Did Nate Clements cost the Bills the playoffs in 2004?

[BAM]

After participating in this thread:

http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?t=66543&page=1&pp=20

I just wanted to get some more opinions here. IMO you cannot possibly pinpoint one play in an entire 16 game season that could be solely responsible for costing a team a trip to the playoffs.

[The Natrix]

No. This poll is stupid! Anyone who votes yes needs to be time warped back to kindergarden gym class.

[Dr. Lecter]

No he did not. A season of difficulties can not be blamed on one player (even Drew, sorry guys) or on one play.

[The King]

No he didnt. BUT..... he cost the team the Jacksonville game. Which in turn cost us the playoffs. A probowl corner has to make that play end of story. Other things factor in but nate cost us that game.

[BAM]

No he didnt. BUT..... he cost the team the Jacksonville game. Which in turn cost us the playoffs. A probowl corner has to make that play end of story. Other things factor in but nate cost us that game.

So the defenders on the last play of the game (which was also a first down) didn't cost us anything? Right...

I don't blame it on any of them. Multiple players contributed to that loss... Moulds, DB, Villarial, Clements, Wire, McGee

[Ebenezer]

So the defenders on the last play of the game (which was also a first down) didn't cost us anything? Right...

I don't blame it on any of them. Multiple players contributed to that loss... Moulds, DB, Villarial, Clements, Wire, McGee
again, if NC knocks the ball down that last play never happens.

[Philagape]

In the very strictest, literal definition of the phrase, yes he did. If he had knocked that ball down, we would have made the playoffs. That's not an opinion, it's a fact. It cannot be denied on a factual basis.
However, he clearly was not the team's biggest problem, and there were several other mistakes by others -- individually and cumulative -- that, literally, cost us the playoffs. If polls were posted about those plays too, I also would vote yes.

[Iehoshua]

No he didnt. BUT..... he cost the team the Jacksonville game. Which in turn cost us the playoffs. A probowl corner has to make that play end of story. Other things factor in but nate cost us that game.
This argument could go on to almost infinite proportions. So-and-so drops a pass so they cost us 1 game, which costs us the playoffs. Bozo threw too many picks... Lead-feet fumbled at the wrong time.... Crank Case missed a tackle... Ringworm tripped on his own feet. Fill in the real names for yourself. The only reason this argument even gets off the drawing board is for the fact we were 1 win away from the playoffs, where we'd have been defeated anyway even if we made it in (you can argue this too but I'll just laugh)... If you want to blame Nate and it makes you sleep better at night since you are still wrapped up in your admiration for departed players, then be my guest.

[BAM]

again, if NC knocks the ball down that last play never happens.

Again.. if McGee makes that interception, neither happens. Way too many IF's. You could IF your way all the way back to the opening kickoff IF you wanted to... :funny:

[The King]

So the defenders on the last play of the game (which was also a first down) didn't cost us anything? Right...

I don't blame it on any of them. Multiple players contributed to that loss... Moulds, DB, Villarial, Clements, Wire, McGee


Well that play doesnt even happen if Nate did his job. But in fairness Wire shouldnt have even been on the field. So I dont hold Wire or McGee to the same standards as Clements.

Nates mistake was a mental mistake, trying to pick a ball off when it didnt need to be. All other 'if's' were the players just not being capable.

[Philagape]

I give an analogy:
Say a politician wins an election by one vote. I voted for him. Therefore, I gave him the election. Rhetorically, it may be self-serving to say so, and every other person who voted for him deserves as much credit, but on a purely literal, factual basis, it is true. If I had not voted for him, he would not have won.

[OpIv37]

I think Troy Vincent cost us the playoffs when he injured JP Losman in pre-season. Otherwise, Bledsoe would have been benched after the Baltimore game and we would have won the Super Bowl.

[Jan Reimers]

Yeah, Clements cost us the season. . . as did Bledsoe, Lindell, Henry, every guy who comitted a drive-killing penalty on offense or a drive-sustaining penalty on defense, and anyone that blew a play, dropped a pass, fumbled the ball, or missed an assignment at a crucial time.

There is more than enough blame to go around a couple of times.

[Iehoshua]

I think Troy Vincent cost us the playoffs when he injured JP Losman in pre-season. Otherwise, Bledsoe would have been benched after the Baltimore game and we would have won the Super Bowl.
:bf1:

:bow:

:hail:

You have hereby been deputized by the JPD! Wear your badge proud!

http://www.teamtakeo.com/jpd.gif

[ICE74129]

I don't think it is stupid, he is just getting a take on something. One could say it set the tone for the year.

I say no. Bledsoe and this offensive line did.

[Philagape]

Yeah, Clements cost us the season. . . as did Bledsoe, Lindell, Henry, every guy who comitted a drive-killing penalty on offense or a drive-sustaining penalty on defense, and anyone that blew a play, dropped a pass, fumbled the ball, or missed an assignment at a crucial time.

There is more than enough blame to go around a couple of times.

Exactly. The 4th-down fiasco was just one of many season-killing blunders.

[TedMock]

Absolutely not. It is true that if Clements knocks that ball down, the game is over. However, an adequate pass rush on that same play would've ended the game as well because Leftwich would not have been able to step into the throw. What about Reese being "out-manned" for the final TD? How about losing the following week to Oakland by 3? or the Jets by two? What about Henry falling down on what would've been the "go-ahead" score against NE? Bledsoe's 4 picks at Baltimore? Moulds dropping two in the endzone in a game we lose by 14 points?

Bottom line is that no one person can cost the game, let alone the season. There were more bonehead plays than just Clements' that sunny September day.

[BAM]

:clap:

Glad to see I am apparently not alone in my thinking here.

[Philagape]

Absolutely not. It is true that if Clements knocks that ball down, the game is over. However, an adequate pass rush on that same play would've ended the game as well because Leftwich would not have been able to step into the throw. What about Reese being "out-manned" for the final TD? How about losing the following week to Oakland by 3? or the Jets by two? What about Henry falling down on what would've been the "go-ahead" score against NE? Bledsoe's 4 picks at Baltimore? Moulds dropping two in the endzone in a game we lose by 14 points?

Bottom line is that no one person can cost the game, let alone the season. There were more bonehead plays than just Clements' that sunny September day.

Actually, your post says the opposite. One person can cost us a game, and that can happen many times, even on the same play. If we went, say, 5-11, it would be a different story. But we missed out by the smallest margin, and when that happens, each one of many plays can be blamed. Nate's was one of them.

[Typ0]

again, if NC knocks the ball down that last play never happens.

again, if our offense scores more than ten pathetic points the last play never happens. You are totally illogical eb. You are completely ignoring our offenses inability to put the game away against a team that struggled that day and put the onus of the loss on the defense and one play. I find it quite funny that you call yourself a scientist and somehow can rationalize this type of thinking. You cannot expect to win in the NFL scoring 10 points. Even on our run at the end of the season the defense and special teams did a great deal of scoring.

How about these what if?

What if our kicker didn't suck so bad we could have taken a shot at a 50 yard field goal to gurantee at least a tie instead of punting to JAX and give them a shot at the win?

What if, on 3rd and 2 on JAX 25 Villarial doesn't take a holding that backs us up 10 yards?

What if, on 3rd and goal at JAX 1 our veteran statue manages to score a TD instead of taking a 6 yard sack?

What if, our veteran QB didn't fumble on the 50 leading up to a JAX field goal?

Face it EB...you have tunnel vision.

[TedMock]

Actually, your post says the opposite. One person can cost us a game, and that can happen many times, even on the same play. If we went, say, 5-11, it would be a different story. But we missed out by the smallest margin, and when that happens, each one of many plays can be blamed. Nate's was one of them.

Nate's play was one of many poor plays. That play/player alone did not cost the game. If there are several mistakes on one play, or several mistakes throughout the game, one person cannot be blamed. I don't believe my post was saying the opposite. I was pointing out that there are several mistakes made during a game (even on the same play), and that one single play cannot be held accountable for all the other mistakes. It's a team sport played for 60 minutes. A loss is usually a culmination of many plays not being executed properly. Each mistake may be made individually, but it's the culmination of mistakes that leads to a loss.

[Philagape]

Nate's play was one of many poor plays. That play/player alone did not cost the game. If there are several mistakes on one play, or several mistakes throughout the game, one person cannot be blamed. I don't believe my post was saying the opposite. I was pointing out that there are several mistakes made during a game (even on the same play), and that one single play cannot be held accountable for all the other mistakes. It's a team sport played for 60 minutes. A loss is usually a culmination of many plays not being executed properly. Each mistake may be made individually, but it's the culmination of mistakes that leads to a loss.

But if any ONE of those mistakes goes the other way, the outcome is changed; therefore THAT play can be held accountable -- not for the other mistakes, only for its own, but that's enough to change the outcome. There may be several plays to choose from that fit that description, but you only have to choose one. That's the way it is in a close game.

[Voltron]

The whole "if this happened" and "if that happened" is so stupid ... There is a reason why they say hind sight is 20/20.


If Ifs and buts were candy and nuts we would all have a merry christmas :rolleyes:

[jamze132]

After immediately seeing this thread I voted yes. Then I reconsidered and here I am with my point of view. Who's to say that we would have got on that wiining streak if we didn't start 0-4?

[Bill Brasky]

After participating in this thread:

http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?t=66543&page=1&pp=20

I just wanted to get some more opinions here. IMO you cannot possibly pinpoint one play in an entire 16 game season that could be solely responsible for costing a team a trip to the playoffs.

When in doubt... blame Bledsoe. Even this coming season, I'm going to blame everything on DB. It's all his fault.

[Forward_Lateral]

I voted yes by mistake. Oh well.

It was a stupid play, and helped cost us a loss vs the Jags, but there are a lot of other things that went wrong, that if they went right, we'd be in the playoffs. Not just, Nate's mistake, or Drew's mistakes, etc, etc.

[TedMock]

But if any ONE of those mistakes goes the other way, the outcome is changed; therefore THAT play can be held accountable -- not for the other mistakes, only for its own, but that's enough to change the outcome. There may be several plays to choose from that fit that description, but you only have to choose one. That's the way it is in a close game.

Okay, now I understand what you're saying, and it makes sense. I don't necessarily agree with you, but I do see what you're saying. It's a never-ending cycle from the first snap. That play did not change the outcome of the game, but it put Jacksonville in an easier situation. It was another play that actually resulted in a score.

[Voltron]

If you really want to make your head explode think of this.

Some people theorize that there are an infinite number of dimensions and that for every choice you make there is another you in another dimension choosing a different choice. :geek:

So in another dimension the Bills won 4 Super Bowls in a row :D

[Devin]

You have to be kidding, what spastic in their right mind........

The Bills cost us the season.

[TedMock]

So in another dimension the Bills won 4 Super Bowls in a row :D

It was awesome. Those were four of the best parties I'd ever been to. I remember streaking down Elmwood in drunken celebration.

[Philagape]

Okay, now I understand what you're saying, and it makes sense. I don't necessarily agree with you, but I do see what you're saying. It's a never-ending cycle from the first snap. That play did not change the outcome of the game, but it put Jacksonville in an easier situation. It was another play that actually resulted in a score.

If Nate had knocked the ball down, the Jags' drive ends and the game is over. I think people single that play out because it's pretty extraordinary to complete a 40-yard pass on 4th down, and it was an easy play to prevent if it had been played properly.

[Mr. Cynical]

As I posted in the other thread, the logic is completely flawed. It is already a stretch to blame one player for one play costing the team a single game (Wide Right anyone?), let alone the outcome of the entire season.

It has been posted by alot of other people already but you can play an infinite game of "what if". Ok...what if they had gone 15-1, and in some bizarro world scenario they needed 16-0 to make the playoffs and the one game they lost was Jax, then MAYBE you have a shred of a point. However, even then you can point to multiple plays in that game that could have prevented them from being in that position in the first place, e.g., scoring more than 10 ***** points. There is a domino effect from play to play and game to game that nobody can calculate. Period.

And let's not forget that all they had to do was win the Pitt game and THEY WERE IN. So their destiny was in their own hands.

If you are trying to deflect blame from Drew by putting it on Nate, fine. But even I'm not going to put the entire season on Drew. I have placed a ton of blame on him for the Bills' woes and I stand by that 100%. We had a #2 D and #1 ST and he did nothing to stand out and move the team forward. He was not the ONLY problem, but definitely the BIGGEST. Hence he is gone.

Peter King's article is a perfect summation of the situation imo (Phil posted this last week).

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/writers/peter_king/02/20/mmqb1/

[Tatonka]

EB must have voted 7 times..

[The Natrix]

The accusation is ******ed. It was a good play just to get that position on the WR. Go back and look at the play. Haven't you ever seen a defender tip it, and it goes right to another receiver. Let's move on! :::

Plus, there are so many detrimental plays by many individuals that don't get noticed because they aren't replayed on NFL prime time 10 times. Clements does so much more good than bad for this team. Remember his pick in the Steelers game? That gave new hope.

[The Natrix]

Plus, if you take into account the butterfly effect, who knows. Maybe if the Bills won the opener, they go 8-8! Let's drop Ms. Cleo a pm. :::

[Typ0]

Here it is in a nutshell. DB was not responsible for the team failing...but an assessment of the TOTALLITY of his performance here over the course of three seasons deemed he be sent packing...and he was. Try and cover that up with one fourth quarter drive and the culminating TD that could have been thwarted by NC all you want...it doesn't change the facts.

[justasportsfan]

Again.. if McGee makes that interception, neither happens. Way too many IF's. You could IF your way all the way back to the opening kickoff IF you wanted to... :funny:If Villarial was not called for a penalty when Willis made the 1st down, the Clememnts thing would never have happened. If Spikes and co. covered the Jags wr who caught the TD for the win, we would've made playoffs. You are right , there's so many if's.

[DraftBoy]

I voted Yes and Philgape explains why in his 1st post, nobody can deny the fact that if Clements knocks down that pass we do go the playoffs. we are not questioning any other ifs with this poll, its a very simple question, did Nate by not knocking down that one pass cost us the playoffs and he did if you limit to just that one play. Over the course of the whole season we have numerous other errors by Bledsoe OL, DL, DB's. Just saying the poll is an easy question and answer, did Clements cost us the playoffs by not knocking down the ball? Yes!

[Mr. Cynical]

No.

[Voltron]

No.
So profound :geek:

[kgun12]

I'm not going to read all the posts, BUT if the offense (not Drew) scores more than 10 points and we had our chances then the late TD by Jax means NOTHING. Our offense was horrible in ALOT of games last year, about 7 or 8 games. Again not bashing Drew, I mean the line, RB, WR and coaching.

[Throne Logic]

Um, was this not the first game of the season? First game never cost anyone a season. Cause and effect folks. If Buffalo won that first game, the entire outcome of the season would have been different and not necessarily for the better. As it happened, Buffalo did do well enough over the course of the next 14 games to make a playoff bid.

The only game you can pin anything on last season was the final game. As it turned out, all they had to do was beat the Steelers bench warmers and Buffalo would have been in the playoffs. This was a total team choke. That game, the one that mattered the most, cost them the playoff appearance.

[kgun12]

Um, was this not the first game of the season? First game never cost anyone a season. Cause and effect folks. If Buffalo won that first game, the entire outcome of the season would have been different and not necessarily for the better. As it happened, Buffalo did do well enough over the course of the next 14 games to make a playoff bid.

The only game you can pin anything on last season was the final game. As it turned out, all they had to do was beat the Steelers bench warmers and Buffalo would have been in the playoffs. This was a total team choke. That game, the one that mattered the most, cost them the playoff appearance.

Also a very good point!

[Typ0]

Um, was this not the first game of the season? First game never cost anyone a season. Cause and effect folks. If Buffalo won that first game, the entire outcome of the season would have been different and not necessarily for the better. As it happened, Buffalo did do well enough over the course of the next 14 games to make a playoff bid.

The only game you can pin anything on last season was the final game. As it turned out, all they had to do was beat the Steelers bench warmers and Buffalo would have been in the playoffs. This was a total team choke. That game, the one that mattered the most, cost them the playoff appearance.

Personally, I think the rest of the team played bad on purpose because they wanted to make sure DB got cut...they just got sick of his sucking so much.

[Marvelous]

I'm with ya Bam but there were plenty of bone headed plays.
-Henry against Oakland. He should have gotten in.
-WR's against Baltimore. I don't recall who but how many tipped passes turned INT's?
- The whole D against Jets (1st game) They let them drive the whole field in 45 seconds. wtf!
-Bledsoe against Pitt. you guys know the play.
-COACHES! Why was Nate 1 on 1 with their best WR on 4th & long?????

[BAM]

Um, was this not the first game of the season? First game never cost anyone a season. Cause and effect folks.

:clap:


34-11

Good points all around.

[buffalofan19]

Personally, I think the rest of the team played bad on purpose because they wanted to make sure DB got cut...they just got sick of his sucking so much.
I hate conspiracy theory.