A question for Tatonka, FTG and Cynical [Archive] - BillsZone.com

Ebenezer

01-03-2005, 11:35 AM

I'll field this since I'm in the same cliq as these guys...

I'd say for a 1st year as a starter, anything is possible. I would give him 1 year to get everything under his belt. I'd hope to see improvements along the way as well. If he isn't showing improvement in his second year, then I'd begin to ask questions. On this same token I hope he comes along faster but I am being realistic.

On the other hand, when we got Bledsoe, he wasn't a 2nd year QB coming into his first year starting. He was a veteran with a solid resume. Expectations should be higher for that case. Unfortunately, he failed to live up.
I don't care who answers but I would likes answers from the three amigos.

Tatonka

01-03-2005, 11:36 AM

I don't care who answers but I would likes answers from the three amigos.

darth is the fourth amigo.

Ebenezer

01-03-2005, 11:37 AM

darth is the fourth amigo.
fine....four amigos...:D

Iehoshua

01-03-2005, 11:39 AM

darth is the fourth amigo.

fine....four amigos...:D

:mex:

:biggrin:

Jayhawk

01-03-2005, 11:41 AM

I'm bored so I wanted to insert myself in this argument

Ebenezer

01-03-2005, 11:42 AM

I'm bored so I wanted to insert myself in this argument
around February I might just have to take my salary cap info and throw it in a hat and remake the page just to keep active.

Devin

01-03-2005, 12:30 PM

Personally Id give JP a year to get adjusted, byt he 2nd/3rd year we should have an idea about him.

mybills

01-03-2005, 12:44 PM

Am I :curse: invisible? I'll give him 16 games. Every newbie shows what he has in the first season. I didn't like Drews first season. I didn't like any of his. I can't wait till he's GONE!

Tatonka

01-03-2005, 12:49 PM

Am I :curse: invisible? I'll give him 16 games. Every newbie shows what he has in the first season. I didn't like Drews first season. I didn't like any of his. I can't wait till he's GONE!

your queen of the amigos!

Iehoshua

01-03-2005, 12:49 PM

your queen of the amigos!

My sentiments exactly!
:up:

mybills

01-03-2005, 12:51 PM

you're
:D

Tatonka

01-03-2005, 12:53 PM

you're
:D

:mad:

FTG

01-03-2005, 01:42 PM

a year. If he shows zero progress through an entire season we should be concerned.

Mr. Cynical

01-03-2005, 02:07 PM

JP gets ALOT more slack than Drew. Drew came in with 8-9 years of experience and I gave him 2 years before I thought he should have been cut (after the '03 season it was clear he was done IMO).

With a rookie however it is not purely a time limit decision. It's all about how he is progressing and if he shows "flashes" of greatness. If he truly looks like RJ after a year, then I say cut him. But it will all depend on the types of mistakes he makes. If they are correctable, e.g., bad decisions, then I'll give him more time. But if they are things like "clock problems", "feel problems", or "leadership problems"....he's gone. I don't want to waste another 3 years like we did with Drew and "hope" or "have faith" that things will turn around. The likelihood of a drastic change in those areas is far less than getting lucky the first time with a new QB.

As I've mentioned before, some QBs have "it", others don't. I think we'll know if JP has "it" by the end of next year IF he plays from Day 1. If he has to play backup and/or play half a season, then we have to see him in '07 to know anything. THAT is why I am so adamant about declaring him the starter and committing to what TD gave up a #1, #2 and #5 for. IMO, it's s*** or get of the pot time w/ JP.

And if he is a bust, then most certainly TD should be shown the door as well. Making 2 major mistakes in a row at arguably the most important position on the team, combined with the GW debaucle, is grounds for firing IMO.

Ebenezer

01-03-2005, 02:24 PM

JP gets ALOT more slack than Drew. Drew came in with 8-9 years of experience and I gave him 2 years before I thought he should have been cut (after the '03 season it was clear he was done IMO).

OK...I'll make the 4 amigos a deal...

for one year (seems to be the consensus) from the day JP starts:

If JP flounders you can't criticize him about anything (not even the color of his cleetes), no *****ing, griping, complaining or saying how you are happy to be losing with him rather than see DB play. And that includes "rookie excuses".

If JP succeeds I will start a thread every week on how I was wrong to want DB to be the starter in 2005 because I thought it was the best option to make the playoffs.

Deal?

Iehoshua

01-03-2005, 02:27 PM

OK...I'll make the 4 amigos a deal...

for one year (seems to be the consensus) from the day JP starts:

If JP flounders you can't criticize him about anything (not even the color of his cleetes), no *****ing, griping, complaining or saying how you are happy to be losing with him rather than see DB play. And that includes "rookie excuses".

If JP succeeds I will start a thread every week on how I was wrong to want DB to be the starter in 2005 because I thought it was the best option to make the playoffs.

Deal?

Why have a message board if we 'can't criticize' bad elements of a team? I want J.P. to start because I think he's the best option to make the playoffs. If he turns out to be a bust, I'll want him gone. Why is it deemed wrong to root against a player if they are bad? Why should I be obligated to stick with rooting for a failure, because you did? :confused:

Bill Brasky

01-03-2005, 02:28 PM

Once he is the starter and actually starts a game - How long of a window does JP Losman get before you thinks complaints about his game are justified?

I'll take the New York City train of thought... 3 games... 4 if he's lucky.

Iehoshua

01-03-2005, 02:29 PM

I'll take the New York City train of thought... 3 games... 4 if he's lucky.
:rofl:

Ebenezer

01-03-2005, 02:30 PM

If he truly looks like RJ after a year, then I say cut him. .

Cut a 1st rounder after a year of play?? Now there's patience.

THAT is why I am so adamant about declaring him the starter and committing to what TD gave up a #1, #2 and #5 for.

For the 100th time we did not give up a #1, #2 and #5 for Losman. You can look at it two ways. We gave up a #1 and #5 to move the #2 into the first round or we gave up a #2 and a #5 to draft our #1 a year earlier. Stop exaggerating the cost of the pick. And please show me who we could have picked with the 5th that would have helped the team...5th - 7th are often throwaways.

And if he is a bust, then most certainly TD should be shown the door as well. Making 2 major mistakes in a row at arguably the most important position on the team, combined with the GW debaucle, is grounds for firing IMO.

If after the first contract JP is a bust and the team still has not made the playoffs I agree.

justasportsfan

01-03-2005, 02:31 PM

can I post here Eb?

Ebenezer

01-03-2005, 02:31 PM

Why have a message board if we 'can't criticize' bad elements of a team? I want J.P. to start because I think he's the best option to make the playoffs. If he turns out to be a bust, I'll want him gone. Why is it deemed wrong to root against a player if they are bad? Why should I be obligated to stick with rooting for a failure, because you did? :confused:
you missed the point entirely...the same anti-Drew screamers will be the first ones to scream for JP's head...never fails.

Ebenezer

01-03-2005, 02:33 PM

can I post here Eb?
be my guest...I said I don't care who replies...

Mr. Cynical

01-03-2005, 02:35 PM

OK...I'll make the 4 amigos a deal...

for one year (seems to be the consensus) from the day JP starts:

If JP flounders you can't criticize him about anything (not even the color of his cleetes), no *****ing, griping, complaining or saying how you are happy to be losing with him rather than see DB play. And that includes "rookie excuses".

If JP succeeds I will start a thread every week on how I was wrong to want DB to be the starter in 2005 because I thought it was the best option to make the playoffs.

Deal?I think we need to refine/define some terms in the fine print first before I sign. :;

What constitutes "flounders"? I reserve the right to critique JP for playing like crap if it is not "rookie related". Example: If he makes a bad throw into coverage, then ok, I won't *****. It is a rookie mistake to throw into areas where in college it may have worked but now given the speed of the NFL it doesn't. But if he gets sacked for the 20th time because he held the ball too long, I'll ***** like mad.
What consitutes "succeeds"? This is to protect you as much as us. What do you consider a success?

Mr. Cynical

01-03-2005, 02:35 PM

you missed the point entirely...the same anti-Drew screamers will be the first ones to scream for JP's head...never fails.
This is a bit inflammatory, no? I thought we were going to try to put all that behind us. :idunno:

justasportsfan

01-03-2005, 02:41 PM

you missed the point entirely...the same anti-Drew screamers will be the first ones to scream for JP's head...never fails.Nope, they/we will scream for TD's head for insisting on keeping an over the hill QB and giving up too much should JP busts.

We didn't know what we had in Willis until we started him especially since he was replacing Henry who's been the best player on this team the last 2 yrars.

JP isn't replacing the best player on this team. Based on Drew's performance, he isn't worth what we're paying him.

Iehoshua

01-03-2005, 02:41 PM

you missed the point entirely...the same anti-Drew screamers will be the first ones to scream for JP's head...never fails.

I did get the point but I don't see why 'screaming' for someone's head who sucks is so evil. Now there is a difference with a premature screaming, I will give you that. If he throws a pick and we are calling for the guillotine immediately then there is an issue. I'll speak for myself when I say I didn't "scream for Drew's head" until late '03, where it became clear to me Bledsoe didn't have it. That situation, however, wasn't a young QB, it was a veteran. Take the other Drew, Brees. San Diego was ready to cash him in after 3 season of him being there, only 2 seasons as starter. Again, he is still younger, not a seasoned Vet by any means. Now he's actually playing well. Bledsoe's had 3 seasons of failure here. I don't see why wanting him gone is detrimental to our team.

Ebenezer

01-03-2005, 02:43 PM

This is a bit inflammatory, no? I thought we were going to try to put all that behind us. :idunno:
it isn't inflammatory... Didn't you say above that if he looks like RJ cut him after a year?? Even RJ had qualities that could be refined it was just that RJ was dummer than a box of rocks, didn't look particularly motivated and doesn't appear to have the talent JP has...RJ was a 4th rounder for a reason...

Mr. Cynical

01-03-2005, 02:45 PM

Cut a 1st rounder after a year of play?? Now there's patience. Way to skip over the rationale. There's wisecrack #2. Keep it up. You'll get your flame war soon enough. :shakeno:

If after the first contract JP is a bust and the team still has not made the playoffs I agree.Ok, so that means you are willing to wait 8 years (in total) to decide on TD?

Iehoshua

01-03-2005, 02:46 PM

Nope, they/we
Amigo!
:mex:

Mr. Cynical

01-03-2005, 02:48 PM

it isn't inflammatory... Didn't you say above that if he looks like RJ cut him after a year?? Even RJ had qualities that could be refined it was just that RJ was dummer than a box of rocks, didn't look particularly motivated and doesn't appear to have the talent JP has...RJ was a 4th rounder for a reason...
You just proved my point. All things that would warrant JP's cutting IMHO. That's the rationale. That's not lack of patience. That's being proactive.

Iehoshua

01-03-2005, 02:49 PM

I'll field this since I'm in the same cliq as these guys...

I'd say for a 1st year as a starter, anything is possible. I would give him 1 year to get everything under his belt. I'd hope to see improvements along the way as well. If he isn't showing improvement in his second year, then I'd begin to ask questions. On this same token I hope he comes along faster but I am being realistic.

On the other hand, when we got Bledsoe, he wasn't a 2nd year QB coming into his first year starting. He was a veteran with a solid resume. Expectations should be higher for that case. Unfortunately, he failed to live up.

To clarify if this was misinterpreted... I stated to give JP a year to get everything under his belt, not a year to become premier QB #1. My take is to scrutinize his 2nd year and if improvements are nonexistent, then I would begin to question him, not necessarily call for his head (although SD did with Brees after his 2nd year starting).

Iehoshua

01-03-2005, 02:52 PM

The bottom line is this, Eb... People are going to scrutinize and criticize the QB position wherever it may be. It won't matter if it's a rookie or 12 year Vet. If he underachieves, there will always be those 'calling for his head.' There's no pact or deal that can be made to eliminate this. It's part of any fanbase. You have to take the things you like and just let the things you dislike roll of your back.

FTG

01-03-2005, 02:53 PM

you missed the point entirely...the same anti-Drew screamers will be the first ones to scream for JP's head...never fails.

You are just wrong. You just can't seem to get it through your head. I can accept mistakes out of a young kid that is playing in the NFL for the first time and learning from his mistakes. I can't accept that from a guys whos been doing it for 10 years and still has not learned. Just like I expect more from my 7yr old than I do my 2 yr old.

Iehoshua

01-03-2005, 02:56 PM

You are just wrong. You just can't seem to get it through your head. I can accept mistakes out of a young kid that is playing in the NFL for the first time and learning from his mistakes. I can't accept that from a guys whos been doing it for 10 years and still has not learned. Just like I expect more from my 7yr old than I do my 2 yr old.

Well said. Again, it's not wrong to correct the two year old if he/she does something bad is it? Meaning if J.P. throws a pick like he did in NE, it's gonna be "DAMMIT JP WTF ARE YOU THINKING!!!?!" Then again its not like we disown him, but then again you don't disown your child under any circumstances IMO, oh I've gone crosseyed... Bad analogy...
:insane:

Ebenezer

01-03-2005, 02:56 PM

I think we need to refine/define some terms in the fine print first before I sign. :;

What constitutes "flounders"? I reserve the right to critique JP for playing like crap if it is not "rookie related". Example: If he makes a bad throw into coverage, then ok, I won't *****. It is a rookie mistake to throw into areas where in college it may have worked but now given the speed of the NFL it doesn't. But if he gets sacked for the 20th time because he held the ball too long, I'll ***** like mad.
What consitutes "succeeds"? This is to protect you as much as us. What do you consider a success?

Well, the biggest thing I hear is how, at the least, he can do what Drew does. I think DB is the "Mendoza" line.

In 2004 Drew had a 57% completion rate; ~1 pick per game; ~2 sacks per game.

If JP has less than 55% completion rate, 2 picks per game (regardless him throwing into coverage or the WR tipping the ball) and at least 3 sacks per game (regardless him holding the ball or the OL) you get to *****. Success is measured the other way...If JP has more than a 60% completion rate, <1 pick and <2 sacks per game then I start the thread.

2 caveats for both of us: the team has to maintain a .500 record (seems to be DB's career record) and if DB starts the whole 2005 season the deal is off.

Ebenezer

01-03-2005, 03:00 PM

You are just wrong. You just can't seem to get it through your head. I can accept mistakes out of a young kid that is playing in the NFL for the first time and learning from his mistakes. I can't accept that from a guys whos been doing it for 10 years and still has not learned. Just like I expect more from my 7yr old than I do my 2 yr old.
I'm wrong?? Cynical wants to cut a 1st rounder after a year of playing if he resembles RJ...Hell, not to many 1st year QBs look like Marino or Kelly. Under his criteria he would cut Eli Manning.

Ebenezer

01-03-2005, 03:03 PM

Way to skip over the rationale. There's wisecrack #2. Keep it up. You'll get your flame war soon enough. :shakeno:

Ok, so that means you are willing to wait 8 years (in total) to decide on TD?
points moot...as Prez he has done a very good job...as a capologist he has done an excellent job...as a GM he has done a good job...with only one more year on the deal he will be brought back as Prez (he hasn't done anything to lose that job)...if forced to give up the GM title it will only go to an insider anyway. Personally, I could care less if he were GM. The FO appears to work together quiet well whether he or Modrak actually carries the GM title.

FTG

01-03-2005, 03:03 PM

I'm wrong?? Cynical wants to cut a 1st rounder after a year of playing if he resembles RJ...Hell, not to many 1st year QBs look like Marino or Kelly. Under his criteria he would cut Eli Manning.

Well your wrong about me.

I expect some stupid decisions from Losman because he's never been there before. Where I will critisize JP if he continued to make the same mistake over and over and over.

Mr. Cynical

01-03-2005, 03:07 PM

I'm wrong?? Cynical wants to cut a 1st rounder after a year of playing if he resembles RJ...Hell, not to many 1st year QBs look like Marino or Kelly. Under his criteria he would cut Eli Manning.
You have COMPLETELY missed my point 1000%. I would not cut Eli using my criteria. Did he start from day 1? NO. Did he have a year to be around the system like JP? NO. :cynic:

Mr. Cynical

01-03-2005, 03:10 PM

points moot...as Prez he has done a very good job...as a capologist he has done an excellent job...as a GM he has done a good job...with only one more year on the deal he will be brought back as Prez (he hasn't done anything to lose that job)...if forced to give up the GM title it will only go to an insider anyway. Personally, I could care less if he were GM. The FO appears to work together quiet well whether he or Modrak actually carries the GM title.
Ok, so if we don't make the playoffs in 8 years (total), who do you fire? Or don't you fire anyone?

Ebenezer

01-03-2005, 03:12 PM

You have COMPLETELY missed my point 1000%. I would not cut Eli using my criteria. Did he start from day 1? NO. Did he have a year to be around the system like JP? NO. :cynic:
A year under the system or not...a 1st round QB who starts a full season gets more time...

Manning was a poor example...my bad. Would you cut Manning (with a year on the bench) if he played the way he did for an entire season?

justasportsfan

01-03-2005, 03:19 PM

Ebenezer

01-03-2005, 03:20 PM

Ok, so if we don't make the playoffs in 8 years (total), who do you fire? Or don't you fire anyone?

No, you missed my point...yes, with no playoffs TD would be gone after 8 years TD would be gone as GM...like I said, he could give up the GM position tomorrow...still can't say as Prez...that is a position that covers lots of things...I never wanted him to have both titles but I don't make those decisions.

Ebenezer

01-03-2005, 03:22 PM

EB, no one knows what JP can do just like we didn't know what Willis could do. How did Willis turn out?

You keep saying if JP busts, but what if he doesn't. If there's one thing we know, is that Drew is over the hill and doesn't have the capability to lead this team to a sb. Care to disagree?

I didn't say he would bust...find me that quote and I will show you were I was drinking...I've said that the team as a whole needs to learn to win and that will make the transition over to JP easier. I also said this team has to make the playoffs in 2005 and that DB is the better option to get there. If you don't want to make the playoffs in 2005 then you can have JP start. Evidence to the contrary with Big Ben I don't think JP can lead us to the playoffs in 2005. That is my goal.

Mr. Cynical

01-03-2005, 03:22 PM

A year under the system or not...a 1st round QB who starts a full season gets more time...

Manning was a poor example...my bad. Would you cut Manning (with a year on the bench) if he played the way he did for an entire season?
Did you watch the way he played yesterday against Dallas? Again, you are missing my point. Eli showed poise and alot of improvement even in a short time span. That's what I'll be looking for from JP, as long as he gets the entire year. If not, then you can't make any real judgements.

You seem to want to paint me as impatient. I already said I was willing to miss the playoffs again if it meant building the team for longer term success. That is not being impatient. However, you have to consider we have missed the playoffs 4 years in a row and have been the victim of 2 very bad decisions (GW and DB), which IMO have been the primary reason for not making the playoffs. Hence, I will not give as much slack as I would have if this were '02 or '03. Time is running out and some hard decisions need to be made. Otherwise we'll have to go through another rebuilding process and that will take a few more years of non-contention....again.

justasportsfan

01-03-2005, 03:24 PM

I didn't say he would bust...find me that quote and I will show you were I was drinking...I've said that the team as a whole needs to learn to win and that will make the transition over to JP easier. I also said this team has to make the playoffs in 2005 and that DB is the better option to get there. If you don't want to make the playoffs in 2005 then you can have JP start. Evidence to the contrary with Big Ben I don't think JP can lead us to the playoffs in 2005. That is my goal.How is Drew a better option when we have never even tried JP?

Did you say at the start of the year that Willis was a better option than Henry?

You don't "think" JP can lead, does that mean you're not sure?

I am SURE Drew isn't going to lead us to a playoffs. I have have 3 years to back me up.

FTG

01-03-2005, 03:28 PM

I didn't say he would bust...find me that quote and I will show you were I was drinking...
so you don't like it when people put words in your mouth either? Good to know. Now maybe you'll stop doing it to others

Mr. Cynical

01-03-2005, 03:30 PM

How is Drew a better option when we have never even tried JP?

Did you say at the start of the year that Willis was a better option than Henry?

You don't "think" JP can lead, does that mean you're not sure?

I am SURE Drew isn't going to lead us to a playoffs. I have have 3 years to back me up.
Exactly.

DaBills

01-03-2005, 03:32 PM

.. drew is the antichrist sent here to destroy the buffalo bills and i just point it out. i fight the good fight in the name of the bills!

ROTFL. :funny:

C'mon, that's almost as funny as the 'Dyke' line in that GHost post.

Mr. Cynical

01-03-2005, 03:36 PM

DaBills - you forgot to add Todd Collins to your sig before Flutie. Yet another classic Bills QB.

Ebenezer

01-03-2005, 03:36 PM

You seem to want to paint me as impatient. I already said I was willing to miss the playoffs again if it meant building the team for longer term success. That is not being impatient. However, you have to consider we have missed the playoffs 4 years in a row ...

that is just it...folks, myself included, want the playoffs now...I am pissed at Clements for not knocking the ball down in week 1...the defense for not holding the lead against the Jets...the team for not showing up against the Raiders or the Steelers...any of those 4 games and this team is in the playoffs...

The defense is getting older and players are coming to the end of their contracts...there is no depth at LB...there are no CBs signed for the 2006 season...by the time you wait for JP the defense might need rebuilding...you miss the playoffs in 2005 and you might have to wait 2 more years for the defense even in JP is the second coming...does that make me more impatient than you?? Apparently. That is why I am willing to have DB start the 2005 season...if they are not at least 4-2 by game 6 then you pull the plug and turn it over to JP to get his seasoning.

justasportsfan

01-03-2005, 03:40 PM

that is just it...folks, myself included, want the playoffs now...I am pissed at Clements for not knocking the ball down in week 1...the defense for not holding the lead against the Jets...the team for not showing up against the Raiders or the Steelers...any of those 4 games and this team is in the playoffs...

The defense is getting older and players are coming to the end of their contracts...there is no depth at LB...there are no CBs signed for the 2006 season...by the time you wait for JP the defense might need rebuilding...you miss the playoffs in 2005 and you might have to wait 2 more years for the defense even in JP is the second coming...does that make me more impatient than you?? Apparently. That is why I am willing to have DB start the 2005 season...if they are not at least 4-2 by game 6 then you pull the plug and turn it over to JP to get his seasoning.you are pissed off by the jags game that came back to bite us in the butt and yet you are willing to start Drew again where you and I know he'll be mediocre at best and maybe even suck that if we lose any game early next year because of it, it could come back and bite us in the butt again?

When will you guys ever learn?

Mr. Cynical

01-03-2005, 03:44 PM

that is just it...folks, myself included, want the playoffs [b]now/[b]...I am pissed at Clements for not knocking the ball down in week 1...the defense for not holding the lead against the Jets...the team for not showing up against the Raiders or the Steelers...any of those 4 games and this team is in the playoffs...

The defense is getting older and players are coming to the end of their contracts...there is no depth at LB...there are no CBs signed for the 2006 season...by the time you wait for JP the defense might need rebuilding...you miss the playoffs in 2005 and you might have to wait 2 more years for the defense even in JP is the second coming...does that make me more impatient than you?? Apparently. That is why I am willing to have DB start the 2005 season...if they are not at least 4-2 by game 6 then you pull the plug and turn it over to JP to get his seasoning.
There are 2 problem with this logic:

Drew. Show me any evidence that he can rise up big when the team needs him and I'll agree he should start. But that's just it - you can't. If you start him next year you are only prolonging the inevitable, and will ultimately make it an even longer wait to get to the playoffs.
How do you know what JP can do after he's had another set of camps, preseason and a more seasoned oline under McNally? You don't. Again you are *assuming* he will not give us the chance to make the playoffs but with Drew we don't have to assume. We've seen all he has to offer and it isn't enough.
Bottom line is that we tried for 3 years with Drew and it didn't happen (for whatever reasons you want to list). He is expensive. He is not a leader. He did not get it done. Period.

JP may or may not do it next year, but at least there's an X factor that could pay off in spades. I certainly hope so given the price we paid for him (however you want to price it, it was not cheap). TD went after him as our franchise QB, plain and simple. Time to see if the gamble was worth it.

Ebenezer

01-03-2005, 03:51 PM

There are 2 problem with this logic:

Drew. Show me any evidence that he can rise up big when the team needs him and I'll agree he should start. But that's just it - you can't. If you start him next year you are only prolonging the inevitable, and will ultimately make it an even longer wait to get to the playoffs.
How do you know what JP can do after he's had another set of camps, preseason and a more seasoned oline under McNally? You don't. Again you are *assuming* he will not give us the chance to make the playoffs but with Drew we don't have to assume. We've seen all he has to offer and it isn't enough.
Bottom line is that we tried for 3 years with Drew and it didn't happen (for whatever reasons you want to list). He is expensive. He is not a leader. He did not get it done. Period.

JP may or may not do it next year, but at least there's an X factor that could pay off in spades. I certainly hope so given the price we paid for him (however you want to price it, it was not cheap). TD went after him as our franchise QB, plain and simple. Time to see if the gamble was worth it.
You insist there is no proof that DB can lead this team...there is no proof that JP can even play in this league. Based on the final 8 games of this season, I am more willing to give DB the first 6 games next year than to start JP.

DaBills

01-03-2005, 04:05 PM

Ok, I want to be the court jester and join in. 4 amigos, a queen and a jester. Yeah.

Tough question — how long we give him vs. how long it would actually take. It's a bridge the Bills have to cross at some point. But I say you have to give him two years minimum — but he has to show something in the first year and definitely by 1 1/2 years, some apptitude that he's gonna' develop positively. Barring some lightening bolt that hits turns him into a football god sooner of course. Besides, how long did AVP, RJ, DF all get?

Going with Drew means up and down play. (Not bashing, but being objective for the purpose of this thread.) Going with JP means you throw away the investment of time that's been spent in Drew and the OL to this point. Two years gone basically, unless you look at it like time well spent developing WM, Reed and Co.

The first year he gets beat up reading defenses and the losses. It's gonna' happen. WM may help to take the sting out of that by drawing the pressure. JP would have a decent WR corp as well. Can he also develop a pass-catch combo with Moulds that has not happened with Drew as of late? Remains to be seen. But, he also needs a dependable go-to guy to check off to in blitz situations. (Drew doesn't have that now either like a Larry Centers was.)

Staying with Drew means one more year of the same, until he shows different, and I think THAT has a bigger impact on the WR corps than anything. Confidence will be shaken if these guys are not getting the ball consistantly. They can expect to develop with a rook and his mistakes – I think they'll expect more from a vet though.

Bigger picture question though: are we maybe getting too spoiled after seeing Rothlesburger's success this year? Favre didn't exactly light it up his first year. Look at Carr and Harrington. They got hammered their first seasons. Carr I think took over for most sacks in a season, even beating Drew and Randall Cunningham if I'm not wrong.

I think the committment you make to a #1 like Vick or a top-5 pick is different that the one you make to a late 1st-rounder and later pick. It has to be. When the Giants got Manning after SD's #1, you have to play him because of all you went through to get him. Why would he sit on the bench after all the hype. Likewise with a Vick.

— And on a side note, WTF, does SD just not have good luck with the #1 pick and QB's or what? Brees finally looks to be the one, but after all their previous troubles. Talk about snakebit.

Anyway, later round guys don't neccessarily have that pressure attached to them calling for them to start. We could sit JP this year '04 because we had Drew. Giants HAD to start Manning at some point. Warner's slump gave them the excuse.

As for surrounding them with talent, every case is different. Carr got the luck of the draw since they basically stocked their team with expansion castaway talent. That he survived is a miracle. Vet Boscelli at LT was out after how just long? There goes your protection on the blindside, critical for a right-hand QB.

Harrington had really no one to throw to until this year. Jury's still out though. But the team overall doesn;t have enough pieces to make him the star they expect.