If franchise location is such a good idea...

[OpIv37]

why do most of the cities that lose a team end up getting a team back? St. Louis, Baltimore, Cleveland and Houston come immediately to mind. I think the NFL does a poor job of assessing the strength of their current markets. If untapped markets exist, expansion or regional promotion of teams should be considered instead of relocation.

And for the record- LA had two teams and couldn't support either one. They don't deserve an NFL franchise.

[Mudflap1]

why do most of the cities that lose a team end up getting a team back? St. Louis, Baltimore, Cleveland and Houston come immediately to mind. I think the NFL does a poor job of assessing the strength of their current markets. If untapped markets exist, expansion or regional promotion of teams should be considered instead of relocation.

And for the record- LA had two teams and couldn't support either one. They don't deserve an NFL franchise.Aren't you contradicting yourself? St. Louis, Baltimore, Cleveland, and Houston deserve teams because they can support them based upon their markets, but Los Angeles, the 2nd largest city in the U.S. does not?

I happen to live in Los Angeles. I am a Bills fan, not a Raiders or Rams fan. However, there's something to be said for not wanting to drive an hour or hour and a half each way to go see a crappy team in a crappy stadium in a very dangerous area of town (Raiders -- Coliseum), or drive to Anaheim (another run down area at the time -- has since had a rebirth) with another run down stadium (again, has since been seriously renovated).

If you could sit out on your deck, watch the game on television, and be across the street from the ocean with sunny and 75 degree weather everyday, you wouldn't be in a big hurry to go see those games either.

You gotta understand something about Los Angeles, it's not that the fans are bad, USC and UCLA pack their games usually, it's that the city is so spread out it takes a long time to get to the games. Factor in traffic, bad areas, and yes, bad teams, and that's why there was a loss of interest. The Angels draw great, so do the Dodgers. Sure, they're both good, but the Dodgers draw well even when they're bad. So do the Lakers. It's all about the marketing. If you have a nice venue, do some nice promotion, and it's a nice area/accessible area, there will be support. But if you don't, there are too many things to do out here, and people will lose interest and do something else, or at least stay at home and watch the game.

In addition, those other cities (including Los Angeles) lost their teams for business reasons. Oakland offered more money to bring back the Raiders. Can you seriously argue that Al Davis is NOT a bastard of some sorts? And Georgia Frontiere? Please. She isn't going to win owner of the year anytime soon. Bill Bidwell with the St. Louis Cardinals? Robert Irsay with the Baltimore Colts? None of these guys are all-star owners. It's more than just fan participation. Lots of times you have to look at the owners, and what motives and business deals they have on the table.

Jon

[The_Philster]

Technically, both the teams that were in LA were stolen from other cities in the first place :peace:

[OpIv37]

Actually, I wasn't contradicting myself at all. You just said the fan base is there in LA, but the stadiums were difficult and unsafe and the teams sucked. Well, wouldn't it have made more sense and cost less money for the NFL to renovate the stadiums and find ways to make them more accessible than to move across the state/country and alienate fans? Wouldn't it have been better to market the LA Raiders to Oakland rather than making them the Oakland Raiders? By relocating, the NFL took themselves out of the second largest market in the country. Now, the only ways to get back in are to water down the league through expansion or alienate more fans by moving a team to LA.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Aren't you contradicting yourself? St. Louis, Baltimore, Cleveland, and Houston deserve teams because they can support them based upon their markets, but Los Angeles, the 2nd largest city in the U.S. does not?

I happen to live in Los Angeles. I am a Bills fan, not a Raiders or Rams fan. However, there's something to be said for not wanting to drive an hour or hour and a half each way to go see a crappy team in a crappy stadium in a very dangerous area of town (Raiders -- Coliseum), or drive to Anaheim (another run down area at the time -- has since had a rebirth) with another run down stadium (again, has since been seriously renovated).

If you could sit out on your deck, watch the game on television, and be across the street from the ocean with sunny and 75 degree weather everyday, you wouldn't be in a big hurry to go see those games either.

You gotta understand something about Los Angeles, it's not that the fans are bad, USC and UCLA pack their games usually, it's that the city is so spread out it takes a long time to get to the games. Factor in traffic, bad areas, and yes, bad teams, and that's why there was a loss of interest. The Angels draw great, so do the Dodgers. Sure, they're both good, but the Dodgers draw well even when they're bad. So do the Lakers. It's all about the marketing. If you have a nice venue, do some nice promotion, and it's a nice area/accessible area, there will be support. But if you don't, there are too many things to do out here, and people will lose interest and do something else, or at least stay at home and watch the game.

In addition, those other cities (including Los Angeles) lost their teams for business reasons. Oakland offered more money to bring back the Raiders. Can you seriously argue that Al Davis is NOT a bastard of some sorts? And Georgia Frontiere? Please. She isn't going to win owner of the year anytime soon. Bill Bidwell with the St. Louis Cardinals? Robert Irsay with the Baltimore Colts? None of these guys are all-star owners. It's more than just fan participation. Lots of times you have to look at the owners, and what motives and business deals they have on the table.

Jon

**** LOS ANGELES!!!!!

[Mudflap1]

Actually, I wasn't contradicting myself at all. You just said the fan base is there in LA, but the stadiums were difficult and unsafe and the teams sucked. Well, wouldn't it have made more sense and cost less money for the NFL to renovate the stadiums and find ways to make them more accessible than to move across the state/country and alienate fans? Wouldn't it have been better to market the LA Raiders to Oakland rather than making them the Oakland Raiders? By relocating, the NFL took themselves out of the second largest market in the country. Now, the only ways to get back in are to water down the league through expansion or alienate more fans by moving a team to LA.If you're trying to basically blame the NFL for screwing things up, then I agree with you...

In addition, I'm not politicking for L.A. to get a team, especially at the expense of taking one away from another city. If the NFL one day feels the need to expand, then yes, Los Angeles should be the first city to get a team, granted that the stadium/location issue is resolved.


**** LOS ANGELES!!!!!
To say **** Los Angeles is very hateful and, frankly, ignorant. There are a lot of football fans out here. There are a lot of people that are transplants from other parts of the country that would embrace a team. To just typecast 20 million people as a bunch of hippie/surfer/plastic/whatevers is pretty ridiculous.

Jon

[jamze132]

I think the fan from the small city who pays to see his favorite team play whether they win or lose or it's sunny or raining is the best fan that an owner could ask for.

[gr8slayer]

**** LOS ANGELES!!!!!Amen! :posrep:

[Jan Reimers]

Teams should be in markets that support them. Small market teams like Green Bay, Buffalo, Cincy, and Kansas City should be left in place, since they have good fan support.

If the NFL wants a franchise in LA, it should look at moving Arizona, which doesn't draw flies; Atlanta, which draws only when the team wins; or New Orleans, where the owner threatens to leave every 5 minutes.

[LVGrown]

**** LOS ANGELES!!!!!


Amen! :posrep:


just wondering if ya'll have ever even been to LA? for longer then a week? i personally could care less if the Bills left buffalo because of people like you. I would follow the Bills wherever they went, heres praying for Vegas! People have the nerve to bad mouth LA and then praise NY? Gimme a break, talk about a great group of people!

Erin

[L.A. Playa]

Los Angeles to me is the best city in the US. Culturally diverse, always something to do, plenty of jobs, GREAT WEATHER, and people in these other cities,such as Buffalo should be thanking Los Angeles for not stealing a team froma smaller market. The people who want to bring the NFL back to LA are working with the NFL and not against it. With what I believe will be the LA Coliseum renovation anda new Stadium in Anaheim built Southern California will have 2 NFL franchisesby 2015. So save your little insults on a real city for yourself just because you really hate the little crap town you live in

[OpIv37]

I can't speak for everyone else, but all I was saying was that LA doesn't know how to keep a football franchise. I've got nothing against the city itself- I've been out there before and I enjoyed it. I don't think I'd like to live out there because there's something different about the people that I just can't quite put my finger on, but it was definitely fun to visit and I plan on going back at some point.

[L.A. Playa]

I can't speak for everyone else, but all I was saying was that LA doesn't know how to keep a football franchise. I've got nothing against the city itself- I've been out there before and I enjoyed it. I don't think I'd like to live out there because there's something different about the people that I just can't quite put my finger on, but it was definitely fun to visit and I plan on going back at some point.

Do you really know the history of how Los Angeles lost its teams?? Al Davis
stole the money from a city out her and ran to Oakland after he already had the money in hand he is a crook. And good old Georgia, she is a money hungry idiot. Los Angeles lost teams because of 2 idiot owners not because of fans or lack of fan support and the government out here wisely did not bow down to these idiots. Imagine if Ralph gotpaid $10 Mil to build a new downtown stadium then changed his mind took the money and moved the team to Detroit to be closer to home and got paidfor doing that as well. Thats what scumbag Davis did. So please dont say LA LOST franchises they where THANKFULLY gone by 2 idiot owners

[L.A. Playa]

by the way if ya want to know the character of good old Georgia watch the movie Heaven Can Wait its about her greedy butt

[Bulldog]

So save your little insults on a real city for yourself just because you really hate the little crap town you live in

Different strokes for different folks. Some people may like living in a big city like LA or NYC. Some people prefer to live in or around smaller cities like Buffalo or Rochester. It's all about preference. It all depends on what you're looking for. So while you say Buffalo is crap, it may be perfect for somebody else. Just as others have said LA sucks, it obviously works for you.

[Bulldog]

Culturally diverse, always something to do, plenty of jobs, GREAT WEATHER, and people in these other cities,such as Buffalo should be thanking Los Angeles for not stealing a team froma smaller market.

Hate to burst your bubble, but the Bills will never move as long as Ralph is around. After he's gone, all bets are off. But until then, I don't think Buffalo needs to bow down and thank the almighty city of LA for anything.

[L.A. Playa]

Hate to burst your bubble, but the Bills will never move as long as Ralph is around. After he's gone, all bets are off. But until then, I don't think Buffalo needs to bow down and thank the almighty city of LA for anything.

I never insinuated or said I hope the Bills move, to me I hope Buffalo always keeps their team if the Bills left Buffalo the city would be deystroyed and I wouldn't want to see that happen to anyplace. And as far as some people like living in Buffalo congrats I am glad that you found a place that suits your needs and comfort but dont go and insult someone elses City and choice of place to live. I believe LA deserves a team and would rather see expansion come here than take a team from another city but it is all in the almighty NFL hands and they will decide what happens.

[Michael82]

With what I believe will be the LA Coliseum renovation anda new Stadium in Anaheim built Southern California will have 2 NFL franchisesby 2015.

Want a bet? There's no way that the NFL will dry out the market that fast. There won't be 2 NFL teams in the LA area, because the NFL is looking to move into other cities, states and countries too...they won't take 2 teams and put them into the LA/Southern Cal market, unless one of them is the 49ers, or Chargers. It would be insane to have 5 NFL teams in the California. Especially when there is other areas looking too.

[The_Philster]

If anyone should move to LA, it should be the Chargers, IMO. They started in LA in 1960

[Michael82]

If anyone should move to LA, it should be the Chargers, IMO. They started in LA in 1960
:bf1:

[Mudflap1]

The Chargers seem to be doing fine down in San Diego. If L.A. gets a team, I would want to see an expansion team (although I don't want the NFL to further dilute and expand at this time either).

Jon

[wchutalkinboutwillis]

Los Angeles to me is the best city in the US. Culturally diverse, always something to do, plenty of jobs, GREAT WEATHER, and people in these other cities,such as Buffalo should be thanking Los Angeles for not stealing a team froma smaller market. The people who want to bring the NFL back to LA are working with the NFL and not against it. With what I believe will be the LA Coliseum renovation anda new Stadium in Anaheim built Southern California will have 2 NFL franchisesby 2015. So save your little insults on a real city for yourself just because you really hate the little crap town you live in
If LA could have "stolen" an NFL franchise, they would have done so a long time ago. Tagliabue supports LA getting a team. Hell, I would say that most Bills fans support LA getting a team. It's good for the league. As long as it's not at the expense of a small market team, or should I say, half the NFL. Teams that are not contributing should be the ones to consider, Arizona, New Orleans, etc. If not relocation, then at some point, expansion. The problem with expansion is that Conference and Divisional balance do not make it a logical choice at this time. BTW, while football in LA would be good, the place is a hell hole and everyone outside of LA knows it. That's why we all bypass it when we visiit the West Coast. San Fran, Napa Valley, San Diego, Seatlle, Portland. They all have one thing in common: They're more desirable than LA.

[L.A. Playa]

:lmao:
If LA could have "stolen" an NFL franchise, they would have done so a long time ago. Tagliabue supports LA getting a team. Hell, I would say that most Bills fans support LA getting a team. It's good for the league. As long as it's not at the expense of a small market team, or should I say, half the NFL. Teams that are not contributing should be the ones to consider, Arizona, New Orleans, etc. If not relocation, then at some point, expansion. The problem with expansion is that Conference and Divisional balance do not make it a logical choice at this time. BTW, while football in LA would be good, the place is a hell hole and everyone outside of LA knows it. That's why we all bypass it when we visiit the West Coast. San Fran, Napa Valley, San Diego, Seatlle, Portland. They all have one thing in common: They're more desirable than LA.

LA a Hell hole :lmao: and if LA really wanted a team they could have PAID for it we arent bending over for some greedy owner like Baltimore or Houston The NFL will need LA not LA need the NFL once again laughing my butt off at LA being a hell hole we do have the most gorgeous women in the US

[gr8slayer]

:lmao:

LA a Hell hole :lmao: and if LA really wanted a team they could have PAID for it we arent bending over for some greedy owner like Baltimore or Houston The NFL will need LA not LA need the NFL once again laughing my butt off at LA being a hell hole we do have the most gorgeous women in the US
Our cowgirls here in Texas will kick your surfer girls asses.

[LVGrown]

Our cowgirls here in Texas will kick your surfer girls asses.

LOL, now thats funny!

[wchutalkinboutwillis]

:lmao:

LA a Hell hole :lmao: and if LA really wanted a team they could have PAID for it we arent bending over for some greedy owner like Baltimore or Houston The NFL will need LA not LA need the NFL once again laughing my butt off at LA being a hell hole we do have the most gorgeous women in the US
Yeah, if skanky women made of plastic and strung out on dope is your thing. :lmao:

[EDS]

If LA could have "stolen" an NFL franchise, they would have done so a long time ago. Tagliabue supports LA getting a team. Hell, I would say that most Bills fans support LA getting a team. It's good for the league. As long as it's not at the expense of a small market team, or should I say, half the NFL. Teams that are not contributing should be the ones to consider, Arizona, New Orleans, etc. If not relocation, then at some point, expansion. The problem with expansion is that Conference and Divisional balance do not make it a logical choice at this time. BTW, while football in LA would be good, the place is a hell hole and everyone outside of LA knows it. That's why we all bypass it when we visiit the West Coast. San Fran, Napa Valley, San Diego, Seatlle, Portland. They all have one thing in common: They're more desirable than LA.


I don't think anyone who lives in New Jersey can make fun of anyone else's town, city, state or country.

[Michael82]

I don't think anyone who lives in New Jersey can make fun of anyone else's town, city, state or country.
:roflmao:

[wchutalkinboutwillis]

I don't think anyone who lives in New Jersey can make fun of anyone else's town, city, state or country.
Easy now. I lived in NYC for 6 years. 88th & 3rd in Manhattan to be exact (right down the street from Brother Jimmy's). It just got to the point that $1350 per month for a 250 sq ft appt. was enough. Get married, get a dog, have a kid or two, and guess what: You'll be calling the Garden State home as well.

[BuffaloRanger]

I can't speak for everyone else, but all I was saying was that LA doesn't know how to keep a football franchise. I've got nothing against the city itself- I've been out there before and I enjoyed it. I don't think I'd like to live out there because there's something different about the people that I just can't quite put my finger on, but it was definitely fun to visit and I plan on going back at some point.


I don't hate LA. It is a cool place. But the most annoying thing is exactly the thing you can't put your finger on. Too many "FAKE" people. I didn't understand what that meant until I actually saw it in action. Transplants that grew up in Michigan, After living there only 2 months already show the fakeness.

It's like you never really meet people - you meet who they want/hope to be. They may be a bus driver for hollywood tours but they'll tell you they run the company. Everyone is trying to seem more important than they really are. So many chicks are aspiring actresses or models - it's funny, because I thought that was just a stereotype.

Why does LA deserve a team anyway? It is true there is alot to do in the area. Because of that there will never be alot of hardcore fans, mostly just casual fans. Casual fans think it's such a burden to drive a whole hour to attend a football game. Tough to keep a franchise like that running after the novelty wears off.

[Mudflap1]

Uhhhhh..... people really need to get their stories straight and stop thinking that Santa Monica to Hollywood is all of "L.A." There's a lot more to this area than that. Yes, I agree, Hollywood, West Hollywood, etc. has a lot of people trying to 'make it' in film and music, and when you go to Lakers games or something, you get a bit of a Hollywood crowd. Last time I checked New York has the same problem. Go to Pasadena though. Go to Santa Barbara, go to Orange County (not Balboa Peninsula in Newport Beach for all the wannabes that watch "The O.C."), Huntington Beach, Dana Point, Laguna Beach, Big Bear, etc. This is one of the finest areas to live in the world. It's sunny and 75 out right now (as usual).

As for L.A. 'deserving' a team, that's up to the NFL. Again, I think done correctly, an expansion team could thrive here. We can't have another jackass owner who is just in it to screw anybody over they please for their own bottom line. There also needs to be a good location/stadium situation.

But I agree, not at the expense of a smaller market franchise whose fans support their team.

Arizona is probably the most likely.

By the way, I'm from Philly (family originally hails from Buffalo), and I've spent many a summer in New Jersey. You got no room to talk Holmes...

Jon

[pleasesavedrew]

When 2 teams walk out on your city, it says something about the interest in the sport. Stick with usc and we'll stick with the bills. Most of the cities you mentioned lost there temas over stadum disagreements with the city, fan support usually wasnt a factor.

[Mudflap1]

When 2 teams walk out on your city, it says something about the interest in the sport. Stick with usc and we'll stick with the bills. Most of the cities you mentioned lost there temas over stadum disagreements with the city, fan support usually wasnt a factor.
True, I agree it says something. However, the teams that were here were pretty bad for several consecutive years. For all of the complaining some of us (including me) do about the Bills sometimes, we are actually fortunate for one thing, and that is that for the last twenty years or so, there haven't really been any consecutive REALLY bad years of 6-10 or worse. The Bills were 3-13 a few years ago, then better (8-8), then worse again (6-10), then better (9-7). It wasn't 3-13, 6-10, 6-10, and 5-11 or whatever. And from my recollection, the Rams WERE that bad for the last several years they were in L.A. That's to say, fans should support their team and not let them leave, but it's easy to lose SOME interest, then factor in a maniacal owner, and it's no wonder why the Rams left.

Al Davis is a toad. It's hard to argue that. He left Oakland, who has a great (albeit seedy) fanbase for L.A., then went back again, stole money, had lawsuits, et al.

In another situation, the Browns had a great fanbase, and their owner still moved the team. That was the ultimate example of accosting in my opinion.

The Bills should not be moved, and should never be moved in my opinion. However, if some people are sweating as it stands today about the possibility of the Bills moving, how much sweating would be going on if the Bills have consecutive seasons of being really, really bad, such as the Rams had in the 90s? How much would ticket sales fall? Probably a lot.

My point is, yes, you are correct, two teams left L.A., and that says something. However, if similar circumstances fell in, say, the city of Buffalo with our beloved Bills, similar problems might arise.

Jon