Tom Donahoe's Contract

[camelcowboy]

With a lack of activity at 1 Bills drive. I find myself wondering about TD. I haven't heard anything regarding a contract extention. I wonder if Ralph is growing impatient with the teams lack of on field production. It seems that every year the team finds a goat to blame it's misfortunes on. Year 1 it was the salary cap. Year 2 it was the defense. Year 3 it was the head Coach. Year 4 it was Drew Bledsoe. And now heading into year 5 it has the potential of being the Young Quarter back. When is the put up or shut up for TD. You can only chase your tail around for so long. In the Salary cap era, you can not have a perfect team. There is always going to be weakness in the Armor. His drafts have been hit or miss, and has a tendency to ignore the offensive line.

What do you need to see inorder to retain your confidence in our General manager?

[wchutalkinboutwillis]

With a lack of activity at 1 Bills drive. I find myself wondering about TD. I haven't heard anything regarding a contract extention. I wonder if Ralph is growing impatient with the teams lack of on field production. It seems that every year the team finds a goat to blame it's misfortunes on. Year 1 it was the salary cap. Year 2 it was the defense. Year 3 it was the head Coach. Year 4 it was Drew Bledsoe. And now heading into year 5 it has the potential of being the Young Quarter back. When is the put up or shut up for TD. You can only chase your tail around for so long. In the Salary cap era, you can not have a perfect team. There is always going to be weakness in the Armor. His drafts have been hit or miss, and has a tendency to ignore the offensive line.

What do you need to see inorder to retain your confidence in our General manager?
I thought TD received an extension last year??? I know there was talk about it and that Ralph was totally supportive of it. Donahoe gets so private when it comes to his personal biz. You can't really learn anything about him through the news.

[TheGhostofJimKelly]

I think Ralph loves TD. I also think that TD will wait until after this year to see what he wants to do.

[Ed]

Last year before the Pitt game I remember Ralph saying that he was very happy with the team and the job that Donahoe and Mularkey were doing, and that Donahoe was welcome to stay as long as he likes regardless of if they made the playoffs or not.

[Mr. Cynical]

With a lack of activity at 1 Bills drive. I find myself wondering about TD. I haven't heard anything regarding a contract extention. I wonder if Ralph is growing impatient with the teams lack of on field production. It seems that every year the team finds a goat to blame it's misfortunes on. Year 1 it was the salary cap. Year 2 it was the defense. Year 3 it was the head Coach. Year 4 it was Drew Bledsoe. And now heading into year 5 it has the potential of being the Young Quarter back. When is the put up or shut up for TD. You can only chase your tail around for so long. In the Salary cap era, you can not have a perfect team. There is always going to be weakness in the Armor. His drafts have been hit or miss, and has a tendency to ignore the offensive line.

What do you need to see inorder to retain your confidence in our General manager?
:goodpost:

I've been saying the same thing...at what point do people stop coming up with excuses and say that TD is simply not getting it done? I've never heard an answer from TD supporters on this.

[camelcowboy]

:goodpost:

I've been saying the same thing...at what point do people stop coming up with excuses and say that TD is simply not getting it done? I've never heard an answer from TD supporters on this.
Ive never heard a reason either. I guess he thinks that if he makes the offseason interesting enough people are going to forget that we miss the playoffs every year.

When Mr Wilson endorses someone i don't take it very serious. TD said that he liked Josh Reed right before the draft. Said the same right before we drafted Losman, about Bledsoe. When anyone in the Bills organization talks to the media, take it at face value.

[Ed]

:goodpost:

I've been saying the same thing...at what point do people stop coming up with excuses and say that TD is simply not getting it done? I've never heard an answer from TD supporters on this.
I guess when we stop making progress and start consistently taking steps backwards?

The way I look at is that 2001 was unavoidable in order to get our cap situation under control. We made signifcant improvements in 2002 to get back to .500. In 2003 Donahoe made all the right moves to get our D back on top. Unfortunately Moulds got injured and I think that really killed what could have been a decent season. Even though we finished 6-10, I think our team was still better then 2002 considering how close all our losses were compared to our wins. And 2004 pretty much speaks for itself. Donahoe improved our coaching staff, our D stayed on top, his young offensive draft picks, McGahee and Evans, made significant contributions and showed a ton of promise, and we finished with a winning record just short of the playoffs in the incredibly tough AFC.

Yeah, some of his moves haven't worked out as hoped, but at the time of the moves it was hard to argue with his logic.

Take the Bledsoe situation that Donahoe gets so much critisism for. Even looking back on it now, is there anything he could have done with the qb position to make us a championship team? What were his options? Trade up to draft Harrington? Take Ramsey with the #4 pick or try and trade back into the first round to grab him? Sign Blake or Chandler? Stuck with Van Pelt? Even with hindsight being 20/20 could we really have done a lot better? Would Peerless Price still have had a huge year and been able to get us a first round pick?

I think sometimes you just have to accept the fact that no matter how badly you want to improve a position there just isn't the talent available to you.

I think you just have to be patient and not have such a short leash. Building a championship team can be a process, especially when you're starting from scratch. There are going to be moves that don't work out sometimes, but if you overhaul the front office every time you hit a bump in the road, I don't think you'll ever really get anywhere.

As of right now, our cap is in good shape, ticket sales have been good, we've got a coaching staff that seems poised for a lot of success, and we have a lot of young exciting players.

We haven't made the playoffs yet, but I don't think Donahoe has done anything to make us think that we're not going to get there.

[mysticsoto]

:goodpost:

I've been saying the same thing...at what point do people stop coming up with excuses and say that TD is simply not getting it done? I've never heard an answer from TD supporters on this. I think there are a couple of things that you need to consider. In order to become a good contender and playoff team, you need several things:

1) Good Players - This is obvious. I think TD (and the scouts) have done a good job of getting us good quality personnel. Especially last year. Grabbing some top personnel from the undrafted probably gave us one of the Bills best years of drafting ever. Sure you don't hit with all candidates - who does? Name me one team that took every single candidate they drafted and had them become stars! I think we have done well with what we have gotten so far. And in fact, this past draft, having the luxury of drafting BPA instead of for filling glaring holes, TD seem to draft based on personality and mind set more than anything else. Eric King is a good example of a person who is self motivated and eager - these qualities you can't coach into someone...

2) Good Coaches - admittedly, here TD blundered initially with Gregg Williams - although GW did improve our defense substantially when he came in. Seeing that GW wasn't the right person, he made the right call and brought a new, more offensive minded coach in. Everyone seems to like Mularkey - and even though he's was a rookie coach last year - did reasonably well and can only improve with more experience.

3) Front Office mgmt - you can't just fire people every few years b'cse you didn't get a superbowl. In the NFL, anybody can win in a given year. The competition is that tough. Parcells has done terrible so far in Dallas...should he get fired? Is he no longer a good coach? Belichek was terrible in his previous head coaching position - obviously that doesn't mean he's a terrible coach or he wouldn't be doing as good as he is now. It is difficult but you need to look for a combination of coaching and players who respond well to that for a championship calibre team to develop. Turning the FO into a revolving door does not create stable leadership which in turn is detrimental those following that leadershp.

I think we are fairly stable now and other than minor setbacks due to injury (mostly at TE). Having a stable FO means they can plan both short term and long term for the future of this franchise and their performance. I think TD has done a fine job of balancing both the field personnel and the fiscal cap issues which matter a great deal also. Unfortunately, I think we are in a tough division and will be for the forseeable future.

Therefore, we need to also think both short term and long term in the personnel we choose so we don't end up in salary cap hell again, but at the same time, have quality players that can get us there. If this means sometimes giving a chance to a backup player or a undrafted player with potential - then so be it. But they see and evaluate these players alot more than we do, so we DEFINITELY need to stop having knee jerk reactions to anything and everything that happens...and stop and think about the overall picture!!!

[frank74]

i understand that we have to start thinking about the future and it takes time. but, how long does it take? i mean, where is the promise in the future. yes, we have some skilled players and that's fine, but where is the foundation of the team? gandy, anderson? i have a strong feeling they aren't the answer and, no i don't know for sure, but based on their past and the current status of our line, i really don't see two sub-par offensive linemen contributing. Line has been the issue, especially during TD's tenure and it's been looked at lightly. And, now that we have a mobile QB, it takes attention away from the line. Peters a tackle? Teague? Gandy? C'mon fellas, let's look at the culprit here and see that until we get someone who really knows football in here, it's always gonna be the way it is. So let me have it, I know it's coming!!

[HurryUpTom]

Once you stop having bad dead cap, you stop having excuses. Every team has the same cap space - if you are using your full cap space then you have no excuses.

When you're using up all the regular cap room and "building" what you're really saying is that you're overpaying and not managing the cap well.

The excuses ran out after season 2 (1 was a write-off and season 2 was very good). Season 3 and 4 have been horrendous (a 1 game and non-playoff improvement over 2 seasons? If this is another non-playoff season, TD should walk the plank (actually I think he should have already - this was too important an offseason to keep in the hands of an out-of-date GM).

[AndreReed83]

Ok, tell me... what could have TD done differently that would have DEFINITELY gotten us into the playoffs so far? Honestly, think this out and give an honest answer. Or if you can't (which I don't see how you could. The only actual arguement I see is he should not have hired Gregg Williams.) tell me which GM available out there would do a better job? Ready..... GO!

[HurryUpTom]

By the way - it wasn't just the coach's those first few years. TD's drafting was not so great either. Just look at the help we're getting this year from all of TD's drafts for this season.

2001 - 2 starters (Clements and Schobel)
2002 - 1 starter (Mike Williams) - 1 starter 3 years later from a draft where you're picking 4th each round? that makes this draft comparable to our 2000 for futility.
2003 - 3 starters (McGahee, Kelsay, McGee)
2004 - 3 starters (Evans, Losman, Anderson)
2005 - no starters.

No team can win with such little contribution from it's drafts. For comparison, here are New England's numbers:
2001 - 2 starters (Light and Seymour)
2002 - 3 starters (Graham, Branch, and Givens)
2003 - 4 starters (Warren, Wilson, Samuel, and Koppen)
2004 - 1 starter (Wilfork)
2005 - 1 starter (Mankins)

that's 11 starters this season for the Pats and we have 9 ... and they've picked after us in each of the drafts.

[HurryUpTom]

Ok, tell me... what could have TD done differently that would have DEFINITELY gotten us into the playoffs so far? Honestly, think this out and give an honest answer. Or if you can't (which I don't see how you could. The only actual arguement I see is he should not have hired Gregg Williams.) tell me which GM available out there would do a better job? Ready..... GO!Tell me which GM would do worse than 0-4? No need to ... no one could have done worse.

I am not a GM and I don't claim to be a GM. TD can do his job thousands of times better than I can. I compare TD to the performance of his peers, not to the performance of Joe Schmo on a message board. 25 other GM's have found a way to make the playoffs in the last 4 years. If we're going to compare TD to fans, then Ralph might as well save 3/4 of a million dollars and give a fan the job.

[The_Philster]

How many GMs would've made the playoffs with a fool like Gregg Williams as the head coach?

[HurryUpTom]

How many GMs would've made the playoffs with a fool like Gregg Williams as the head coach?
How many hired him?

[The_Philster]

How many hired him?

1...and your point is?
Who would you put as the best GM in the league? A few years back, TD was thought of as one of the best..along with Polian, Butler, Wolf, and 1 other I can't think of. Take the best GM in the league and give him Williams as the head coach...you really think he's going to produce a winner?

[HurryUpTom]

1...and your point is?
Who would you put as the best GM in the league? A few years back, TD was thought of as one of the best..along with Polian, Butler, Wolf, and 1 other I can't think of. Take the best GM in the league and give him Williams as the head coach...you really think he's going to produce a winner?
My point is that no one else would have hired GW ... you know how I know that? No one else did and no one hired him after he was here either.

Speaking of points - who cares how TD was thought of years ago when discussing his current contract?

And, as I said earlier, it's not like TD gave GW great help ... look at that 2002 draft and where we picked. It's horrendous.

[AndreReed83]

Tell me which GM would do worse than 0-4? No need to ... no one could have done worse.

I am not a GM and I don't claim to be a GM. TD can do his job thousands of times better than I can. I compare TD to the performance of his peers, not to the performance of Joe Schmo on a message board. 25 other GM's have found a way to make the playoffs in the last 4 years. If we're going to compare TD to fans, then Ralph might as well save 3/4 of a million dollars and give a fan the job.

When did I compare TD to fans??? I simply asked for a GM that is available right now that would be better then TD for this team. Never ONCE did I ask how a FAN would do better for this team.

[HurryUpTom]

Ok, tell me... what could have TD done differently that would have DEFINITELY gotten us into the playoffs so far?
I'm a fan, not a GM. Asking me to tell you what TD could have done differently is comparing TD to me.

[The_Philster]

My point is that no one else would have hired GW ... you know how I know that? No one else did and no one hired him after he was here either.:rofl: Of course no one did after he left here...he showed he sucked as a head coach. If a GM hired him now as head coach after what he did here, he'd get laughed out of a job. So your point is invalid...you have no way of knowing if any other GM would hire Williams or not...unless you have psychic powers or something

[AndreReed83]

I'm a fan, not a GM. Asking me to tell you what TD could have done differently is comparing TD to me.

Then how can I give reasons to keep him? I'm not an owner, nor a GM. So asking me for reasons to keep him is comparing Ralph Wilson to me.

[HurryUpTom]

:rofl: Of course no one did after he left here...he showed he sucked as a head coach. If a GM hired him now as head coach after what he did here, he'd get laughed out of a job. So your point is invalid...you have no way of knowing if any other GM would hire Williams or not...unless you have psychic powers or something
Talking about psychics? You're trying to say that you think another GM would do something they haven't (hire Gregg) and you're saying I'm psychic?

How about this, I bet if we gave other GM's Drew Bledsoe, our 2002 draft, and GW, they probably wouldn't make the playoffs? So that means that TD is a good GM right, because if other GM's made the same mistakes he has, then they wouldn't make the playoffs? Right? Wrong.

[HurryUpTom]

Then how can I give reasons to keep him? I'm not an owner, nor a GM. So asking me for reasons to keep him is comparing Ralph Wilson to me.

The discussion at hand here is if you were Ralph Wilson, would you extend Donahoe's contract. If you don't think you're qualified to answer then don't post in it. I do think I'm qualified to evaluate the performance of one GM versus his peers as it relates to producing a quality team. I can see the work of his peers and I can see his work. I cannot judge the moves of said GMs on an individual basis as I am not privy to the same amounts of information as they are. You feel that you are qualified to judge those people on individual moves, so please, tell me, what is it about the other 25 GMs that allowed them to make the playoffs where we haven't?

[The_Philster]

Talking about psychics? You're trying to say that you think another GM would do something they haven't (hire Gregg) and you're saying I'm psychic?.:liar:
You don't read posts before responding to them do you? I never said anything of the sort...I said
you have no way of knowing if any other GM would hire Williams or not You're the one making statements that cannot be proven

[HurryUpTom]

:liar:
You don't read posts before responding to them do you? I never said anything of the sort...I said You're the one making statements that cannot be provenYou bore me and try to nitpick to defend yourself.

How do I know that no GM would hire Gregg? Because no GM other than TD has hired Gregg as a head coach and we were the last team to hire a head coach the offseason that we hired him. What more do you need to prove it?

By the way, who was the one mentioned other GMs having GW as a head coach? If that didn't imply another GM hiring GW, what did it imply?

[The_Philster]

You bore me and try to nitpick to defend yourself.

How do I know that no GM would hire Gregg? Because no GM other than TD has hired Gregg as a head coach and we were the last team to hire a head coach the offseason that we hired him. What more do you need to prove it?
I need to hear that a GM wouldn't hire him before they saw he was a failure...do you even think about how pisspoor your logic is? A guy's a monumental failure in his first shot as a head coach and of course no one is going to hire him. Do you really think GMs have the ability to see what a head coach is going to perform like if HE'S NEVER BEEN A HEAD COACH BEFORE!!?? Your logic doesn't prove a thing to anyone...except that GMs look at past performance before they hire head coaches...big whoop...we all knew that. :rolleyes:

[The_Philster]

By the way, who was the one mentioned other GMs having GW as a head coach? If that didn't imply another GM hiring GW, what did it imply?It implied a comparison...You talk as if TD was the reason for our failures with Williams as the head coach...how many GMs do you think would be successful if they were saddled with that twit?

[HurryUpTom]

I need to hear that a GM wouldn't hire him before they saw he was a failure...do you even think about how pisspoor your logic is? A guy's a monumental failure in his first shot as a head coach and of course no one is going to hire him. Do you really think GMs have the ability to see what a head coach is going to perform like if HE'S NEVER BEEN A HEAD COACH BEFORE!!?? Your logic doesn't prove a thing to anyone...except that GMs look at past performance before they hire head coaches...big whoop...we all knew that. :rolleyes:Arizona Cardinals, Cincinnati Bengals, Cleveland Browns, Detroit Lions, Kansas City Chiefs, New York Jets, Washington Redskins and the Houston Texans all hired coaches the same offseason as we did, all hired coaches that offseason before we did, and all chose not to hire GW.

Please, prove to me that someone else would have hired GW before trying to claim that another GM would have also failed if they had hired GW.

[The_Philster]

Arizona Cardinals, Cincinnati Bengals, Cleveland Browns, Detroit Lions, Kansas City Chiefs, New York Jets, Washington Redskins and the Houston Texans all hired coaches the same offseason as we did, all hired coaches that offseason before we did, and all chose not to hire GW.

Please, prove to me that someone else would have hired GW before trying to claim that another GM would have also failed if they had hired GW.
:roflmao: Putting words in my mouth doesn't help your argument

[Mr. Cynical]

Still haven't heard an answer to my question - at what point should TD get the boot? After 5 years w/o playoffs? 6? 7? 10?

In the end, WINNING GAMES IS ALL THAT MATTERS. Drafts, cap management, trades, etc.., are all moot points. Results on the field is the only way to measure success, and the GM is ultimately responsible for that success.

Second guessing his choices or saying "I would have done X instead of Y" is also a moot exercise. As many have said, hindsight is 20/20. But even so, it doesn't matter. What matters is winning, and if we don't make the playoffs 5 years in a row, IMO that means TD has failed as a GM and should leave.

[AndreReed83]

I say TD stays as long as he wants. I don't think it's his fault we haven't made the playoffs.

[The_Philster]

I say TD stays as long as he wants. I don't think it's his fault we haven't made the playoffs.

That I can't agree with...he is ultimately responsible for how the team does. Obviously having Williams here hurt us significantly but we've gotta bounce back sometime. It might be a tough thing to make the playoffs this year with a rookie QB and holes on both lines but I think we have to get pretty damn close to even think about extending him.

[Mr. Cynical]

That I can't agree with...he is ultimately responsible for how the team does. Obviously having Williams here hurt us significantly but we've gotta bounce back sometime. It might be a tough thing to make the playoffs this year with a rookie QB and holes on both lines but I think we have to get pretty damn close to even think about extending him.:faint:

Agreed. :up:

....although technically JP isn't a rook :;

[AndreReed83]

Well, let me rephrase my view. Unless we replace him with Modrak, I just don't feel that any other person we could replace him with would do a better job. And I also feel he has done fine. It's time for the players to step up and perform up to their talent levels. Yes I know TD put those players together, but eventually the players themselves have to take accountability for not playing like they should. I also think they will do that this year and they will make the playoffs.

[mysticsoto]

That I can't agree with...he is ultimately responsible for how the team does. Obviously having Williams here hurt us significantly but we've gotta bounce back sometime. It might be a tough thing to make the playoffs this year with a rookie QB and holes on both lines but I think we have to get pretty damn close to even think about extending him.
Hmmm...well here we disagree. There are certain things that are beyond TD's realm to control. What if JP goes down with an injury? What if we trade TH and WM goes down with an injury? There are things beyond his control. Should we fire him then if we were to have a losing season with the circumstances above? How is that his fault? All he can do is try and find a good coach and give his coaches the players that they like and prefer. After that, it's up to the coaches and players. People seem to attribute to much to the GM for failures and/or successes. While he can certainly be blamed in part for either, it is NEVER entirely their fault whether we win or lose. That's a team effort!!! Which goes back to what I was saying before about needing good players, good coaches, and the right good players to fit into the scheme the coaches implement...

[The_Philster]

Hmmm...well here we disagree. There are certain things that are beyond TD's realm to control. What if JP goes down with an injury? What if we trade TH and WM goes down with an injury? There are things beyond his control. Should we fire him then if we were to have a losing season with the circumstances above? How is that his fault? All he can do is try and find a good coach and give his coaches the players that they like and prefer. After that, it's up to the coaches and players. People seem to attribute to much to the GM for failures and/or successes. While he can certainly be blamed in part for either, it is NEVER entirely their fault whether we win or lose. That's a team effort!!! Which goes back to what I was saying before about needing good players, good coaches, and the right good players to fit into the scheme the coaches implement...

Those are some good extenuating circumstances

[frank74]

GM's are ultimately responsible for a team not progressing. if a coach sucks at doing his job, it reflects in the GM. If the players suck, it reflects in the GM. the GM is the "head honch" and yes there will always be extenuating circumstances, but it's a business and you have to be prepared for these situations. the bottom line, regardless of TD's past is that the bills should be making the playoffs at this point in TD's tenure.

[Mr. Cynical]

GM's are ultimately responsible for a team not progressing. if a coach sucks at doing his job, it reflects in the GM. If the players suck, it reflects in the GM. the GM is the "head honch" and yes there will always be extenuating circumstances, but it's a business and you have to be prepared for these situations. the bottom line, regardless of TD's past is that the bills should be making the playoffs at this point in TD's tenure.Bingo.

Sure, this player can go down or that player can go down, but again that's part of the game. It's not about "what's fair" - it's about the reality of the "business of football". And as it is a business, the GM is the CEO of the team. When a business is failing over time, ultimately it is not the middle manager takes the blame (although he may be fired to try and fix things, if that doesn't help, the blame will eventually move upwards, not downwards). It is the guy at the top...the CEO...who ultimately takes the blame. That's what goes with being the head honcho - you get the money and the power...but also the responsibility and the blame.

As such, TD can do everything "right" by the numbers, but if the team doesn't win over time, then something has to change. TD has made many changes to date and hopefully they work out. But at some point you have to say his changes aren't working and you need to start over from the top. IMO, that time is drawing very close for TD.

[LifetimeBillsFan]

....In the end, WINNING GAMES IS ALL THAT MATTERS. Drafts, cap management, trades, etc.., are all moot points. Results on the field is the only way to measure success, and the GM is ultimately responsible for that success.....
I'm sorry, but you are wrong about this: Winning games is all that matters to the fans, but MAKING MONEY is what matters most to the owner---who is the one who hires the President and GM of the team!!!

Many fans seem to forget that TD is not just the GM of the Bills, but also the President of the team, who is responsible for making certain that the team makes money for its owner as well as for how well the team does on the field. And, like it or not, TD has done a very good job of keeping the Bills profitable in what is and has been probably the most economically depressed market in the NFL. On that basis alone, Ralph Wilson would probably retain his services.

And, while the team has not made the playoffs or been good enough to seriously challenge for a Super Bowl since TD took over, during the four years of rebuilding under his direction, the team has been very competitive in two of those seasons, finishing with 8-8 and 9-7 records while replacing virtually the entire squad and putting together a core of talented young players on both sides of the ball: Clements, McGee, Spikes, Kelsay, Schobel, M.Williams, Evans, McGahee, Losman, Parrish, Everett, etc. While some will undoubtedly point to the fact that the team has not made the playoffs during this time, the fact is that combining the team's performance on the field--where the Bills twice missed making the playoffs by only one game--with the expansion of its revenue streams off of the field is, in all likelihood, enough to convince any NFL owner to retain the President and GM who has accomplished this much.

Now, you may find plenty of reasons, as a fan, to find fault with TD's performance as the Bills' GM, but to answer the question of whether he will be retained in his position as President and GM of the team, you must put yourself in Ralph Wilson's shoes and factor into your thinking whether TD has done a good job of keeping the team on sound profitable financial ground as well as making it a promising team on the field. And, taking all of that into consideration, it is very likely that Ralph Wilson would be pleased with TD's overall performance and want to keep him, even if the team does not make the playoffs this year--so long as the team shows some promise of further improvement in the near future and continued profitabilty.

For that reason, I do not believe that TD is on as shaky ground as some fans might think.

[finsrclowns]

By the way - it wasn't just the coach's those first few years. TD's drafting was not so great either. Just look at the help we're getting this year from all of TD's drafts for this season.

2001 - 2 starters (Clements and Schobel)
2002 - 1 starter (Mike Williams) - 1 starter 3 years later from a draft where you're picking 4th each round? that makes this draft comparable to our 2000 for futility.
2003 - 3 starters (McGahee, Kelsay, McGee)
2004 - 3 starters (Evans, Losman, Anderson)
2005 - no starters.

No team can win with such little contribution from it's drafts. For comparison, here are New England's numbers:
2001 - 2 starters (Light and Seymour)
2002 - 3 starters (Graham, Branch, and Givens)
2003 - 4 starters (Warren, Wilson, Samuel, and Koppen)
2004 - 1 starter (Wilfork)
2005 - 1 starter (Mankins)

that's 11 starters this season for the Pats and we have 9 ... and they've picked after us in each of the drafts.

Ha ha. You could run a comparison like that against NE for the other 30 teams- that's a big reason NE has won 3 of 4 SB's. Saying Pioli and Bellichick have done a great job doesn't mean TD has done a poor job. TD will ultimately be judged on the impact JP and WM have- if they are both big hits, and WM is looking that way already, TD will have done well and the Bills will have success. It's too early to judge this.

[finsrclowns]

How many hired him?

Really dumb question. How many could have hired him? Could he have taken more than one job? It's impossible to say whether any of the other teams might have hired GW because we took him off the market, and obviously he wouldn't get a HC'ing gig after we fired him. He had a strong resume as the DC of the #1 D in the league and from all reports gave a fantastic interview. The problem with hiring a coach with no NFL HC'ing experience is you NEVER know what you're getting and often times even future stars as HC's fail their first go around as HC (Bill Bellichick comes to mind in Cleveland). GW was a huge mistake and it hurt the Bills results for years but hiring a failed coach is probably inevitable if you're a GM in the league long enough.

[The_Philster]

Really dumb question. How many could have hired him? Could he have taken more than one job? It's impossible to say whether any of the other teams might have hired GW because we took him off the market, and obviously he wouldn't get a HC'ing gig after we fired him. He had a strong resume as the DC of the #1 D in the league and from all reports gave a fantastic interview. The problem with hiring a coach with no NFL HC'ing experience is you NEVER know what you're getting and often times even future stars as HC's fail their first go around as HC (Bill Bellichick comes to mind in Cleveland). GW was a huge mistake and it hurt the Bills results for years but hiring a failed coach is probably inevitable if you're a GM in the league long enough.

take a look at the rest of his posts in this thread if you want more dumb questions :lol:

[TigerJ]

I don't think the clock is ticking for TD. It's more a matter of a tally sheet on the number of major mistakes. I don't think Raoph wilson holds the acquisition of Bledsoe against TD because that arguably turned the franchise around in terms of season ticket sales etc. Gregg Williams was a huge mulligan for TD. I don't think Wilson would swallow too many more of those. However, it looks to me like the Bills have a solid head coach who has assembled a stellar staff. As long as things look to be headed in the right direction, I don't see Wilson pulling the plug.

[TigerJ]

My point is that no one else would have hired GW ... you know how I know that? No one else did and no one hired him after he was here either.



Funny, I've already heard talk about Gregg Williams as a possible candidate for head coach when the next round of coaching changes takes place after this season. I'm not saying he was a good coach for the Bills. I am saying that unless you were in the room when Williams had his interview you could not fairly judge whether or not GW should have been hired or not. He did have awell deserved stellar reputation as a top notch defensive coordinator. When it comes to head coaches, hindsight is a very common gift. I think probably every Bills fan there is can see that the hiring of GW was a mistake. I'm not so sure how obvious it was back when it happened.

[The_Philster]

Funny, I've already heard talk about Gregg Williams as a possible candidate for head coach when the next round of coaching changes takes place after this season. I'm not saying he was a good coach for the Bills. I am saying that unless you were in the room when Williams had his interview you could not fairly judge whether or not GW should have been hired or not. He did have awell deserved stellar reputation as a top notch defensive coordinator. When it comes to head coaches, hindsight is a very common gift. I think probably every Bills fan there is can see that the hiring of GW was a mistake. I'm not so sure how obvious it was back when it happened.

please don't quote his posts in this thread anymore...I still haven't totally recovered from the laughing fit I had last night when I first saw that :crazy: logic :lmao:

[Mr. Cynical]

I'm sorry, but you are wrong about this: Winning games is all that matters to the fans, but MAKING MONEY is what matters most to the owner---who is the one who hires the President and GM of the team!!!I wonder how much money the owners of Arizona or New Orleans makes fielding losing teams year after year in half empty stadiums. You say that winning only matters to the fans....well, the fans are the ones who buy tickets and buy the merchandise. Winning teams get on national TV more often than losing teams. Winning teams with winning players get more promotional benefits and media attention as well.

In the end it all revolves around winning, and the GM is the one ultimately responsible for that happening. Winning will make you more money than losing.

[LifetimeBillsFan]

I wonder how much money the owners of Arizona or New Orleans makes fielding losing teams year after year in half empty stadiums. You say that winning only matters to the fans....well, the fans are the ones who buy tickets and buy the merchandise. Winning teams get on national TV more often than losing teams. Winning teams with winning players get more promotional benefits and media attention as well.

In the end it all revolves around winning, and the GM is the one ultimately responsible for that happening. Winning will make you more money than losing.
I never said that winning "only matters to the fans". You stated that winning was the only thing that was important and I pointed out that, while that may be true for the fan, it is not necesasarily true for the owner--that making money was the owner's first priority. Now, that does not mean that winning is not important to the owner or that it doesn't have a role to play in making money for the owner or that winning doesn't figure into how an owner will evaluate the job performance of the President and GM who is running his team for him. But it is not the most important or sole criterion by which an owner is likely to judge the performance of his team's President and GM--which is the only criterion being used by those who have posted on this thread that have been critical of TD's performance and think that he is on thin ice, including you. My point was and is that RW will evaluate TD's job performance based on additional factors, particularly the way that he has improved the team's financial situation, and that, when you take those additional factors into consideration, it is hard for me to believe that RW will think that TD has done as bad a job as those who are judging his job performance solely on winning seem to believe.

While it is certainly true, as you have pointed out, that constant losing and poor performance on the field will adversely impact a team's ability to make money, that is not the situation that presently exists nor is it an accurate description of what has happened financially with the Bills during the time that TD has been the President and GM of the team. On the contrary, TD has managed to turn around the team's financial situation and "put fannies in the seats" while rebuilding the team. In the process, the teams that he has put together have managed to break even and have a winning season--albeit without making a playoff appearance--in two of the four seasons that TD has been at the helm. Like it or not, trading for D.Bledsoe "put fannies in the seats" when the franchise was moribund on the field, coming off of a 3-13 rebuilding season, and helped to interest other more valuable and talented free agents, such as T.Spikes and S.Adams, to the team, which served to accellerate the rebuilding process. Rather than playing to half-empty houses for 3-4 years while rebuilding, even though Bledsoe was a disaster on the field and did not have the ability to make the team into serious playoff contenders, the Bills have shown enough promise to energize their fan base--in a way that the fans of New Orleans and Arizona have never been energized--while TD has gone about the process of building a core of young players, supplimented by older veterans, that has the potential to make the Bills contenders for several years in the not too distant future.

Even if the team takes a step backwards this season--a distinct possibility with a first year starting QB--the fact that TD has put the team on a sound financial basis, putting it in better condition than it was when he took over, combined with the fact that he has laid the groundwork, which I do not believe is yet complete, to make the team successful, on the field as well as at the box-office, will probably be sufficient to convince RW to keep TD at the helm for at least another year or two--so long as the team does not collapse on the field and continues to show promise.

Now, that is not to say that winning--or the promise that the team will soon become serious playoff contenders--will not factor into RW's decision: it most certainly will. But, it won't be the only criterion that he uses. Nor, I dare say, will he simply look at the team's winning percentage under TD's leadership--as some fans do--and base his evaluation of the job that TD has done in building the team solely on that. I am sure that, in evaluating the state of the team on the field, he will look at the fact that there has been a virtually complete turnover of personnel, the progress of the current coaching staff, and the odds that the young core of players that TD has assembled will fulfill their promise. If RW, based on his years of experience in the game, concludes that TD has the team on the right track and that the core group of players that he has assembled have a good chance to become the winners that you and every Bills fan want, then, he's not going to fire TD if the team plays hard and reasonably well, but doesn't have a winning season or make the playoffs this year. Doing so, I'm sure RW knows all too well, would mean bringing in a new GM, a new coaching staff and rebuilding the team once again--dooming the Bills to become the kind of losing franchise that Arizona, New Orleans and several others already are. So, unless the team collapses and plays without heart, I don't think he will make that move at the end of this season--IMHO, he will wait at least a year or two to see what Losman, Evans, Parrish, etc. and this coaching staff can do first.

[Mr. Cynical]

Doing so, I'm sure RW knows all too well, would mean bringing in a new GM, a new coaching staff and rebuilding the team once again--dooming the Bills to become the kind of losing franchise that Arizona, New Orleans and several others already are.Just to point out, we are already in the company of those two teams over the last 4 years:

New Orleans: 32-32
Buffalo: 26-38
Arizona: 22-42

Even though Buffalo's economy is bad, what the Bills have on their side is that Buffalo fans are rabid and totally dedicated. If they played in the majority of other cities, you would see half empy games IMO.

Granted you make some good points about the additional criteria that should be used in evaluating a GM, but I stand by my point - winning is all that matters. It won't matter if TD does all the "right" things...if the Bills continually miss the playoffs, he should be fired. Now, whether RW will take 1, 2, 10 years (assuming he is still around) I don't know. But it doesn't negate the fact that he *should* be fired fielding a non-playoff team for 5+ years.

[BuffaloRanger]

Damn Lifetime you write alot.

Arizona and NO fans have no history of being energized like Bills fans. The Bills won championships in the 60s and had the SB years in the 90s. Those other teams have no history like that.

How old is Ralph? How many more years of lucidity does he have on this earth? Don't you think he'd like to hoist the SB trophy that has eluded him for 40 years - and might be the only way he makes the HOF? Really? What does money mean to him now? Sure he doesn't want to lose millions, but ask him what a SB would be worth to him. You can't win a SB if you don't make the playoffs.

Ralph on his deathbed: I never won a Super Bowl, but it's OK. I made alot of money to leave to my wife and daughters. Maybe the team will do better in LA."

TD should have had the guts to fire GW or at least Gilbride during the bye week in2003. Hundreds of fans called for it. Petitions were started. Are we smarter than TD? I do know the Bills went 2-6 in those final 8 games - losing miserably - then TD had to fire GW. A change was needed and he didn't make it. There were other assistants on the team then with NFL HC experience. Could they have done worse?

[LifetimeBillsFan]

.....It won't matter if TD does all the "right" things...if the Bills continually miss the playoffs, he should be fired. Now, whether RW will take 1, 2, 10 years (assuming he is still around) I don't know. But it doesn't negate the fact that he *should* be fired fielding a non-playoff team for 5+ years.
I don't think that TD has an unlimited contract or that Ralph Wislon would hesitate to fire him under the right circumstances. I just don't believe that those circumstances exist at the present time or will at the end of the season--unless, as I have said before, the team shows a lack of heart and collapses in the face of adversity (which they are bound to face with a first year starting QB) this season.

I think that TD has 2 or 3 years, at the outside, to show that he has put together a winning team. If the team is competitive and Losman shows promise this season, I think TD will get a pass from RW for this season, even if the Bills step back a couple of games to 7-9 and do not have a winning season because RW has been around long enough to realize that it is very rare for a team to win a lot with a "rookie" QB (which is basically what JP is). But, even then, I think RW will look to see if the rest of the team plays hard and, if they don't, only then do I think TD's job might be in jeopardy at the end of this season.

However, after this season, I think that RW is going to want to see a winning team on the field thereafter. If the Bills make the playoffs, TD's job would probably be safe at that point for another year. But, then, I think RW would rightly expect them to compete for a SB the following year. If the Bills accomplish that on the field or look like they will, I think RW will fire TD. I just don't think it will happen at the end of this season if the team plays competitively. Now, if they collapse in the face of adversity like they did two years ago, I think everyone's job will be in jeopardy. But, barring that, I think TD has at least another season after this one to work with.


Damn Lifetime you write alot.....
TD should have had the guts to fire GW or at least Gilbride during the bye week in2003. Hundreds of fans called for it. Petitions were started. Are we smarter than TD? I do know the Bills went 2-6 in those final 8 games - losing miserably - then TD had to fire GW. A change was needed and he didn't make it. There were other assistants on the team then with NFL HC experience. Could they have done worse?
I know....sorry, but it takes time to explain a complicated issue and not simply give a gut reaction.

As for firing GW when you say TD should have: Who would TD have replaced GW with? K.Gilbride? No, he was on his way out of the door with GW. D.LeBeau? Maybe. But, he was brought in to help bring Gray along as DC and was not someone that TD wanted to commit to and he was a defensive coach--the Bills obviously needed someone who could fix their offense not the defense. J.Gray? At the time Gray was still learning how to be a DC and wasn't ready to assume the responsibilities of a HC. Who else on the staff could have taken over? Krumrie? Blackmon?

If TD had replaced GW during the season with a young coach from the staff or one of the unemployed former NFL HC's he would have had to make a committment to that coach to be the HC for the next several years. He would not have been able to interview any HC, OC or DC who was under contract to another team and whoever he did hire would have had to work with basically the same coaching staff the team already had because most of the assistants out there were still under contract to other teams and could not be approached. So, you would have ended up making a committment to a coach who might not have been in your top 5 of possible replacements and he would have begun to build his staff from the ranks of the unemployed assistants. That's simply not the best way to go about building a new coaching regime that you are going to be putting your job on the line for.

Maybe a new HC could have gotten a couple of more wins out of the team simply by coming in and shaking things up. Maybe. But, that Bills team was not good enough, especially with the injury to Moulds, to go far in the playoffs, even if they managed to get that far, which is doubtful. And, by waiting until the end of the season--sacrificing that season essentially--TD was able to get access to his choice of all of the HCs, DCs, OCs, and assistants whose contracts expired at the end of the season. Now, you can argue about whether his choice of M.Mularkey as HC was the right one and whether the staff that he has is good enough to get the team to the next level, but think about this: Mularkey, McNally, T.Tolbert, and T.Clements were all under contract to other teams at the time and could not have been hired by the Bills HC; T.Coughlin was the only HC candidate who is currently a HC in the league who would have been available at the time that TD might have hired without having to relinquish his own duties (D.Green would have wanted some of the powers of the GM that he has in Arizona).

It's easy to say that TD should have fired GW at that point, but who could he have hired at that point that would have been worth making any kind of committment to? And, without access to the assistants who were under contract at the time, how much of a difference would that have ended up making? You're talking about taking a huge gamble with the future of the franchise that could very easily have blown up in his face very quickly. TD chose to take the safer and more sensible route, even if it meant more losses for the team that season.

[BuffaloRanger]

Someone will have to help me out here. I can't remember this guy's name. Not a glowing endorsement, but at the time we all knew his name.

He was an assistant with the Bills in 2003 that had Head Coached for 2 years in the late 80s. At the time he was the fans choice as interim HC.

Someone please help me out. They don't have him listed on the BuffaloBills.com - but they don't have dick lebeau listed either.

What was that guy's name?

TD should have promoted this guy as Interim coach for 2003, then he could have still hired Mularky.

[MikeInRoch]

It's clearly TD's fault that Buffalo didn't make the playoffs last season - he should have been yelling out to the field telling Nate to knock down that 4th down pass against Jacksonville. :chuckle:

[BuffaloRanger]

Les Steckle was the name of the coach. He was the RBs Coach in 2003. He was a former Vikings coach in the 80s TD should have made him OC and Lebeau the HC on an interim basis.

There's your answer. Try typing in "Fire Gregg Williams" in the MB search. This was before your time here. Look at all the threads from mid 2003 pleading for TD to fire GW/KG. But TD was too smart. Much smarter than the fans. 2-6 over the last 8 games is really smart, huh?

[TedMock]

Some coaches take a first go-around to do well, and I honestly think that Gregg will succeed in his next head job. Before anybody gets on me for saying that, please realize that I wanted him gone by that last season. I was not happy at all about Gilbride, though. He's a proven, repeated offender. Bellichick had 6 seasons with the Browns, and I think 5 were losing seasons. Williams can certainly coach defense as proven in Tennessee, Buffalo, and Washington. However, his management skills need to be worked on.

To answer the original question regarding TD: I think he gets two seasons starting with this year. His drafts have been decent, could be better, but they weren't bad overall. His free agent moves have been good overall. This team is much more talented than before he got here. One big gamble that didn't work for him was Drew Bledsoe. Bledsoe was the wild card. If Bledsoe plays above average, we're in the playoffs 2 of the last three years. That cannot be said with any other player on the team. Bledsoe was the one guy that had a big, negative impact. I pulled hard for the guy, as I hoped he could prove the skeptics wrong, but he didn't. I think he became so gun-shy that he took major steps backwards. Our line actually started to play half-way decent last year, but he didn't get better at the same rate as the line did. I think the line needs tweaking, but I don't think it's as bad as others do. I don't think we need Losman to hide the weaknesses of the line, rather we need him to move in the pocket like most teams need their QB's to do. We'll go through growing pains with Losman. Hopefully not too many! This team has gotten much faster and much more talented over the last few seasons, unfortunately our "ace-in-the-hole" was indeed a joker in a game without wildcards.

[mysticsoto]

Some coaches take a first go-around to do well, and I honestly think that Gregg will succeed in his next head job. Before anybody gets on me for saying that, please realize that I wanted him gone by that last season. I was not happy at all about Gilbride, though. He's a proven, repeated offender. Bellichick had 6 seasons with the Browns, and I think 5 were losing seasons. Williams can certainly coach defense as proven in Tennessee, Buffalo, and Washington. However, his management skills need to be worked on.

To answer the original question regarding TD: I think he gets two seasons starting with this year. His drafts have been decent, could be better, but they weren't bad overall. His free agent moves have been good overall. This team is much more talented than before he got here. One big gamble that didn't work for him was Drew Bledsoe. Bledsoe was the wild card. If Bledsoe plays above average, we're in the playoffs 2 of the last three years. That cannot be said with any other player on the team. Bledsoe was the one guy that had a big, negative impact. I pulled hard for the guy, as I hoped he could prove the skeptics wrong, but he didn't. I think he became so gun-shy that he took major steps backwards. Our line actually started to play half-way decent last year, but he didn't get better at the same rate as the line did. I think the line needs tweaking, but I don't think it's as bad as others do. I don't think we need Losman to hide the weaknesses of the line, rather we need him to move in the pocket like most teams need their QB's to do. We'll go through growing pains with Losman. Hopefully not too many! This team has gotten much faster and much more talented over the last few seasons, unfortunately our "ace-in-the-hole" was indeed a joker in a game without wildcards.
Nicely said.

[LifetimeBillsFan]

Some coaches take a first go-around to do well, and I honestly think that Gregg will succeed in his next head job. Before anybody gets on me for saying that, please realize that I wanted him gone by that last season. I was not happy at all about Gilbride, though. He's a proven, repeated offender. Bellichick had 6 seasons with the Browns, and I think 5 were losing seasons. Williams can certainly coach defense as proven in Tennessee, Buffalo, and Washington. However, his management skills need to be worked on.

To answer the original question regarding TD: I think he gets two seasons starting with this year. His drafts have been decent, could be better, but they weren't bad overall. His free agent moves have been good overall. This team is much more talented than before he got here. One big gamble that didn't work for him was Drew Bledsoe. Bledsoe was the wild card. If Bledsoe plays above average, we're in the playoffs 2 of the last three years. That cannot be said with any other player on the team. Bledsoe was the one guy that had a big, negative impact. I pulled hard for the guy, as I hoped he could prove the skeptics wrong, but he didn't. I think he became so gun-shy that he took major steps backwards. Our line actually started to play half-way decent last year, but he didn't get better at the same rate as the line did. I think the line needs tweaking, but I don't think it's as bad as others do. I don't think we need Losman to hide the weaknesses of the line, rather we need him to move in the pocket like most teams need their QB's to do. We'll go through growing pains with Losman. Hopefully not too many! This team has gotten much faster and much more talented over the last few seasons, unfortunately our "ace-in-the-hole" was indeed a joker in a game without wildcards.
I agree. Well put!

[helmetguy]

1...and your point is?
Who would you put as the best GM in the league? A few years back, TD was thought of as one of the best..along with Polian, Butler, Wolf, and 1 other I can't think of. Take the best GM in the league and give him Williams as the head coach...you really think he's going to produce a winner?
Charley Casserly, maybe? He became a casualty in Washington when Dan Snyder bought the team.

[The_Philster]

Charley Casserly, maybe? He became a casualty in Washington when Dan Snyder bought the team.

Yeah...I think that's the other guy I was thinking of

[finsrclowns]

I vote we install a word limit on posts. My head hurts. :blowup:

[feelthepain]

With a lack of activity at 1 Bills drive. I find myself wondering about TD. I haven't heard anything regarding a contract extention. I wonder if Ralph is growing impatient with the teams lack of on field production. It seems that every year the team finds a goat to blame it's misfortunes on. Year 1 it was the salary cap. Year 2 it was the defense. Year 3 it was the head Coach. Year 4 it was Drew Bledsoe. And now heading into year 5 it has the potential of being the Young Quarter back. When is the put up or shut up for TD. You can only chase your tail around for so long. In the Salary cap era, you can not have a perfect team. There is always going to be weakness in the Armor. His drafts have been hit or miss, and has a tendency to ignore the offensive line.

What do you need to see inorder to retain your confidence in our General manager?

Wait a minuet, I thought the Bills were the most talented team in the universe, how is it TD's not doing his job if your so stacked with talent? Wouldn't that be coaching if the talent was there to be coached???
Seems to me If the Bills were so talented then everybody in camp talent would be happy!!

[Mr. Cynical]

Wait a minuet, I thought the Bills were the most talented team in the universe, how is it TD's not doing his job if your so stacked with talent? Wouldn't that be coaching if the talent was there to be coached???
Seems to me If the Bills were so talented then everybody in camp talent would be happy!!
Would that be a minuet from Bach or Handel?

:lol:

[camelcowboy]

Wait a minuet, I thought the Bills were the most talented team in the universe, how is it TD's not doing his job if your so stacked with talent? Wouldn't that be coaching if the talent was there to be coached???
Seems to me If the Bills were so talented then everybody in camp talent would be happy!!
I have called in a team of monkeys from all four corners of the world to help translate that last sentence. I think ive figured it out.

Buffalo has a talented D-Fence, running back, and special teams. I'm critical on decisions such as not pulling the plug on bledsoe, his lack of attention for the offensive line, " i still think there better then the Dolphin's" Greg Williams coaching the team that i thought had talent into the ground. Im not a fan of his attitude towards the community. I believe that we have talent now, and that im sick of excuses. As you put it so articulately :down: we have been at the bottom of the division for too long now. And enought is enought.

[camelcowboy]

Would that be a minuet from Bach or Handel?

:lol:
:goodpost: couldn't have put it better myself.

[feelthepain]

I have called in a team of monkeys from all four corners of the world to help translate that last sentence. I think ive figured it out.

Buffalo has a talented D-Fence, running back, and special teams. I'm critical on decisions such as not pulling the plug on bledsoe, his lack of attention for the offensive line, " i still think there better then the Dolphin's" Greg Williams coaching the team that i thought had talent into the ground. Im not a fan of his attitude towards the community. I believe that we have talent now, and that im sick of excuses. As you put it so articulately :down: we have been at the bottom of the division for too long now. And enought is enought.

Soooo, your talented, but your not!?!?!? You sound like a woman. "I just can't make up my mind", need to visit the powder room till you decide? How is you keep talking about all this talent and now you have a thread that you say that I'm right and your tired of being cellar dwellars. I sure wish I knew what the he** your trying to say. But I guess you don't really know anything and your just a talking head. But hey, with only half your team with any talent and no playoffs in forever your team is awsome. So you can sleep well.

[wchutalkinboutwillis]

Wait a second. You type "Sooooo" and refer to Defense as "D-Fence" Absolutely nothing against it but you sound like a Canadian Woman. Eh? Lemme guess, you work at fancy Gentlemen's Club in Fort Erie.

[feelthepain]

Wait a second. You type "Sooooo" and refer to Defense as "D-Fence" Absolutely nothing against it but you sound like a Canadian Woman. Eh? Lemme guess, you work at fancy Gentlemen's Club in Fort Erie.
Ya' know, there are other forums for you to share your fantasys on!!

[camelcowboy]

Soooo, your talented, but your not!?!?!? You sound like a woman. "I just can't make up my mind", need to visit the powder room till you decide? How is you keep talking about all this talent and now you have a thread that you say that I'm right and your tired of being cellar dwellars. I sure wish I knew what the he** your trying to say. But I guess you don't really know anything and your just a talking head. But hey, with only half your team with any talent and no playoffs in forever your team is awsome. So you can sleep well.Yeah skippy, keep talking. I lost interest around 4:00 pm. I can only pound my head so many times against a wall trying to get you to explain one of your points. I guess im just a "talking head" well tell me genius don't most heads have mouths? Mouth's are connected to the larynx which is used for talking. Most people talk, barring some sort of physical problem. It's just like the expression "have your cake and eat it too" Yeah, if i have a cake, why wouldn't i eat. Stop trying to be whitty or funny because your not. So this is my last thought to you. I believe the Bills have talent but have underachieved the last couple years, THEY WILL BE BETTER THAN THE DOLPHINS... Im not sure how to translate that into ****** so you can grasp it, and i really don't care. I will not respond to anymore of your post until you can back up the most stupid opinons i have ever heard from anyone who can breath.

How is Ronnie Brown better than Wills McGahee. I haven't seen you address that priceless nuget. I don't care what else you post, you have no creditbility.

Now if you excuses me I have go "powder my nose" I wouldn't want to keep your mother waiting, she been patiently waiting in the stall.

Yeah, its immature and i really don't care. You answer that one question and maybe ill continue to listen to your pointless babble. Right now fighting with you feels I picked a fight with corky from Life goes on. Unlike you at least he could graduated from highschool.

http://www.comedycentral.com/images/tvshows/cy/puppets/special_ed_a3.jpg
"^Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaah, My Name is FEELTHEPAIN, Go Dolphins. They were good 2003 so that means even, though their personal is way different, and growing older, they'll be just as good. 1 losing record in 16 seasons, that means their going to be great this year. I blame it all on Coaching, its not their talent... Saban is going to take us to the superbowl, even though its has first year as a head coach in the NFL." If my post are biased then what do you call this crap you keep regurgiating over and over.

[Mr. Cynical]

fantasies

[camelcowboy]

fantasies

:snicker2: :squish: