year, Pittsburgh this year) .... its just the way it is.

Yet - Peyton has to play with a God-Awful defense week after week.

[John Doe]

The Brady - Manning debate comes down to this: if they were to swap teams, who would come out on top? We will never know, but I find it hard to believe that Brady could get the same production and win as often as Manning does with the same supporting cast.

[daquixxers]

The Brady - Manning debate comes down to this: if they were to swap teams, who would come out on top? We will never know, but I find it hard to believe that Brady could get the same production and win as often as Manning does with the same supporting cast.
Same with me ... IMO if Peyton was on the Patriots team since 1998 and Brady on Indi since 1997 , Peyton would be wearing 3 or 4 SB rings and Tom Brady wouldnt have ANY ...

[John Doe]

P.S. - I will appologize for one thing. Calling you a "bozo." That was out of line and I appologize.

You might want to extend that apology to Dozer as well. He is one of the most respected guys here.

[daquixxers]

You might want to extend that apology to Dozer as well. He is one of the most respected guys here.I dont think I called him that - did I? I have known Dozer for years ...