Pat Williams says:"[Buffalo] doesn't want to win..."

[ILOVEMIBILLS]

Didn't see this posted. Got it from NFL Fans (http://nflfans.com)...

Williams Brings Size And Savvy
By Tim Yotter
Date: May 14, 2005


http://www.nflfans.com/draft/forum/viewtopic.php?forum=1&showtopic=40462&fromblock=yes



Pat Williams was the first free agent to sign with the Vikings in March, and the team is hoping his impact on a young defensive line is nearly as quick. He brings size, experience and a Pro Bowl anchor to the middle of the defensive line, even if he didn’t feel appreciated in Buffalo.

Pat Williams signed with the Vikings less than 24 hours into this year’s free-agent signing period, and his acquisition is a key component to the Vikings’ continuing theme to build their defense from the front back.

Besides back-to-back double-digit sack seasons for Lance Johnstone and Kevin Williams – and the latter going to the Pro Bowl after 2004 – the Vikings’ defensive line hasn’t had a consistent presence, one that puts fear in offenses. But around the league, from sports-talk radio shows to print journalists, NFL observers are talking up the newest version of the purple’s front four.

Johnstone has put in his time in the league, but Kevin Williams is entering his third NFL season, Kenechi Udeze, Spencer Johnson and Darrion Scott their second and Erasmus James his first. Yes, the Vikings’ defensive line is generally one of great hope and promise – and not as much experience.

Besides Johnstone and Pat Williams.

[mybills]

“(Buffalo general manager Tom Donahoe) doesn’t know what he’s doing down there."

Thems are fightin' words!

[The Spaz]

Tim Yotter is who?!:confused:

[Dozerdog]

Nice story.


I did have to shorten it and added a link to the original. As a rule, we can't post entire articles - just a sample of it and a link to the original.

Damn copyright laws....:(

[Italian Stallion]

Washed up DT...Im sorry, I was saying it long before they even decided to let him walk....We got some young guys that needed to be put in the lineup and by the end of the year this year, Pat will be an old crusty on another dissapointing, underachiving Vikings team....

He'll probally get injured anyway...but not after they start out 7-1, then win 2 more games the rest of the year..The Packers and Lions offense will light them up again, and the team that is always EXPECTED to win wont. Eagles or Falcons own the NFC.

[Dozerdog]

Sounds like just another player with "They didn't give me what I want...and they can't win without me" syndrome.

[Marvelous]

The last time i said this i got negged twice grr! BUT Pat Williams shouldn't be a top paid DT/NT. He is a space clogger. Granted they are needed to free up LBS but I recall last season that Pat rarely did much and seemed to miss alot of playing time to fatique. I miss him a bunch and used to get very excited whenever he made a nice play ((similar as i am with every Moulds catch)) I think his price tag is nuts. I'M 100% content with the pressure Adams will bring and most likely Edwards too. I just prefer the DT's that bum rush the line rather then eat blockers..........

[mybills]

I'm not fat, they are! :wail:

[jpdex12]

“(Buffalo general manager Tom Donahoe) doesn’t know what he’s doing down there."

Thems are fightin' words!
**** that fat ****er! I hope that Minnesota gets beat by Arizona to miss the playoffs again!

[mybills]

:couch:

[Sportsuser101]

Edwards played better alot of times last year and I'm sure he can stay on the field more then Pat has the last 2-3 years. I'd be suprised if Pat was on the field 50% of the defensive plays and not because of injury because his fat @$$ was exhausted. Our defense will not miss a beat.

[chernobylwraiths]

I was under the impression that the coaches decided who to play and when. Wasn't there a problem once when Adams didn't want ot come out? I mean if the players want to play more and aren't allowed, how is that his fault that he doesn't play as much?

Seems to me like another "Hey we loved you while you were here but now that you aren't you suck" attitudes.

[Jan Reimers]

Sour grapes from the Fat One.

[justasportsfan]

Good. Someone's gotta light up TD. Antoine Winfield said the same thing. So far Winfields gone to the playoffs while we haven't under TD. Of course if it wasn't for TD's moves either ,they wouldn't have gotten the contracts they got from those teams. TD needs to get us to the playoffs soon. It won't be long before the fins will be a better team under Saban. Don't forget, the Pats have owned TD as well and the jets have been to the playoffs.

[jpdex12]

Good. Someone's gotta light up TD. Antoine Winfield said the same thing. So far Winfields gone to the playoffs while we haven't under TD. Of course if it wasn't for TD's moves either ,they wouldn't have gotten the contracts they got from those teams. TD needs to get us to the playoffs soon. It won't be long before the fins will be a better team under Saban. Don't forget, the Pats have owned TD as well and the jets have been to the playoffs.
Guess what Bud? TD dumped Winfield last year for the same reason that he let fat*** go this year and our defense never missed a beat! So piss on Winfield and Williams. And for the other zoner talking about the turncoat attitudes towards PW, he started the bull**** first by slamming TD. Our defense won't miss a beat this year either.
Can we get one of the Buffalo Zoners to unload a couple dozen eggs on the facade of PW's auto detailing business?

[TigerJ]

Sour grapes from the Fat One.

Yeah, this is classic sour grapes. Pat is on the downside of his career. He wanted one last big contract and the Vikings were dumb enough to over pay him. Pat Williams does not have the stamina to be a full time player at DT any more. He can be a force when he's in the game, but Minnesota will not get their money's worth.

[YardRat]

Big Pat's going to help Minnesota be one of the best teams in the NFC against the run this year, and as far as I'm concerned the Vikes should be the favorites at this point to dethrone the Eagles.

Sour grapes because he didn't get the big bucks from TD, but give the man his due...he was a player.

[jpdex12]

Big Pat's going to help Minnesota be one of the best teams in the NFC against the run this year, and as far as I'm concerned the Vikes should be the favorites at this point to dethrone the Eagles.

Sour grapes because he didn't get the big bucks from TD, but give the man his due...he was a player.
Yard Rat, did you say "was a player"?

[Turf]

I'd say with TD's track record the fact that he remains clueless on how to build a champion, let alone a playoff team, is in the pudding.
Add to that his arrogant demeanor, and the way he treats players, doesn't make Buffalo an attractive place to play.

[Tatonka]

Can someone please post the relivant friggen part of that article? who the hell cares about the crap posted above.. someone post what pat williams said beside one damn quote.

[Dozerdog]

I guess the link is no longer valid.....



That wasn’t the case in Buffalo, where he was apparently perennially frustrated. When asked if Buffalo was concerned about him putting on too much weight (his 317-pound listing on the roster seems like part of a pound-shaving scandal), Williams isn’t shy about his opinion on the Bills.

“(Buffalo general manager Tom Donahoe) doesn’t know what he’s doing down there. I want to play every snap. I don’t have no weight problem, that’s the other guys. I’m good.”

“I guess they don’t want to win. I’d been there eight years and had no problems. I didn’t cause any problems.”

Williams sounded downright frustrated with the situation in Buffalo, repeatedly saying he didn’t know what the problem was there but that he didn’t think they wanted to win. It’s that last part that has him looking forward to his time in Minnesota, where he, like many in NFL circles, feels the Vikings have a chance to do well in the playoffs. [I]

[Tatonka]

definately sounds like sour grapes..

thanks dozer. :posrep:

[Novacane]

I liked PW as a player but :rolleyes: at that statement. Bledsoe and Jennings prolly think we don't want to win either. With the egos of pro-athletes they think they are the answer and if the team does not agree than they must not be interested in winning.

[LifetimeBillsFan]

PW's comments about playing every down and not being fat are simply ludicrous. He's just mad that he didn't get the contract he wanted to stay in Buffalo because the Bills have two younger, cheaper guys to take his place.

Now, Pat's been a good player, but he's on the downside of his career and isn't going to be worth the kind of money that he's getting from the Vikes--at least not to the Bills, who have two young guys that they have been grooming to take over the position at less money. What's the sense of drafting and developing young prospects if you're not going to give them a chance to play and show what they can do before their rookie contracts expire? And, how are you going to get them some experience and find out if they have what it takes to play the position if you don't rotate them in for a few plays on a regular basis? I know that every player in every sport wants to play as much as he possibly can--every defensive down in PW's case, but from a physical standpoint that doesn't make sense (see Marv Levy's book for his views on this!)--and that's expecially the case for a big guy like Pat Williams. As well as the Bills' defense has played the last couple of years, his criticisms--which should have been directed at the coaches, not the GM, since it is the coaches who determine playing time--simply don't hold water.

I happen to think that PW still has one or two good years left in him and that he will help the Vikes pathetic run defense, but, at his age, it did not make sense for the Bills to tie up a lot of money in both him and S.Adams at the expense of paying and retaining their younger players. No professional athlete wants to admit that he is getting older or on the downside of his career, but the fact is that PW and S.Adams are both closer to the end of their careers than they are to the middle.

Besides which, last summer TD basically told everyone that he could only afford to re-sign one of the Bills three big FAs this year and that the first one to come to an agreement with the team would be the one he would sign. That was A.Schobel. And, having signed Schobel, TD let PW and J.Jennings walk--and they both ended up getting contracts that were far more than the Bills could have afforded to pay them in the first place. If PW's unhappy with that now, well, he should have done something about it when he had a chance to do so. And, now, personally, I think that he should shut up, cash his fat paychecks and go about his business in Minny instead of trying to justify the choices that he made by knocking TD and the Bills.

[don137]

I agree it sounds like sour grapes. I think the statement of "I don't think Buffalo cares about winning" is just idiotic. I think the rebuilding took a lot longer because the team with Bledsoe at the helm can only do so much, TD has made some bad draft choices and he never addressed the o-line.
Pat is 33 years old I believe. You don't pump big money into players at that age. Funny thing is before free agency all Pat talked about is wanting to end his career here. This article basically tells a different story.

[Captain gameboy]

Bilingual capability is a must when reading disgruntled pro athlete quotes.

Disgruntled Pro Athlete:
"It isn't about money. It was never about money. Its about respect."

Translation: "It is totally about money and always was."

Disgruntled Pro athlete:
"They just don't want to win."

Translation: "They just didn't want to pay me what I wanted them to pay me."

I'm sure we'll be treated to many more league-wide "disgruntleisms" after the June 1st cuts.

[justasportsfan]

Bilingual capability is a must when reading disgruntled pro athlete quotes.

Disgruntled Pro Athlete:
"It isn't about money. It was never about money. Its about respect."

Translation: "It is totally about money and always was."

Disgruntled Pro athlete:
"They just don't want to win."

Translation: "They just didn't want to pay me what I wanted them to pay me."

I'm sure we'll be treated to many more league-wide "disgruntleisms" after the June 1st cuts.I agree. He'd be singing a different tune if the bills paid him what he got from Minny.

[camelcowboy]

Yeah its sour grapes,

“(Buffalo general manager Tom Donahoe) doesn’t know what he’s doing down there. I want to play every snap. I don’t have no weight problem, that’s the other guys. I’m good.”

Sounds like to me that the bills had no intentions on keeping him. I think its great that he called his "Best Friend" Sam Adam fat. TD probally said if you want to play here it will be for alot less, and the new guys will be receiving more playing time.

[BuffaloRanger]

Sour Grapes goes both ways fellas. Look at all the sour grapes from the fans.

"He's on the downside of his career" "He was fat" "He didn't play enough"

But when he was a Bill, he was "awesome", right? PW was a great player while he was here. Active in the community, appreciative of the fans, etc.

Edwards didn't do much over the last 8 games, and Anderson is a complete unknown. Hopefully one of them will be able to step up.

It's true the Bills couldn't afford him. Things may have been different if TD would have been man enough to sit down with PW and JJ and explain to them that the money isn't there. TD showed zero class by letting them swing in the air, by not telling them their fate. That's the equivalent of breaking up with a girl by not calling her anymore. PW and JJ have publicly complained about this. So of course PW is going to trash Tom "no playoffs in 6 seasons = doesn't know how to win" Donahoe

The same usual suspects will pipe up and say "How do you know TD did this? Don't believe the agents." But TD has not denied it. There is not one media outlet that reported that TD talked to them, which by the way is a reporter's job. If discussions took place, they wouldn't be secret, and would have been reported.

[Bulldog]

[QUOTE=BuffaloRanger]It's true the Bills couldn't afford him. Things may have been different if TD would have been man enough to sit down with PW and JJ and explain to them that the money isn't there. TD showed zero class by letting them swing in the air, by not telling them their fate. That's the equivalent of breaking up with a girl by not calling her anymore. PW and JJ have publicly complained about this. So of course PW is going to trash Tom "no playoffs in 6 seasons = doesn't know how to win" Donahoe[QUOTE]

So if TD would have sat down and talked with Pat and JJ they both would have givin Buffalo a hometown discount? And how did TD let them swing in the air? As stated, TD made offers to all three (AS, PW & JJ) and said that he was going to spend the money on the first player willing to sit down and hammer a deal out. AS jumped at the opportunity and now has a new contract. At that point both JJ and PW should have known that the Bills were going to let them test the FA market. So, I guess TD really didn't let either "swing in the air". They made a decision to test the FA market and Buffalo let them walk. Welcome to the FA era in the NFL.

[LifetimeBillsFan]

...It's true the Bills couldn't afford him. Things may have been different if TD would have been man enough to sit down with PW and JJ and explain to them that the money isn't there. TD showed zero class by letting them swing in the air, by not telling them their fate. That's the equivalent of breaking up with a girl by not calling her anymore. PW and JJ have publicly complained about this. So of course PW is going to trash Tom "no playoffs in 6 seasons = doesn't know how to win" Donahoe

The same usual suspects will pipe up and say "How do you know TD did this? Don't believe the agents." But TD has not denied it. There is not one media outlet that reported that TD talked to them, which by the way is a reporter's job. If discussions took place, they wouldn't be secret, and would have been reported.
I love how you--as a Donohoe hater--have chosen to ignore the facts that don't support your argument and only cite those that appear to support your POV.

FYI: Before last season--before the end of training camp--TD told everyone in the media, etc. that the Bills felt that they only had enough money to sign ONE of the three main players who would become unrestricted free agents after the season: A.Schobel, J.Jennings and P.Williams. When he made those statement and when he broke off negotiations with all three of these players, TD also told everyone, including the media, that he had told the players and their agents that the ONE player that he would sign would be the one that came to terms with the team FIRST.

How much clearer do you, Williams and Jennings expect Donahoe to have been about his intentions? He told them precisely what he was prepared to do and gave all three players an opportunity to come to terms with the team and be the ONE player re-signed.

A.Schobel came to terms with the Bills before J.Jennings or P.Williams. That made Schobel the ONE player that TD told all three players that he was going to re-sign. Jennings or Williams could have told their agents to make sure that they were that one player, but they did not. Schobel did.

At that point, Williams and Jennings KNEW what the deal was--TD had told everyone what it was before Schobel signed. Once Schobel was re-signed, that was it--TD had already made it clear that he was only going to try to re-sign one player. Once that was done, that was the end of it--TD had already told them what the deal was, so why was there any need for him to sit down with them and repeat it after he had already done that previously? They knew that Schobel had re-signed, everyone knew that Schobel had re-signed. So why do you think that TD owed them another sit-down or a repeat of his explanation of what he was going to do? He told them ahead of time what he was going to do and then he did it. Why is TD at fault for doing that?

You said that TD let Jennings and Williams swing in the air: No, he didn't. They had as much chance to be the ONE player that he said that he would re-sign as Schobel had. And, after Schobel re-signed, TD did not string Jennings or Williams along--he repeatedly told the press that, while he would like to re-sign one or both of them, he did not see how he could get that done. And, all of this was done BEFORE LAST SEASON BEGAN!

Now, supposedly, TD subsequently made an offer to Williams after this season that Pat rejected--considering that TD had said previously said that he only had enough money to re-sign ONE of the three FAs and had already done so, the fact that TD made any offer at all was a courtesy to P.Williams that TD did not have to show him given what he had previously stated that his position was. That P.Williams rejected that offer as insufficient was not Donahoe's fault (because he was not obligated to make any offer at all) at that point, but on Williams. If P.Williams had wanted to continue playing for the Bills he could have re-signed with the Bills before Schobel did or accepted the offer that TD made after he had already made it clear that he didn't know if the team could afford to sign anyone other than that one player. But, even if TD didn't make this subsequent offer, as I said earlier, he was never obligated to do so because he had already told everyone that he was only going to re-sign ONE of the three players and he had already done so--before the beginning of last season. Having done that, there was no obligation on his part to offer the remaining two unsigned players anything at all because they already had been told what the deal was!

You compared what TD did to breaking up with a girl without calling her any more. That is a spurious analogy. In my view it is much more like going out with three different girls who know each other and saying to them that you can only afford the time, money and effort to go out with one of them and you will pick the one who does "X" for you first. If all three are given some time to do "X" for you and one of them does "X" while the other two don't and everyone knows that the one girl did "X" for you, why do you have to call or sit down with the two who didn't do "X" and explain to them that you are not going to see them any more because they didn't do "X" for you and the other girl did? They know that already! You already told them that you were only going to continue going out with the girl who did "X" for you first--why do you owe them any further explanation? To "rub it in" that the other girl is willing to do "X" for you and they aren't? They know that already and they know why you are no longer calling because, like TD, you told them what you were going to do right from the git go. That's not hanging them out to dry or leading them on in any way: you told them what the deal was and what the consequences would be. And, TD did the same with Williams, Jennings and Schobel. What more do you want the guy to do?

Oh, but I forgot, you are convinced that TD is an arrogant, classless loser, so it really doesn't matter what he really did or what he told everyone--Williams, Schobel, Jennings, their agents, the fans and the media--that he was going to do or that he actually followed through and did exactly what he said he would do---TD has to be wrong, regardless. I'm sorry, but the way I see it, TD dealt with Schobel, Williams and Jennings honestly, straightforwardly and fairly: he gave each one of them the opportunity to be the one player that he felt that the team could afford to re-sign and acted exactly as he said that he was going to during the process. In business, I don't think that you can ask for or expect anything more than that from someone.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Why a dumb comment. While people may not agree with moves TD makes how could you actually say that he is making moves to lose on purpose.

[jamze132]

Why a dumb comment. While people may not agree with moves TD makes how could you actually say that he is making moves to lose on purpose.
Yeah, it's rediculous.

I do believe though that we would have made the playoffs a lot sooner if we had some knowledge under center.

[BuffaloRanger]

So Lifetime, is that how GMs operate? He said in the media that he could probably only sign one. How many times has he put out a smokescreen in the media? "Not interested in Adams anymore." Very Happy with Josh Reed." just to name a few.

But because he gave a supposed ultimatum to 3 players 6 months before their contracts expired that was "letting them know what the deal was."

Funny thing is why didn't the media and fans catch it? Why didn't PW and JJ? Why did the media report like there was a chance they could be re-signed if they knew that was impossible? Why were fans debating on these boards whether to re-sign them or not? Shouldn't they all have known?

Ahh, only you knew. We should all be so wise.



TD: "Well, weren't you paying attention before the season when I said we could probably only sign one. I gave you the opportunity."

That's friggin crazy. Whatever happened to negotiating with your players. There's not another GM in the NFL who conducts business that way.

TD is arrogant. He may not be a loser, but when was the last time he was a winner?

And remind me, what did he call all the Bills fans who criticized him over GW? I do remember a few few unsavory names hurled at the fans. That's the man you love Lifetime!

[BuffaloRanger]

Lifetime,
Try to make your point in 5 paragraphs or less - like everyone else is somehow able to pull off.

[Ingtar33]

Edwards will be fine as PW's replacement.

My analysis of him has remained the same since his rookie year... give him 3 or 4 years to mature, and add some size, and he'll be a serviceable to dominant DT in this league. Last year we saw some signs of it in relief for PW, and I’d be willing to say, he was likely ready to start then.

We likely won't miss big pat.

[mayotm]

I love how you--as a Donohoe hater--have chosen to ignore the facts that don't support your argument and only cite those that appear to support your POV.

FYI: Before last season--before the end of training camp--TD told everyone in the media, etc. that the Bills felt that they only had enough money to sign ONE of the three main players who would become unrestricted free agents after the season: A.Schobel, J.Jennings and P.Williams. When he made those statement and when he broke off negotiations with all three of these players, TD also told everyone, including the media, that he had told the players and their agents that the ONE player that he would sign would be the one that came to terms with the team FIRST.

How much clearer do you, Williams and Jennings expect Donahoe to have been about his intentions? He told them precisely what he was prepared to do and gave all three players an opportunity to come to terms with the team and be the ONE player re-signed.

A.Schobel came to terms with the Bills before J.Jennings or P.Williams. That made Schobel the ONE player that TD told all three players that he was going to re-sign. Jennings or Williams could have told their agents to make sure that they were that one player, but they did not. Schobel did.

At that point, Williams and Jennings KNEW what the deal was--TD had told everyone what it was before Schobel signed. Once Schobel was re-signed, that was it--TD had already made it clear that he was only going to try to re-sign one player. Once that was done, that was the end of it--TD had already told them what the deal was, so why was there any need for him to sit down with them and repeat it after he had already done that previously? They knew that Schobel had re-signed, everyone knew that Schobel had re-signed. So why do you think that TD owed them another sit-down or a repeat of his explanation of what he was going to do? He told them ahead of time what he was going to do and then he did it. Why is TD at fault for doing that?

You said that TD let Jennings and Williams swing in the air: No, he didn't. They had as much chance to be the ONE player that he said that he would re-sign as Schobel had. And, after Schobel re-signed, TD did not string Jennings or Williams along--he repeatedly told the press that, while he would like to re-sign one or both of them, he did not see how he could get that done. And, all of this was done BEFORE LAST SEASON BEGAN!

Now, supposedly, TD subsequently made an offer to Williams after this season that Pat rejected--considering that TD had said previously said that he only had enough money to re-sign ONE of the three FAs and had already done so, the fact that TD made any offer at all was a courtesy to P.Williams that TD did not have to show him given what he had previously stated that his position was. That P.Williams rejected that offer as insufficient was not Donahoe's fault (because he was not obligated to make any offer at all) at that point, but on Williams. If P.Williams had wanted to continue playing for the Bills he could have re-signed with the Bills before Schobel did or accepted the offer that TD made after he had already made it clear that he didn't know if the team could afford to sign anyone other than that one player. But, even if TD didn't make this subsequent offer, as I said earlier, he was never obligated to do so because he had already told everyone that he was only going to re-sign ONE of the three players and he had already done so--before the beginning of last season. Having done that, there was no obligation on his part to offer the remaining two unsigned players anything at all because they already had been told what the deal was!

You compared what TD did to breaking up with a girl without calling her any more. That is a spurious analogy. In my view it is much more like going out with three different girls who know each other and saying to them that you can only afford the time, money and effort to go out with one of them and you will pick the one who does "X" for you first. If all three are given some time to do "X" for you and one of them does "X" while the other two don't and everyone knows that the one girl did "X" for you, why do you have to call or sit down with the two who didn't do "X" and explain to them that you are not going to see them any more because they didn't do "X" for you and the other girl did? They know that already! You already told them that you were only going to continue going out with the girl who did "X" for you first--why do you owe them any further explanation? To "rub it in" that the other girl is willing to do "X" for you and they aren't? They know that already and they know why you are no longer calling because, like TD, you told them what you were going to do right from the git go. That's not hanging them out to dry or leading them on in any way: you told them what the deal was and what the consequences would be. And, TD did the same with Williams, Jennings and Schobel. What more do you want the guy to do?

Oh, but I forgot, you are convinced that TD is an arrogant, classless loser, so it really doesn't matter what he really did or what he told everyone--Williams, Schobel, Jennings, their agents, the fans and the media--that he was going to do or that he actually followed through and did exactly what he said he would do---TD has to be wrong, regardless. I'm sorry, but the way I see it, TD dealt with Schobel, Williams and Jennings honestly, straightforwardly and fairly: he gave each one of them the opportunity to be the one player that he felt that the team could afford to re-sign and acted exactly as he said that he was going to during the process. In business, I don't think that you can ask for or expect anything more than that from someone.
Outstanding post!

[Bert102176]

I kinda agree, but I don't really care for TD that much

[LifetimeBillsFan]

So Lifetime, is that how GMs operate? Yes. If you don't believe me, read some of the books that have been written over the years by former NFL coaches and GMs.


He said in the media that he could probably only sign one. How many times has he put out a smokescreen in the media? "Not interested in Adams anymore." Very Happy with Josh Reed." just to name a few.

But because he gave a supposed ultimatum to 3 players 6 months before their contracts expired that was "letting them know what the deal was." The difference is that the players and their agents confirmed in the media that TD had told them this was the team's position. It was not just TD who was quoted in the media as saying this, but the players: there was an article in either the Buffalo News or the Rochester D and C when TD broke off negotiations with the 3 players last year where P.Williams, himself, was quoted saying that this was what TD had said.


Funny thing is why didn't the media and fans catch it? Why didn't PW and JJ? Why did the media report like there was a chance they could be re-signed if they knew that was impossible? Why were fans debating on these boards whether to re-sign them or not? Shouldn't they all have known?The media did report it: check the BZ archives. There were many articles from various sources that said that the Bills were unlikely to sign P.Williams or J.Jennings, especially after A.Schobel was signed. Where do you think I got this from? Almost every media outlet reported that J.Jennings wanted to test the FA market and that the Bills were likely to lose him because they were unlikely to meet his price. The local WNY media revived the possibility that the Bills might resign P.Williams after P.Williams or his agent indicated that Williams wanted to stay in Buffalo and hinted that he might take less to stay.

As for the fans and messageboards: Is it TD's fault that the fans didn't believe what he said or agree with his decision on resigning only one of the three players? If the fans continued to debate whether the Bills could or should have re-signed JJ or PW, that was their decision and not something that was encouraged by anything that TD said after Schobel signed. In short, it was a lot of wishful thinking on the fans' part, but had nothing to do with the reality of the situation.


Ahh, only you knew. We should all be so wise.No. It didn't require any special prescience on my part. Anyone who read all of the articles posted on the BZ front page on the subject and was willing to consider the possibility that TD actually meant what he was saying--not just in his remarks to the press, but what the players and/or their agents were reporting that he said to them--could have seen the same thing.


TD: "Well, weren't you paying attention before the season when I said we could probably only sign one. I gave you the opportunity."

That's friggin crazy. Whatever happened to negotiating with your players. There's not another GM in the NFL who conducts business that way.In your original post you condemn TD for stringing JJ and PW along and leaving them "swinging in the wind" and now you condemn him for not negotiating with them. Which is it? It seems to me that, as far as you are concerned, TD is wrong no matter what he does. That was the point of my last post and you have only confirmed it.


TD is arrogant....And remind me, what did he call all the Bills fans who criticized him over GW? I do remember a few few unsavory names hurled at the fans. Grow up and get over it. Read Marv Levy's book and see what he has to say about some fans: some of his comments aren't too flattering either. And, they are not alone--lots of GMs and coaches, including very successful ones, have been very critical of their team's fans (and the media). Have you ever listened to a H.Edwards press conference after a loss? Or, heard what Parcells had to say about NY Giant fans booing the draft selection of Phil Simms?


He may not be a loser, but when was the last time he was a winner? Let's see, the last time I looked there were more wins in a 9-7 season than losses and, by definition, that is a winning season--even if it was not a play off season. And, the last time the Bills won a championship was in 1965. Now, you might argue that TD hasn't won a SB in the four years he's been here--well, neither have 30 other teams and their GMs, either.


That's the man you love Lifetime!I find it ironic that that you say that and that I have had to spend so much time defending TD on this messageboard because, frankly, I don't particularly like or dislike him one way or the other. All I try to do is gather as much information as I can about my beloved Bills and what their players and management are doing and analyze it as dispassionately as I can to see if it makes sense and might help to make the team better. I DO NOT agree with everything TD has done as the Bills' GM, but, when I analyze it, I can see how a lot of the things he has done make sense from his perspective, even if a lot of fans (sometimes myself included) don't like those things. When I feel it is appropriate, I try to offer that perspective to discussions here about the team and the moves that the team has made or may make. That does not mean that I "love" TD. Or, that I always agree with him. Or, that I wouldn't do things differently if I were in his shoes in some situations. What it does mean is that I am willing to try to look at what he is doing from his and the team's perspective and not solely my own--which is something that a lot of fans who don't like his personality, who think he's arrogant, who demand immediate gratification in the form of playoff appearances and SB wins, or who simply think that he is no good if he doesn't do what they want him to do or do things their way, are unwilling to do. Now, you may think that means that I "love" TD, but IMHO I think that it only means that I am trying to be fair in my assessment of his performance. I would venture to guess that most people would want a similar degree of fairness in any assessment of their own job performance.

[LifetimeBillsFan]

Lifetime,
Try to make your point in 5 paragraphs or less - like everyone else is somehow able to pull off.Would you like to write the messages that I post for me, too, now?






PS: Is this post short enough for you, Ranger?

[DynaPaul]

I liked Pat Williams and I think he's still a force as a player. Sure, he's coming on the downside but the guy can still clog lanes and make plays. What gets me is how he claims that he doesn't know what the problem is in Buffalo. Well see, that's real simple. You wanted too much money Pat. Sure, you said you were giving a hometown discount and liked playing here but that didn't really show when it came time to talking dollars.

It's a shame. He would have been more of a force here than he will be in Minnesota.

[wchutalkinboutwillis]

I liked Pat Williams and I think he's still a force as a player. Sure, he's coming on the downside but the guy can still clog lanes and make plays. What gets me is how he claims that he doesn't know what the problem is in Buffalo. Well see, that's real simple. You wanted too much money Pat. Sure, you said you were giving a hometown discount and liked playing here but that didn't really show when it came time to talking dollars.

It's a shame. He would have been more of a force here than he will be in Minnesota.
We never gave him a chance to stay. TD never even approached him with an offer. Jennings departure was a no-brainer but I thought Donahoe would make a stronger pitch to keep Pat. The contract he got in Minnesota was very reasonable and I felt the Bills could have gotten him for less. That's why he's bitter. He wanted to stay but the Bills brass did not reciprocate the same feelings. The guy had a business in Buffalo, kids in school, and a genuine desire to stay. It's sad to see him go but I have faith that Edwards (especially) and Anderson will pick up the slack.

[BuffaloRanger]

wchutalkinboutwillis,

You and I are equally inept at following the Bills. If you would have been following the Bills as closely as Lifetimebillsfan you would have realized that in this case, TD was a man of his word. By signing Schobel, that was the clear signal that JJ and PW wouldn't get signed. Lifetime knew it for a fact, although he failed to state it in any of the 30+ threads on the subject back in February.

According to him, TD did make an offer to PW but he turned it down. What the amount of this offer was and how close it was to the one he signed in Minn, only Lifetime knows for sure.

[BuffaloRanger]

"As for the fans and messageboards: Is it TD's fault that the fans didn't believe what he said or agree with his decision on resigning only one of the three players? If the fans continued to debate whether the Bills could or should have re-signed JJ or PW, that was their decision and not something that was encouraged by anything that TD said after Schobel signed. In short, it was a lot of wishful thinking on the fans' part, but had nothing to do with the reality of the situation."

BR: You are officially the smartest Bills fan. Nobody else saw it so clearly.

"No. It didn't require any special prescience on my part. Anyone who read all of the articles posted on the BZ front page on the subject and was willing to consider the possibility that TD actually meant what he was saying--not just in his remarks to the press, but what the players and/or their agents were reporting that he said to them--could have seen the same thing."

BR: Again...you are so smart.

"In your original post you condemn TD for stringing JJ and PW along and leaving them "swinging in the wind" and now you condemn him for not negotiating with them. Which is it? It seems to me that, as far as you are concerned, TD is wrong no matter what he does. That was the point of my last post and you have only confirmed it."

BR: Ah, here's where I lose you. By not negotiating with them, that is to say, not talking to their agents after training camp, he in fact did string them along. Instead of saying "they need to lower their demands" to ESPN, TD should have been talking to the players or agents directly. Or if as you claim TD never intended to sign them, he should have been man enough to tell them "thanks for all you did here, you don't fit in our plans, best of luck to you." But he refused to talk to them. Why is that too much too expect?

"Let's see, the last time I looked there were more wins in a 9-7 season than losses and, by definition, that is a winning season--even if it was not a play off season. And, the last time the Bills won a championship was in 1965. Now, you might argue that TD hasn't won a SB in the four years he's been here--well, neither have 30 other teams and their GMs, either."

BR: No I'll argue that 25 other teams have at least been to the playoffs in the last 4 years. (You had to see that coming, right) Winning the AFC East Division, and/or AFC Conference Championships could make you a winner - or at least look good on a T-Shirt.



BR: Do you really think 9-7 is something to be proud of? Is that a job well done?

[LifetimeBillsFan]

wchutalkinboutwillis,

You and I are equally inept at following the Bills. If you would have been following the Bills as closely as Lifetimebillsfan you would have realized that in this case, TD was a man of his word. By signing Schobel, that was the clear signal that JJ and PW wouldn't get signed. Lifetime knew it for a fact, although he failed to state it in any of the 30+ threads on the subject back in February.

According to him, TD did make an offer to PW but he turned it down. What the amount of this offer was and how close it was to the one he signed in Minn, only Lifetime knows for sure.
Ranger: Here's a list of URLs to just some of the articles from the BZ archives that mention that the Bills might not or would not be willing or able to re-sign JJ and/or PW:
http://www.rochesterdandc.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20040909/SPORTS03/409090323/1021

http://www.buffalobills.com/news/news.jsp?news_id=2721

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?id=1877220

http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/teams/report/BUF/7637846

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=13708782&BRD=386&PAG=461&dept_id=444921&rfi=6

http://msn.foxsports.com/story/3309744

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/3425856

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2005/football/nfl/02/24/bc.fbn.bills.freeagents.ap/index.html

http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/teams/report/BUF/8237410

There were more articles that discussed the probability/likelihood that the Bills would not re-sign JJ and/or PW--particularly last summer immediately after TD broke off negotiations with them and Schobel--but the BZ archives only go back to the end of last July and some of the subsequent article, especially those that appeared in the Buffalo News, are in archives that one must pay to access at this point.

In case you are not inclined to spend your time reading them, here is a quote from a SI.CNN.com article that just might have given you a clue that the Bills did not believe that they could afford to re-sign JJ or PW or that doing so would be cost-effective--enough of a clue for you not to be surprised when they did not resign those two players:


"The Buffalo Bills (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/teams/bills) are prepared to let starters Jonas Jennings (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/players/5543) and Pat Williams (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/players/4117) become free agents next week unless they lower their contract demands.

"We'd like to get both back if we can, but it may not be cost effective," Bills president Tom Donahoe said at the NFL combine in Indianapolis Thursday.

Donahoe went further in an interview with Buffalo's WIVB-TV later in the day, saying: "I think both those players right now are of the opinion that they can get more on the open market than we would be willing to pay them. And they're certainly entitled to explore that."
It doesn't take a mind-reader or a genius or even someone who has been around the block that many times to figure out that when a businessman says that something "may not be cost effective", he really isn't interested in making a deal for it unless he can get it for far below market rate--which is essentially what TD said when he told everyone that he could only afford to sign one of the three players before TC last season. And, you know, when a person says the same thing often enough, you really have to take into consideration the possibility that he actually means what he is saying.....
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[mysticsoto]

wchutalkinboutwillis,

You and I are equally inept at following the Bills. If you would have been following the Bills as closely as Lifetimebillsfan you would have realized that in this case, TD was a man of his word. By signing Schobel, that was the clear signal that JJ and PW wouldn't get signed. Lifetime knew it for a fact, although he failed to state it in any of the 30+ threads on the subject back in February.

According to him, TD did make an offer to PW but he turned it down. What the amount of this offer was and how close it was to the one he signed in Minn, only Lifetime knows for sure.
Not true. I remember the offer being talked about here - especially after PW signed with Minnesota. And I remember that the offer wasn't too bad either. Perhaps you weren't paying attention when it was discussed. In the end, most people on that thread agreed that PW was given a chance to stay, but instead chose money - despite him saying there would be a home town discount. In the end, he most likely let his agent influence him too much and didn't go with his heart - which is why he's a little disgruntled now.

BTW, LifetimeBillsFan, post as long a post as you want in order to make your point. I enjoy reading them and anyone who doesn't want to read them doesn't have to...

[wchutalkinboutwillis]

Not true. I remember the offer being talked about here - especially after PW signed with Minnesota. And I remember that the offer wasn't too bad either. Perhaps you weren't paying attention when it was discussed. In the end, most people on that thread agreed that PW was given a chance to stay, but instead chose money - despite him saying there would be a home town discount. In the end, he most likely let his agent influence him too much and didn't go with his heart - which is why he's a little disgruntled now.

BTW, LifetimeBillsFan, post as long a post as you want in order to make your point. I enjoy reading them and anyone who doesn't want to read them doesn't have to...
There has been a lot of talk about Jennings and Williams. Throughout all of last season and most of pre-free agency offseason, I think it's safe to say that most fans thought the Bills would keep at least one of these players. I would also bet that most fans would have picked that player to be P Williams.
Much of what's being said is based on pure speculation.
At the end of the day, the Bills did not make Pat Williams an offer. There was money to sign Holcombe, Gandy, Anderson, & Lee, but not enough could be scraped together for a cornerstone of the Defense. Are you telling me the Bills would have offered so much lower than the Vikes? BuffaloRanger, you're suggesting the Bills made Pat an offer? This is news to me. I'd be curious to know what the terms where.
If he performs at 80% of what he did last season, he'll be the steal of free-agency for Minnesota. TD could have found the money to pay him if he really wanted him. Signing a back-up QB at 600k per year as opposed to 1.8mm probably would've put the Bills in that position. But Williams was gone before we signed Holcombe. Wasn't he? So was TD's mind already made up by then? I think it was his choice not to make an offer.
The Bills D should will still be very good and I've stated before that Edwards and Anderson SHOULD be able to fill the void. However, PW's departure leaves the biggest uknown on that side of the ball which is why we're having this talk.