bottom line

[frank74]

does anyone remember guys like kent hull, will wolford, house ballard, glen parker, pete metzelaars, john davis, even john fina. well, if you do then you remember what it was like having one of the most badazz lines in the NFL. and, if anyone can honestly say that the personnel we have today even resembles any of the studs mentioned, i ask you as a fellow bills fanatic myself, to set aside your pride for two minutes and recognize that once again, the buffalo bills organization has neglected this teams needs. and please, don't take this personally, it was never meant to be an attack on you....the fans.

[OpIv37]

TD has been neglecting the O line for years. I don't know what the point of having a great RB, two excellent receivers and a QB with tons of potential if you can't protect them.

[The Spaz]

Our o-line gave up significantly less sacks this year, and Willis still averaged 4.0 yards per carry with this supposed sorry o-line.

[BAM]

damn.. something just hit me in the...


ahhh **** the sky is falling again!

[DMBcrew36]

Our line will be sufficient enough with McNally coaching the line and a mobile JP Losman able to make plays faster than Blindsoe.

[OpIv37]

Our o-line gave up significantly less sacks this year, and Willis still averaged 4.0 yards per carry with this supposed sorry o-line.
and now we lost Jennings- Gandy and Anderson help but I don't think either one can replace JJ. In fact, I don't think either one even plays his position, so we're going to shuffle the whole O-line around again. And while they're going through the learning curve, we get JP and Willis banged up and dig ourselves an 0-4 hole just like last year. Sounds great.

[Mr. Cynical]

and now we lost Jennings- Gandy and Anderson help but I don't think either one can replace JJ. In fact, I don't think either one even plays his position, so we're going to shuffle the whole O-line around again. And while they're going through the learning curve, we get JP and Willis banged up and dig ourselves an 0-4 hole just like last year. Sounds great.
Wow....even more cynical than me. :;

But I hear ya...

[OpIv37]

damn.. something just hit me in the...


ahhh **** the sky is falling again!

Everyone kept saying that we'll get o-line help in the draft, we'll get shelton, it will be fine. Well, we don't have Shelton and we only got one fourth rounder from the draft, and he's a C when we already have two guys who can play C (Teague and Tucker). So where's all this help we're supposed to get? I can't believe anyone is really satisfied with this o-line except TD.

[The Spaz]

I think JJ was average at best besides there is no shuffling we replace the LG and LT which was often times shuffled around last year. The line will be better.

[BAM]

I think JJ was average at best besides there is no shuffling we replace the LG and LT which was often times shuffled around last year. The line will be better.

JJ wasn't all that.

Shelton is even less than "not all that." Still don't understand the love fest for this dude.

[ddaryl]

Our OL is improved over last years line, and we have much better depth.

[Meathead]

ahhh **** the sky is falling again!
I prefer to go with the much simpler:

Waaaaa.

[YardRat]

One of the rooks is going to start this year. Maybe even an undrafted FA.

[The Spaz]

One of the rooks is going to start this year. Maybe even an undrafted FA.

I can see that and McNAlly went out of his was to get Geir Gudmundson the 6'6" 315LB. OT.

[ArcticWildMan]

damn.. something just hit me in the...


ahhh **** the sky is falling again!


I hate it when that happens!!! :doh:

[Meathead]

No, it's gonna be Duke.

And that means this preseason's designated whipping boy will be the new LT, Trey Teague.

Let the assailing begin!

[BuffaloRanger]

Remember this was the team that pulled a guy nobody wanted (Lawrence Smith) off the street and made him a starter. Anybody can start on this line. It's full of very average, depth players. The line was dominated by every team that didn't pick in the Top 10 of the draft. There will be no smashmouth football.

Words like "sufficient" "good enough" "as good as last year" are not reassuring.

And why couldn't McNally, who most of you think can take a dumb as a rock TE and convert him to the most important position on the line (LT), make something of Shelton? I guess that was what he meant when he said "don't expect miracles."

The frustration lies in the fact that definite Oline improvement was there in Rds 2 + 3. A #3/4 R and a #3/4 TE will not help that much. Now we have to hope that a couple of these non-starters and journeymen on the Bills roster step up. That's alot to hope for.

[LifetimeBillsFan]

Every time I see a thread like this, I go crazy because I feel that I keep having to answer them by saying the same things that I have repeatedly said in previous replies to similar threads and I really don't like having to be so repetitious. Still, here we go again:

The Bills are not--I repeat, NOT--ignoring their offensive line. In fact, they are and have been in the process of rebuilding it since Coach McNally got here and had a chance to evaluate his personnel last season. It is a work-in-progress that has accelerated since the end of last season.

The problem for those who do not see what has been happening is that the Bills are rebuilding their offensive line in a different way than many fans want. Rather than taking highly-publicized, highly-rated players who may or may not be able to step into the starting line-up immediately with high draft picks--players who may or may not be able to adapt to the system and techniques that they want their offensive linemen to use--they are bringing in less experienced, raw players who are considered developmental projects that fit a certain type of personality and body-type that they are looking for--players that they can teach to do things the way they want them done without the player having to unlearn a lot of what he has already learned first.

Understandably, a lot of fans don't like this because they don't know who these players are and want immediate results which they expect will come more readily from players that they know who they expect will be more ready to play in the NFL. The problem with this is that there is no guarantee that a player taken on Day One of the draft will be ready to play effectively in the NFL right away (see the offensive linemen taken in the 1st Round last year) or that they will be willing or able to learn the system/techniques that the coaches want them to learn any faster than someone who is completely raw. Moreover, linemen who go higher in the draft cost more and it hurts the team a lot more, in terms of salary cap money and talent at other positions, when such a player takes longer to develop or never really works at becoming successful. There are a lot of offensive linemen who were taken on the first day of the draft who never were better than mediocre at best whose teams were saddled with them for years because of the contracts that they commanded for being drafted so highly. For every J.DeLamielleur, K.Hull, W.Wolford, etc. that the Bills have taken with first day draft picks, I can cite such flops as J.Reilly, B.Jarvis, M.Traynowicz, L.Burton, etc. And, the Bills have been more fortunate than a lot of teams with the offensive linemen that they have taken high in the draft!

In a previous post I detailed how, since McNally's arrival, the Bills have begun to replace the likes of R.Brown, J.Jennings, M.Sullivan--who for all of their talent were disappointing or ineffective--and others on their offensive line

[LifetimeBillsFan]

Damn! I hit the wrong button! Let me continue:

In a previous post (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?t=70370&page=2&pp=20) I detailed how, since McNally's arrival, the Bills have begun to replace the likes of R.Brown, J.Jennings, M.Sullivan--who for all of their talent were disappointing or ineffective--and others on their offensive line will soon be gone as well. They have been or are being replaced by players who fit a certain type that Coach McNally wants and feels that he can mold into the kind of unit that he envisions. J.Peters, R.Preston, J.Geissinger, G.Gudmundsen, D.McFarland and even C.Villarial, B.Anderson and M.Williams (and to a lesser extent, R.Tucker) all share certain traits that fit that mold. The problem is that many Bills fans are dismissing this turnover in personnel because a numer of these players have come to the Bills as "projects" who would take time develop their skills and not as highly rated draft choices.

In another previous post (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?t=70345), I pointed out that fans often forget that just because a player is a "developmental project" that doesn't mean that he will never be able to play or be good enough to be a quality starter or even a star. It just means that it is going to take him time to learn what he needs to do to maximize his talent. Indeed, the very fans who are delighted today because the Bills have drafted or signed as a UFA a player, who is a "project" that has great talent but is raw, are very often the first ones who will say that he "stinks" or is "garbage" if he doesn't contribute immediately--even though they knew when he was signed that he would take time to develop--or scream when he finally gets a chance to step into the starting line-up in a couple of years.

For example: A lot of Bills fans cheered when J.Peters was signed because everyone knew that he had all the physical talent that you could ask for in an OT and even more as a TE. Anyone who read his profile in a draft guide also knew that, because of his inexperience at any one position and limited intelligence, it would take him time to learn to play whatever position he was put at in the NFL. Nevertheless, he was a great prospect and a great pick-up. Still, now, some of those very same people are moaning about the fact that, after a year of grooming, Peters might end up being the Bills' starting LT and *****ing about the fact that the Bills didn't draft A.Terry to be the starting LT instead--even though most draft guides mentioned that Terry would need to work on his technique to become a solid starter in the NFL. Now, how can anyone say that they know for certain that Terry, coming straight out of college, would definitely play better for the Bills than Peters, who has had a year of working with Coach McNally? Who is to say that Terry will definitely be ready to start sooner than Peters or be better than Peters? Sure, Terry has more experience and is bigger, but Peters is quicker, faster and more compact. Now, it is certainly possible that Terry may eventually be better than Peters. But, it is also possible that Peters could turn out to be better than Terry. Both men have a lot of physical talent and ability to play the position. The difference is that Terry played LT for his whole career in a pro-option style offense at Syracuse, while Peters bounced from DT to TE to LT and back in a college option offense at Arkansas. Peters may not be the brightest bulb on the tree, but how can anyone here be so certain that he won't be able to learn what he needs to learn to use his talents as much as Terry?

Those who want the Bills to populate their offensive line with first round draft picks forget that players who are drafted on the first day cost a lot more money than developmental projects do and don't come with a guarantee that they won't be a "bust". Unlike a "project", when a high draft pick flops it costs the team a lot more in terms of money and talent and very often the team gets stuck with a mediocre player that it can't afford to get rid of. The history of the NFL is replete with cases of offensive linemen drafted in the first round or on the first day who never were more than mediocre players at best. While an offensive lineman taken high in the draft is more likely to become a star, he is also going to command a larger portion of a team's salary cap--money that won't be available for players at other positions--and make it more difficult for the team to put other talented players around him, impacting the team's overall balance. And, how much more effective will he be than a raw "project" with first round talent that costs far less, once that "project" has had time to develop?

While any fan with a handful of draft guides could put together a collection of talented offensive linemen using high draft picks over the last two seasons, there is no guarantee that such a group would ever become a good offensive line or anything more than a bunch of talented players all doing things their own way. The Bills offensive line 2 years ago was awful--even though it featured J.Jennings, R.Brown, M.Sullivan and M.Williams, all highly rated draft picks. For all their talent, they gave up 52 sacks. The Pats won a SB with fewer and lower draft picks on their offensive line.

As I pointed out earlier, McNally is rebuilding the Bills offensive line. But, it is still a work-in-progress. He is putting together a group of offensive linemen that fit a certain mold and will do things the way that he wants them to be done. Some of the pieces are in place, others are still in development and it probably will take until next season for all of the pieces to be in place. But, while a lot of Bills fans might not like the way that he is doing it, there is very obviously a method to what he is doing. And, a significant element of that method involves taking talented, but raw "developmental projects" and teaching them how to do things his way, rather than bringing in players taken high in the draft who may have a little more physical talent, but may or may not be willing or able to "unlearn" what they have been taught before and learn to do things the way that he wants.

I know that what McNally is doing might make some Bills fans uncomfortable and may not be the way that they want him to rebuild the Bills' offensive line, but why hire one of the most respected offensive line coaches in the business to rebuild the Bills offensive line if you are not going to let him do it his way and you are going to moan and groan about the way he wants to go about doing it?

[Jan Reimers]

I think MM and TD are in total agreement on how to rebuild this team. In their two drafts together, they have used our higher draft picks on fast, athletic skilled offensive guys: Evans, Losman, Euhus, Parrish and Everett. Added to what we already had in Moulds and McGahee, we now have an awesome group of talented, explosive offensive players.

They have also vastly improved our special teams, by hiring April, properly utilizing Clements and McGee, and drafting Freddie Smith and now Parrish.

At the same time, we're rebuilding the O line, starting with the hiring of McNally. We are adding the type of linemen he likes to work with, in the middle rounds of the draft and in free agency: Villarrial, McFarland and Peters last year, and Gandy, Anderson, Preston, and Geisinger this year. Added to what we already have, I believe we'll be improved over last season.

I worry more about the D, which is still very good, but which we haven't done much to improve in the last few years. Hopefully, Tim Anderson will turn out to be a good player, and we will find some more "gems," as we did last year, among our UDFAs: Gause, Ezekial and Leonhard may all have a chance.

[Meathead]

Great job LTBF.

Still, I prefer the much simpler:

Waaaaa.

[Meathead]

The reason you don’t use a lot of high picks on the OL is because that generally is poor value compared to what you could have got elsewhere with that pick. It’s relatively easy to find good linemen very low in the draft compared to many other positions.

Following is a list of teams that are considered to have good offensive lines with the round each starting player was drafted in (U=Undrafted):

Indy 1 7 U 4 1
Balt 1 4 U U U
Pitt 2 1 U 1 3
Pats 1 5 3 U U
Denv U 4 7 U 1
KC 1 U U 3 5
Phil 1 U U 1 4
Minn 1 U 6 7 5
Car 3 U 5 5 1
Buff 3 U 7 5 1

With the exception of Pittsburgh, all of these teams have 3 members of their line that were drafted in the 5th round or lower.

This should put an end to the talk that the Bills are employing a unique strategy to staffing the line. Do you think it will?

[Bulldog]

The reason you don’t use a lot of high picks on the OL is because that generally is poor value compared to what you could have got elsewhere with that pick. It’s relatively easy to find good linemen very low in the draft compared to many other positions.

Following is a list of teams that are considered to have good offensive lines with the round each starting player was drafted in (U=Undrafted):

Indy 1 7 U 4 1
Balt 1 4 U U U
Pitt 2 1 U 1 3
Pats 1 5 3 U U
Denv U 4 7 U 1
KC 1 U U 3 5
Phil 1 U U 1 4
Minn 1 U 6 7 5
Car 3 U 5 5 1
Buff 3 U 7 5 1

With the exception of Pittsburgh, all of these teams have 3 members of their line that were drafted in the 5th round or lower.

This should put an end to the talk that the Bills are employing a unique strategy to staffing the line. Do you think it will?


Very interesting indeed. I just wish people would stop *****ing until they have actually seen the product. If after a couple of preseason games the line looks like crap, let the *****ing begin. I will be one of the first ones to rip TD for it. But until then, I will reserve my judgement. Does anyone here think that if McNally told TD that he needed Terry for instance, that TD would completely disregard his opinion?

[Dozerdog]

Here is a snapshot of teams that have generally sucked the past 10 or so years-

Skins 1 3 2 U 2
Cards 1 6 4 6 U (with 2nd rounder Clement just cut and 1st rounder Shelton next)
Cincy 1 2 4 U 1
Lions 1 U 2 U 6 (the two undrafteds were Woody & DeMullling- two high paid Free agents)

Skins and Cards have had 1 playoff apperance the past 10 seasons, Cincy hasen't been in the playoffs since what, 1990? Lions sucked since sanders retired.

If these teams, who usually draft in the first 15 anyway - spent the picks wisely on skilled positions instead of using them on reaching for linemen- then I wonder what they could have done.

Of the 6 first round picks, 5 seconds, 1 3rd and 2 4ths, (I counted Shelton and Clements) only Leonard Davis is a pro bowler.

[Dozerdog]

BTW- I did not count the Skin's new Center from Baltimore- I went with last year's starter. I would have done that with DeMUlling bit I don't know who he replaced

[Meathead]

Well, we nailed that one.

How soon until we go back to:

Waaaaa.

[Jan Reimers]

Good line or poor line, though, every team (except Denver) in the two analyses has a high pick at LT. What does this mean?

Who knows.

[Mahdi]

Here's why I think that we have upgraded from last year:


C- Teague is serviceable, but doesnt get enough done in the run game. Preston is a powerful blocker with good feet, gets to the second level, smart in pass protection and will have a shot at beating out teague or whoever else is at center. I see that as an upgrade mainly due to run blocking ability.

LG- Major upgrade. Bennie Anderson is a road grater and will open up holes which Lawrence Smith and Tucker were lacking. As for pass protection that is easier to coach than run blcoking, and I think McNally will get him to improve. Therefore, upgrade.


LT. Even or slight drop-off at worst. Gandy has started 20 games at LT for the Bears. However had injury problems which kept him sidelined in 2004 till he was released. With JJ leaving he doesnt have very big shoes to fill. JJ was overrated. Again, working with McNally should get him up to par.


Overall the main reason I think we have upgraded the line is Bennie Anderson at LG which will open up the middle more for Willis which he didnt have last year.

[Mr. Cynical]

The reason you don’t use a lot of high picks on the OL is because that generally is poor value compared to what you could have got elsewhere with that pick. It’s relatively easy to find good linemen very low in the draft compared to many other positions.

Following is a list of teams that are considered to have good offensive lines with the round each starting player was drafted in (U=Undrafted):

Indy 1 7 U 4 1
Balt 1 4 U U U
Pitt 2 1 U 1 3
Pats 1 5 3 U U
Denv U 4 7 U 1
KC 1 U U 3 5
Phil 1 U U 1 4
Minn 1 U 6 7 5
Car 3 U 5 5 1
Buff 3 U 7 5 1

With the exception of Pittsburgh, all of these teams have 3 members of their line that were drafted in the 5th round or lower.

This should put an end to the talk that the Bills are employing a unique strategy to staffing the line. Do you think it will?
One thing that you need to consider in this analysis - the person's ability to evaluate those low picks. You can fill the line with them IF you pick the right ones. So far TD has not done well at all in this regard.

[Mr. Cynical]

Good line or poor line, though, every team (except Denver) in the two analyses has a high pick at LT. What does this mean?

Who knows.
Exactly. We have our #1 at RT and am paying him $9M, which is more than Pace. That's a problem.

[Jan Reimers]

Exactly. We have our #1 at RT and am paying him $9M, which is more than Pace. That's a problem.
I agree. He's the kind of guy we never would have drafted had McNally been here.