What Wys does understand!

[WG]

What Wys does understand that some are apparently having some difficulty with, is that a poor defense, while possibly costing games, is not responsible for the offense putting up a paltry amount of points.

It's no secret that our O has put up 17 or fewer points in the last bunch of games. It's also no secret that we haven't exactly dominated time-of-possession either.

For you skeptics, let's do this; provide us all, in all of your infinite collective wisdom, an example, a specific one, not some general vaguely phrased platitude, demonstrating how a poor defense contributes to the offense not scoring any points! And please do not use the field-position example b/c it simply has not been the case w/ us, so it hasn't been a large factor.

Sorry, had to make that part of it clear. B/c this debate hasn't been over whether or not the D is partially responsible for losing games. It's been over this ridiculous, at this point, notion that somehow our offense has been anything but shabby over the past 7 weeks overall. Again, putting up only more than 17 offensive points only twice during that span.

To be fair, I will demonstrate specifically how an offense that cannot control the clock and put points up significantly contributes to the D playing worse:

1. The longer the defense is on the field due to the offense's inability to do the same, the more time the opponent's offense is on the field, thereby increasing their chances of a) gaining yards, and b) scoring points.

2. The longer the defense is on the field due to the offense's inability to do the same, the more tired out the defense gets, thereby rendering it less effective as time goes on.

3. The longer the defense is on the field due to the offense's inability to do the same, the greater the chances that the opponent is allowed to run, something that the Bills are the most ill-equipped to stop this year.

What I'm not saying is that our D is good. It blows, make no mistake. One of the local sportswriters mentioned that it's poised to give up the most points since '84 I believe if I read it correctly. In any event, it's far from good and close to the worst in the league.

Nonetheless, in spite of people like Judge who argue that the Defense, apparently, is responsible for the offense not being able to properly play, drive, and put the ball into the endzone, I simply see little correlation except for perhaps situational ones. But again, such as having crappy field position, that really hasn't happened all that much over this stretch. FP has been OK at least usually. Besides, our woes have not been moving the ball down to the opponent's 20 or 30, they have been in the red zone.

Why the offense cannot score from within the redzone is not beyond me. With this cast it should be no problem. But the problem is that we pass when we should run. In any case, I think even the most hardened critic cannot reasonably truly believe that that is the fault of the defense under any circumstances.

Let's face it, and it's long overdue that those who have been arguing and belaboring this point do, but if our team scored 17 points each of the 16 weeks, We'd be lucky to win more than a game or two. So the entire reason for us not having won games over our last 5 is not entirely due to the defense. And if anything, the play of the defense has been more affected by the inability of the offense to A) control the clock, and B) put points on the boards thus allowing teams to run on us, which is our weakness this year on D. If the offense could have gone up in games, then we are more effective on D. Yet, that rarely happens. And it has nothing to do with the D. It has everything to do w/ the offense not being able to put points up early. That is not the D's fault!

Judge will argue. But he'll argue w/ me if I say that it's December. Right Judge!

[the antichrist]

The real shiva2999 has asked me to repost this, as an imposter has assumed his identity rendering it impossible for him to post it here himself....

Bledsoe and Gilbride - the reason we're always behind...

Earlier this year, I was the first to point out we hadn't beat any good teams. I received the expected amount of abuse.

I then pointed out the disturbing fact that an inordinate number of our tds had come at the ends of halves and in O.T. Somehow most of you didn't get it that it meant our regular, bread and butter offense was highly inconsistent and ineffectual. The fact that we'd been so successful running the "everyone go downfield and Drew will whip it to someone" offense hid the fact it was the only thing we did well.

What this also means is that we are playing from behind a majority of the time.

So, I took a look at the game records and what I found was a game beginning record of futility that I doubt is matched by any other team in the league.

Here's what our unjustly adored offense did on it's first two possessions in every game so far this year.

The first two possessions of every game. Possessions that were brainstormed, designed, scripted and practiced all week.

Check it out....

Game poss.1 poss.2

1.NYJ- 3- 0
2.Minn- 0- 3
3.Den- 0- 0
4.Chi- 7- -7
5.Oak- 0- 0
6.Hou- 0- 3
7.Mia- 0- 0
8.Det- 0- 0
9.NE- 0- 0
10.KC- 0- 0
11.NYJ- 3- 0
12.Mia- 0- 3
13.NE- 0- 0

This is pathetic. Bledsoe and Gilbride and Gregg will assure this franchise of never being anything other than mediocre.

- shiva2999

and...

TMQ and Larry Centers identify the problem

I told you the whole year was ALL ABOUT DREW! Well, Tuesday Morning Quarterback starts to see what happens when a team dedicates it's whole season to one man's passing stats...

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/tmq/021210.html

'Tis Better to Have Rushed and Lost Than Never to Have Rushed at All No. 2:

At Kansas City last month, Buffalo lost by repeatedly passing on short-yardage downs. The Bills threw on a critical third-and-inches; incompletion, punt. Reaching first-and-goal at the Kansas City 5, the Bills threw three straight times, all incompletions, then settled for the field goal. They were defeated by one point.

On Sunday, Buffalo had second-and-goal at the New England 1-foot line, trailing by 17. Did the Bills pound, pound, pound for 99-percent-likely touchdown? A pass-wacky roll-out on which Drew Bledsoe sprinted backwards 15 yards -- 15 yards backward on goal-to-go from the one-foot line - interception, overall team collapse promptly follows. It's hard not to think the Buffalo sideline is more concerned about getting touchdown-pass stats for Bledsoe than about winning games.


READ THAT LAST LINE AGAIN!

It's hard not to think the Buffalo sideline is more concerned about getting touchdown-pass stats for Bledsoe than about winning games.


Why do I get the distinct impression there are Bledsoe fans, er, BILLS FANS who don't see anything wrong with that?


Now, here's what Larry Centers has to say...

http://www.gazettenet.com/12092002/sports/2577.htm

"It should never come down to it being solely on Drew's back," fullback Larry Centers said. "This is not the Buffalo Bledsoes. It's the Buffalo Bills."


Well, I called them the Bledsoe Bills, but close enough. Larry nails the problem out of thin air and then denies it to be politically correct.


IT"S ALL ABOUT DREW!!!!!!!!!!

- shiva2999

[TacklingDummy]

WYS, you have convinced me. Our offense sucks and our defense is one of the best units in the NFL. :drinker:

[Judge]

Re: What Wys does understand!

Originally posted by Wys Guy



Nonetheless, in spite of people like Judge who argue that the Defense, apparently, is responsible for the offense not being able to properly play, drive, and put the ball into the endzone, I simply see little correlation except for perhaps situational ones. But again, such as having crappy field position, that really hasn't happened all that much over this stretch. FP has been OK at least usually. Besides, our woes have not been moving the ball down to the opponent's 20 or 30, they have been in the red zone.
...

Judge will argue. But he'll argue w/ me if I say that it's December. Right Judge!

I've agreed with you at times- but the primary point of contention on this issue between us is that you see "little correlation except perhaps situational ones" between the defense and offense-

I see football as a sport of situations and the correlation between offense and defense that creates those situations that are decisive to a game. It appears that you choose not to watch football in that manner.

[WG]

Stop w/ the inane comments TD. If you can't comment intelligently, I would at least appreciate a stay on these. It makes perfect sense. And until someone ante's up and explains to all the good folks here at BillsZone how poor D is the reason why an offense can't score, then simply blaming the D doesn't hold water. Little tantrums, tiffs, and hussy fits don't change anything.

Perhaps if we didn't always have to play from a deficit, then the defense would not always be challenged with having to put up it's 31st and horrible rush D all the time and might have the opportunity to try to defend the pass. Granted, our pass D isn't grand and great, but it's a far cry better than our rush D which has as its foundation PW and three guys who, at least at this time, aren't starter material in the NFL. It's not like many of us didn't notice this at the beginning of the season. Instead, we were told not to worry now that Drew is here.

Well, "here" is now, and "Drew" ain't doin' much to help us win games by leading his offense to 13, 16 or 17 points. Heck, even w/ a 10th ranked D a team would be lucky to have 3 wins w/ an O that plays that "excellently."

I knew we weren't jumping out to early leads, but I never ran the stats. But if ac is correct, then we've scored 29 whopping points on our first two drives of each game this season!

Is that the defense's fault??

Never mind! I'm sure it is...

Silly me.

[Judge]

The defense has been particularly bad this year- no debate possible there!

If the D had done just 1 thing better this year: create more takeaway opportunities to give the offense the ball more often and in better field position- the Bills would have won more games.

I don't have the time right now to check, but from my recollection the Bills have been pretty decent at time of possession this year in many if not all games, haven't they? If so, then according to Wys the only way we could have won was to eat up 40+ minutes per game, because

Kind of ridiculous to put that kind of burden on an offense that has piled up points and yards, isn't it?

[WG]

And OH, BTW, it would also appear that of those 29 points only 14 were TDs, and both of those occurred in one game, the Chicago. That means in the other 12 games, we've put up what, 15 points, 5 FGs, in 24 opening two drives?

And again, the defense is to blame why now?

Or then was it the offense for allowing teams to go up by 3, 4, or even 6 thus sending Gilbride into a panic and allowing this "pass at all costs" coach to use insignificant deficits to excuse his personal lust for the pass at the expense of team welfare?

In any case, the offense sure hasn't done it's part to ensure that we don't have to defend against the run. Sooner or later it'll hit ya like a ton of bricks. Probably after the next several games if Henry doesn't get plenty of carries and every sportswriter in the country is saying the same thing.

But then again, we have the #6 ranked offense based on yardage! WooHoo! Too bad we don't show up for games at the negotiating table and start whipping out offensive passing rankings, eh! Perhaps then we'd be 10-3. LOL

[Judge]

You're proving my point by your own posts, Wys.

Whose fault was it that the opposition has scored point early in games? The defense generally allows a team to score, unless the offense turns the ball over and the opponent's D scores on the turnover.

I'll reverse the field on you to show the error in your logic: shouldn't the D have made some early stops in games so as to allow the offense the opportunity to NOT have to try to come from behind, which it has actually done extraordinarily well this season?

Look at last week- the Patriots struck early. A defensive stop would have shaken that whole game. It didn't happen. The D put the offense in an early bind.

See the correlation? I'm sure you don't, but I'm also sure others do on here- maybe everyone but you.

[WG]

Here's more from that same article as well:

"Fraidy-Cat Play of the Day No. 1: In the first Buffalo-New England contest, the tastefully named Gregg Williams waved the white flag in the third quarter on a play TMQ calls the Preposterous Punt: trailing by 10, facing fourth-and-2 on the Pats' 32, Williams punted. Pumped up by the Bills' mincing timidity, New England drove for a touchdown and never looked back.

In the third quarter Sunday, Buffalo trailed New England 20-0 and this time faced fourth-and-inches on the Pats' 8. Surely Williams learned from his mistake at this point the last time. You must, if you are anything but a disoriented former high-school coach who's in way over his head, go for it. In came the field-goal unit. TMQ thought, Got to be a fake. The figgie launched, TMQ lamented, "Aaaiiiiiiiiyyyyyyyyeeeeeeeeeeee!". Only possible explanation: an onside kick would follow. Regular kickoff.

Thus the tastefully named Gregg Williams followed up the Preposterous Punt with the Fraidy-Cat Figgie. Both times Williams would have been better off going for it and failing -- but sending his team the message that he was challenging them to win. By kicking, he sent his team the message he expected to lose and was in too far over his head to do anything about it.

There are numerous examples of gentlemen who were solid assistant coaches -- Williams was a successful defensive coordinator at Tennessee -- but flops as head coaches because they lack leadership, game-day skills or ability to perform under pressure. Game-day skills are an especially overlooked factor. Head coaches aren't just standing there, they make the key decisions and are looked to by players for inspiration. Twice at critical times this season, Bills players looked to Williams and saw that, far from providing inspiration, he was signaling that he couldn't take the pressure. Before getting the Buffalo helm, Williams' sole head-coaching experience was in high school. Drew Bledsoe deserves better than a high-school coach."

So I don't want to blame Bledsoe for everything either. Especially since he's essentially cemented in stone here for the next two seasons as well. But GW shouldn't be taking all the heat either. If Gilbride gets a pass for what the O does, then he's a wooden head and should be replaced anyway. If he is, which reason would dictate is valid, then he needs to go anyway.

Drew, as many of us already know, doesn't step up in the biggest of games and never has. He performs well w/ a team around him and if he simply limits his game-changing mistakes in the playoffs and big games and otherwise throws a decent game, then he's fine.

Running Henry more, while not allowing Drew to become some sort of Bills passing icon, would certainly improve his overall TD production and otherwise overall effectiveness. The entire team would benefit. But it will cost him all of these yardage marks however. But then again, one of these days coaches, fans, and media will realize that yardage does not equal points. Especially when, as we are experiencing, most of our yards come between the 20s as we are simply not moving the ball once inside the red zone.

[WG]

Originally posted by Judge
You're proving my point by your own posts, Wys.

Whose fault was it that the opposition has scored point early in games? The defense generally allows a team to score, unless the offense turns the ball over and the opponent's D scores on the turnover.

I'll reverse the field on you to show the error in your logic: shouldn't the D have made some early stops in games so as to allow the offense the opportunity to NOT have to try to come from behind, which it has actually done extraordinarily well this season?

Look at last week- the Patriots struck early. A defensive stop would have shaken that whole game. It didn't happen. The D put the offense in an early bind.

See the correlation? I'm sure you don't, but I'm also sure others do on here- maybe everyone but you.

You make me laugh judge! An entire thread about how we, the Bills, cannot seem to score on our first two drives of games in 12 of 13 games, and here you are stating that the defense allows too many points in the first two drives when there's not a lick of data about that in this thread.

You truly leave me speechless there Judge....

[The_Philster]

Originally posted by Wys Guy
You truly leave me speechless there Judge....

Judge but I find that hard to believe, Wys

[Judge]

Originally posted by Wys Guy


You make me laugh judge! An entire thread about how we, the Bills, cannot seem to score on our first two drives of games in 12 of 13 games, and here you are stating that the defense allows too many points in the first two drives when there's not a lick of data about that in this thread.

You truly leave me speechless there Judge....

You leave me speechless- you can't handle having your own logic examined from another angle. That's always been your problem on here. It's hilarious how you cannot or refuse to accept the fact that there are ways to view things that are different than your's.

the fact is that the D HAS given up points early. Only a total idiot would deny that. I don't care what this thread is "about" according to you. Did the offense failed to score early at times? yes. Did the D stop the opposition early? Generally, no. Hence, the Bills were faced with early deficits as a result of defensive and offensive failures- the correlation again!

You refuse to acknowledge that.

[WG]

...error in my logic...

Just for you judge:

In 6 of our 7 losses, excluding the 2nd Pats game, our defense allowed the following number of offensive points in the entire 1st Qs of each of the other 6 losses:

Jets: 0
Denver: 0
Oakland: 7
Patriots: 7
K.C.: 7
Jets: 3

So again, if that is enough to send us into panic mode, then we have a problem!

And to correspond those to the # of points that our "high-powered offense" put up in the first Qs, not just the first two possessions, but the entire 1st Q in those games:

Jets: 3
Denver: 0
Oakland: 0
Patriots: 0
K.C.: 0
Jets: 3

So, who's the one struggling w/ the logic here Judge? I don't think it's me!

[WG]

BTW, 24 points early in 6 games, an average of only 4 PPG and no more than 7 in any single game that were losses, and that's a lot?

OK Judge, OK, please, my sides are half splitting over here. You set yourself up like a volleyball on the corner and expect me to keep a straight face. I'm dyin' over here! PLEASE! Stop....

Please, I'm beggin' ya!

Judge:

Round!

Can you say "square!" LOL

You're killin' me man!

[WG]

Actually, after reviewing those incredible 1st Q performances by our wonderfully talent-laden offense which has just been lighting things up lately, I must admit, those 6 points in the first Qs of those games is quite impressive!

I didn't really see it from your point of view there Judge until I took the average and saw that 1.0 point-per-1st-quarter average in them! That's when it hit me!

"Wys! You know, Judge is right!"