Bills offensive line

[Bill Brasky]

Where would you rate it amongst the other units in the NFL??

Still really concerns me the problems on the OL have not been addressed... and I really don't think Shelton is the answer.

[justasportsfan]

It's the only part of the team that needs fixing this year (well there's Lindell too). I believe it will get done before the season starts via the draft or FA. The bills are so close. TD is on his 5th year. He better get things done.

[LifetimeBillsFan]

I know that this will not give you any comfort, but I don't think that this is a question that anyone here can even begin to answer until at least 9/10/2005 because, at this point, none of us really know what the Bills offensive line is going to look like this season.

Based on my experience of watching the offensive lines that Coach McNally has coached over the last several years in New York and with the Bills last season, I will tell you that the offensive line that you will see at the end of the season will be better, as a whole, than the offensive line that you will see at the beginning of the season. Virtually every year I have seen him start with a different group of personnel--sometimes with as many as four new starters!--and develop them over the course of a season. Usually, his lines start out a noticeably better in one area of the game than the other--either pass-blocking or run-blocking (one year with the Giants his line couldn't pass-block at the beginning of the season, but was pretty good run-blocking; the next season, with three new starters, they couldn't run-block to save their lives at the beginning of the season, but were quite good at pass-blocking)--then, about a third of the way into the season, they start to improve noticeably in the area of the game where they were weak at the beginning of the season. About two-thirds of the way into the season, they go from being decent-to-good in both phases of the game to being good-to-very good.

Last season, with the Bills, that time-table was thrown off a bit because McNally never really had all of his offensive linemen together at practice during the preseason and it showed--especially early in the season, but even as the season progressed--so the Bills line never quite made it to being more than just barely decent last season. Still, as the season progressed, the O-line did become markedly better. Unfortunately, the one phase of the game where they lagged was in run-blocking--which is not a good thing when the team is supposed to be a power-running team! While the offensive line did a much better job of pass-blocking as the season wore on (as evidenced by the drop in the number of sacks they gave up, even though the Bills began to throw more as the season wore on), they never really became a good run-blocking unit. And, I believe that that accounts for some of the personnel changes that they have made in the off-season.

I can also tell you that it can be very difficult to judge how good one of Coach McNally's offensive lines will be by simply looking at the names of the offensive linemen on the team's roster. As a Bills fan, you may remember Dusty Ziegler. I think that it is fair to say that most Bills fans were hardly surprised or unhappy the day that the Bills finally cut Ziegler--as a Bill, he was unremarkable at best. But, after being picked up by the NY Giants, Ziegler became the starting center on the McNally-coached offensive line that went to the Super Bowl, protecting K.Collins, a QB only slightly more mobile than the unlamented D.Bledsoe. Lomas Brown, at 37 and long past his Pro Bowl days, was a starting OG on that same line.

Luke Pettigout was considered a bust by many writers in the NYC area press, but has become the indespensible anchor of the Giants offensive line after being coached by McNally. Mike Rosenthal was a late round afterthought who is now a key part of the Vikings offensive line. Nobody in the NYC area had ever heard of Rich Seubert or David Diehl before McNally literally took them off of the street and turned them into solid NFL starting offensive linemen. Seubert, Rosenthal and Pettigout were part of that SB team and were developed into starters after being back-ups. And, you saw what he did with M.Williams last season--how much better Williams got as the season progressed--even though Williams missed all of the mini-camps and a portion of the preseason.

Knowing what McNally has been able to do with players like this in the past, at this point it is impossible to say whether he feels that there is someone on the Bills roster at the moment or that the Bills might be able to pick up in the draft or as a FA that he could turn into a quality NFL starting offensive lineman. I don't know if there is or there isn't. Do you?

Without knowing that and without knowing what he, with a quarter of a century of experience as an offensive line coach, has in mind in terms of getting a group of offensive linemen together that will work together in the way that he envisions, I think that it is impossible to even begin to assess how good the Bills' offensive line will be this season or how well they will perform. I think that it is not just very much a work in progress, but a work that has barely even begun!

Is TD really "blowing smoke" when he denigrates Shelton and says that the Bills' coaches don't particularly like him or has McNally talked with Shelton and looked at tapes of him and decided that he wouldn't be a fit in the scheme or with the personnel that he wants to use? Is it possible that McNally has looked at tapes of T.Teague when he gave up all of those sacks as a LT for Denver and spotted something in his footwork (or something else that he was doing) that he thinks that he can correct so that T.Teague will become a much better pass-blocker for the Bills at LT than he was for Denver back then? Does McNally feel that Gandy, being a younger and more physical player, will be a better fit in a line whose forte is run-blocking than Marcus Price? Does he see something in McFarland or Peters or Bannan that makes him think that he can turn one of them into another Rich Seubert or Mike Rosenthal? Is there a kid in the draft that he wants TD to bring in because he sees the kid as becoming the anchor of the Bills offensive line for the next ten years?

I don't know the answers to these questions. And, neither, I suspect, does any Bills fan who posts here. But, without knowing what McNally and the rest of the Bills coaches and front office people are thinking, it is impossible to know what they intend to do--or why--with the offensive line between now and the first game of the season. Now, that may not make me feel very comfortable, but, for now, it is just something that I have to accept...and trust that Coach McNally will do his best to try to develop the Bills offensive line into as effective an offensive line as possible over the course of the season.

Will the Bills offensive line be as good as the KC offensive line has been? Probably not. But, then again, the Chiefs have invested a lot of money in their offensive linemen and, as a result, haven't been able to put the kind of money into their defense that the Bills have. The Pats haven't invested a lot of money or high draft picks in their offensive line: how good do you think their offensive line is? Can you honestly say that fans of any NFL team were green with envy when the Pats signed G.Mruczkowski, D.Koppen, T.Ashworth, R.Hochstein, S.Neal, etc.? If, instead of the Pats, the Bills had signed them, what would you have thought of the Bills FO for relying on them to fill key roles on the offensive line? How highly would you rate them? Would you have been comfortable going into training camp with that group forming the bulk of your team's offensive line? Well, guess what? Those guys all have a Super Bowl ring...something that a lot of first day draft picks and Pro Bowl offensive linemen do not have. And, they prove the point that a team does not have to have the most talented or best players at their positions to have a good offensive line that is capable of winning a Super Bowl.

[gobuffalo2007]

I would say we are right in the middle of the league with the offensive line.

[Tatonka]

I know that this will not give you any comfort, but I don't think that this is a question that anyone here can even begin to answer until at least 9/10/2005 because, at this point, none of us really know what the Bills offensive line is going to look like this season.

Based on my experience of watching the offensive lines that Coach McNally has coached over the last several years in New York and with the Bills last season, I will tell you that the offensive line that you will see at the end of the season will be better, as a whole, than the offensive line that you will see at the beginning of the season. Virtually every year I have seen him start with a different group of personnel--sometimes with as many as four new starters!--and develop them over the course of a season. Usually, his lines start out a noticeably better in one area of the game than the other--either pass-blocking or run-blocking (one year with the Giants his line couldn't pass-block at the beginning of the season, but was pretty good run-blocking; the next season, with three new starters, they couldn't run-block to save their lives at the beginning of the season, but were quite good at pass-blocking)--then, about a third of the way into the season, they start to improve noticeably in the area of the game where they were weak at the beginning of the season. About two-thirds of the way into the season, they go from being decent-to-good in both phases of the game to being good-to-very good.

Last season, with the Bills, that time-table was thrown off a bit because McNally never really had all of his offensive linemen together at practice during the preseason and it showed--especially early in the season, but even as the season progressed--so the Bills line never quite made it to being more than just barely decent last season. Still, as the season progressed, the O-line did become markedly better. Unfortunately, the one phase of the game where they lagged was in run-blocking--which is not a good thing when the team is supposed to be a power-running team! While the offensive line did a much better job of pass-blocking as the season wore on (as evidenced by the drop in the number of sacks they gave up, even though the Bills began to throw more as the season wore on), they never really became a good run-blocking unit. And, I believe that that accounts for some of the personnel changes that they have made in the off-season.

I can also tell you that it can be very difficult to judge how good one of Coach McNally's offensive lines will be by simply looking at the names of the offensive linemen on the team's roster. As a Bills fan, you may remember Dusty Ziegler. I think that it is fair to say that most Bills fans were hardly surprised or unhappy the day that the Bills finally cut Ziegler--as a Bill, he was unremarkable at best. But, after being picked up by the NY Giants, Ziegler became the starting center on the McNally-coached offensive line that went to the Super Bowl, protecting K.Collins, a QB only slightly more mobile than the unlamented D.Bledsoe. Lomas Brown, at 37 and long past his Pro Bowl days, was a starting OG on that same line.

Luke Pettigout was considered a bust by many writers in the NYC area press, but has become the indespensible anchor of the Giants offensive line after being coached by McNally. Mike Rosenthal was a late round afterthought who is now a key part of the Vikings offensive line. Nobody in the NYC area had ever heard of Rich Seubert or David Diehl before McNally literally took them off of the street and turned them into solid NFL starting offensive linemen. Seubert, Rosenthal and Pettigout were part of that SB team and were developed into starters after being back-ups. And, you saw what he did with M.Williams last season--how much better Williams got as the season progressed--even though Williams missed all of the mini-camps and a portion of the preseason.

Knowing what McNally has been able to do with players like this in the past, at this point it is impossible to say whether he feels that there is someone on the Bills roster at the moment or that the Bills might be able to pick up in the draft or as a FA that he could turn into a quality NFL starting offensive lineman. I don't know if there is or there isn't. Do you?

Without knowing that and without knowing what he, with a quarter of a century of experience as an offensive line coach, has in mind in terms of getting a group of offensive linemen together that will work together in the way that he envisions, I think that it is impossible to even begin to assess how good the Bills' offensive line will be this season or how well they will perform. I think that it is not just very much a work in progress, but a work that has barely even begun!

Is TD really "blowing smoke" when he denigrates Shelton and says that the Bills' coaches don't particularly like him or has McNally talked with Shelton and looked at tapes of him and decided that he wouldn't be a fit in the scheme or with the personnel that he wants to use? Is it possible that McNally has looked at tapes of T.Teague when he gave up all of those sacks as a LT for Denver and spotted something in his footwork (or something else that he was doing) that he thinks that he can correct so that T.Teague will become a much better pass-blocker for the Bills at LT than he was for Denver back then? Does McNally feel that Gandy, being a younger and more physical player, will be a better fit in a line whose forte is run-blocking than Marcus Price? Does he see something in McFarland or Peters or Bannan that makes him think that he can turn one of them into another Rich Seubert or Mike Rosenthal? Is there a kid in the draft that he wants TD to bring in because he sees the kid as becoming the anchor of the Bills offensive line for the next ten years?

I don't know the answers to these questions. And, neither, I suspect, does any Bills fan who posts here. But, without knowing what McNally and the rest of the Bills coaches and front office people are thinking, it is impossible to know what they intend to do--or why--with the offensive line between now and the first game of the season. Now, that may not make me feel very comfortable, but, for now, it is just something that I have to accept...and trust that Coach McNally will do his best to try to develop the Bills offensive line into as effective an offensive line as possible over the course of the season.

Will the Bills offensive line be as good as the KC offensive line has been? Probably not. But, then again, the Chiefs have invested a lot of money in their offensive linemen and, as a result, haven't been able to put the kind of money into their defense that the Bills have. The Pats haven't invested a lot of money or high draft picks in their offensive line: how good do you think their offensive line is? Can you honestly say that fans of any NFL team were green with envy when the Pats signed G.Mruczkowski, D.Koppen, T.Ashworth, R.Hochstein, S.Neal, etc.? If, instead of the Pats, the Bills had signed them, what would you have thought of the Bills FO for relying on them to fill key roles on the offensive line? How highly would you rate them? Would you have been comfortable going into training camp with that group forming the bulk of your team's offensive line? Well, guess what? Those guys all have a Super Bowl ring...something that a lot of first day draft picks and Pro Bowl offensive linemen do not have. And, they prove the point that a team does not have to have the most talented or best players at their positions to have a good offensive line that is capable of winning a Super Bowl.

"so what your saying is... there's a chance..." - Lloyd, Dumb and Dumber.

great post.

:posrep:

[don137]

I know that this will not give you any comfort, but I don't think that this is a question that anyone here can even begin to answer until at least 9/10/2005 because, at this point, none of us really know what the Bills offensive line is going to look like this season.

Based on my experience of watching the offensive lines that Coach McNally has coached over the last several years in New York and with the Bills last season, I will tell you that the offensive line that you will see at the end of the season will be better, as a whole, than the offensive line that you will see at the beginning of the season. Virtually every year I have seen him start with a different group of personnel--sometimes with as many as four new starters!--and develop them over the course of a season. Usually, his lines start out a noticeably better in one area of the game than the other--either pass-blocking or run-blocking (one year with the Giants his line couldn't pass-block at the beginning of the season, but was pretty good run-blocking; the next season, with three new starters, they couldn't run-block to save their lives at the beginning of the season, but were quite good at pass-blocking)--then, about a third of the way into the season, they start to improve noticeably in the area of the game where they were weak at the beginning of the season. About two-thirds of the way into the season, they go from being decent-to-good in both phases of the game to being good-to-very good.

Last season, with the Bills, that time-table was thrown off a bit because McNally never really had all of his offensive linemen together at practice during the preseason and it showed--especially early in the season, but even as the season progressed--so the Bills line never quite made it to being more than just barely decent last season. Still, as the season progressed, the O-line did become markedly better. Unfortunately, the one phase of the game where they lagged was in run-blocking--which is not a good thing when the team is supposed to be a power-running team! While the offensive line did a much better job of pass-blocking as the season wore on (as evidenced by the drop in the number of sacks they gave up, even though the Bills began to throw more as the season wore on), they never really became a good run-blocking unit. And, I believe that that accounts for some of the personnel changes that they have made in the off-season.

I can also tell you that it can be very difficult to judge how good one of Coach McNally's offensive lines will be by simply looking at the names of the offensive linemen on the team's roster. As a Bills fan, you may remember Dusty Ziegler. I think that it is fair to say that most Bills fans were hardly surprised or unhappy the day that the Bills finally cut Ziegler--as a Bill, he was unremarkable at best. But, after being picked up by the NY Giants, Ziegler became the starting center on the McNally-coached offensive line that went to the Super Bowl, protecting K.Collins, a QB only slightly more mobile than the unlamented D.Bledsoe. Lomas Brown, at 37 and long past his Pro Bowl days, was a starting OG on that same line.

Luke Pettigout was considered a bust by many writers in the NYC area press, but has become the indespensible anchor of the Giants offensive line after being coached by McNally. Mike Rosenthal was a late round afterthought who is now a key part of the Vikings offensive line. Nobody in the NYC area had ever heard of Rich Seubert or David Diehl before McNally literally took them off of the street and turned them into solid NFL starting offensive linemen. Seubert, Rosenthal and Pettigout were part of that SB team and were developed into starters after being back-ups. And, you saw what he did with M.Williams last season--how much better Williams got as the season progressed--even though Williams missed all of the mini-camps and a portion of the preseason.

Knowing what McNally has been able to do with players like this in the past, at this point it is impossible to say whether he feels that there is someone on the Bills roster at the moment or that the Bills might be able to pick up in the draft or as a FA that he could turn into a quality NFL starting offensive lineman. I don't know if there is or there isn't. Do you?

Without knowing that and without knowing what he, with a quarter of a century of experience as an offensive line coach, has in mind in terms of getting a group of offensive linemen together that will work together in the way that he envisions, I think that it is impossible to even begin to assess how good the Bills' offensive line will be this season or how well they will perform. I think that it is not just very much a work in progress, but a work that has barely even begun!

Is TD really "blowing smoke" when he denigrates Shelton and says that the Bills' coaches don't particularly like him or has McNally talked with Shelton and looked at tapes of him and decided that he wouldn't be a fit in the scheme or with the personnel that he wants to use? Is it possible that McNally has looked at tapes of T.Teague when he gave up all of those sacks as a LT for Denver and spotted something in his footwork (or something else that he was doing) that he thinks that he can correct so that T.Teague will become a much better pass-blocker for the Bills at LT than he was for Denver back then? Does McNally feel that Gandy, being a younger and more physical player, will be a better fit in a line whose forte is run-blocking than Marcus Price? Does he see something in McFarland or Peters or Bannan that makes him think that he can turn one of them into another Rich Seubert or Mike Rosenthal? Is there a kid in the draft that he wants TD to bring in because he sees the kid as becoming the anchor of the Bills offensive line for the next ten years?

I don't know the answers to these questions. And, neither, I suspect, does any Bills fan who posts here. But, without knowing what McNally and the rest of the Bills coaches and front office people are thinking, it is impossible to know what they intend to do--or why--with the offensive line between now and the first game of the season. Now, that may not make me feel very comfortable, but, for now, it is just something that I have to accept...and trust that Coach McNally will do his best to try to develop the Bills offensive line into as effective an offensive line as possible over the course of the season.

Will the Bills offensive line be as good as the KC offensive line has been? Probably not. But, then again, the Chiefs have invested a lot of money in their offensive linemen and, as a result, haven't been able to put the kind of money into their defense that the Bills have. The Pats haven't invested a lot of money or high draft picks in their offensive line: how good do you think their offensive line is? Can you honestly say that fans of any NFL team were green with envy when the Pats signed G.Mruczkowski, D.Koppen, T.Ashworth, R.Hochstein, S.Neal, etc.? If, instead of the Pats, the Bills had signed them, what would you have thought of the Bills FO for relying on them to fill key roles on the offensive line? How highly would you rate them? Would you have been comfortable going into training camp with that group forming the bulk of your team's offensive line? Well, guess what? Those guys all have a Super Bowl ring...something that a lot of first day draft picks and Pro Bowl offensive linemen do not have. And, they prove the point that a team does not have to have the most talented or best players at their positions to have a good offensive line that is capable of winning a Super Bowl.

When I saw the length of the reply I thought you were Wys in disguise but then when I read it you were the anti-wys...A long poster who is an optimist instead of a pessimist...Great post

[mysticsoto]

I agree 100% and am willing to give McNally the opportunity to do something with the personnel we have. I especially like that we can go into this draft taking the "best player" available in each round!!! When was the last time we were able to do that???

[Patti120]

Great Post Lifetime. Lengthy but well worth the read. I thoroughly enjoy the optimism.

:bikerbabe

[MDFINFAN]

I know that this will not give you any comfort, but I don't think that this is a question that anyone here can even begin to answer until at least 9/10/2005 because, at this point, none of us really know what the Bills offensive line is going to look like this season.

Based on my experience of watching the offensive lines that Coach McNally has coached over the last several years in New York and with the Bills last season, I will tell you that the offensive line that you will see at the end of the season will be better, as a whole, than the offensive line that you will see at the beginning of the season. Virtually every year I have seen him start with a different group of personnel--sometimes with as many as four new starters!--and develop them over the course of a season. Usually, his lines start out a noticeably better in one area of the game than the other--either pass-blocking or run-blocking (one year with the Giants his line couldn't pass-block at the beginning of the season, but was pretty good run-blocking; the next season, with three new starters, they couldn't run-block to save their lives at the beginning of the season, but were quite good at pass-blocking)--then, about a third of the way into the season, they start to improve noticeably in the area of the game where they were weak at the beginning of the season. About two-thirds of the way into the season, they go from being decent-to-good in both phases of the game to being good-to-very good.

Last season, with the Bills, that time-table was thrown off a bit because McNally never really had all of his offensive linemen together at practice during the preseason and it showed--especially early in the season, but even as the season progressed--so the Bills line never quite made it to being more than just barely decent last season. Still, as the season progressed, the O-line did become markedly better. Unfortunately, the one phase of the game where they lagged was in run-blocking--which is not a good thing when the team is supposed to be a power-running team! While the offensive line did a much better job of pass-blocking as the season wore on (as evidenced by the drop in the number of sacks they gave up, even though the Bills began to throw more as the season wore on), they never really became a good run-blocking unit. And, I believe that that accounts for some of the personnel changes that they have made in the off-season.

I can also tell you that it can be very difficult to judge how good one of Coach McNally's offensive lines will be by simply looking at the names of the offensive linemen on the team's roster. As a Bills fan, you may remember Dusty Ziegler. I think that it is fair to say that most Bills fans were hardly surprised or unhappy the day that the Bills finally cut Ziegler--as a Bill, he was unremarkable at best. But, after being picked up by the NY Giants, Ziegler became the starting center on the McNally-coached offensive line that went to the Super Bowl, protecting K.Collins, a QB only slightly more mobile than the unlamented D.Bledsoe. Lomas Brown, at 37 and long past his Pro Bowl days, was a starting OG on that same line.

Luke Pettigout was considered a bust by many writers in the NYC area press, but has become the indespensible anchor of the Giants offensive line after being coached by McNally. Mike Rosenthal was a late round afterthought who is now a key part of the Vikings offensive line. Nobody in the NYC area had ever heard of Rich Seubert or David Diehl before McNally literally took them off of the street and turned them into solid NFL starting offensive linemen. Seubert, Rosenthal and Pettigout were part of that SB team and were developed into starters after being back-ups. And, you saw what he did with M.Williams last season--how much better Williams got as the season progressed--even though Williams missed all of the mini-camps and a portion of the preseason.

Knowing what McNally has been able to do with players like this in the past, at this point it is impossible to say whether he feels that there is someone on the Bills roster at the moment or that the Bills might be able to pick up in the draft or as a FA that he could turn into a quality NFL starting offensive lineman. I don't know if there is or there isn't. Do you?

Without knowing that and without knowing what he, with a quarter of a century of experience as an offensive line coach, has in mind in terms of getting a group of offensive linemen together that will work together in the way that he envisions, I think that it is impossible to even begin to assess how good the Bills' offensive line will be this season or how well they will perform. I think that it is not just very much a work in progress, but a work that has barely even begun!

Is TD really "blowing smoke" when he denigrates Shelton and says that the Bills' coaches don't particularly like him or has McNally talked with Shelton and looked at tapes of him and decided that he wouldn't be a fit in the scheme or with the personnel that he wants to use? Is it possible that McNally has looked at tapes of T.Teague when he gave up all of those sacks as a LT for Denver and spotted something in his footwork (or something else that he was doing) that he thinks that he can correct so that T.Teague will become a much better pass-blocker for the Bills at LT than he was for Denver back then? Does McNally feel that Gandy, being a younger and more physical player, will be a better fit in a line whose forte is run-blocking than Marcus Price? Does he see something in McFarland or Peters or Bannan that makes him think that he can turn one of them into another Rich Seubert or Mike Rosenthal? Is there a kid in the draft that he wants TD to bring in because he sees the kid as becoming the anchor of the Bills offensive line for the next ten years?

I don't know the answers to these questions. And, neither, I suspect, does any Bills fan who posts here. But, without knowing what McNally and the rest of the Bills coaches and front office people are thinking, it is impossible to know what they intend to do--or why--with the offensive line between now and the first game of the season. Now, that may not make me feel very comfortable, but, for now, it is just something that I have to accept...and trust that Coach McNally will do his best to try to develop the Bills offensive line into as effective an offensive line as possible over the course of the season.

Will the Bills offensive line be as good as the KC offensive line has been? Probably not. But, then again, the Chiefs have invested a lot of money in their offensive linemen and, as a result, haven't been able to put the kind of money into their defense that the Bills have. The Pats haven't invested a lot of money or high draft picks in their offensive line: how good do you think their offensive line is? Can you honestly say that fans of any NFL team were green with envy when the Pats signed G.Mruczkowski, D.Koppen, T.Ashworth, R.Hochstein, S.Neal, etc.? If, instead of the Pats, the Bills had signed them, what would you have thought of the Bills FO for relying on them to fill key roles on the offensive line? How highly would you rate them? Would you have been comfortable going into training camp with that group forming the bulk of your team's offensive line? Well, guess what? Those guys all have a Super Bowl ring...something that a lot of first day draft picks and Pro Bowl offensive linemen do not have. And, they prove the point that a team does not have to have the most talented or best players at their positions to have a good offensive line that is capable of winning a Super Bowl.


Man I've read a couple of your posts now and it's slowing down the number of responds I can make to other threads, this is WYS 2, this post is sane, good research, and basically telling everyone, there's no answer to the original question. But based on present personnel and what they did last year, are they at their ceiling, or can it move higher. I thought giving up your starting LT would be a detriment to you guys, as we've found in Miami it's hard to find a replacement if you team wins a lot and never get a high pick. Unfortunately this year we get a high pick, but no concenus high pick tackle in the draft. You guys may end up paying a boat load of money for a FA to get a good one, something Miami hasn't done and thus haven't had a anchor at the position since Web left. Teague is intriguing to say the least, and I think has surpassed his ceiling, which wasn't that high in the first place. For me, I hope JT has a field day, but you do have a mobile QB which might help your OL, by buying time.

[LifetimeBillsFan]

Thanks for the kind words and positive rep!

Hey, folks, "Ya gotta believe!"

But, it is more than just optimism or blind belief--it comes from having had the opportunity to see Coach McNally have to put offensive lines together here in with the Giants from absolutely NOTHING, with no help from the front office. In the time he was here the Giants drafted three offensive linemen--Pettigout, Rosenthal and Hatch (who suffered a serious shoulder injury before he ever played a game). He was working with UFAs, waiver wire pick-ups and, literally, guys off of the street. And, except for his last year with the Giants--when he lost three of his starters by the third game and was forced to play four "street free agents"--McNally managed to put together offensive lines that were decent-to-pretty good by the last third of the season. Now, as he, himself, has said, he's not a miracle worker and, as we saw last season, he can't turn "a sow's ear into a silk purse", but the man knows his business and is as better at it than just about anyone else. That's why I have a lot of faith in him. And, now that he has been here awhile and had a chance to actually see the players that he has on the roster practice and play, I have to believe that he knows what he has and what he thinks that he needs to get the job done.

Now, I don't know what that is or what McNally's thinking is or whether he will get everything that he wants from the front office--and, as a result, I'm not going to say, let alone guarantee that the Bills' offensive line is going to be great this season. But, based on what I have seen him do in the past, I trust him and, barring serious injuries, expect him to put together an offensive line this season that will be better by the end of this season than the one that the Bills had at the end of last season. And, I'm basing that on his past history moreso than on mere optimism or blind faith.

So, yes, Tatonka, there is a chance!

[chubluv]

I know that this will not give you any comfort, but I don't think that this is a question that anyone here can even begin to answer until at least 9/10/2005 because, at this point, none of us really know what the Bills offensive line is going to look like this season.

Based on my experience of watching the offensive lines that Coach McNally has coached over the last several years in New York and with the Bills last season, I will tell you that the offensive line that you will see at the end of the season will be better, as a whole, than the offensive line that you will see at the beginning of the season. Virtually every year I have seen him start with a different group of personnel--sometimes with as many as four new starters!--and develop them over the course of a season. Usually, his lines start out a noticeably better in one area of the game than the other--either pass-blocking or run-blocking (one year with the Giants his line couldn't pass-block at the beginning of the season, but was pretty good run-blocking; the next season, with three new starters, they couldn't run-block to save their lives at the beginning of the season, but were quite good at pass-blocking)--then, about a third of the way into the season, they start to improve noticeably in the area of the game where they were weak at the beginning of the season. About two-thirds of the way into the season, they go from being decent-to-good in both phases of the game to being good-to-very good.

Last season, with the Bills, that time-table was thrown off a bit because McNally never really had all of his offensive linemen together at practice during the preseason and it showed--especially early in the season, but even as the season progressed--so the Bills line never quite made it to being more than just barely decent last season. Still, as the season progressed, the O-line did become markedly better. Unfortunately, the one phase of the game where they lagged was in run-blocking--which is not a good thing when the team is supposed to be a power-running team! While the offensive line did a much better job of pass-blocking as the season wore on (as evidenced by the drop in the number of sacks they gave up, even though the Bills began to throw more as the season wore on), they never really became a good run-blocking unit. And, I believe that that accounts for some of the personnel changes that they have made in the off-season.

I can also tell you that it can be very difficult to judge how good one of Coach McNally's offensive lines will be by simply looking at the names of the offensive linemen on the team's roster. As a Bills fan, you may remember Dusty Ziegler. I think that it is fair to say that most Bills fans were hardly surprised or unhappy the day that the Bills finally cut Ziegler--as a Bill, he was unremarkable at best. But, after being picked up by the NY Giants, Ziegler became the starting center on the McNally-coached offensive line that went to the Super Bowl, protecting K.Collins, a QB only slightly more mobile than the unlamented D.Bledsoe. Lomas Brown, at 37 and long past his Pro Bowl days, was a starting OG on that same line.

Luke Pettigout was considered a bust by many writers in the NYC area press, but has become the indespensible anchor of the Giants offensive line after being coached by McNally. Mike Rosenthal was a late round afterthought who is now a key part of the Vikings offensive line. Nobody in the NYC area had ever heard of Rich Seubert or David Diehl before McNally literally took them off of the street and turned them into solid NFL starting offensive linemen. Seubert, Rosenthal and Pettigout were part of that SB team and were developed into starters after being back-ups. And, you saw what he did with M.Williams last season--how much better Williams got as the season progressed--even though Williams missed all of the mini-camps and a portion of the preseason.

Knowing what McNally has been able to do with players like this in the past, at this point it is impossible to say whether he feels that there is someone on the Bills roster at the moment or that the Bills might be able to pick up in the draft or as a FA that he could turn into a quality NFL starting offensive lineman. I don't know if there is or there isn't. Do you?

Without knowing that and without knowing what he, with a quarter of a century of experience as an offensive line coach, has in mind in terms of getting a group of offensive linemen together that will work together in the way that he envisions, I think that it is impossible to even begin to assess how good the Bills' offensive line will be this season or how well they will perform. I think that it is not just very much a work in progress, but a work that has barely even begun!

Is TD really "blowing smoke" when he denigrates Shelton and says that the Bills' coaches don't particularly like him or has McNally talked with Shelton and looked at tapes of him and decided that he wouldn't be a fit in the scheme or with the personnel that he wants to use? Is it possible that McNally has looked at tapes of T.Teague when he gave up all of those sacks as a LT for Denver and spotted something in his footwork (or something else that he was doing) that he thinks that he can correct so that T.Teague will become a much better pass-blocker for the Bills at LT than he was for Denver back then? Does McNally feel that Gandy, being a younger and more physical player, will be a better fit in a line whose forte is run-blocking than Marcus Price? Does he see something in McFarland or Peters or Bannan that makes him think that he can turn one of them into another Rich Seubert or Mike Rosenthal? Is there a kid in the draft that he wants TD to bring in because he sees the kid as becoming the anchor of the Bills offensive line for the next ten years?

I don't know the answers to these questions. And, neither, I suspect, does any Bills fan who posts here. But, without knowing what McNally and the rest of the Bills coaches and front office people are thinking, it is impossible to know what they intend to do--or why--with the offensive line between now and the first game of the season. Now, that may not make me feel very comfortable, but, for now, it is just something that I have to accept...and trust that Coach McNally will do his best to try to develop the Bills offensive line into as effective an offensive line as possible over the course of the season.

Will the Bills offensive line be as good as the KC offensive line has been? Probably not. But, then again, the Chiefs have invested a lot of money in their offensive linemen and, as a result, haven't been able to put the kind of money into their defense that the Bills have. The Pats haven't invested a lot of money or high draft picks in their offensive line: how good do you think their offensive line is? Can you honestly say that fans of any NFL team were green with envy when the Pats signed G.Mruczkowski, D.Koppen, T.Ashworth, R.Hochstein, S.Neal, etc.? If, instead of the Pats, the Bills had signed them, what would you have thought of the Bills FO for relying on them to fill key roles on the offensive line? How highly would you rate them? Would you have been comfortable going into training camp with that group forming the bulk of your team's offensive line? Well, guess what? Those guys all have a Super Bowl ring...something that a lot of first day draft picks and Pro Bowl offensive linemen do not have. And, they prove the point that a team does not have to have the most talented or best players at their positions to have a good offensive line that is capable of winning a Super Bowl.


WOW :clap: this is some good stuff :posrep:

[ryven]

When I saw the length of the reply I thought you were Wys in disguise but then when I read it you were the anti-wys...A long poster who is an optimist instead of a pessimist...Great post


I was thinking the samething

[L.A. Playa]

I have to agree that the success of the offensive line is not so much, but more based on coaching and offensive sceme. Most of the best offensive lines dont have "name" players or have players that constantly change. So really coaching, scheme, putting players in the position to succeed and motivating players is more important than a "name". From what I saw last year with this team I think a great coaching staff has been assembled and they are tailoring the team to be very successful this year.

[jamze132]

I know that this will not give you any comfort, but I don't think that this is a question that anyone here can even begin to answer until at least 9/10/2005 because, at this point, none of us really know what the Bills offensive line is going to look like this season.

Based on my experience of watching the offensive lines that Coach McNally has coached over the last several years in New York and with the Bills last season, I will tell you that the offensive line that you will see at the end of the season will be better, as a whole, than the offensive line that you will see at the beginning of the season. Virtually every year I have seen him start with a different group of personnel--sometimes with as many as four new starters!--and develop them over the course of a season. Usually, his lines start out a noticeably better in one area of the game than the other--either pass-blocking or run-blocking (one year with the Giants his line couldn't pass-block at the beginning of the season, but was pretty good run-blocking; the next season, with three new starters, they couldn't run-block to save their lives at the beginning of the season, but were quite good at pass-blocking)--then, about a third of the way into the season, they start to improve noticeably in the area of the game where they were weak at the beginning of the season. About two-thirds of the way into the season, they go from being decent-to-good in both phases of the game to being good-to-very good.

Last season, with the Bills, that time-table was thrown off a bit because McNally never really had all of his offensive linemen together at practice during the preseason and it showed--especially early in the season, but even as the season progressed--so the Bills line never quite made it to being more than just barely decent last season. Still, as the season progressed, the O-line did become markedly better. Unfortunately, the one phase of the game where they lagged was in run-blocking--which is not a good thing when the team is supposed to be a power-running team! While the offensive line did a much better job of pass-blocking as the season wore on (as evidenced by the drop in the number of sacks they gave up, even though the Bills began to throw more as the season wore on), they never really became a good run-blocking unit. And, I believe that that accounts for some of the personnel changes that they have made in the off-season.

I can also tell you that it can be very difficult to judge how good one of Coach McNally's offensive lines will be by simply looking at the names of the offensive linemen on the team's roster. As a Bills fan, you may remember Dusty Ziegler. I think that it is fair to say that most Bills fans were hardly surprised or unhappy the day that the Bills finally cut Ziegler--as a Bill, he was unremarkable at best. But, after being picked up by the NY Giants, Ziegler became the starting center on the McNally-coached offensive line that went to the Super Bowl, protecting K.Collins, a QB only slightly more mobile than the unlamented D.Bledsoe. Lomas Brown, at 37 and long past his Pro Bowl days, was a starting OG on that same line.

Luke Pettigout was considered a bust by many writers in the NYC area press, but has become the indespensible anchor of the Giants offensive line after being coached by McNally. Mike Rosenthal was a late round afterthought who is now a key part of the Vikings offensive line. Nobody in the NYC area had ever heard of Rich Seubert or David Diehl before McNally literally took them off of the street and turned them into solid NFL starting offensive linemen. Seubert, Rosenthal and Pettigout were part of that SB team and were developed into starters after being back-ups. And, you saw what he did with M.Williams last season--how much better Williams got as the season progressed--even though Williams missed all of the mini-camps and a portion of the preseason.

Knowing what McNally has been able to do with players like this in the past, at this point it is impossible to say whether he feels that there is someone on the Bills roster at the moment or that the Bills might be able to pick up in the draft or as a FA that he could turn into a quality NFL starting offensive lineman. I don't know if there is or there isn't. Do you?

Without knowing that and without knowing what he, with a quarter of a century of experience as an offensive line coach, has in mind in terms of getting a group of offensive linemen together that will work together in the way that he envisions, I think that it is impossible to even begin to assess how good the Bills' offensive line will be this season or how well they will perform. I think that it is not just very much a work in progress, but a work that has barely even begun!

Is TD really "blowing smoke" when he denigrates Shelton and says that the Bills' coaches don't particularly like him or has McNally talked with Shelton and looked at tapes of him and decided that he wouldn't be a fit in the scheme or with the personnel that he wants to use? Is it possible that McNally has looked at tapes of T.Teague when he gave up all of those sacks as a LT for Denver and spotted something in his footwork (or something else that he was doing) that he thinks that he can correct so that T.Teague will become a much better pass-blocker for the Bills at LT than he was for Denver back then? Does McNally feel that Gandy, being a younger and more physical player, will be a better fit in a line whose forte is run-blocking than Marcus Price? Does he see something in McFarland or Peters or Bannan that makes him think that he can turn one of them into another Rich Seubert or Mike Rosenthal? Is there a kid in the draft that he wants TD to bring in because he sees the kid as becoming the anchor of the Bills offensive line for the next ten years?

I don't know the answers to these questions. And, neither, I suspect, does any Bills fan who posts here. But, without knowing what McNally and the rest of the Bills coaches and front office people are thinking, it is impossible to know what they intend to do--or why--with the offensive line between now and the first game of the season. Now, that may not make me feel very comfortable, but, for now, it is just something that I have to accept...and trust that Coach McNally will do his best to try to develop the Bills offensive line into as effective an offensive line as possible over the course of the season.

Will the Bills offensive line be as good as the KC offensive line has been? Probably not. But, then again, the Chiefs have invested a lot of money in their offensive linemen and, as a result, haven't been able to put the kind of money into their defense that the Bills have. The Pats haven't invested a lot of money or high draft picks in their offensive line: how good do you think their offensive line is? Can you honestly say that fans of any NFL team were green with envy when the Pats signed G.Mruczkowski, D.Koppen, T.Ashworth, R.Hochstein, S.Neal, etc.? If, instead of the Pats, the Bills had signed them, what would you have thought of the Bills FO for relying on them to fill key roles on the offensive line? How highly would you rate them? Would you have been comfortable going into training camp with that group forming the bulk of your team's offensive line? Well, guess what? Those guys all have a Super Bowl ring...something that a lot of first day draft picks and Pro Bowl offensive linemen do not have. And, they prove the point that a team does not have to have the most talented or best players at their positions to have a good offensive line that is capable of winning a Super Bowl.

This guy sure does write a lot of stuff! I couldn't even finish it, but it sure is long.