Is Milke Williams worth it?

[Mr. Cynical]

I posted this in another thread but I think it bears discussion in it's own right.

MW's cap hit in '05: $9.17M
Orlando Pace's cap hit in '05: $8.4M

Something is definitely out of whack here when an RT of MW's calibre is making more than an LT of Pace's caliber.

Discuss.

[Forward_Lateral]

IMO, he's becoming a great RT, but jesus, that kind of $$ could buy us 2, maybe 3 good lineman. Villarial makes, what 3 milliion a year?

This contract is ridiculous, and is one of the few mistakes TD has made. TD needs to get Mike to restructure, or move his ass to LT.

[Mr. Cynical]

Seriously, if TD really wants to make this line better, it starts and ends with the LT. That's why they make the most on the line. IMO, they should move MW to LT to see if he can earn his money. If he doesn't shine, then put him back at RT and cut his pay down to $4-5M or trade/release him. Or if they just want to keep him at RT then just cut his pay.

I'm sure there are a million ramifications to cutting his pay with all the legalese, but IMO they need to stop the bleeding sooner than later. Yes he is a good lineman but at $9.17 he needs to be a stud LT. No one else on an oline should be making that kind of money. That's preventing us from signing an stud LT. You can't pay two Pace's on the same line.

[jamze132]

If he's going to get paid that much money, he better play all 16 games and make the pro bowl as a starter. It's the only way to justify him getting that much money!

[Forward_Lateral]

If he's going to get paid that much money, he better play all 16 games and make the pro bowl as a starter. It's the only way to justify him getting that much money!

AT Left Tackle.

[mysticsoto]

I think we should move him to LT. I think he is a decent run blocker that could still get better, but he's commanding too much money now. Seems like he should be approached about a pay cut more than a restructuring of contract. If Bledsoe could do it...

[Mr. Cynical]

I don't know the cap hit numbers but I wouldn't be opposed to trading/releasing him outright if he doesn't take a reduction (if staying at RT). If we can free up alot of cash, then we could even go after Pace and use a rook for RT. Bottom line is LT is alot more important than RT and I'd be willing to risk it on that side for a proven star on the left.

But again I'm sure we are stuck with MW's monster contract so it's all moot. :sigh:

[venis2k1]

and thats why it sucks to draft 4th overall.

[Spielmanrules54]

Put him on the left... let McNally work his magic.... Big Mike did show signs of improvement this past season. Hey it's only been 4 years since he was drafted...ok ok, so he's a little slow. Definitely restructure that countract though... that number's a lil tacky to say the least

[Ebenezer]

I don't know the cap hit numbers but I wouldn't be opposed to trading/releasing him outright if he doesn't take a reduction (if staying at RT). If we can free up alot of cash, then we could even go after Pace and use a rook for RT. Bottom line is LT is alot more important than RT and I'd be willing to risk it on that side for a proven star on the left.

But again I'm sure we are stuck with MW's monster contract so it's all moot. :sigh:
at this point, if you cut MW you would save $340K on the cap...

as Venis said...it sucks to draft #4...do you think McKinney would be worth the money MW is getting? He's a LT but still not worth the money, but he would be getting it...how about Roy Williams from Dallas? Worth $9mil a year? That's what he would be getting if picked #4...Detroit is taking a pounding on Harrington to the point there were rumors he would be released...drafting high sucks.

Trust me...I would love to see the Bills redo the deal...facts are facts...you draft a guy #4 he gets a bucket load of money...if he fails you are left holding the bag until the contract becomes friendly enough to cut him...which is usually after year 4 or 5...the last thing you want to do is draft a guy #4 sign him for 4 years and then have him pan out and leave...to get years 5+ you have to lock him up this way...which is the risk...sorry, that's how the game is played.

[Sportsuser101]

Hey.. I want McKinnie from the beginning. We have our LT now too. Oh well can't go in the past. As I've been saying since I heard about Fat Mike's cap # we must do something with his cap #. He makes almost double our next player (Moulds) and he's not even 1 of our 10 best players. I'd cut him before I let him sit on all that money no matter how good he looked late in the year.

[Sportsuser101]

Ok after seeing how much we would save.. lets not cut Fat Mike.

[Sportsuser101]

Julius Peppers just restructured and he's 1 of the best DEs in the league.. Fat Mike needs to restructure.

[Ebenezer]

Hey.. I want McKinnie from the beginning. We have our LT now too. Oh well can't go in the past. As I've been saying since I heard about Fat Mike's cap # we must do something with his cap #. He makes almost double our next player (Moulds) and he's not even 1 of our 10 best players. I'd cut him before I let him sit on all that money no matter how good he looked late in the year.
again...he saves $340K (depending on when the bonus gets paid, yada yada yada)...who do you expect to get to replace him??...now if the bonus is due in September you could save $3.34 by cutting him now.

[Ebenezer]

Julius Peppers just restructured and he's 1 of the best DEs in the league.. Fat Mike needs to restructure.
the player has to be willing to restructure...a GM cannot just take a contract and rewrite it...

[Sportsuser101]

the player has to be willing to restructure...a GM cannot just take a contract and rewrite it...
Yeah true but I mean Fat Mike needs to realize that if he wants to win he needs to help the team out.

[Ebenezer]

Yeah true but I mean Fat Mike needs to realize that if he wants to win he needs to help the team out.
I believe "you can't feed your family with rings" applies to many players...JJ just jumped to 49ers (i.e., the worst team in football) just for the cash...SF isn't winning anything anytime soon...

[Sportsuser101]

I believe "you can't feed your family with rings" applies to many players...JJ just jumped to 49ers (i.e., the worst team in football) just for the cash...SF isn't winning anything anytime soon...
Yeah I hear ya. I hope MW doesn't have the same mindset as JJ.

[Tatonka]

his contract sucks.. but cutting him is so completely out of the question.. you think we are up **** creek now? MW is our best lineman.

[Ebenezer]

his contract sucks.. but cutting him is so completely out of the question.. you think we are up **** creek now? MW is our best lineman.
regrettably, you might be right...it will be interesting to see what another year with McNally will do for him...I wonder if Teague goes to LT for a year and when his contract is up if MW makes the switch to LT.

[Mr. Cynical]

again...he saves $340K (depending on when the bonus gets paid, yada yada yada)...who do you expect to get to replace him??...now if the bonus is due in September you could save $3.34 by cutting him now.Replacing an RT is ALOT easier that replacing an LT. To pay MW more than Pace to play RT is simply a bad idea, no matter how good he plays that position.

On the line, the LT > RT (unless you have a lefty QB, which we don't)

You can't afford to pay an RT $9M a year. Find me another RT that makes that kind of money (with a righty QB). I hear you about the pains of paying a high draft pick, but at some point if you want the team to move ahead you have to suck it up and bite the bullet. This is where TD falls short IMO.

TD has made some very good calls with WM, LE and FAs like Spikes, but he is not one to fix his own mistakes in a timely manner. Took him 3 years to get rid of GW, and another 3 to get rid of Drew. You don't draft an OL at #4 to play RT. Granted this would be an easier decision if MW didn't show improvement, but again....to pay an RT $9M is nuts when you don't have anyone at LT.

If he doesn't restructure or take a cut....and if he can't play LT....dump him. We are finally in position to take major strides with this team and I don't want any baggage holding us back.

[Ebenezer]

Replacing an RT is ALOT easier that replacing an LT. To pay MW more than Pace to play RT is simply a bad idea, no matter how good he plays that position.

On the line, the LT > RT (unless you have a lefty QB, which we don't)

You can't afford to pay an RT $9M a year. Find me another RT that makes that kind of money (with a righty QB). I hear you about the pains of paying a high draft pick, but at some point if you want the team to move ahead you have to suck it up and bite the bullet. This is where TD falls short IMO.

TD has made some very good calls with WM, LE and FAs like Spikes, but he is not one to fix his own mistakes in a timely manner. Took him 3 years to get rid of GW, and another 3 to get rid of Drew. You don't draft an OL at #4 to play RT. Granted this would be an easier decision if MW didn't show improvement, but again....to pay an RT $9M is nuts when you don't have anyone at LT.

If he doesn't restructure or take a cut....and if he can't play LT....dump him. We are finally in position to take major strides with this team and I don't want any baggage holding us back.
again...depending on when that $3mil bonus is/was paid you only save $340K but cutting him...who do you replace him with when you have <$1 mil to spend?? I am not disagreeing...It's easy to say cut him but you better have a back up plan...Dylan McFarland or Mike Gandy are going to get JP killed...the kid is mobile, he is not Carl Lewis.

[eyedog]

From what I saw last year fatboy did his share of getting the qb killed also. It's time for this guy to step up.

[The_Philster]

regrettably, you might be right...it will be interesting to see what another year with McNally will do for him...I wonder if Teague goes to LT for a year and when his contract is up if MW makes the switch to LT.

I think Teague to LT this year and our 2nd round draft pick this year will take over at LT next year...moving someone out of his best position based purely on salary is silly

[Mr. Cynical]

From what I saw last year fatboy did his share of getting the qb killed also. It's time for this guy to step up.
:rofl:

[casdhf]

Teague weights like 280 pounds. He is not going to play LT.

[Tatonka]

teague is 300 lbs.

[Tatonka]

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12756

[Mr. Cynical]

again...depending on when that $3mil bonus is/was paid you only save $340K but cutting him...who do you replace him with when you have <$1 mil to spend?? I am not disagreeing...It's easy to say cut him but you better have a back up plan...Dylan McFarland or Mike Gandy are going to get JP killed...the kid is mobile, he is not Carl Lewis.Do you have MW's contract numbers since coming here? I'd be very curious to know how the contract has paid out and will pay out going forward.

I guess my point is that you can't have a $9M RT and expect to have a stud LT at the same time. There's no question you can get away with an average RT and a stud LT and still have a very good line. The reverse is usually not the case. The question is how do you remedy our situation. I don't pretend to have all the answers, but keeping him there at that price is definitely not one of them.

[Mr. Cynical]

Unless TD has a master plan, MW's contract is what will screw up the line this year IMO.

[Ebenezer]

Do you have MW's contract numbers since coming here? I'd be very curious to know how the contract has paid out and will pay out going forward.

I guess my point is that you can't have a $9M RT and expect to have a stud LT at the same time. There's no question you can get away with an average RT and a stud LT and still have a very good line. The reverse is usually not the case. The question is how do you remedy our situation. I don't pretend to have all the answers, but keeping him there at that price is definitely not one of them.

Clump and I already posted that in another thread.


Unless TD has a master plan, MW's contract is what will screw up the line this year IMO.

I don't understand how the contract screws up the line. The contract is what it is for drafting a player 4th overall. Would Harrington, McKinnie or Roy Williams be worth $9mil this year? I say no.

The line is screwed up because the fixes that TD has tried have not worked. There still is no LG and now he needs to find another T (whether MW plays left or right is irrelevant - the Bills need another).

[Michael82]

Keep in mind that this is only the players' salary and doesn't include bonuses or escalators. :::

Pick 2: DE Julius Peppers

2002 1000000.00
2003 350000.00
2004 600000.00
2005 455000.00
2006 5515000.00
2007 5535000.00
2008 6500000.00
------------------------------------
Pick 3: QB Joey Harrington

2002 1300000.00
2003 300000.00
2004 380000.00
2005 4950000.00
2006 4450000.00
2007 4450000.00
------------------------------------
Pick 4: OT Mike Williams

2002 962500.00
2003 558125.00
2004 486250.00
2005 4000000.00
2006 4000000.00
2007 5000000.00
------------------------------------
Pick 5: CB Quentin Jammer

2002 1062500.00
2003 350000.00
2004 600000.00
2005 1550000.00
2006 1550000.00
2007 1800000.00
------------------------------------
Pick 6: Ryan Sims

2002 1340000.00
2003 300000.00
2004 535000.00
2005 832000.00
2006 1567000.00
2007 1901000.00
2008 1834000.00
2009 2000000.00
------------------------------------
Pick 7: OT Bryant McKinnie

2002 1416666.00
2003 600000.00
2004 600000.00
2005 700000.00
2006 900000.00
2007 1445500.00
2008 1890998.00

[Michael82]

Everyone else had a big hit in the beginning. TD made it more backloaded so that we could afford to rebuild the team and bring in guys like Jeff Posey, Takeo Spikes, Sam Adams, Lawyer Milloy, Daimon Shelton, Chris Villarrial, Troy Vincent.

[Ebenezer]

Keep in mind that this is only the players' salary and doesn't include bonuses or escalators. :::

Pick 2: DE Julius Peppers

2002 1000000.00
2003 350000.00
2004 600000.00
2005 455000.00
2006 5515000.00
2007 5535000.00
2008 6500000.00
------------------------------------
Pick 3: QB Joey Harrington

2002 1300000.00
2003 300000.00
2004 380000.00
2005 4950000.00
2006 4450000.00
2007 4450000.00
------------------------------------
Pick 4: OT Mike Williams

2002 962500.00
2003 558125.00
2004 486250.00
2005 4000000.00
2006 4000000.00
2007 5000000.00
------------------------------------
Pick 5: CB Quentin Jammer

2002 1062500.00
2003 350000.00
2004 600000.00
2005 1550000.00
2006 1550000.00
2007 1800000.00
------------------------------------
Pick 6: Ryan Sims

2002 1340000.00
2003 300000.00
2004 535000.00
2005 832000.00
2006 1567000.00
2007 1901000.00
2008 1834000.00
2009 2000000.00
------------------------------------
Pick 7: OT Bryant McKinnie

2002 1416666.00
2003 600000.00
2004 600000.00
2005 700000.00
2006 900000.00
2007 1445500.00
2008 1890998.00


Need to note: Mike Williams salaries originally were:
2005 $726,875
2006 $967,500
2007 $1,208,125

There was an escalator in his contract that bumped his salaries up. I don't know if those other players had an escalator or not.

As far as signing bonus money, Clump can correct me, but I think I am reading these correctly.

Signing Bonuses: note the two tiered SB.

Peppers: $14.2M got $9.1 M in 2002 AND $5.15 M in 2003
Harrington: $12.6M got $6.0M in 2002 AND $6.625 in 2003
M. Williams: $11 M got $7.725M in 2002 AND $3.25 M in 2003
Jammer: $10.5M got $6M in 2002 in 2002 and $4.5M in 2003
Sims: $9.875M got $3M in 2002 and $ 6.875 M in 2003
McKinnie: $5M got 0 in 2002 (hold out) and $5M in 2003
R. Williams: $9.3M got $4M in 2002 and $5.3M in 2003

[Michael82]

Need to note: Mike Williams salaries originally were:
2005 $726,875
2006 $967,500
2007 $1,208,125

There was an escalator in his contract that bumped his salaries up. I don't know if those other players had an escalator or not.

As far as signing bonus money, Clump can correct me, but I think I am reading these correctly.

Signing Bonuses: note the two tiered SB.

Peppers: $14.2M got $9.1 M in 2002 AND $5.15 M in 2003
Harrington: $12.6M got $6.0M in 2002 AND $6.625 in 2003
M. Williams: $11 M got $7.725M in 2002 AND $3.25 M in 2003
Jammer: $10.5M got $6M in 2002 in 2002 and $4.5M in 2003
Sims: $9.875M got $3M in 2002 and $ 6.875 M in 2003
McKinnie: $5M got 0 in 2002 (hold out) and $5M in 2003
R. Williams: $9.3M got $4M in 2002 and $5.3M in 2003
McKinnie lost about $4.5 million by holding out?!?! :rofl:

[Ebenezer]

McKinnie lost about $4.5 million by holding out?!?! :rofl:
depends if they gave him more money in 2004...who knows...

[Ebenezer]

McKinnie lost about $4.5 million by holding out?!?! :rofl:
the point is that MW contract was in line, salary and bonus wise, with what other draft picks got...TD did not just throw money at him and over pay him. Now, a good question is what the escalator was and how he attained it...and do others below him have similar escalators?? Apparently the top 3 were either signed for huge money or had escalators in their contracts also.

[Michael82]

the point is that MW contract was in line, salary and bonus wise, with what other draft picks got...TD did not just throw money at him and over pay him. Now, a good question is what the escalator was and how he attained it...and do others below him have similar escalators?? Apparently the top 3 were either signed for huge money or had escalators in their contracts also.
That was my point by showing those salaries. I wonder if he had an escalator about starting time. I mean, didn't Mike Williams start every single game since he was drafted? Or almost every game. Or maybe it had something to do with his sacks given up or the amount of penalties. I dunno. But I bet that Jammer and McKinnie have similar ones.

[eyedog]

He's supposed to start every game. Except of course when he needs his yearly couple of games off for the variety of reasons he had. Minor injuries, auto rollovers, wife giving him ****, hurt fellings. Lets hope he can string 16 in a row for 2005 and play close to his salary.

[Ebenezer]

He's supposed to start every game. Except of course when he needs his yearly couple of games off for the variety of reasons he had. Minor injuries, auto rollovers, wife giving him ****, hurt fellings. Lets hope he can string 16 in a row for 2005 and play close to his salary.
except for Peppers show me another player listed that was worth that money?? Harrington, Jammer, Sims?? please, no. Roy Williams (mikey can attest I wanted Roy and not Mike) has been worth it.

[helmetguy]

Correction: TD had ONE year to fire GW, provided that a five game improvement in his second year STILL wasn't up to standard. Bottom line is this is just another one in the litany of "I know more than TD so he has to go" threads.

Carry on.

[Michael82]

except for Peppers show me another player listed that was worth that money?? Harrington, Jammer, Sims?? please, no. Roy Williams (mikey can attest I wanted Roy and not Mike) has been worth it.
Roy Williams didn't look that great in Dallas last year. :shakeno:

[Ebenezer]

Roy Williams didn't look that great in Dallas last year. :shakeno:
still had a great year though...compared to those drafted above him? RWilliams has done fine.

[Michael82]

still had a great year though...compared to those drafted above him? RWilliams has done fine.
yeah, he's done pretty good. But I still prefer having Big Mike here to fill a need.

[Ebenezer]

yeah, he's done pretty good. But I still prefer having Big Mike here to fill a need.
as it has turned out that might be true...if the Bills S were still Wire and Prioleau I think we would sing a different tune.

[Michael82]

as it has turned out that might be true...if the Bills S were still Wire and Prioleau I think we would sing a different tune.
So would I.

[Mr. Cynical]

the point is that MW contract was in line, salary and bonus wise, with what other draft picks got...TD did not just throw money at him and over pay him. Now, a good question is what the escalator was and how he attained it...and do others below him have similar escalators?? Apparently the top 3 were either signed for huge money or had escalators in their contracts also.The point is that all those other high picks are playing the position they were drafted to play. If MW were playing LT, that would be a different story. Show me a top 4 pick used on an RT for a righty QB team (who ended up playing RT)? That's the point. It is not that he overpayed the spot. He overpayed the position. (or misused him or built the line wrongly...take your pick) Now we're stuck.

P.S. This is not a "TD should be fired" thread so please don't start with that stuff.

[Ebenezer]

The point is that all those other high picks are playing the position they were drafted to play. If MW were playing LT, that would be a different story. Show me a top 4 pick used on an RT for a righty QB team (who ended up playing RT)? That's the point. It is not that he overpayed the spot. He overpayed the position. (or misused him or built the line wrongly...take your pick) Now we're stuck.

P.S. This is not a "TD should be fired" thread so please don't start with that stuff.
I wasn't turning it into a TD thread...

I never remember anybody saying that MW would switch to LT...and if he does that is fine with me.