What do you think about a franchise in Toronto?

[Billscusey]

Hi Billszone members, this is my first post, and I think this board is fantastic! As a Bills fan from Toronto Canada, I often wonder where my support would go if Toronto gets an NFL franchise, which could happen.

I love the Bills, and love travelling to Buffalo for the weekend with friends, but having a team just down the road would be enticing. I was just wondering what other Toronto Bills fans thought about this issue. I would also like to hear about Buffalo residents as well on this issue. How do you feel about a franchise in Toronto? Having a team so close would certainly reduce ticket sales, and could affect whether or not Buffalo gets a new stadium (whether we all want it or not!).

Thanks for creating such a great place for Bills fans to "meet."

[tampabay25690]

Hi Billszone members, this is my first post, and I think this board is fantastic! As a Bills fan from Toronto Canada, I often wonder where my support would go if Toronto gets an NFL franchise, which could happen.

I love the Bills, and love travelling to Buffalo for the weekend with friends, but having a team just down the road would be enticing. I was just wondering what other Toronto Bills fans thought about this issue. I would also like to hear about Buffalo residents as well on this issue. How do you feel about a franchise in Toronto? Having a team so close would certainly reduce ticket sales, and could affect whether or not Buffalo gets a new stadium (whether we all want it or not!).

Thanks for creating such a great place for Bills fans to "meet."

THE only thing people in Toronto like is HOCKEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

END OF story......

[gr8slayer]

Im sorry but IMO I say the hell with Canada. If you all want football start your own football league. The Bills wont be moving any time soon so dont count on it.

[AndreReed83]

Im sorry but IMO I say the hell with Canada. If you all want football start your own football league. The Bills wont be moving any time soon so dont count on it.


.....they alreay have their own football league.....

I wouldn't mind it myself. If it happens, it happens. But it certainly would hurt the Bills, and heck, it would most likely be the Bills themself moving their if it did happen. But, I bet the NFL wouldn't mind it at all, a whole new country to tap into to.

[gr8slayer]

.....they alreay have their own football league.....
.If you can call that a football league.

[Mr.Right]

Send the Bills OUT of the country? :shocked:

I'm all for it....
:funny:

[Ron C.]

I think Toronto would be a great market for the NFL. It would hurt the Bills attendance a bit, but what a local rivalry it would be! The problem is that a 32 team league works out perfectly, so a team in Ontario would likely have to come from an existing NFL city.....hopefully not one wearing red and blue ;)

[BidsJr]

Hi Billszone members, this is my first post, and I think this board is fantastic! As a Bills fan from Toronto Canada, I often wonder where my support would go if Toronto gets an NFL franchise, which could happen.

I love the Bills, and love travelling to Buffalo for the weekend with friends, but having a team just down the road would be enticing. I was just wondering what other Toronto Bills fans thought about this issue. I would also like to hear about Buffalo residents as well on this issue. How do you feel about a franchise in Toronto? Having a team so close would certainly reduce ticket sales, and could affect whether or not Buffalo gets a new stadium (whether we all want it or not!).

Thanks for creating such a great place for Bills fans to "meet."

:negrep:
:negrep:
:negrep:

[Crisis]

Unless their jersey is Teal and Orange, no thanks.

[Nighthawk]

Hi Billszone members, this is my first post, and I think this board is fantastic! As a Bills fan from Toronto Canada, I often wonder where my support would go if Toronto gets an NFL franchise, which could happen.

I love the Bills, and love travelling to Buffalo for the weekend with friends, but having a team just down the road would be enticing. I was just wondering what other Toronto Bills fans thought about this issue. I would also like to hear about Buffalo residents as well on this issue. How do you feel about a franchise in Toronto? Having a team so close would certainly reduce ticket sales, and could affect whether or not Buffalo gets a new stadium (whether we all want it or not!).

Thanks for creating such a great place for Bills fans to "meet."



Will never happen...no players would want to play there. Players would have to be paid in US Currency and that would hurt the franchise. It's the same problem that the NBA has had up there...plua, no players want to live up there either. I highly doubt it ever happens.

[Cntrygal]

Hi Billszone members, this is my first post, and I think this board is fantastic! As a Bills fan from Toronto Canada, I often wonder where my support would go if Toronto gets an NFL franchise, which could happen.

I love the Bills, and love travelling to Buffalo for the weekend with friends, but having a team just down the road would be enticing. I was just wondering what other Toronto Bills fans thought about this issue. I would also like to hear about Buffalo residents as well on this issue. How do you feel about a franchise in Toronto? Having a team so close would certainly reduce ticket sales, and could affect whether or not Buffalo gets a new stadium (whether we all want it or not!).

Thanks for creating such a great place for Bills fans to "meet."

Welcome to the posting section of the Zone! It's about time! ;)

Personally, I wouldn't like an expansion team in Toronto... It would (IMO) REALLY hurt Buffalo.

Do you plan at being at the Opener? If you do, you should definately plan on meeting up with us. :cheers:

[Billscusey]

I am definitely planning on hitting the opener this year! Last season, I only made it down three times (I was finishing my Masters so I needed to devote a LITTLE bit of time to that!) but now I am all finished, and hope to see the Bills live more often. We have quite the travelling group too. Where do Zoners meet before the games?

[The_Philster]

I am definitely planning on hitting the opener this year! Last season, I only made it down three times (I was finishing my Masters so I needed to devote a LITTLE bit of time to that!) but now I am all finished, and hope to see the Bills live more often. We have quite the travelling group too. Where do Zoners meet before the games?

most of the time...Zoners can be found in the area marked Helmet Crew on this map
:up:
http://www.billszone.com/coppermine/albums/userpics/10006/normal_billszone-tailgate-map%7E0.jpg

[Billscusey]

That's awesome! Thanks a lot Philster, I look forward to meeting you all in the fall.

[HurryUpTom]

There is no tailgating in Ontario due to it's archaic alcohol laws. Without tailgating, you don't deserve an NFL team.

[THATHURMANATOR]

as long as it isnt the Bills moving there it would be ok with me. Imagine the rivalry.

[ParanoidAndroid]

Hi Billszone members, this is my first post, and I think this board is fantastic!

Welcome! There's some anti-Canadian sentiment here as you can see, and so far, you've done a good job of ignoring it. Have fun and visit often.

[OpIv37]

I am definitely planning on hitting the opener this year! Last season, I only made it down three times (I was finishing my Masters so I needed to devote a LITTLE bit of time to that!) but now I am all finished, and hope to see the Bills live more often. We have quite the travelling group too. Where do Zoners meet before the games?

lucky bastard- I have to ruin one more football season with studying before I'll have mine.

[Bert102176]

I agree with THATHURMANATOR

[BFBills]

yah people need to not be mean, i dont want a team in canada but im not all F*** you budyy go to H**L you know? Nice to see you Billscusey

[Dozerdog]

If the NFL wanted to expand by adding a team to each division, I wouldn't have a problem with it.


You could pick 6 from these cities= Los Angeles, San Antonio, Toronto, Vancouver, Mexico City, Portland, Sacremento, even Millwaukee (since the Packers have a fanatical base)

[The_Philster]

If the NFL wanted to expand by adding a team to each division, I wouldn't have a problem with it.


You could pick 6 from these cities= Los Angeles, San Antonio, Toronto, Vancouver, Mexico City, Portland, Sacremento, even Millwaukee (since the Packers have a fanatical base)

There are 8 divisions now:secret:

[SABURZFAN]

i'm not saying that toronto couldn't support an NFL team but then you're running into currency problems.the Canadian dollar isn't the same as the American dollar.also,Canada has a luxury tax system that is different from America.overall,i think it would be a bad idea.

[SABURZFAN]

welcome to The Zone Billscusey. :up:

[LifetimeBillsFan]

While I don't think that it is as bad a question as some folks here obviously do, there are a couple of reasons why it won't happen--one of which Saburzfan touched on above:


To begin with, if I am not mistaken, the NFL made an agreement with the CFL through the "good offices" of the governments of Canada and the US some years ago (there were discussions about it following the demise of the USFL) in which they agreed that two league would not infringe on the integrity of one another: i.e., the NFL would not expand into Canada or raid Canadian rosters without compensation to the CFL teams and the CFL would not raid NFL rosters or draft choices or interfere with the local TV deals, etc. of NFL teams located on the border. If I recall correctly, the Canadian government was very concerned that NFL expansion into Canada would kill the CFL and have a deleterious impact on the local economy. The NFL was concerned about losing high-profile players to the CFL in a bidding war (at the time the Canadian dollar was much closer in value to the US dollar) and alienating the government of a country that could hamper its marketing efforts. As far as I know, this "gentleman's agreement" between the CFL and the NFL still exists and, if it does, it would preclude any possibility of placing an NFL franchise in a Canadian city--especially one, like Toronto, where a CFL franchise exists.

Putting a NFL franchise in Toronto would kill both the CFL and, in all likelihood, the Buffalo Bills. In addition, it could lead to a move to put a team in Vancouver, which would probably kill the Seattle Seahawks franchise--another small market franchise with even less local support than Buffalo--as well. This would not be a good move for the NFL or for the football fans of Canada.

Additionally, as Saburzfan pointed out, placing an NFL franchise in Canada would create problems arising from the currency exchange rates. Even if it were agreed that the players and staff would have to be paid in US currency in order to make salary cap accounting consistent, etc., differences in local currency could either place the Canadian franchise at such a great disadvantage or advantage in recruiting and keeping free agents that it could destroy the competitive balance of the NFL--something that the current commissioner and many of the owners have labored hard to maintain and increase. Additionally, local revenues, which are an essential element of the profitability of a NFL franchise, would be severely impacted by the exchange rate--which might make it difficult to maintain a stable ownership situation for the Canadian franchise. It's not that Toronto doesn't have the population or the money necessary to make it an attractive market for the NFL, but, with such a disparity in the exchange rate, it might be difficult to generate the kind of revenues, in US dollars, that would be required to keep a stable ownership group in place. The last thing that the NFL would want to do is move a franchise to Toronto or create a new one there and, then, be forced to move it a few years later because they could not find ownership that would be satisfied with the revenues generated by the franchise.

While Buffalo is probably not an ideal market for the NFL, it has been a stable franchise with fierce local support--despite the local economy being depressed for years. Why ruin such a franchise or force it to move--which would surely be the what would happen if there was a NFL franchise in Toronto--in order to take such a large gamble--that a NFL franchise could succeed and remain stable in Toronto? Such a move would be very risky and would make very little sense, especially if it also resulted in the ruin of the CFL and raised the ire of the Canadian government.

[Billscusey]

LifetimeBillsfan.......that was a great post! Sadly, although I wish it wasn't so, I think there is a lot of truth in what you say. The economics of the sport seem to doom areas like Toronto even though they may look profitable on the surface.

That's ok, cuz we can still make the short drive across the border - with our passports! ; ) - and see the boys play.

One question I have always had for Buffalo residents is "How do you feel about sharing your team with fans not only from another city, but another country?"

I have always found B-LO residents to be very polite, although I wonder if they know I'm from up north. Part of what makes a hometown team special is that it represents YOUR hometown, I guess in a way no one likes to share.

Just looking for your thoughts.

[The_Philster]

One question I have always had for Buffalo residents is "How do you feel about sharing your team with fans not only from another city, but another country?"not an issue at all...unless we're talking about the Bills playing regular season games up there

[djjimkelly]

u know im canadian and am extatic with the bills being my team. however i get a bit bent out of shpae when fellow buffalo fans hack on us. ill give u some facts. toronto is the 5th biggest market in north america if u dont include mexico. behind NY LA chicago and houston. so this we only love hockey makes me furious. now do i want a team in toronto sure as long it doesnt effect the bills. next any bills fan who curses us from the city of buffalo why dont u phone up the bills and ask them what % of tickets are sold in canada. then start to curse. god when i read this board sometimes i feel like there is animosity towards us canadians for supporting the bills. either u dont understand the bills need us as much as us canadians need the bills or your not that intelligent. ill go with the latter! and to those american bills fans who dont curse us canadians sorry this isnt aimed at U

[BuffaloRanger]

The only problem I have with Canadian Bills fans is that they are also Sabre haters. I don't expect them to be Sabre fans if they are from Toronto. But it gets annoying when they go to the Sabres forum on this MB and bash on the Sabres - mostly because I can't totally hate them - becasue they are still Bills fans. It's vexing.

What really pisses me off about Canadians is the non-Bills fans that show up at the Ralph by the busload to cheer for whoever the Bills are playing. I honestly think they just come down to cause trouble. I went to a Raiders game a couple seasons ago. I walked through the whole parking lot - nothing but red and blue. Went to my endzone seats - nothing but silver and black. I didn't walk throught the bus parking lot before the game. They had all come down in buses from Canada.

Although TV market size was the #1 factor in Buffalo not getting a MLB team, Toronto and Cleveland having baseball teams withing 3 hours was certainly a contributing factor.

[Canadian'eh!]

Some good comments here... some bad.

Tailgating wouldn't be a problem...calling our alcohol laws archaic compared to the US is laughable. drinking age is 19 not 21. And Like tailgating in the US any public drinking laws would be ignored for tailgating sake.

Money is another issue that is overblown. The CDN dollar has made large gains on the US over the pas 2 years... and last report i heard was that it is scheduled to actually PASS the USD in the next 5 years. Paying the players in USD would be fine. Tax wise, the NBA TRIED to show the players that their actual taxes in Toronto will in the end be LESS than a player in NYC, but the stigma is still there admittedly.

One more issue is LIVNG in TO... where would you rather live? Green Bay or Toronto? No offence to Buffalo, but i'm taking TO there too. Better clubs, better women, cleaner city.... As a young rich athelete there would be no better city for you.

That being said i DO NOT want a team in TO. It would hurt Buffalo for sure, and it's not like the Bills are the "safest" team in the NFL. Torontonians would be annoying as hell with an NFL team too... brutal. Anyway.. there would be no sweet local deal.. no public funding... no new stadiums (thought he Rogers Center should be enough for a while).. Anyway... typical TO that they can't just have a CFL team they need to be "american"....

LA needs a team more than TO anyway.

What I would like to see is the NFL to make a deal with the CFL to become a sort of minor league to the NFL. send players there for developmental purposes and what not.
this would improve the quality of the CFL product and provide a link to the NFL that would create more CDN NFL fans. look at all the "fans" that followeed Doug Flutie to the NFL.

anyway, no team in TO. The Bills are TO's team.

[lordofgun]

I think a Toronto team could be a great rivalry for the Bills.

Welcome Billscusey.

[lunatic_bills_fan]

Will never happen...no players would want to play there. Players would have to be paid in US Currency and that would hurt the franchise. It's the same problem that the NBA has had up there...plua, no players want to live up there either. I highly doubt it ever happens.

I mean I love the Bills but This is hilarious, Are you suggesting that Buffalo "the bowles" of NY (no offence to all), is a better place to live than Toronto? The US currency issue is rather interesting, as the US dolar continues to crumble, the Canadian dollar is no that far off. I'm not saying that a team would be destined to succeed, just that your arguments are quite
weak.

[THATHURMANATOR]

I mean I love the Bills but This is hilarious, Are you suggesting that Buffalo "the bowles" of NY (no offence to all), is a better place to live than Toronto? The US currency issue is rather interesting, as the US dolar continues to crumble, the Canadian dollar is no that far off. I'm not saying that a team would be destined to succeed, just that your arguments are quite
weak.
Where did he say that Buffalo was a nicer city than toronto???

[THATHURMANATOR]

He has very valid points. I am sure players wouldn't have any problem living there but being paid in another currency could pose some problems.

[Dozerdog]

Raptors- aren't NBA players paid in American Dollars?

[lunatic_bills_fan]

He has very valid points. I am sure players wouldn't have any problem living there but being paid in another currency could pose some problems.

I dont think the actual currancy is an issue, as their pay probably only goes to a bank account anyway. Not like they are getting bags of loonies and toonies :funny:
The only logistical problem that I see is how would a new passport rule effect things?

[lunatic_bills_fan]

Raptors- aren't NBA players paid in American Dollars?
yes sir they are

[Nighthawk]

He has very valid points. I am sure players wouldn't have any problem living there but being paid in another currency could pose some problems.


Thanks THATHURMANATOR.

As for you Lunatic ...my points all make sense...that is why you took them so hard. Toronto is a great city...but it is in Canada. No matter how many ways you spin it, no American born players want to play in Canada. It has been proven in the NBA and Hockey...didn't you used have the Memphis Grizzlies up there? Oh yeah, how about the Expos...

Canada just doesn't work when it comes to American sports...I'm sorry, but that is a fact of life.

[lunatic_bills_fan]

Thanks THATHURMANATOR.

As for you Lunatic ...my points all make sense...that is why you took them so hard. Toronto is a great city...but it is in Canada. No matter how many ways you spin it, no American born players want to play in Canada. It has been proven in the NBA and Hockey...didn't you used have the Memphis Grizzlies up there? Oh yeah, how about the Expos...

Canada just doesn't work when it comes to American sports...I'm sorry, but that is a fact of life.

C'mon man, its ok to be proud to be american, I respect that, just dont be blind. The expos just werent in a good market, it had nothing to do with the players, I never once heard unitl the last 2 years say anything bad about Montreal. I guess Joe Carter and Paul Molitor and oh about another 14 americans just hated to win back-to-back world series. Because tonnes of other teams do that. Please dont mention hockey as an American sport, that is a little of base.

[HurryUpTom]

Tailgating wouldn't be a problem...calling our alcohol laws archaic compared to the US is laughable. drinking age is 19 not 21. And Like tailgating in the US any public drinking laws would be ignored for tailgating sake.

I'm Canadian (I grew up in the GTA, but now live in NYC). If you think Ontario is anywhere near as open-minded about alcohol as the States, I don't know if you've been there since you were under 21. Even then, it's not like it's hard to get a drink in either area when you're under 16 let alone under 20.

In NY, bars stay open way later, you can buy alcohol just about anywhere instead of at a government run operation, buybacks are pretty much standard as opposed to something that need to be explained to the average bar patron, open bar events are not prohibitted by law, etc., etc.

And regarding tailgating ... let me guess ... you didn't attend the SARS event, did you? If you did, think back and remember how difficult it was to get a drink (half hour lineups for the beer tents, no beer tents close to the stage, etc.) and that was supposed to be a time when Toronto was trying to put on a party (great concert by the way ... AC/DC put on one of the best all-time performances).

Also, didn't Wasaga Beach of all places just cancel a summer event (name slips my mind) because people were getting drunk and camping?

No, I don't think tailgating would fly ... otherwise, they'd be doing it more openly at Ti-Cats games.

[pleasesavedrew]

its not the international football league

[Billscusey]

Thanks to everyone who has participated in this discussion. I is interesting to hear from both Yanks and Canucks on this issue. Even though we can't all see eye to eye on every point discussed, I think we can all agree on the list below:

1. Relations between Americans and Canadians in the Buffalo/Toronto areas are probably the strongest compared to other American/Canadian border locations (and the Bills play a huge part in this close relationship).

2. No one, not even us Canadians, would like to see an NFL franchise in Toronto if it threatens the future of da' Bills.

3. Buffalo people are just as fun to hang with as T.O. people (even though you talk with slight accents that we aren't quite used to, it's all good!). During one Buffalo road trip, my group ran into a group from Buffalo that was actually coming into Canada to hit the casino in Niagara. We talked about the US election (they didn't understand what happened either! LOL) and other Canadian/American issues. It was great!

4. The combination of religious American and Canadian Bills fans will keep the Ralph sold out until the end of time (even though the league will STILL find a way to justify stealing our team away from us!)

and finally.....

5. American or Canadian, we all agree that J.P. Losman WILL USHER US TO THE PROMISE LAND!!!

[McClane]

Some of you shouldn't talk **** about Canada or Canadians...

The Bills wouldn't be alive in Buffalo if it wasn't for us...

Plus, we're all on the same side here, don't alienate with your ignorance...

[LifetimeBillsFan]

Thanks to everyone who has participated in this discussion. I is interesting to hear from both Yanks and Canucks on this issue. Even though we can't all see eye to eye on every point discussed, I think we can all agree on the list below:

1. Relations between Americans and Canadians in the Buffalo/Toronto areas are probably the strongest compared to other American/Canadian border locations (and the Bills play a huge part in this close relationship).

2. No one, not even us Canadians, would like to see an NFL franchise in Toronto if it threatens the future of da' Bills.

3. Buffalo people are just as fun to hang with as T.O. people (even though you talk with slight accents that we aren't quite used to, it's all good!). During one Buffalo road trip, my group ran into a group from Buffalo that was actually coming into Canada to hit the casino in Niagara. We talked about the US election (they didn't understand what happened either! LOL) and other Canadian/American issues. It was great!

4. The combination of religious American and Canadian Bills fans will keep the Ralph sold out until the end of time (even though the league will STILL find a way to justify stealing our team away from us!)

and finally.....

5. American or Canadian, we all agree that J.P. Losman WILL USHER US TO THE PROMISE LAND!!!
Well put!!!

I would just like to add that as much as I love my country as an American, growing up in Buffalo, with family living in both countries, I also learned to love Canada and Canadians as well.

As I read some of the posts in this thread I couldn't help laughing, though: because it reminded me of the kind of argument that happens between brothers. Despite the nitpicking on both sides, underneath it all I think that there is a great deal of respect and affection. And, in that, I see the proof of Billscusey's first point above.

As for those who raised objections to my points about the currency differences--some of which were quite valid (especially as the demand for Canadian oil increases)--I think you may have missed my main point in that regard: it's not that one currency is superior or inferior to the other necessarily, but the fact that the two currencies fluctuate against one another that complicates matters by making it much more difficult to predict future income and expenses than it would be if one were using a single currency across the board. Even if the players were paid in US currency, fluctuations in the currencies relative to one another would impact the ability of both players and ownership to predict the relative value of contracts, etc. over time. While these are not insurmountable problems, they pose complications that ownership, the league office and some players may simply not want to deal with.

Toronto has been a bigger market and, in certain ways, a much more attractive city than Buffalo for some years now. But, given the history of Canadian franchises in American sports leagues and the fact that the NFL can have access to Canadian fans in the Toronto market without taking the risks of placing a franchise in Toronto, it is unlikely that the NFL would move a franchise into the city--particularly when the LA market, potentially the largest in the US, does not have a NFL franchise at this point.

While that may change at some point in the future, for now, I think that Bills fans on both sides of the border should look past the little things that irritate them about the folks from the other side of the border and appreciate the fact that, together, we have helped to make and keep the Bills not only a viable NFL franchise, but a team that players enjoy playing for because of the passion of the team's fans and the support that they receive from them.