bye bye sabres? [Archive] - BillsZone.com

HenryRules

12-23-2002, 10:48 AM

Hold on before you call me a bumbling idiot or stupid.

Personally, I think anyone who values spending tax-money on sports teams should have their intelligence questioned before anyone who doesn't.

I completely disagreed with the Bills getting any aid whatsoever.

The reason giving these teams money is foolish is because it only rents the team for a few more years. There is only one way to guarantee that a team will be in the city for a long time and that is to build a thriving business community within the city. Until the citizens/businesses of a community can support a team without taxpayer help, the teams will always have to go back to the city every few years for more aid - there's too many examples in hockey to start listing. Do I think that it would be a good idea to spend a few million dollars on the Sabres, then come 2006, they leave the city? No. Why does that make me an idiot? I'm also a Blue Jays fan and was completely against the building of the Skydome. Does Toronto regret doing that now? You bet your ass it does. Think Detroit is happy they built their stadium for the Tigers? I doubt it. Giving money to sports team is one of the stupidest ways that a city can possibly spend its money. Is Buffalo better for having used taxpayer money to keep the Bills? I don't think so.

THATHURMANATOR

12-24-2002, 01:10 PM

Dude who cares if they give the sabres 15 or 20 million dollars??? Will it really effect you negatively in any way??? We would have a brand new stadium sitting there that we are still paying for BTW that will serve basically no purpose. Hamister was on the radio yesterday and he was very straight forward about what the money was for and how it would be used to help turn the team into a profitable franchise. Not having the Sabres would give us one less thing to do in a town that doesn't have millions of options..

HenryRules

12-25-2002, 05:49 PM

15 to 20 million dollars if it was a one-time thing would not be a big deal. But notice the justification used by Buffarama: "your beloved Bills got state aid." Do you honestly believe that 15-20 mil now will keep the Sabres forever? Or do you think that it will be 15-20 mil now ... another 5-10 in 2006 (where the NHL would say that because they changed the cba, now cities should chip in and do their fair share), then after the Sabres get their help, the Bills come and ask for another 30 mil minimum around 2008 once Ralph Wilson dies to keep the team in the city since his heirs have no money, so then all of a sudden, a city that definitely does not have a thriving business community or tax base has decided to spend about 50 mil minimum over 8 years or so in order to keep its sport teams. Yes, I do think that is quite a difference and problem ... and if you disagree, well, there's a saying that citizens getting the politicians they deserve.

Buffarama

12-26-2002, 07:08 AM

I'm still waiting for an answer as to why someone would come into a Sabres forum and push for the city not to support them.
Since you are a self appointed guru (notice I didn't use the idiot word) of politics in Buffalo, just what is your plan to keep them here? Refuse to buy tickets for an inferior product and block any state assistance?
If so, you mirror many other people in Buffalo, which is why the team is in the state it is now in the first place.
When you're finished here, you should go into the Bills forum and investigate I think it is to the tune of 23 million A YEAR that Ralph got from the state.
When you're finished there, you could go on tour, and maybe turn the whole nation around from publically supported sports franchises. If I'm not mistaken, the Sabres are the only NHL team that has to support it's own arena.
My wish it that you and others like you would begin your work in another city.
Sports is an easy target to cry foul politics with. The city of Buffalo can't even build a bridge or spend money already given to it to improve it's waterfront. Just what do Buffalo leaders do all day? Your time might be better spent finding out why Buffalo has become one of the most wasted underdeveloped natural resources in the USA.
It certainly isn't cause the Sabres need an arena. In fact, the Sabres are one of the few things the city has, and the city doesn't even want to take care of them!
Your local politicians it seems can't be bothered with anything.

TonyBuffalo

12-26-2002, 09:17 AM

THey gotta go. IF they can't support themselves through ticket sales the story is over. I do no mind hockey at all, but i will not take any of my hard earn dollars and support them. They don't lend themselves to tourism, if we were going to waste the money i would rather see it go to the zoo, or community centers.

Only public money that should go to the sabres should be the ticket sales. THat's the public that wants them, they should support them. I did not like and also *****ed about the Bills getting $127,000,000 over like 9 years or so.

Yes there's a quality of life factor but the amount of people that don't care about sports outweight the ones that do.

Yippie we have a new arena, big deal. It doesn't contribute to my business or a host of others. If the goverment could show a direct boost to the economy from having sports teams, I'd be all for it. But they can't. THere really wasn't anyhting wrong with the old aud. THe team could suck or be great in the old aud. That there would of saved mllions alone.

If the economy was great in WNY and we weren't the already highest taxed state to begin with, then i could see perhaps supporting a team. But you know what, we JUST can't afford it. Period, call me a hard ass, or a cheap bastard, but all in all, there are too many people that can't even afford to go.

The goverment was ment to protect us, not play business buddies with our tax money.

Earthquake Enyart

12-26-2002, 09:18 AM

Get coal in your stocking Tony?

Ya nerd.... :)

Buffarama

12-26-2002, 09:43 AM

Think small be small Tony :)

I am yet to tune into the zoo channel 3 nights a week during the winter to watch the animals play, or drive to the zoo in January. Not exactly what I call entertainment. People usually don't visit the restaurants and bars before a zoo visit and talk zoo before going, then call in the radio shows afterwords and complain about the zoo keepers.
I am yet to find a Buffalo zoo chatroom, though I'm sure someone will provide a link once I mention it. There is no zoo forum here.
National TV never visited Buffalo live in April, May, or June except for one reason, and one reason only, NHL HOCKEY.
Professional sports franchises do add to business, identity and quality of life issues.
As much as I hate to say it, tax money is being thrown away anyways, you might as well get something you like out of it, cause you're never going to see it otherwise.
And I'm all for zoo improvements too BTW, cause I was very disappointed in the Buffalo zoo when I went.

Earthquake Enyart

12-26-2002, 09:47 AM

The Philharmonic has a great chat room. Big argument about second tuba that is facinating.

HenryRules

12-26-2002, 10:44 AM

Buffarama ... am I correct in assuming that you have already mailed your check to the Sabres to help them along their way in getting the money they desire? Or are you only interested in helping the Sabres if everyone else is forced to help them? Its quite easy to spend other people's money isn't it?
As far as the Sabres helping out the bars/restaurants so much ... well then why aren't the bars and restaurants willing to chip in together and give the team the money it requires. Sounds like you've already investigated that it would be a sound financial investment for them, why haven't the checks already been written?
Personally, I only watch the Sabres live a couple of nights out of the year and it wouldn't really change much if they were in town or not (if I wanted to still watch them 40+ times or so on tv, I could and if I wanted to see them live twice a year, I could drive to Toronto) ... my quality of life, identity, and business are not affected at all by the Sabres and if public money is given to them as opposed to tax breaks for all businesses, then actually, I'd say that supporting the Sabres decreases my quality of life (by not being able to reward my loved one's with a great meal at a restaurant during the holidays as I normally like to do because my taxes will have increased) and my business (which really has absolutely nothing at all to do with the Sabres).

THATHURMANATOR

12-26-2002, 10:51 AM

How much money would actually be coming out of each and anyones pockets. My guess is a very small amount that you wouldn't even know was gone. I am all for it!!!

HenryRules

12-26-2002, 10:51 AM

Originally posted by Buffarama
I'm still waiting for an answer as to why someone would come into a Sabres forum and push for the city not to support them.

Perhaps its because this is a topic of discussion quite relevant to Sabres fans (watching a couple of games a year live and perhaps around half the televised games should place me in the fan category) and a discussion that was already started on the board.

Or perhaps its because if I went to a Buffalo Theatre discussion group and discussed the merits of giving money to the Sabres, they might wonder about the viking opera that was coming to town as opposed to thinking of the local hockey team.

Or perhaps its because there seem to be other people who have agreed with me and this discussion has actually brought forward some interesting (to some) opinions on this subject?

Or perhaps it was an opportunity to me to search out an opinion that could justify to me why I should give money to support my team? Maybe I disagreed with the handout beforehand for ideological reasons but was hoping that an enlightened soul could provide a backdoor for me to get around my beliefs so that I could support my team? Unfortunately, no such luck so far.

HenryRules

12-26-2002, 10:51 AM

Originally posted by THATHURMANATOR
How much money would actually be coming out of each and anyones pockets. My guess is a very small amount that you wouldn't even know was gone. I am all for it!!!

Have you already written the check for your portion then?

The_Philster

12-26-2002, 03:16 PM

Originally posted by Earthquake Enyart
The Philharmonic has a great chat room. Big argument about second tuba that is facinating.

:lol:

THATHURMANATOR

12-26-2002, 03:22 PM

No I haven't written a check, but I don't care if they take a little something out of my pay(taxes) to keep the team here.

Buffarama

12-26-2002, 03:34 PM

Henry, we're not talking about out of pocket expendentures at the moment between yourself and I.
The topic is that you are against any tax dollars going to professional sports franchises, when our football team gets much more than the Sabres need, and every other NHL team does not pay for their own arena.
Also Henry, do you realize that the city will pay for the arena full or empty? You must not be aware of this.
But you want to single out the Sabres and Sabre hockey fans as your sacrificial soap box lamb. And you want to do it in a forum where fans come to talk about the Sabres, which forum BTW, won't exist if the Sabres don't. Then you'll have to scroll down to the Destroyers forum.
So unless you have an alternate plan you can come up with in the next few weeks, what do you expect to hear in here? I'd like to hear of a better plan, other than, oh well, no hockey team, let em go.
I don't back the local museums, but I won't go and picket in front of them because I don't want them to receive any gov't money, cause I realize other people like them.

HenryRules

12-26-2002, 04:17 PM

Henry, we're not talking about out of pocket expendentures at the moment between yourself and I.

Buffarama - do you not understand that it is our tax money that pays for government expenditures - meaning that government expenditures boil down to being <b>out of pocket expenditures</b>? If you think differently, then please tell me where the government's money comes from.

The topic is that you are against any tax dollars going to professional sports franchises, when our football team gets much more than the Sabres need, and every other NHL team does not pay for their own arena.
not really sure where you're going with this statement ... the first half seems entirely unrelated to the second half. The topic of spending money on sports teams or not spending money on sports teams is unrelated to the ratio of football team money vs. hockey team money or the ownership situations of various arenas.
As to the part of your statement about every other NHL team not paying for its arena ... three that come to the top of my mind are Vancouver's GM Place, the ACC in Toronto, and the Molson Centre in Montreal - cities that are closer to Buffalo in the economic spectrum than to New York or Los Angeles (well, aside from Toronto that is). In fact, I think, but am not sure, that almost all Canadian cities do not support their hockey teams. And contrary to popular opinion, it is not because of this fact that hockey team's want to leave Canadian cities, its due to the failing businesses/dollar in most of their cities (i.e. Ottawa and the near-death experiences of Corel).

Also Henry, do you realize that the city will pay for the arena full or empty? You must not be aware of this.
Yes I am aware of this ... are you aware of the fact that it is not a good idea to throw good money after bad? Many, many corporations have suffered grave losses due to the logic which states that: "Well, we already spent X dollars on this project, so in order to not have that go completely to waste, we might as well spend Y more dollars". Money that's been spent has been spent ... future spending should be based on future needs, not past needs.
You also seem to forget that when the city built the arena, it was thought that building the arena would keep the team in the city ... funny didn't seem to work that way did it.

So unless you have an alternate plan you can come up with in the next few weeks, what do you expect to hear in here?
You seem to be the one that has expectations about what is valid in a discussion forum, so you tell me. Tell me also, once the taxes have been set so prohibitively high that no businesses are in this city at all, what do you expect to hear in these forums considering that no one will live in this city? You've said "Your time might be better spent finding out why Buffalo has become one of the most wasted underdeveloped natural resources in the USA." Well, cities do not grow because of their great sports teams, otherwise Pittsburgh would be one of the best-growing cities in the country. No, cities grow and become great by having business in the city - look at the boom that Seattle and the Silicon Valley area got during the dot com boom in the early 90s. Yes, perhaps that money is drying up, but tell me the last time that anyone ever uttered, "City Y was doing alright, but BOOM, they got that hockey team and now look at the people flock there."

As far as wanting a better plan of "oh well, no hockey team, let em go". That's not at all what I have said in the long term ... yes in the short term, that is the case ... however, Colorado got a team back, Cleveland and Baltimore got football teams back ... the solution to having a team in the long term is to build up a solid business community. If the team cannot stay in the city without government support (as is currently the case in Buffalo) then it will not last in the city for more than 10 years I say ... and after that, the business community will have been so ravaged due to the taxes spent supporting the team, the city will not be able to recover. By focusing on building the business community, in the long run, Buffalo will be able to support a team.
Your arguments are a kin to a 50 year-old who cannot support his retirement plans yet refuses to sell his Lamborghini even though its car expenses are becoming an increasing drain on his pocket. As his expenses finally get out of hand as the car ages, he can support neither the car nor his retirement and is left with a much worse life than he would have had originally.

Cntrygal

12-26-2002, 07:36 PM

hmmm... I wouldn't want my tax dollars to go into yet another disappearing black hole. The government does that enough already.

Maybe the hockey players ought to shovel peoples driveways and give 100% of their earnings to the organization... it would be a start.
:scratch:

Buffarama

12-26-2002, 07:44 PM

My biggest fault is in assuming you are all Sabre fans. I can't make you Sabre fans, so that pretty much explains your feelings. If you think Buffalo will ever get a team back, your dreaming. If you can stand being without an NHL team for say, oh 5-10 years, then you're not a real fan. I don't know why you would post in a Sabres forum being that you're not fans. Isn't the zoo open?

HenryRules

12-26-2002, 08:05 PM

Buffarama, do you only consider people fans of the team if they don't see reality and value the Sabres above all else in life. Yes, I consider myself a fan, but I'm not at the level where I have escaped reality and the life and death of the Sabres is more important than that of myself. I thought after the repercussions of the deficit spending of the 70s and 80s most people had learned that government's do not have bottomless pits filled with money and must actually evaluate what is important. If you think the Sabres and Bills are #1 and #2 for most important for spending in Buffalo, I really think you need to reevaluate things in life.
I'd also be curious to find the number of Buffarama-style fans that actually live in or around Buffalo considering there's only 12500 showing up each night ... I bet you that over the course of a year, most nightclubs in Buffalo get higher attendance and I don't hear too many of them asking for government money. Come to think of it ... Buffarama, which of your arguments for giving money to the Sabres does not also apply to most nightclubs in Buffalo?

HenryRules

12-26-2002, 08:26 PM

Originally posted by THATHURMANATOR
Dude who cares if they give the sabres 15 or 20 million dollars??? Will it really effect you negatively in any way???

I believe that last year the Buffalo school board needed to lay off something like 500 teachers in order to save $20 million to meet their budget. Yet now people in our same city are saying that $20 million for the Sabres really isn't that much at all.

Buffarama

12-26-2002, 09:02 PM

I can't disagree with you Henry about the schools and police officers, etc. But thats not the reality of the politics. The city has had, I don't know, is it 11 million or so, given them by the state for waterfront development. Will that money ever be given to the schools or policemen? NO. Why, cause thats how these freaks operate. Only so much for this, so much for that.
I agree with you on this. If there were true accounting and reponsible money management that made sense, I would vote to give it to the schools first, etc.
But it doesn't work that way. And if the money is not given to bail out the arena situation, neither will that money go to the schools. It's just the reality of the situation.
I want political reform as much as you.
There is also a chance that this arena could become profitable instead of the drain it now is. Given the prospect of waterfront and downtown development and rejuvination, it can only help.
Education needs to be addressed separately. It shouldn't be but it has to be.

sabresfan18

12-27-2002, 07:59 PM

yes..all of you sabre bashers get out! the sabres WILL stay in Buffalo and if not..i say we boycott adelphia and everyone else involved!

Typ0

12-28-2002, 12:20 AM

I don't think people are seeing the real issues here. Public monies are not going to the Sabres they are going towards the arena. I believe the arena is owned by the city of buffalo and the team pays rent. How is this different than any tennant telling their landlord the dishwasher is on the fritz? The two things I have heard Hammister request are a sound system and parking garage. I really can see his point with the parking garage because it makes the team a lot more economically feasible. Just like taxpayers don't want their tax dollars thrown into a black hole the Hammister group doesn't want their funding thrown into a bottomless pit. I hardly blame them if they aren't carefull they will soon be poor like the Rigas family who obviously couldn't manage without cheating.

As far as the sound system goes I'm not really sure how a new sound system will help fill the arena with concerts. The Destroyers are another story though. They have to play in a mostly empty arena yet it is a growing professional sport. Adding to the value of the live experience certainly can have an impact on the team and the league.

Not really sure how all the numbers break down but the reality is this whole thing has to work on paper before it will ever be permanant. If the parking garage can be shown able to produce revenues for the rentor as well as the rentee that would be a step in the right direction. It's too difficult to take a stance on either end of these issues whilst not knowing the depth, breath and scope of the parties involved and unfortunately we are uninformed.

TonyBuffalo

12-30-2002, 01:23 PM

So does this mean if the city builds a parking ramp all the profits minus the plowing and the guys that collect the money when the cars leave go to the city? But then we have to make sure it doesn't become a patronage job hole for the buffalo unions. We'll end up paying $20 an hour plus beni's and 4 weeks vacation for those attendants.

But all in all, let the sabres go. THere are more pressing matters that money can be used for. THe new arena didn't spur new developement so why keep putting good money after bad. THe arena was suppose to help the cobblestone district what ever that is, and if you noticed, the bars have people in them game night or not.

If sport teams were so good for the area, why after 30 years with the buffalo bills and sabres buffalo is in such a bind.

I fought against adephia getting thier handout to open thier headquarters here. I didn't need my tax money going to my competator. No reason to put my competition on a better foot hold than me espeically with my own money. I would have no issue with a tax breaks as long as the tax break was across the board for every type of business like thiers.

Were you guys listening to the Bills after the last game when they were questioning who will stay or leave based on money offers from other teams? ONe said, well my family comes first when it's reguardnig my salary and stuff. Well some of these players get a million a year or more. Your trying to tell me your family can't bank that and live normally?

Take a career of 5 years at 2 million a pop. that's $10,000,000 in 5 years. you bank it and draw $200,000 a year for 50 years. Must be tough to budget that small amount of money :) I know that was off course for the sabres section but give me a break.

Earthquake Enyart

12-30-2002, 01:28 PM

Nerd.

TonyBuffalo

12-30-2002, 02:20 PM

I would rather be a nerd with money in my pocket than a nerd that supports millionares. :)

Earthquake Enyart

12-30-2002, 02:22 PM

The empty arena costs money too.

It's all about costs and benefits.

Why not convert the Aud into a parking garage?

TonyBuffalo

12-30-2002, 02:24 PM

The new arena shouldn't of been built. THe old aud was fine. THey said oh build the new arena and we'll get more concerts.. wrong... build the new arena we'll get the area to grow... wrong... only people that benifited were the construction company and the hockey players that get paid wether they suck or not.

All that wasted money for what? 6 years? i dont know how old the arena is.

T

Earthquake Enyart

12-30-2002, 02:27 PM

The point is that the arena is built. Now, from what I understand, the county/city/whoever is paying the debt service on it. If the Sabres leave, paying off the debt doesn't go away. You are stuck.

A bad deal with Hammister is lest costly than the Sabres leaving. Hammister knows this. He is no dummy.

TonyBuffalo

12-30-2002, 03:46 PM

you moth ball the arena... pay what is owed on the loan and thats it. Or use it for the occasion concert. If the fans can't support the team in ticket sales you have to stop. Just like a restaurant that has no customers, a retail store that doesn't sell stuff, they go out of business.

Do you know more than 1/3 of my income goes to taxes not counting property tax which is insane in local WNY.

It's just time to say NO more waste period.

Did you go buy your season tickets? did ya? Show you support if you want to keep them. :)

I'm not a hard ass, i just work too hard to pay the taxes i do to see them pissed away like it's grown on trees. Look at the payroll these politicians get to decided how to spend our money.

12-30-2002, 04:25 PM

The Air Canada Centre in Toronto... 100% privately funded.
The Corel Centre in Ottawa...100% privately funded, as a matter of fact, the team had to pay for the construction of the highway off-ramp they built in Kanata.

Don't tell me that every city gets gov't handouts for arenas.

TonyBuffalo

12-30-2002, 05:05 PM

Thank you big doug

Don Cherry

12-30-2002, 06:05 PM

Originally posted by BigDoug
The Air Canada Centre in Toronto... 100% privately funded.
The Corel Centre in Ottawa...100% privately funded, as a matter of fact, the team had to pay for the construction of the highway off-ramp they built in Kanata.

Don't tell me that every city gets gov't handouts for arenas.

Originally posted by TonyBuffalo
Thank you big doug

Going back to cities like Winnipeg, Quebec, and Hartford- Do you think they are glad that they did not sink public money into their sports facilities to retain those teams?

The minute Harford lost he Whale, they fell all over themselves to attract the Patriots. They even managed to get Kraft to sign on the dotted line. They were going to build him a stadium in downtown, anything to make them a big league city again. Tied into this new stadium was the prospect of UCONN going 1-A in football and joining the Big East.

But I bet those cities might reconsider. Especially Quebec- the Team won a cup the year they moved

HenryRules

12-30-2002, 07:15 PM

No, I don't think that Winnipeg is hurting after losing the Jets and no I don't think that Quebec is hurting after losing the diques.

The Jets were replaced by the Moose and they have had a solid following in that town (averaging around 7000/game I think in attendance). Also, the AHL plays 80 game seasons, so there's just as many nights to watch a top-notch hockey team in town. Maybe its not as good as going to see the Jets, but its still good hockey and the town didn't have to waste taxpayers money.

On the other hand, Quebec has both the Citadelles (AHL) and Remparts (QMJHL) to watch at their arena. Again, the NHL is probably more entertaining, but a junior team and an AHL is still really exciting and much more affordable, and again, they didn't have to spend tax money.

On a related note DC, do you think the citizens of Ontario are happy with the Skydome? Are the citizens of Montreal happy with the Olympic Centre? I definitely think not.

Typ0

12-30-2002, 09:03 PM

Tony you seem to be complaining about the players making too much money and the taxes being too high which I don't know what has to do with a hockey team being in WNY. Do you honestly think if the Sabres leave your taxes are going to significantly decrease? The Sabres pay $2M rent to the city and those cash flows will be gone and the arena will be an eyesore that either has to have upkeep funded or be torn down. What about the sales tax revenues from ticket sales and concessions? What Hammister is doing is making the government step up to the plate with something at stake in this deal to get a measure on their level of commitment. It's about a lot more than the cost of a few improvements to the arena. I would have to see some hard figures on the economic impact to the individual taxpayer before I thought these issues were as great as you say they are.

Another thing at question here no one seems to talk about is the development plan for the city. With the tax structure in new york it would seem we need to focus on tourism, hospitality and remote services industries for our future. What impact does the hockey team have on aggressive goals in those areas? How does the hockey team impact the quality of life of the individual taxpayer? There are definately more restaurants and hotel rooms because of the hockey team. There are also more opportunities to host events with the arena. I can honestly say I have avoided concerts at HSBC arena because it isn't a good place to see a concert. I do think the Sabres and the arena improve the quality of life in wny and losing them would reflect very poorly on the city of Buffalo.

Dozerdog

12-30-2002, 10:07 PM

Originally posted by HenryRules
No, I don't think that Winnipeg is hurting after losing the Jets and no I don't think that Quebec is hurting after losing the diques.

The Jets were replaced by the Moose and they have had a solid following in that town (averaging around 7000/game I think in attendance). Also, the AHL plays 80 game seasons, so there's just as many nights to watch a top-notch hockey team in town. Maybe its not as good as going to see the Jets, but its still good hockey and the town didn't have to waste taxpayers money.

On the other hand, Quebec has both the Citadelles (AHL) and Remparts (QMJHL) to watch at their arena. Again, the NHL is probably more entertaining, but a junior team and an AHL is still really exciting and much more affordable, and again, they didn't have to spend tax money.

On a related note DC, do you think the citizens of Ontario are happy with the Skydome? Are the citizens of Montreal happy with the Olympic Centre? I definitely think not.

Oh please, that's like saying "Well, The Bills are in LA now, but Buffalo Is doing OK- they lead the CFL in attendance"

To compare Olympic stadium in Montreal is a joke as well. That place was ruined by poor design and mismanagement. 1 Billion for an umbrella over that thing is comical. The people of Montreal got ripped off. Comparing that to improving parking at a public facility is a stretch.

Ask the people in Winnipeg if they would rather see Mario Lemieux and Patric Roy, or see Brian Holzinger attempting a comeback.

Buffarama

12-30-2002, 11:22 PM

Originally posted by TonyBuffalo
The new arena shouldn't of been built. THe old aud was fine. THey said oh build the new arena and we'll get more concerts.. wrong... build the new arena we'll get the area to grow... wrong... only people that benifited were the construction company and the hockey players that get paid wether they suck or not.

All that wasted money for what? 6 years? i dont know how old the arena is.

T

12-31-2002, 08:54 AM

My, my, a little testy, are we? ;)

Twistmyarm

12-31-2002, 09:01 AM

although I don't agree with his theroy on letting the Sabres go, I must say I kinda agree with the arena theroy. I never quite understood the whole concept behind that one myself. The Aud was fine, we should have put the money into it and fixed it up. to have it sit there and do nothing is a disgrace!!!

It was a classic Buffalo move just like many others. ie: let's put low rent apartments by the waterfront, let's put a skyway running right along our waterfront. hey let's let some dumbass bring a big ugly ship to our waterfront and then disappear into thin air so we are stuck with this eyesore, let's hold on to industry with our every fiber even though industry is dead in this city, let's put the football stadium out in OP instead of close to downtown so the businesses can benefit from it....

let's face it people this city has made some real a**hole descisions!!!!!

TonyBuffalo

12-31-2002, 11:08 AM

thank you keep :)

Where some of you miss the point is, there's a lot of self employeed people in the area that are having it tough. It's nice to go to work and know for the most part you have a check at the end of the week when you work for someone. Now that's not that case with some companies going down the toliet but in general you know if you do a good job you know you get your money.

THe self employyed don't have a magic tree in back that keeps the money going when the economy is bad. We work, and work.

When the goverment does some lame ass idea that affects businesses in the area, that direct affects my income. WHen they give money to a developer to build a plaza that allows them tax breaks, then they pass those break to people that complete against me. THen it's even worse when it's grant money seeing some of that money is out of my pocket.

Maybe if local politicians didn't get us into this bind we are all in now we would cut them some slack.

Well the rope is too short now...

12-31-2002, 01:18 PM

Tony, I hear you with the small business POV. Some people just don't get it.

The Senators just did a big faux pas by alienating the local small business owners in the Ottawa area. Basically, Bryden called them out, saying he felt they didn't "pull their weight" by buying more season's tickets for their businesses.

Ottawa is mostly a government town & also has a large part of their economy based in high-tech companies like Corel & Nortel and the spin-off IT consultants from that sector. I don't need to tell you how Nortel or Corel & IT in general is performing financially, so that's why the Senators aren't doing well in the seasons ticket dept. I would imagine the Sabres are in the same booat for similar reasons...

I have a good friend who owns a successful IT consultancy in Ottawa who faced this dilema last summer because of the ecomomic downturn...either keep the corporate seasons tix or lay off two people. Guess what his choice was ? Screw the tickets.

Smart man.

Typ0

12-31-2002, 01:41 PM

Buffarama you have been warned about that post. What's worse is I am leaving it there because it makes you look bad. You obviously know about the rules there are repurcussions. Please refrain from abusing people and these boards.

TonyBuffalo

12-31-2002, 03:36 PM

THank you big doug.

Good example was they were going to give adelphia all that money. Some of it was CASH not jsut a tax break. THey complete with me for internet access and hosting.

Now, the cash amount was $50,000,000. Give me $50 million instead and I would hire a load of people also. Now if these Rigas were so rich as they stated, $50,000,000 would of been nothing to invest in thier own company. Plus this shows the people giving the money don't do thier homework. I wonder what set of books they were looking at when they said, Oh this will be a good investment.

If Hamister is going to use any money at all from the county then there's no reason to keep various things in the dark. If someone was going to hand me a wade of money i'd let them go through what ever they wanted to.

There's 3 sides to the coin here, the people that work for people, the goverment politicians, and then the people that acutally earn the cash.

I don't mean employees, I mean the self owned business owners, the top of the food chain i guess you would say. We are the ones that risk our time and money. If we don't decid to open a business here or there, there are no places for the employees to work. If there's no businesses then there's no tax generation. Oh no property tax from homes seeing people that live in homes need jobs.

Now seeing we risk our money on ventures, we expect to earn as much as we can on our investment. We do not like to see the losers that get elected take the money we earn and paid in taxes and piss it away like water. Now that doesn't mean i expect to risk other people money doing so.

Giving money to a sports team is pissing it away. Honestly as quality of life goes, I don't care if my nieghbor gets to watch hockey if i have to pay for it. Even if it's a little out of my pocket, i would rather leave it in my pocket.

I wouldn't mind if the county loaned hamister the money but then there's NO clause to get out of the loan. He loses his house, his personal cash if he can't pay the loan. Just like any normal business would do.

Earthquake Enyart

12-31-2002, 03:42 PM

Tony, I hope you have a good secretary. Geesh. And there are only two sides to a coin. If there were three they would be all lumpy in your pockets.

I do agree with you. The biggest point being that all these "deals" should see the light of day and be fully disclosed to the public. But the big problem is that the past adminstration(s?) have been sold bills of goods that are just now rearing their ugly heads. You are already up the creek without a paddle. The only real choice now is to take that lousy POS paddle that Hammister offers.

12-31-2002, 03:57 PM

Originally posted by Earthquake Enyart
If there were three they would be all lumpy in your pockets.

Is that a roll of quarters in your pocket? ;)

Earthquake Enyart

12-31-2002, 04:00 PM

No, I'm just happy to see you!

TonyBuffalo

12-31-2002, 04:01 PM

No i made a point about the 2 versus 3 sides. And yes my employees check my grammer and spelling for all business related things :)

If Hamister fully believes he can make money with the sabres then he doens't need help. IF he needs help at thier current "VALUE" then thier "VALUE" is too high. Why can't they just give him the sabres for $30 million?

Who thinks they are worth $60 million? Why are there not a zillion other millionares jumping at the chance to own the team?

You know why? THEY DON"T MAKE MONEY IN SMALL MARKETS.

I think thier "value" is written from the same book as politicians come up with thier paychecks.

WHo knows this answer?

Which hockey teams acutally make a profit? DO they all but not hte sabres? Are most just money pits? I dont know. Educate me.

TonyBuffalo

12-31-2002, 04:02 PM

Oh,

BTW,

Someone said i'm bitter :) I'm not, I just don't like watching what NYS has pissed away through all the layers of politicains and thier cronies.

Remeber support the www.ipny.org !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Earthquake Enyart

12-31-2002, 04:08 PM

The last 2 expansion teams went for $80 mil.

If you read what's in the paper, Hammister is only coming up with $30. The other $30 is promised as an operating fund to fund expected losses over the next 3 years.

Hammister is betting on the come that the new CBA will lighten the load and make the Sabres profitable. But it seems that he knows the arena lease contract better than the county and city do. He knows that once the dummies crunch the numbers, they are better off with his deal than no deal. Which ain't saying much.

HenryRules

01-01-2003, 07:26 PM

The price of the last 2 expansion teams, while perhaps serving as a ballpark figure, can be quite misleading.
For starters, no debt is inherited when purchasing an expansion team ... this is not the case when purchasing existing teams.
Secondly, there are limited restrictions for an expansion team (i.e. pre-existing lease agreement, advertising contracts, overpaid players/management, etc.). For an expansion team, there are no such restrictions.
Thirdly, most teams that are sold (i.e. the Sabres) are being sold because there are severe problems with the existing framework. This is not the case with an expansion team.
Finally, when buying an expansion team, you have the freedom to put it where you want to (with some restrictions), whereas most purchases of existing teams (i.e. the Sabres) require keeping the team in the same unprofitable area.

The sole manner of valuing a franchise should be the buyer sells it for the best offer. This manner of valuation becomes bastardized when public money is given to the purchaser for free. It minimizes the risks for the investor (by minimizing the sunk costs in his purchase) yet does nothing at all to minimize his possible returns ... making a higher purchasing price seem more attractive than it truly is.

TonyBuffalo

01-02-2003, 09:07 PM

Originally posted by BillyT92679
Losing the Sabres would hurt, but the worst thing to happen to Buffalo would be if the Bills moved.
The NFL keeps Western NY on the viability map.

He has a point, if we are stuck paying for something it should be football. Much more popular.

THink about it this way, how many people sit in the arena versus the stadium? Even on a bad day for the bills the stadium has a lot of people at a game. For the amount that go to hockey, it's like a drop in the bucket compared to football.

Typ0

01-06-2003, 03:40 AM

I'm sorry but some people don't miss the point at all. People who open businesses do take more risks but they also get more returns. That's the way it work's some people are more risk averse and they don't want to take the risks. But that doesn't mean they have taken on an inferior station in life and it doesn't mean that their purchasing power should be forced into gobbling up inferior services. You sound like you think you are the only real stakeholder here. People who work for others are the ones that earn the money not the owners like you say. You make it sound like the workers have no choice but to go to work for you because they are only workers and you are the owner. There are plenty of workers who have been screwed over by incompetent ownership and management. I guess they deserve it they didn't take any risks...after all they are only workers.

THe self employed don't have a magic tree in back that keeps the money going when the economy is bad. We work, and work.

I'm sure all the working folk chose their paths just because they get their own money tree.

Where some of you miss the point is, there's a lot of self employeed people in the area that are having it tough.

Oh break my heart. Everyone is having it tough my friend you seem to think you are isolated in your frustrations. I'm certain all the unemployed are just over joyed at how well things are going for them.

THink about it this way, how many people sit in the arena versus the stadium? Even on a bad day for the bills the stadium has a lot of people at a game. For the amount that go to hockey, it's like a drop in the bucket compared to football.

RWS: 75,000 tickets times 8 games = 600,000 tickets available throught the box office.

HSBC: 20000 tickets to 42 games = 820,000 tickets available through the box office.

About the aud, a professional hockey team could not survive in the Aud. You need to look into a concept called life-cycles and the economic perils of reviving the old instead of moving on. Rebuilding the Aud for the team would just be a huge waste of money and subject them to certain peril. At least the arena gives them a fighting chance. The Sabres deal is either going to work with the Arena or it isn't going to work at all. Pumping a lot of cash into the Aud is like putting a band-aid on a severed leg. Very sound financial advice.

TonyBuffalo

01-06-2003, 12:34 PM

I think you missed my point a little. Your right on some points, I'm talking more about the "White collar" politicians, and the white collar "goverment supervisors".

WHen you have a gauranteed high salary, you are not as motivated to get off your ass to make things better. Just look at the waste disposal group in amherst. THe "Supervisor" just didn't want the new waste processing equipment to work. Apparently he never wanted to learn the proper way to run the equipment and it turned into a $60,000 a month venture. Now that the right person is running the equipment it's producing how it should and costing more like $1500 a month.

It's no all goverment workers, or unions. It's the few that set a bad example. go to www.realamherst.com or www.politicswny.com. THey are both a little flaky but some of the stuff is true.

And as for risk, yes we have a better chance to make more, but we are taking the risk. Anyone can, so don't blow smoke and say that's our reward.

I risk my money and that is what it is, then have our local leaders give tax breaks to bring a competitor in right across the street from me that is wrong. Specially when they get a tax cut and or a grant to do so. DOn't use my money against me.

We are not talking protecting the homeland or the poor. Look how close we got to giving adelphia all that money. Just think, we could of handed over millions and they could of stole that too. I noticed the great backgroud checks the goverment does. :)

Typ0

01-06-2003, 03:45 PM

I hear you there is way too much incompetence in government and corporate america. I have no idea how some people get in the positions they get in. I'll tell you one thing people value good looks a lot more than they do abilities. If someone can talk a good line of BS and dresses well they stand a good chance of moving up the ladder and ending up in a position where they are responsible for other peoples fates. Presentation is everything. I'm sure you can cite contrary arguements but there are ten times as many examples. It is these white collar people who control everything and basically make all the significant decisions. In some ways we are really on the same page here. It's just that there are business owners who are tyrrants, horde everything for themselves, use their gains to assert political power and then turn around and start telling people they are the reason our society is successful. As far as I am concerned no one person is more important than another I don't care if they are Bill Gates or the homeless guy on the corner. Don't neccesarily think I am classifying you in any type of group here either because I am not really talking about you. I am talking about social attitudes.

What I am saying is our plight should be against bad management and incompetence not the Sabres. That is the tone I hear from you. You seem to think we should just give up on the sabres because of decades of political ineptness. What I am saying is we should cherish the opportunity to have a professional hockey team in Buffalo and push towards getting the management and leadership it takes to make the project successful. I'm not saying keep the team if there is no way it can be successful...but I have never seen any hard data saying it can't and I believe Hammister is not going to throw his life into a sinking ship. Therefore, he is making some assertions about what it is going to take to make it successful. Now the city has to evaluate if it's viable or not...but just saying no it isn't viable because we would be spending taxpayers money and the political machine has proven they can't do anything right not only could cost the city a valuable asset but also fails to address the correct problem.

Don't get me wrong Tony I'm all for your success. I understand the challenges faced by businesses of all sizes. You work hard and you deserve to be in an economic environment that at least doesn't leave you wondering what is going to happen to you tomorrow. But does this situation with the Sabres really impact it all that negatively as you are saying? Is it really too much for you to spend an extra 10 cents a year for the next three years to improve the quality of life of millions of blue-collar workers in a blue-collar town? If the deal is put together properly in the long run the taxpayers are the ones who will ultimately benefit because the franchise will generate revenues for the city. What if you get a 4 cent return for the rest of your life is that worth your 30 cent contribution? What if your children get to go to better schools with better teachers? That's the bottom line--the net present value of all the projected cash flows from the franchise. Some things are very hard to measure but if this city doesn't fight to keep the sabres I'll tell you right now the Bills will be the next to leave, the UB football program will fold and the theatres will start closing. People have to make a choice if they want to spiral downward into a ghost town or rise up into a resepectable community.

We are talking about trying to keep a bigger star on the map next to western new york. Frankly, if people don't want to persue that I think they should move into the hills in the deep south, make corn mash whiskey and smoke a corn cob pipe.

TonyBuffalo

01-06-2003, 09:18 PM

Right,

But it's more than 30 cents. It's the 30 cents here and there that add up.

I would love to have a hockey team, or any team but seeing our local leaders latly are just a cluster duk, it makes it hard to give someone money thats a part of the group.

It was wrong that hamister bided well knowing he needed money. That should of been on the table before the bid. Problem is they want to maximize the amount of profit they will make while in turn probally not give anything to the comunity back. Will we see lower ticket prices? will we see parking in the new ramp at 4 bucks for all event seeing it's owned by the county? I bet not. Will we see skate nights open to all the inner city kids for free or at least sponsered by local businesses at very very reduced at cost pricing? this would instill in these kids why they should work hard and learn. If they always get to look at hte place but never experience, there's no point.

Someone made a point about 600,000 ticket at bills game and then 800,000 tickets from hockey. When ever, even when the sabres were average did they sell out all the games ? i dont know, but what year had the highest accountable paid attendance? Not attendance that had supplement tickets given to all adelphia employees to fill the seats.

ALso, why the hell is the food and items so costly? It has to be where the average person in buffalo can go and not spend thier weeks paycheck for a family of 5 or so. I went to one concert and the beer was like 6 bucks and flat. I would of rather paid 3 bucks for a cheap can of beer versus the stale draft beer they had.

Soda at 3 to 4 bucks a glass. give me a break, a liter bottle is a buck. IF they allowed people to bring thier own snacks, then the normal blue collared people would go and acutally not get ripped on those items. If they were reasonably priced people wouldn't bother to bring anything anyhow.

I would love them to play in the arena, sometimes things just can't be afforded and must go.

Also, all and any books have to be open to the public if public money is at risk. Just because you can make money in one business enviroment, it doesn't mean you can make money on a hockey team.

Now with that in question... do the destroyers make money? I dont have a clue how that works.

T