Greatest Bill of all time?

[The_Philster]

simple as that...who do you think it was?

[Crisis]

Drew Bledsoe.

[STAMPY]

Don beebe

[Dozerdog]

The Bills have 5 players in the pro football hall of fame, and only 2 make your list?

[Jayhawk]

Doug Flutie.

[The_Philster]

The Bills have 5 players in the pro football hall of fame, and only 2 make your list?How many people are gonna select a guard as the greatest player ?and Lofton was here for a short period of time...that's why I didn't put them in..but if you think they might garner some votes, be my guest and add them
Doug Flutie.:rofl:

[generalmills]

gotta go with Kelly. Anyone that watched the bills during the 80's and 90's knows why. I dont think anyone else can possibly come close.

[Jan Reimers]

Kelly was the undisputed leader of our Super Bowl teams. He has to be our best ever.

[The_Philster]

Only guy to ever have his jersey officially retired :up:

[Slim]

Kelly and Simpson are close

Simpson posted 2000 yards in a 14 game season. Most players reach 2000 yards on week 17.

When we had Simpson, he was are only threat, the passing game was'nt that good. When defenses played Buffalo, they'd try to do one thing on defense, and that was stop O.J. When we had Kelly, we had T.Thomas to help take the pressure off of him, the defesne couldnt focus on stopping one particular threat.

[juice]

Kelly and Simpson are close

Simpson posted 2000 yards in a 14 game season. Most players reach 2000 yards on week 17.

When we had Simpson, he was are only threat, the passing game was'nt that good. When defenses played Buffalo, they'd try to do one thing on defense, and that was stop O.J. When we had Kelly, we had T.Thomas to help take the pressure off of him, the defesne couldnt focus on stopping one particular threat.Exactly slim.. thats the definition of greatness - they knew it was coming and still couldn't stop him.

Kelly was part of a Freakin' dynasty, an offensive powerhouse and lets not even talk about the great players on those defenses with Bruce Smith.

OJ had no Defense or passing game to assist his efforts.. and still licked for an average of 1500 yds between 72-76.. the greatest 5 seasons in League history by any RB on a team that averaged a limited # of wins per season.

[ionlyusesmilies]

Drew Bledsoe.
:no:

[ublinkwescore]

carwell gardner

for punking brian cox

[BillsFanInMass]

i know most people are gonna say Kelly but Steve Tasker was my favorite Bill he did awesome everywhere they put him. What a motor on that guy. Kelly didnt even watn to play for buffalo at first.

[pleasesavedrew]

Jim Kelly. 4 Super Bowls, the face of the Bills for years

[juice]

Jim Kelly. 4 Super Bowls, the face of the Bills for years4 SB loses in a row.. talk about never closing the deal.

Kelly could be the biggest choke artist in League history.. with all the talent surrounding him it seems like if he was that great of a FOOTBALL player that he would have at least 1 ring.

Juice was a football player.

[chubluv]

Cookie

[Novacane]

Jimbo hands down IMO.

[PUCKER]

#12 Jim Kelly! :up:

[The_Philster]

carwell gardnerfor punking brian cox:snicker2: I watched that again over the weekend

[LtFinFan66]

Greatest: Probably OJ

MyFav as a non-Bill Fan: Bruce Smith. Dude was there week in and week out playing his heart out every snap!

[ExWNYer]

gotta go with Kelly. Anyone that watched the bills during the 80's and 90's knows why. I dont think anyone else can possibly come close.


Kelly was the undisputed leader of our Super Bowl teams. He has to be our best ever.

The responses in this thread indicate that a lot of people are not old enough to remember O.J. Simpson's playing days. Although he is a reprehensible human being and will eternally burn in hell, he is, hands down, bar none, the greatest football player ever to don a Bills uniform. He was underutilized and almost completely ignored early in his career, on horrible teams, until Lou Saban came along and made him the focal point of the offense. He was unbelievable, a combination of speed and power with great hands, and could glide like a gazelle in the open field.
BTW, I'm looking forward to Willis McGahee getting back his "second gear". His running style reminds me a lot of O.J.'s and he has the chance to be special.

[Bill Brasky]

Kelly and Simpson are close

Simpson posted 2000 yards in a 14 game season. Most players reach 2000 yards on week 17.

When we had Simpson, he was are only threat, the passing game was'nt that good. When defenses played Buffalo, they'd try to do one thing on defense, and that was stop O.J. When we had Kelly, we had T.Thomas to help take the pressure off of him, the defesne couldnt focus on stopping one particular threat.

You stole the words from my mouth...

Kelly and Simpson are pretty much equal in my book as the greatest player for this franchise.

[Historian]

Tom Sestak.

Saban said he was the best player he ever coached.

I agree.

[EDS]

Bruce all the way. He was a once in a lifetime type of talent.

[Luisito23]

MARV LEEVY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :bf1: :bf1: :bf1: :bf1: :bf1:


GO BILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :respect: :respect: :respect: :respect: :respect:

[The_Philster]

Tom Sestak. Saban said he was the best player he ever coached. I agree.He should've been in Canton by now :fury:

[im4bflo]

What about JACK KEMP ???
2 CHAMPIONSHIPS - MVP !
Out of your list I pick OJ, he's easily the greatest player.

[Meathead]

Man, that's tough.

Jimbo - great leader, tough as nails, balls as big as watermelons

Bruce - unbelievable physical talent, one of the best all-time ends

Thurman - as good as anybody at running, catching, and blocking

But I’m going to have to go with the double-murderer. He was the only option on a very bad team and he still piled up yards game after game. You know how when they make a football movie it looks pathetically fake as the “hero” runs around player after player to make a TD? Well, that’s how OJ looked all the time. He made the other players look like they were faking tackle attempts. He couldn’t catch and he couldn’t block, but damn could he run and run and run.

[Dr. Lecter]

Very tough choice.

Bruce was so dominant for so many years, he edges out Kelly, Thurman and OJ.

What he did from the DE position was just incredible.

[McGee]

Without a doubt, OJ! Here's why:
O. J. (http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=195) was not an immediate success and, in fact, did not even win Rookie of the Year acclaim in 1969. Incredibly, he was used sparingly as a running back through his first three campaigns until Lou Saban took over the reins in 1972 and immediately decided to give the 6-1, 212-pound speedster the football as often as possible. Simpson immediately responded with massive ground-gaining performances. O.J. may be best remembered for his sensational 1973 season when he became the first back in history to rush for over 2,000 yards. With 219 yards in the next-to-last game against New England and a 200-yard output in the finale with the New York Jets, Simpson totaled 2,003 yards, tops for a 14-game season.

Many say the 1975 season was even better - 1,817 yards rushing, 426 yards on receptions and a then-record 23 touchdowns. O.J. led the league in rushing four years in 1972, 1973, 1975 and 1976.

In various selections, he was named NFL Player of the Year in 1972, 1973 and 1975. He was both All-AFC and All-Pro five straight years from 1972 through 1976. He played in six Pro Bowls, winning Player of the Game honors in the 1973 game. Bruce Smith would be second on my list. That's just my opinion & I'm sure not everyone will agree with it simply because of the K-Gun.

[Mr.Right]

4 SB loses in a row.. talk about never closing the deal.

Kelly could be the biggest choke artist in League history.. with all the talent surrounding him it seems like if he was that great of a FOOTBALL player that he would have at least 1 ring.

Juice was a football player.
WoW!!!!
:shocked:
....a "realistic" and intelligent Bills fan! :clap:
I've never seen one of those around here before!
:scratch:
O.J. and Bruce Smith were probably your teams' best "players" but i'll go with my personal favorite:

:bow:
http://www.indystar.com/library/factfiles/sports/football/indpls_colts/2001_season/img/robsack.jpg
R.J. :up:

[Dr. Lecter]

4 SB loses in a row.. talk about never closing the deal.

Kelly could be the biggest choke artist in League history.. with all the talent surrounding him it seems like if he was that great of a FOOTBALL player that he would have at least 1 ring.

Juice was a football player.
I hate when people make it sound like losing Super Bowls is worse than never making one.

[juice]

I hate when people make it sound like losing Super Bowls is worse than never making one.Yeah me too Mehser.. Alot if HoFers came off of those SB teams and alot of seats were filled.

But those SB loses are the one thing that separates a very good QB such as Kelly from the all time great QB's such as Montana, Elway or Starr.

Even Marino, if given the chance in 4 SB appearances, would have put the team on his shoulders and willed them to a Win in at least 1 outta 4 chances..

The difference between Being Good and Being Great is the ability to take over a game and elevate the play of your teammates by showing them that you refuse to lose.

Can you imagine Favre going to 4 consecutive SBs and not winning one of them, just outta his pure heart?

Now can you imagine OJ being surrounded with the level of talent that Kelly was and not lasting 15 years in the League and being thought of as the best RB to ever play the game?

The only reason OJ isn't #1 or 2 on anyone's list is because of OJ running left, OJ running right, OJ for 5 more.. he was option A,B & C on those 70s teams and took too much punishment.. classic example of being Mis-used early in his career and over-used in his later years.

The thing that he had over Jim Brown or Walter Peyton is that he was an excellent reciever contrary to popular belief.. and I'm not just talking about screen passes.

[TedMock]

This is getting out of hand. Kelly and OJ are very close in the "greatest Bill" race. People are discounting Kelly because of the Superbowl Losses which, IMO, is just completely ridiculous. Kelly had put that team on his shoulder many, many, many times and won games. The Superbowls were not his statistically best games, but at one point you have to realize that he and Beebe were the only two guys on the field still playing like it was worth something, even when the game was out of hand. He also took such a beating in those games. Our o-line was awesome all season, but for some reason in the big games the line broke down. He was knocked on his butt so many times in the big games. We should have won the first superbowl, but after that we were flat out out-manned. Even in the first one, our defense was pushed up and down the field, mainly Jeff Wright. We let Smerlas go one year too early. A lot of QB's, including Kelly, may have been up to the task in the first one, but there are no QB's anywhere that could've won 2, 3, or 4, no matter how great. We were just not as good as that Redskins team, or that Cowboys team. Especially Dallas. It pains me to say that, but that is the truth. Kelly didn't choke, he was one of the few guys still trying at the end of 3 of them. He was out early in one.

[Meathead]

That Dallas team is the best of all-time, imo. Somebody kill me.

They were at their absolute peak and were just loaded at every position, including starter caliber backups. The combination of sucking so badly for years and the rediculous Herschel Walker trade gave them first and second round draft picks up and down virtually their entire roster.

Thank GOD the onset of modern free agency literally tore them apart because otherwise they might have won eight superbowls that decade.

[juice]

This is getting out of hand. Kelly and OJ are very close in the "greatest Bill" race. People are discounting Kelly because of the Superbowl Losses which, IMO, is just completely ridiculous. Kelly had put that team on his shoulder many, many, many times and won games. The Superbowls were not his statistically best games, but at one point you have to realize that he and Beebe were the only two guys on the field still playing like it was worth something, even when the game was out of hand. He also took such a beating in those games. Our o-line was awesome all season, but for some reason in the big games the line broke down. He was knocked on his butt so many times in the big games. We should have won the first superbowl, but after that we were flat out out-manned. Even in the first one, our defense was pushed up and down the field, mainly Jeff Wright. We let Smerlas go one year too early. A lot of QB's, including Kelly, may have been up to the task in the first one, but there are no QB's anywhere that could've won 2, 3, or 4, no matter how great. We were just not as good as that Redskins team, or that Cowboys team. Especially Dallas. It pains me to say that, but that is the truth. Kelly didn't choke, he was one of the few guys still trying at the end of 3 of them. He was out early in one.BroadWay Joe went into the SB with what many thought was an inferior team, showed Heart and resolve, Chewed bubble gum and kicked some Ass - Any team can win on any given SuperBowl Sunday, if they want that ring bad enough.. and Joe wasn't even top 15 in League history.

Kelly kinda went flat in SB games, can you imagine Marino letting his line get knocked on it's tail without putting a foot in his OLINEMANs' ass and manufactoring a win in 4 consecutive SBs.. The Bills Defense was tight and played well enough for Kelly to win 1/4.

OJ would've toted the Rock for 200yds if he had EVER been on a SB team.. And IT wasn't a damn thing the Steel Curtain or anyone else coulda' done about it.

Kelly is Top 15 in NFL history at his position and could never carry the team on his back to win the big one.. making Jim very good.

OJ is top 3 in League History at his position, Carried a sorry Bills team on his back weekly for 5 years in a row averageing 1500 yds in 14 games from '72-'76.. that and 2000 yds in 14 games, the only man ever to accomplish the feat, Made OJ very Great.

[Dr. Lecter]

Yeah me too Mehser.. Alot if HoFers came off of those SB teams and alot of seats were filled.

But those SB loses are the one thing that separates a very good QB such as Kelly from the all time great QB's such as Montana, Elway or Starr.

Even Marino, if given the chance in 4 SB appearances, would have put the team on his shoulders and willed them to a Win in at least 1 outta 4 chances..

The difference between Being Good and Being Great is the ability to take over a game and elevate the play of your teammates by showing them that you refuse to lose.

Can you imagine Favre going to 4 consecutive SBs and not winning one of them, just outta his pure heart?

Now can you imagine OJ being surrounded with the level of talent that Kelly was and not lasting 15 years in the League and being thought of as the best RB to ever play the game?

The only reason OJ isn't #1 or 2 on anyone's list is because of OJ running left, OJ running right, OJ for 5 more.. he was option A,B & C on those 70s teams and took too much punishment.. classic example of being Mis-used early in his career and over-used in his later years.

The thing that he had over Jim Brown or Walter Peyton is that he was an excellent reciever contrary to popular belief.. and I'm not just talking about screen passes.
First off, OJ was nowhere close to Peyton as a receiver. Walter was one the great RB's out of the backfield. How can you say OJ had that ability over him????

And OJ was never in the Super Bowl. Youi blame that on the rest of his team. Kelly was on a team that made 4 Super Bowls, but lost. And you seem to be blaming him for the losses.

[mysticsoto]

This is getting out of hand. Kelly and OJ are very close in the "greatest Bill" race. People are discounting Kelly because of the Superbowl Losses which, IMO, is just completely ridiculous. Kelly had put that team on his shoulder many, many, many times and won games. The Superbowls were not his statistically best games, but at one point you have to realize that he and Beebe were the only two guys on the field still playing like it was worth something, even when the game was out of hand. He also took such a beating in those games. Our o-line was awesome all season, but for some reason in the big games the line broke down. He was knocked on his butt so many times in the big games. We should have won the first superbowl, but after that we were flat out out-manned. Even in the first one, our defense was pushed up and down the field, mainly Jeff Wright. We let Smerlas go one year too early. A lot of QB's, including Kelly, may have been up to the task in the first one, but there are no QB's anywhere that could've won 2, 3, or 4, no matter how great. We were just not as good as that Redskins team, or that Cowboys team. Especially Dallas. It pains me to say that, but that is the truth. Kelly didn't choke, he was one of the few guys still trying at the end of 3 of them. He was out early in one.
Personally, I always felt the blame should go on Levy for our losses. I never felt the team was prepared and had a game plan adequately implemented. The 1st one we lost is where it was the most apparent. The no-huddle offense confounded many during the season, but in the superbowl, it was countered and if the no-huddle didn't work, there was no backup plan or no changing of strategy to throw the other team off. They knew what to expect of us and we just sat there and let them take us out of our game without any ability whatsoever to adapt. I cannot blame that on Kelly - as he is just executing what Marv and him have discussed. But I always hoped that in the 2nd half, we'd come out differently. In some of those SB games we game out better defensively, but still - Levy always seemed slow to adapt and counter on any game plan schemes.

[TedMock]

BroadWay Joe went into the SB with what many thought was an inferior team, showed Heart and resolve, Chewed bubble gum and kicked some Ass - Any team can win on any given SuperBowl Sunday, if they want that ring bad enough.. and Joe wasn't even top 15 in League history.

Kelly kinda went flat in SB games, can you imagine Marino letting his line get knocked on it's tail without putting a foot in his OLINEMANs' ass and manufactoring a win in 4 consecutive SBs.. The Bills Defense was tight and played well enough for Kelly to win 1/4.

OJ would've toted the Rock for 200yds if he had EVER been on a SB team.. And IT wasn't a damn thing the Steel Curtain or anyone else coulda' done about it.

Kelly is Top 15 in NFL history at his position and could never carry the team on his back to win the big one.. making Jim very good.

OJ is top 3 in League History at his position, Carried a sorry Bills team on his back weekly for 5 years in a row averageing 1500 yds in 14 games from '72-'76.. that and 2000 yds in 14 games, the only man ever to accomplish the feat, Made OJ very Great.

I understand where you're going with Kelly, but I disagree. Nobody got on their o-line more than Jim did. You are right that our defense was good enough in one of those games, but not in the other 3. If Broadway Joe's (great QB no doubt) defense played as well as ours in those Superbowls, he loses. I also think top 15 equals great, not very good. The guy was more of a leader than most QB's, so I don't personally feel that was an issue.

I agree with everything you say about OJ though. Great back, no matter what. He didn't have much else except a great run-blocking O-line. The electric company is grossly underrated. OJ is definitely a top 3 back IMO, but he couldn't will a team by himself, nor can any one player.

[juice]

First off, OJ was nowhere close to Peyton as a receiver. Walter was one the great RB's out of the backfield. How can you say OJ had that ability over him????Lets look at their best recieving year statistically..

SWEET '83 53rec 607yds 11.5ypc 2tds


JUICE '75 28rec 426yds 15.2ypc 7tds

The #s dont Lie OJ was a great rec. just under used in that capacity.

Walter was catching alot of screens and losing yds alot of the time.. Chi. used that quick screen like a run play resulting in short gains and few TD's.

OJ averaged 15.2ypc, on half as many receptions, gaining 181 fewer yds resulting in 3.5x as many TDs.. and that was in 14 games while WP played in 16gms. Who was the more effective reciever?


And OJ was never in the Super Bowl. Youi blame that on the rest of his team. Kelly was on a team that made 4 Super Bowls, but lost. And you seem to be blaming him for the losses.Can you name a Pro Bowler at a skill position off of the teams of the '70s? Trust me there weren't many, How about the SB teams of the '80s? With Thurman and Reed how could Kelly not look great?

Maybe Jim was just good and 'Dre and Thurmal and that Defense were great.

Come on Mehser OJ had NO help.. no defense to shut out opponents and no pass game to play from behind - OJ had to put up more points than the opposition almost by himself.

Mia had a balanced squad and the nucleus of the undefeated team in the era thats why the Bills could never beat them.. they had much more talent and Shula coaching it.

[Dr. Lecter]

Did you really just use one year to compare the career receiving abilities of OJ and Peyton?

I loved OJ. He was my childhood hero.

But he was a step behinf Peyton in overall skills (especially throwing in blocking ability)

And he is no shoe-in for the all-time Bill. Remember, I voted for Bruce, not Jimbo.

[The_Philster]

I hate when people make it sound like losing Super Bowls is worse than never making one.I don't...just means you can discount their NFL opinions pretty easily cause they don't have a clue about the league :peace:

[juice]

Did you really just use one year to compare the career receiving abilities of OJ and Peyton?

I loved OJ. He was my childhood hero.

But he was a step behinf Peyton in overall skills (especially throwing in blocking ability)

And he is no shoe-in for the all-time Bill. Remember, I voted for Bruce, not Jimbo.No I just compared each players stats from their single best year.. Oj also put up over 1800 yds in that same season, 15 yds/rec and 16 tds which means he wasn't catching a bunch of quick screens which are basically pitches and he wasn't getting stopped for negative yards. Oj could actually go out into a pattern and make the catch or he could take a screen pass 80 yards for the TD.

Walter could be covered by a LBer because he was limited in size and speed.. Juice had World class speed, and the size to run deeper patterns and once he got into the secondary there wasn't a DB in the League that could catch him.

Walter was good within the system and Ditka knew how to utilize him to control the ball once that All World defense caused a TO or a Punt.

I dont know what your talking about a "step Behind in skills" Peyton was kinda slow and kinda small, and didn't take his team to the SB before he was surrounded by alot of talent and given an All Madden Defense.

[Jan Reimers]

juice, I liked OJ very much as a player, too, but if you're going to blame Kelly for the 4 straight SB losses, you must also consider that for all of OJ's greatness, he never even got us into 1.

[SABURZFAN]

bruce smith



this guy didn't need Training Camp nor Preseason.he was ready to go when Week 1 rolled around.

[Jan Reimers]

bruce smith



this guy didn't need Training Camp nor Preseason.he was ready to go when Week 1 rolled around.
Heck, Billy Jo Hobert didn't even need the playbook.

[juice]

Can you name a Pro Bowler at a skill position off of the teams of the '70s? Trust me there weren't many, How about the SB teams of the '80s? With Thurman and Reed how could Kelly not look great?

Maybe Jim was just good and 'Dre and Thurmal and that Defense were great.

Come on Mehser OJ had NO help.. no defense to shut out opponents and no pass game to play from behind - OJ had to put up more points than the opposition almost by himself.

Mia had a balanced squad and the nucleus of the undefeated team in the era thats why the Bills could never beat them.. they had much more talent and Shula coaching it.
juice, I liked OJ very much as a player, too, but if you're going to blame Kelly for the 4 straight SB losses, you must also consider that for all of OJ's greatness, he never even got us into 1.Jan, when you have a record of 0-4 then there's enough blame to go around - Thurman has to take blame fpr fumbling at the start of the 2nd half in one loss.. I think Bruce had to sit out of 1 because of a stomach Virus, he has to take the blame for that one.. I'm sure Reed failed to be a factor in at least i SB loss.. And Kelly was no better than average in all 4 losses.

OJ Never had a Defense, Never had a passing attack to balance out the offense, and most of the coaches were below par, even Saban didn't have to be a freakin' Genius to Run OJ every other play.

OJ can take the blame for never getting to a SB, but alot of fans don't recognize that the Juice made Bills Football popular in places besides WNY even on 2-12 teams.

Reference the above post for clarification.

[The_Philster]

bruce smiththis guy didn't need Training Camp nor Preseason.he was ready to go when Week 1 rolled around.That's not completely true...he did need to take at least a half to get ready. ;) Remember the 96 opener against the Giants? He was invisible in the first half...but after halftime, Dave Brown was in a world of pain thanks to Bruce and Paup

[juice]

That's not completely true...he did need to take at least a half to get ready. ;) Remember the 96 opener against the Giants? He was invisible in the first half...but after halftime, Dave Brown was in a world of pain thanks to Bruce and PaupI remember one SB he didn't even travel with the team and blamed it on the Stomach Flu.. I think he was really beefin' about a new contract.

[The_Philster]

I remember one SB he didn't even travel with the team and blamed it on the Stomach Flu.. .Care to make a wager on whether that happened at a Super Bowl? :snicker2:

[Dr. Lecter]

How about 2 wagers?

[The_Philster]

How about 2 wagers?:hi5: I just watched the game last weekend that he missed because of a 104 degree fever...and it certainly didn't look like a Super Bowl

[wchutalkinboutwillis]

:hi5: I just watched the game last weekend that he missed because of a 104 degree fever...and it certainly didn't look like a Super Bowl
I've been away for a few days and haven't read through this thread, but the last two posts have really struck a chord. I remember the game vividly. If it's the player and the game I think it is. I recall the Bills tying it up late in the game after Jimbo left and returned upon receiving a cortizone shot to his throwing shoulder. I think it was Thurman who tied it up after taking a dump off over the middle. I know I should MYOB but that game has nagged me for years. All I could think about was one of our top 3 players lying in bed back in Buffalo while the rest of the team battled without fear. Can I get some action on this bet??

[chernobylwraiths]

Murders or not, OJ was the very best player in Bills history as far as I can see. Of course my father who had season tickets in the old War Memorial days would say that Cookie was the best player he ever saw.

[juice]

Care to make a wager on whether that happened at a Super Bowl? :snicker2:
How about 2 wagers?
:hi5: I just watched the game last weekend that he missed because of a 104 degree fever...and it certainly didn't look like a Super Bowl
I've been away for a few days and haven't read through this thread, but the last two posts have really struck a chord. I remember the game vividly. If it's the player and the game I think it is. I recall the Bills tying it up late in the game after Jimbo left and returned upon receiving a cortizone shot to his throwing shoulder. I think it was Thurman who tied it up after taking a dump off over the middle. I know I should MYOB but that game has nagged me for years. All I could think about was one of our top 3 players lying in bed back in Buffalo while the rest of the team battled without fear. Can I get some action on this bet??Who voted for Bruce as the all time great Bill, Bruce was having dinner with his Agent instead of lying in bed back in Buffalo.. OK if it wasn't a SB, Wasn't that a game that was criticle for the team to make the Playoffs?

Bruce was good but I wouldn't say he was an all time great.. Reggie White wasn't an All Time Great in GB and he was the man.. Bruce can get Greatest defensive Bill but no way is he the Best to ever play in Buffalo.

Bruce kinda hurt his Legacy by playing himself in DC and hanging around too long just trying to break records.. He looked like he shouldn't have even been in the League still his last couple of years with Washigton.

[chernobylwraiths]

I've been away for a few days and haven't read through this thread, but the last two posts have really struck a chord. I remember the game vividly. If it's the player and the game I think it is. I recall the Bills tying it up late in the game after Jimbo left and returned upon receiving a cortizone shot to his throwing shoulder. I think it was Thurman who tied it up after taking a dump off over the middle. I know I should MYOB but that game has nagged me for years. All I could think about was one of our top 3 players lying in bed back in Buffalo while the rest of the team battled without fear. Can I get some action on this bet??

As much as I thought Bruce always was a "me" player in his career, I would never for a second think that he took that game off. Bruce was all about the national stage, why would he take off a game where he would get it? I also don't blame him for not taking a flu shot. I would be willing to bet that there are a lot of people here who know someone who had a flu shot who got the flu. It happened, I could care less about it.

[chernobylwraiths]

Who voted for Bruce as the all time great Bill, Bruce was having dinner with his Agent instead of lying in bed back in Buffalo.. OK if it wasn't a SB, Wasn't that a game that was criticle for the team to make the Playoffs?

Bruce was good but I wouldn't say he was an all time great.. Reggie White wasn't an All Time Great in GB and he was the man.. Bruce can get Greatest defensive Bill but no way is he the Best to ever play in Buffalo.

It was the playoff game in Pittsburgh. He had the flu.

[wchutalkinboutwillis]

Who voted for Bruce as the all time great Bill, Bruce was having dinner with his Agent instead of lying in bed back in Buffalo.. OK if it wasn't a SB, Wasn't that a game that was criticle for the team to make the Playoffs?

Bruce was good but I wouldn't say he was an all time great.. Reggie White wasn't an All Time Great in GB and he was the man.. Bruce can get Greatest defensive Bill but no way is he the Best to ever play in Buffalo.

Bruce kinda hurt his Legacy by playing himself in DC and hanging around too long just trying to break records.. He looked like he shouldn't have even been in the League still his last couple of years with Washigton.
Actually, it was the playoffs. In addition, I am usually never vocal about it but when I step outside my Kelly jersey and completely disregard the fact that I am a diehard Bills fan, I truly consider Bruce Smith to be an all around better DE than Reggie White (may be RIP) was. Not a better "team player". Not better in "front of a microphone". Not as "likeable". But a better Defensive End who stuffed the run, chased QB's, crunched QB's, tripped up receivers behind the line of scrimmage better than any guy at his position had ever done. The guy had it all. Bruce will be much more appreciated the day he retires in a Bill uniform. Perhaps a throwback??

[Dr. Lecter]

Bruce kinda hurt his Legacy by playing himself in DC and hanging around too long just trying to break records.. He looked like he shouldn't have even been in the League still his last couple of years with Washigton.

That has nothing to do with his ability or what he did in Buffalo.

And OJ sucked his last year or two as well.

And calling Bruce good, but not an all-time great really hurts your credability. <!-- / message -->

[Meathead]

:hi5: I just watched the game last weekend that he missed because of a 104 degree fever
You really should take care of that.

Next time I recommend a condom and antibiotics.

[bleve]

Cookie Gilchrist was a better all around back than anyone. He was mean, unstoppable, great receiver, and a gamer. Sorry He was the best back the Bills ever had.

Best player, however may be Elbert Dubenion. He may have salvaged the AFL, and with it the Bills franchise. His speed brought a new element to the game, and his rookie TD mark has only been surpassed this year by Lee.

[SABURZFAN]

Heck, Billy Jo Hobert didn't even need the playbook.


yeah...and you see where that got him too.

[The_Philster]

And calling Bruce good, but not an all-time great really hurts your credability. <!-- / message -->Look at juice's posts...just the ones in this thread shattered whatever credibility he might've had..Bruce was with his agent? :rofl:

Bruce didn't beef about the contract until late summer...Kelly got a gentleman's agreement that something would be worked out with his after that upcoming season...Bruce wanted the same thing

[Bills 4 life]

1. oj simpson
2. jim kelly
3. bruce smith
4. thurman thomas
5. andre reed

[juice]

Look at juice's posts...just the ones in this thread shattered whatever credibility he might've had..Bruce was with his agent? :rofl:

Bruce didn't beef about the contract until late summer...Kelly got a gentleman's agreement that something would be worked out with his after that upcoming season...Bruce wanted the same thingPhil, I carried you and this lame thread.. for me not to have any credibility you sure do spend alot of time trying to proove me wrong.

Why is Bruce Smith even an option on this poll.. OJ and Kelly are the only real contenders here and I think we've established that Kelly, if he was as GREAT as you claim, should've won 1 of 4 SBs.

In reality 0-4 makes Kelly a bigger choak artist than McNabb. Kelly was only above average and maybe top 15 in the League History at the QB position.. Top 15 doesn't make you Great in this League, especially with no SB ring.

[mysticsoto]

I know it's early, but do we think any "current" Bills are capable of entering the best Bills of all time list in the future? Who could possibly be likely candidates? Spikes? McGahee? Evans?

One name I haven't seen much here is Steve Tasker...is he in anyone's top 5? Top 10? What about Darryl Talley?

[Dr. Lecter]

Phil, I carried you and this lame thread.. for me not to have any credibility you sure do spend alot of time trying to proove me wrong.

Why is Bruce Smith even an option on this poll.. OJ and Kelly are the only real contenders here and I think we've established that Kelly, if he was as GREAT as you claim, should've won 1 of 4 SBs.


Why is Bruce an option????

Are you serious?

Two time Defensive player of the year. A dominant Defensive End. A man who could change the game by himself. One of the greatest athletes at 260+ pounds I have ever seen. And he is the alltime sack leader. Even if you take away his extra couple of years in Washington, he would be #2.

[The_Philster]

You prove yourself wrong with a good chunk of your posts...I've just amused by it myself..also trying to educate you a little since it's obvious you don't know much about the NFL if you can write off 4 consecutive AFC Championships so easily

[juice]

You prove yourself wrong with a good chunk of your posts...I've just amused by it myself..also trying to educate you a little since it's obvious you don't know much about the NFL if you can write off 4 consecutive AFC Championships so easilyLets stay with the 4 consecutive AFC-Champs.. Three of the players in you poll played on those teams along with Andre Reed, and Biscuit Bennet, and D. Tally etc. etc., won 4 AFC-Ch. rings and will forever be remembered for Being 4XSB Losers.

All the tealent on those teams and not one SB title.. it makes me think that these guys were a great unit to stay so close to the top for soo long.. and none of these guys were as great as the team effort that got them to the SB.

OJ was Great with alot less Talent at other positions and alot less Ws in the Win column.. Even though He was never able to beat the Phins in the '70s he's thought of as an all time League great and a Winner - Kelly and crew while able to win 4 consecutive AFC Rings will never shake the stigma of being the only players in history to go to 4 straight SBs and in each one leaving the venue as a Loser.

[Dr. Lecter]

How is OJ a winner and Kely and crew not?

It is worse to never to get to a Super Bowl than it is to go an lose.

BTW, will you at least admit that OJ had a great O-line and fullback?

[Dicknoze69]

In terms of pure football skills, the winner is OJ hands down.

However, if you include intangibles, Kelly is the winner.

(Besides, I'd rather not have our franchise's best player be an unconvicted killer)

[wchutalkinboutwillis]

I'm of the opinion that this poll is very unfair. Not complaining, but just studying the fact that 4 of these belong together, one of these things is not quite the same. Kelly, Reed, Thomas, and Smith are all of the same era. O.J. came from a much, much different time and place. Not so much about the game changing alot, but more about the fans getting older...... and younger.
I was a snot nosed kid when OJ was in his prime. I was a snot nosed teenager the first time I heard Van Miller talk about Jim Kelly, Thurman Thomas, Andre Reed, and Bruce. Needless to say, I quickly forgot about Juice who was off to warmer weather and better looking blondes with long necks. :oops:
Point being: I've seen OJ and I've heard OJ, but I have lived with Kelly, Thomas, Reed, and Smith.
Quick, unfounded assumption/conclusion: If you were born in the 60's or before, you voted for OJ, if you were born in the 70's or later, you voted for the others.
PS- If you thought OJ was guilty, you may have voted for the "others" as well.

[juice]

I'm of the opinion that this poll is very unfair.I'm feelin' wchutalkinboutWillis.. Kelly played with other HoFers on offense.. an early version of the "Big Three", Bruce Smith and that defense was the most dominant unit of the '80s.

Oj played on an offensive unit with an excellent run blocking line.. and faced defensive schemes each weekend that were designed to do one thing, Stop Oj.

Not even the Steel Curtain could accomplish this feat.

[Dr. Lecter]

Nobody is denying that OJ was great Juice.

[TedMock]

Nobody is denying that OJ was great Juice.

Exactly. We all acknowledge that OJ was great. I just think he's being given more credit while Kelly is being discounted unfairly. Yes, OJ was the primary weapon in an era that threw the ball far less than they did during Kelly's time. Yes, Kelly lost 4 super bowls, but he also got there, quite often being the leader of many wins. He by no means choked in those super bowls. They weren't statistically good games, but you never see him choking when you go back to watch. OJ is a top 5 RB of all time, but he had the best OL and one of the best blocking backs in the game. The defense knew OJ was getting the ball and he still succeeded. Often on his own greatness, often with assistance from that great line and Jim Braxton. Top 15 on all time QB list most certainly qualifies as great. He is in the hall of fame after all, and the writers don't generally like him. Vic Carrucci being the exception, of course. As for our "great" defense during the glory years: Here are the total defensive ranks during our super bowl run...

1990 - 11
1991 - 27
1992 - 13
1993 - 28

OJ is great, so is Kelly. It really is a tough call in my opinion. To hammer the guy primarily responsible for some of our best football teams is a little unfair.

By the way...I voted for OJ

[TheBrownBear]

Kelly is probably the greatest "Bill" of all-time since he was the face of the franchise during the Super Bowl years. But I think OJ was the best player ;followed by Bruce Smith and then Kelly in that order.

[Oaklandraider]

OJ had to pick him hes one of the greats.

[chernobylwraiths]

OJ DID have a HOFer blocking for him in Joe D for some of those years. I think he had a very good line, but not a great line. When ESPN did a poll of the 50 best players in NFL history, OJ made the list, and this was AFTER everyone thought he was a murderer. Kelly didn't make the list. Kelly is thought of as maybe one of the top 20 QBs of all time. OJ is thought of as one of the top 5 backs of all time, and I think there are a heck of a lot more RBs than QBs to choose from. I don't think you can discount the fact that just because we are older and saw OJ play that we automatically think he is better. He WAS a special player (as was Kelly). We saw both, and many will objectively say that OJ was better.

[wchutalkinboutwillis]

OJ DID have a HOFer blocking for him in Joe D for some of those years. I think he had a very good line, but not a great line. When ESPN did a poll of the 50 best players in NFL history, OJ made the list, and this was AFTER everyone thought he was a murderer. Kelly didn't make the list. Kelly is thought of as maybe one of the top 20 QBs of all time. OJ is thought of as one of the top 5 backs of all time, and I think there are a heck of a lot more RBs than QBs to choose from. I don't think you can discount the fact that just because we are older and saw OJ play that we automatically think he is better. He WAS a special player (as was Kelly). We saw both, and many will objectively say that OJ was better.
O.J. was a great running back and for anyone to question this would be insane in the membrane. Speculation and being subjective, as opposed to objective, is what makes this thread interesting. I think there are so many factors that are considered when one ponders: "Who is the greatest?" You ask yourself the questions: When did he play? What position did he play? Who played with him? How many wins did they have? Was he a leader? Was he ever in a murder trial? (no joke, it has influence.) In this case, I think it really ends up being a personal decision motivated by emotion. I've seen a lot more of Jim Kelly and Bruce Smith than I have of OJ. The team they played on won a lot of games throughout those years and I had a lot of great times watching them. I'm hoping that in 10 years from now I'll be saying that JP Losman, Willis McGahee, and Takeo Spikes were the best Bills to ever play the game.

[G. Host]

I know it's early, but do we think any "current" Bills are capable of entering the best Bills of all time list in the future? Who could possibly be likely candidates? Spikes? McGahee? Evans?

One name I haven't seen much here is Steve Tasker...is he in anyone's top 5? Top 10? What about Darryl Talley?

How about top 1? I voted for other for he is the absolutely best player at his position in league history and none of the other players mentioned were best in league history at their position.

[juice]

The responses in this thread indicate that a lot of people are not old enough to remember O.J. Simpson's playing days. Although he is a reprehensible human being and will eternally burn in hell, he is, hands down, bar none, the greatest football player ever to don a Bills uniform. He was underutilized and almost completely ignored early in his career, on horrible teams, until Lou Saban came along and made him the focal point of the offense. He was unbelievable, a combination of speed and power with great hands, and could glide like a gazelle in the open field.
BTW, I'm looking forward to Willis McGahee getting back his "second gear". His running style reminds me a lot of O.J.'s and he has the chance to be special.Good post.. You don't have to "Worship the Man" in order to "Respect the Player"

I call them the "80s babies" Too young to get a taste of the Juice.

I think Willis can be the J. Lewis type back, one of a few that has the ability to get into Club 2000.