Squeeze Big Mike! $$$

[jpdex12]

The more that I think about it the more it bugs me...why are we paying MW so much freekin $$$$$$$$? I know he's being paid like a 4th pick and I was very happy with this improvement over the second half of the year, this dude needs to restructure the ole contract! When is that gonna happen?:tap:

[Bruce is Loose]

not till we need the cash - no reason to do it till we are gonna sign someone

[jpdex12]

not till we need the cash - no reason to do it till we are gonna sign someoneMaybe it should have been done two days ago in order to offer DeMulling a bit more. It appears that it was a close offer from each team. It will be very interesting to see how much DeMulling received.

[Tatonka]

yeah.. a cap figure that takes up over 10% of the entire teams salary cap is crazy.. it is crazy if that person is our best player.. but the fact that he is not even necessarily the best player on our pathetic line is what really makes it hard to stomach.. i understand that his contract is based on his draft spot.. and we obviously didnt know that the tub of goo was not going to be able to play LT when we drafted him at #4.. but it still doesnt stop the sting that it takes on the cap.

[HurryUpTom]

yeah.. a cap figure that takes up over 10% of the entire teams salary cap is crazy.. it is crazy if that person is our best player.. but the fact that he is not even necessarily the best player on our pathetic line is what really makes it hard to stomach.. i understand that his contract is based on his draft spot.. and we obviously didnt know that the tub of goo was not going to be able to play LT when we drafted him at #4.. but it still doesnt stop the sting that it takes on the cap.
What are Mike Williams future cap costs? Instead of restructuring, I'd rather see us renegotiate with him. If his cap costs are rising, which I'd expect, there is no way that he is going to be worth the money in the future. I'd rather take the hit early and get the books straight then string him along for longer.

[jpdex12]

What are Mike Williams future cap costs? Instead of restructuring, I'd rather see us renegotiate with him. If his cap costs are rising, which I'd expect, there is no way that he is going to be worth the money in the future. I'd rather take the hit early and get the books straight then string him along for longer.I'd do just the opposite. Give him a nice bonus now and push off the large salaries until later down the road that way we can dump him if need be and not get hurt. The bonus wouldn't be too much but enough to entice him to restructure.
Check Clump's salary cap page or Billsdaily.com.

[HurryUpTom]

I'd do just the opposite. Give him a nice bonus now and push off the large salaries until later down the road that way we can dump him if need be and not get hurt. The bonus wouldn't be too much but enough to entice him to restructure.
Check Clump's salary cap page or Billsdaily.com.
If we give him a big bonus now, that will make it harder for us to cut him in the future ... when you cut someone, the unammortized portion of the bonus is counted against the cap. If we don't decrease the future salary earnings (which is what I meant by renegotiate as opposed to restructure), we'll end up in a situation like we were with Bledsoe where we bought some space last year at the price of space this year. yes, last year's space is marginally worth more than this year's, but for a team that should be developing, I'd rather we take the hit now with things instead of putting the cost into the future when we get all the pieces together.

[jpdex12]

If we give him a big bonus now, that will make it harder for us to cut him in the future ... when you cut someone, the unammortized portion of the bonus is counted against the cap. If we don't decrease the future salary earnings (which is what I meant by renegotiate as opposed to restructure), we'll end up in a situation like we were with Bledsoe where we bought some space last year at the price of space this year. yes, last year's space is marginally worth more than this year's, but for a team that should be developing, I'd rather we take the hit now with things instead of putting the cost into the future when we get all the pieces together.What are your thoughts Clumpy?

[jpdex12]

If we give him a big bonus now, that will make it harder for us to cut him in the future ... when you cut someone, the unammortized portion of the bonus is counted against the cap. If we don't decrease the future salary earnings (which is what I meant by renegotiate as opposed to restructure), we'll end up in a situation like we were with Bledsoe where we bought some space last year at the price of space this year. yes, last year's space is marginally worth more than this year's, but for a team that should be developing, I'd rather we take the hit now with things instead of putting the cost into the future when we get all the pieces together.If we give him a bonus now with the intention of lowering his per year salary in the future, but loading the majority of the salary into the last few years of his contract, wouldn't that lighten the burden of the cap hit we take in the next few years? I thought that was what we just did with Mould's restructuring. So he would be expendable in the near future if his production goes down. These guys want their guarenteed money now.

[Throne Logic]

As it was stated, there's no point in doing this until the CAP space is required. Demulling signed with the Lions for one of two reasons. Either he liked them better or TD wasn't offering to pay him enough money. But don't get confused here. It's not that TD couldn't pay him enough, it's that TD doesn't overpay for players when he can avoid it. Drafting MW at #4 left TD in an unavoidable position. That's the kind of contracts #4's get.

[HurryUpTom]

As it was stated, there's no point in doing this until the CAP space is required. Demulling signed with the Lions for one of two reasons. Either he liked them better or TD wasn't offering to pay him enough money. But don't get confused here. It's not that TD couldn't pay him enough, it's that TD doesn't overpay for players when he can avoid it. Drafting MW at #4 left TD in an unavoidable position. That's the kind of contracts #4's get.
I can understand that there is no urgency to get this done this week. However, I think there is urgency to Mike Williams future cap costs under control. I don't know what he's on the hook for next season, but normally contracts escalate throughout their length and if Williams is on the hook for more than $9 mil next season, then I think we should address his contract this season instead of waiting around.

[Slim]

i still have some hope left in MW

[jpdex12]

I can understand that there is no urgency to get this done this week. However, I think there is urgency to Mike Williams future cap costs under control. I don't know what he's on the hook for next season, but normally contracts escalate throughout their length and if Williams is on the hook for more than $9 mil next season, then I think we should address his contract this season instead of waiting around.Why wait around until your window of opportunity arives and then closes because you weren't prepared? If a FA comes up all of a sudden and we don't immediately have the money to spend, oh well. That's not quite Tom's game, but you never know. If so many people think that he doesn't operate like that then what will be the point of heavily negotiating with Clements when the time comes and he wants big $$$? What's gonna happen if Willis is the stud that he appears to be and Rosenhaus wants TD's first grandchild? I don't even want to think about it!

[HurryUpTom]

Why wait around until your window of opportunity arives and then closes because you weren't prepared? If a FA comes up all of a sudden and we don't immediately have the money to spend, oh well. That's not quite Tom's game, but you never know. If so many people think that he doesn't operate like that then what will be the point of heavily negotiating with Clements when the time comes and he wants big $$$? What's gonna happen if Willis is the stud that he appears to be and Rosenhaus wants TD's first grandchild? I don't even want to think about it!
I'm sorry, I don't know how your question relates to what I am saying?

I think we should be prepared for the future and part of that involves getting MW's contract in order. He is signed through to '07, and if it's built like a normal contract, his cost is going to escalate throughout. I'd rather we get that in line earlier, so that we can be prepared, instead of waiting around in the future and having him continually count this much. Basically, I think we should try and avoid Williams costing us $18 mil over the next 2 seasons. I'd rather we do something this season to avoid the upcoming hits instead of waiting around and just paying him the money because we don't have anything else to spend it on. The big escalator this season was known and the cap hit was known ... nothing was done about it. The more of these that we pile on, the more we're paying for a middle-of-the-road RT.

[Tatonka]

i still have some hope left in MW


it doesnt have anything to do with hope for him..

he could actually be the best RT in the entire league.. and is still not worth half of the 9 million he counts against the cap..

[The Spaz]

I would rather Mike Williams be a an eventual Pro-Bowl Caliber ROT then an average OLT.

[Throne Logic]

I'm sorry, I don't know how your question relates to what I am saying?

I think we should be prepared for the future and part of that involves getting MW's contract in order. He is signed through to '07, and if it's built like a normal contract, his cost is going to escalate throughout. I'd rather we get that in line earlier, so that we can be prepared, instead of waiting around in the future and having him continually count this much. Basically, I think we should try and avoid Williams costing us $18 mil over the next 2 seasons. I'd rather we do something this season to avoid the upcoming hits instead of waiting around and just paying him the money because we don't have anything else to spend it on. The big escalator this season was known and the cap hit was known ... nothing was done about it. The more of these that we pile on, the more we're paying for a middle-of-the-road RT.

The way I see it, TD has a few options here. He's most likely got them lined up and ready to pull the proverbial trigger. However, he's not going to jump now when there is no rush. He can wait to restructure / renegotiate MW's contract for a few more weeks without making a bit of difference as to how it effects anything. If he finds a player he'd like to sign, TD will just exercise the most appropriate option to fit what he needs to do with the CAP. If nothing happens right on up until June-ish, then TD will rework MW's contract at that time. Point being, what's the big rush?

[Throne Logic]

Why wait around until your window of opportunity arives and then closes because you weren't prepared? If a FA comes up all of a sudden and we don't immediately have the money to spend, oh well. That's not quite Tom's game, but you never know. If so many people think that he doesn't operate like that then what will be the point of heavily negotiating with Clements when the time comes and he wants big $$$? What's gonna happen if Willis is the stud that he appears to be and Rosenhaus wants TD's first grandchild? I don't even want to think about it!

Now that's just foolish to think that TD isn't prepared to move quickly if he needs to. I guarantee that TD could free up 5 million off the CAP in a heartbeat if he decided it was in the best interest for the team. Haste leads to CAP Hell. By keeping Buffalo close the CAP this year, TD has more CAP space in the future. This is good CAP management.

[jpdex12]

Now that's just foolish to think that TD isn't prepared to move quickly if he needs to. I guarantee that TD could free up 5 million off the CAP in a heartbeat if he decided it was in the best interest for the team. Haste leads to CAP Hell. By keeping Buffalo close the CAP this year, TD has more CAP space in the future. This is good CAP management.I'm not foolish! Do you think that these restructures happen in five minutes? He would see someone of interest, have to contact MW's agent, propose the deal, the agent would have to contact Mike, Mike would have to think about it, then they get back to TD. Don't you think this would take all of at least two days. When a hot FA drops into the market, they can be snatched up in less than a day!
It is foolish when you take things for granted. Assuming that TD is prepared for everything is unrealistic. Maybe that is why we did not sign any of the bigger FA's that visited Buffalo and the reason given was that they were asking too much. We will never know!

[Tatonka]

I would rather Mike Williams be a an eventual Pro-Bowl Caliber ROT then an average OLT.


my point is.. for the money he is making.. he needs to be the greatest RT in the history of the game.. not one that is averaging 8 sacks given up a year.

[Tatonka]

throne.. you assume that williams will just say ok to a restructure..

[LabattBlue]

throne.. you assume that williams will just say ok to a restructure..
This is the key point. If MW does not want to restructure, TD has no leverage. What's he going to do...cut him? I believe that MW has a cap figure of around 9 mil for each of the next 3 seasons and it doesn't matter if he plays well, he is still a salary cap albatross at 9 mil per year until his contract is redone.

[Mr. Cynical]

If MW stays at RT and keeps getting paid $9M, then we better win the f***king SB. Otherwise it will rank right up there with GW and Drew as two colossal mistakes by TD.

[don137]

A couple of thoughts on MW
Overall he has been a big disappointment. He isn't worth half his salary right now but I have a feeling under McNally he will be a dominate lineman by the time his contract his up. He still is not worth the cap hit. No reason he should take up as much cap as the OLmen in the league with his kind of numbers. I hope realizes this and takes much less if he renegotiates with Buffalo.
Just curious, I wonder what MW's value on the open market right now and if he would of receive about the same as JJ or less.

[jamze132]

my point is.. for the money he is making.. he needs to be the greatest RT in the history of the game.. not one that is averaging 8 sacks given up a year.

Don't forget how many sacks weren't the O-line's fault over the past 3 years. I do agree that Williams is way overpaid though!

[Tatonka]

he "should" receive much less than jj right now.. who is making half of what mike is making.. jj is a much better player.

[G. Host]

he "should" receive much less than jj right now.. who is making half of what mike is making.. jj is a much better player.

JJ's new contract is backloaded and just starting; even so he is overpaid by SF for he can not stay healthy.

[HurryUpTom]

A couple of thoughts on MW
Overall he has been a big disappointment. He isn't worth half his salary right now but I have a feeling under McNally he will be a dominate lineman by the time his contract his up. He still is not worth the cap hit. No reason he should take up as much cap as the OLmen in the league with his kind of numbers. I hope realizes this and takes much less if he renegotiates with Buffalo.
Just curious, I wonder what MW's value on the open market right now and if he would of receive about the same as JJ or less.

In the age of the salary cap, I think that it is up to our management to act like the Pats have and say, "Look, Mike, you're ok, you're not a 9 mil/yr football player. Either take a paycut or go looking elsewhere."

The Pats are very cutthroat in their negotiations with their existing players giving them a take it or leave it option, even when the player doesn't necessarily need to be cut immediately (I think they had the cap space for Milloy to play 2 years ago and they still cut him). We seem to have that style with free agents, but need to start taking it with our own. I don't want to rehash things, but after his renegotiation Drew should not have received the same amount of compensation last year. His options should have been a pay cut or an outright cut, not the same value but a different way.

[colin]

JJ is getting more than Mike's contract was worth when he signed with us as a rook.

it is just that mike's contract is back loaded, as they nearly all are.


mike is costing a lot now against the cap because he cost very little against the cap in his first couple of years.

you guys have seen this time and time again, I don't understand why people around here seem surprised.

[HurryUpTom]

JJ is getting more than Mike's contract was worth when he signed with us as a rook.

it is just that mike's contract is back loaded, as they nearly all are.


mike is costing a lot now against the cap because he cost very little against the cap in his first couple of years.

you guys have seen this time and time again, I don't understand why people around here seem surprised.
In the NFL, contracts are not guaranteed. As a result, the value of MW's contract at signing is not relevant. Every year you have to look at the contract as a new contract and compare its future value to the cost of cutting that player. Right now, I think the future cap space we'd save is more valuable than Williams, so we need to either renegotiate or cut him.

[colin]

In the NFL, contracts are not guaranteed. As a result, the value of MW's contract at signing is not relevant. Every year you have to look at the contract as a new contract and compare its future value to the cost of cutting that player. Right now, I think the future cap space we'd save is more valuable than Williams, so we need to either renegotiate or cut him.

yeah, we might do something but no matter what you do, you have large cap hits at the end. you can't just wish it away either, because if you cut the player after a year when his base is low and his next year's salary is high then you trigger any un ammortized bonus outstanding, and then you get dead cap money (as in drew this year).

the problem we have with mike william's contract is are we really gonna cut him? if we can't his agent won't think the threat is credible and he just won't renegotiate the contract. if we do cut him he will get snapped up for at least what jonas got, so if we renegotiate his contract it will have to be at least close to what he can get elsewhere, and it doesn't seem likely that he will give up any salary for the upcoming year -- just let it get converted into bonus.

do you actually think future cap space is more important than our only tackle left on the team from last year -- and the 4th overall pick the year he was drafted?

who would we replace him with?

cutting mike williams now would be freakin insane.

[Mr. Cynical]

JJ is getting more than Mike's contract was worth when he signed with us as a rook.

it is just that mike's contract is back loaded, as they nearly all are.


mike is costing a lot now against the cap because he cost very little against the cap in his first couple of years.

you guys have seen this time and time again, I don't understand why people around here seem surprised.
The surprise is not the backloaded money. The surprise was and still is paying an RT $9.17M. When it became clear MW could not play LT, he should have been restructured or cut. That's the surprise.

[HurryUpTom]

yeah, we might do something but no matter what you do, you have large cap hits at the end. you can't just wish it away either, because if you cut the player after a year when his base is low and his next year's salary is high then you trigger any un ammortized bonus outstanding, and then you get dead cap money (as in drew this year).

the problem we have with mike william's contract is are we really gonna cut him? if we can't his agent won't think the threat is credible and he just won't renegotiate the contract. if we do cut him he will get snapped up for at least what jonas got, so if we renegotiate his contract it will have to be at least close to what he can get elsewhere, and it doesn't seem likely that he will give up any salary for the upcoming year -- just let it get converted into bonus.

do you actually think future cap space is more important than our only tackle left on the team from last year -- and the 4th overall pick the year he was drafted?

who would we replace him with?

cutting mike williams now would be freakin insane.In the salary cap era, you can't just evaluate a person by their performance ... you have to look at their performance per dollar and it's impossible for MW to live up to 3 years at 9+ mil (as I've said all along, I don't know the future cap hits so that number may be off, but I'm assuming his contract continues to grow as that is the standard).

Also, even if Williams signs for more than Jennings got - that still leaves a lot of room for savings in the coming years. JJ got a big contract, but he did not come close to 9 mil/yr - he got a little more than 5 mil/yr.

[jpdex12]

If we don't restructure Big Mike, we won't have much of a chance at Clements if TD plans on spending a little extra on him.

[Mr. Cynical]

Looks like TD visits the BZ. He's restructuring MW's contract. :up:

Why did it take him so long to listen to us about Drew? :snicker: