Why isn't anyone concerned over the loss of Pat Williams?

[OpIv37]

I know Edwards played a lot last year, but he primarily played passing downs. The truth is that he's probably a slight upgrade as a pass rusher- the only QB in the league slow enough to get sacked by Williams is Drew Bledsoe. But he's so much smaller than Williams. No one was able to run against our D because Pat and Sam took up so much space. There is NO WAY that Edwards or Anderson will be able to hold their ground the way Williams did. We already know that Schobel is weak against the run to the outside. We can't expect the LB's and DB's to cover the run for the entire defensive line- Sam is the only true run-stuffer we have.


If Milloy and Vincent can both stay healthy, our pass D will be as good or better than it was last year, but teams will be able to run against the Bills this year. Everyone says "well our D only lost one player", but the loss of that player basically opens up a whole line of attack that wasn't available to opposing offenses last year. It won't be like the first half of '02 when we gave up 300 yards/game, but don't expect a top 5 defense again.

[Marvelous]

I expect 2-3 neggs as usual whenever i shed my oppinion on Pat.
-First off it's not Edwards & Anderson, it's Ron Edwards & Sam Adams. If you happen to have any games on tape theres a good chance of seeing Edwards in action. He is a playmaker. Pat Williams is a great clogger but that's all he is. IMO we will be fine. Schobel & Kelsay are also an above average DE run stoppers. I expect only a minimal dropoff and if that's the case then the team is better off with the saved $........

[ryven]

Ron Edwards
Height: 6-3
Weight: 320


Pat Williams
Height: 6-3
Weight: 317


they look to be about the same size to me

[ryven]

The biggest thing Pat had going for him is experience and no one can doubt that pat is a underrated DT in this league.

[Bill Brasky]

haven't you noticed. once a guy leaves, everybody becomes a player hater. happens everytime.

[Decadeofthe90's]

Actually, I think our D-Line has improved.....Don't get me wrong, Big Pat is one of the best DTs in the NFL, but the way I look at it is Big SAM is still one of the best at his position, I think Schobel improved in his running game from past years and Kelsay got better each week, so he has a full season under his belt....so just with those 3 playing this year will be an improvement from last year........Not to mention one of the sickest linebacker core and backfields in the league. Who was I talking about again.....

[Jan Reimers]

I would ask, Why don't people think that Edwards and Anderson can take Big Pat's place? Edwards is a big, developing player with quite a bit of experience who played very well last year. Anderson is a tough, blue collar guy who was a 3rd round pick and who Krumrie really likes.

At some point, a team has to replace its older guys with some young blood.

Why do we become so negative everytime a young player moves up to replace an aging, overpaid one?

[ryven]

haven't you noticed. once a guy leaves, everybody becomes a player hater. happens everytime.


I dont hate Pat but he is gone why worrie will that bring him back. I believe Edwards or Anderson will be fine at DT.

[ryven]

I would ask, Why don't people think that Edwards and Anderson can take Big Pat's place? Edwards is a big, developing player with quite a bit of experience who played very well last year. Anderson is a tough, blue collar guy who was a 3rd round pick and who Krumrie really likes.

At some point, a team has to replace its older guys with some young blood.

Why do we become so negative everytime a young player moves up to replace an aging, overpaid one?

:posrep:

[mysticsoto]

Why is it that people never want to give anyone else a chance. Ron Edwards has played very well and was actually in alot last year! PW was only going to get older and tired quicker. In truth, what we lose in run stuffing, we gain in pass rushing. So maybe rushing the opposing QBs more will gain our secondary more interceptions! Not that I think Ron Edwards will have trouble handling/stuffing the run. 320 lbs is nothing to sneeze at.

[colin]

pat was my favorite bill, i will miss him much more than most fans.

that said tho, i think with adams still there (a true specialist and massive force in the middle), we lose a very good all rounder, but still have good all rounders to rotate into our D line. Our LE position was the big concern on D last year, and besides the fact that we can't really blow up 3rd and long, we have had really solid play from our D line (we were still top 10 and sacks, and overall the best i'd say).

so we lose a great player in pat, but we have other young guys who are improving who can do what he does, perhaps not as well yet, but they can do the job.

it's different than us losing milloy and vincent last year, becase we have no one else who can do what they do, not even close (assuming mcgee is a corner and vincent is a FS).

our d will be dominant again

[Bill Brasky]

I would ask, Why don't people think that Edwards and Anderson can take Big Pat's place?

Edwards is a big, developing player with quite a bit of experience who played very well last year.

Anderson is a tough, blue collar guy who was a 3rd round pick and who Krumrie really likes.

Somebody on the other side of the fence might argue that neither of those points prove anything, though.

Name one great thing Edwards did last season that made him stand out in anybody's head as a sufficient replacement for a proven guy?

I think that is why some may not have confidence in him.

Your point on Anderson -- big deal if he is blue collar? There are tons of guys in the league described as "blue collar" riding the bench or out of the game all together. And it doesn't matter who the coaches like in every situation... if it was like that 100% the league would be full of Drew Bledsoes.

However, I could really care less. I think/hope Edwards can fill PW's shoes... I just wanted to play devil's advocate :snicker:

[Jan Reimers]

You 're right. Edwards and Anderson are going to suck, we cannot possibly win without Big Pat, and we should bring back Smith, Wright and Hansen to man our defensive line because none of these young guys are ever any good.

Why the HELL do people think we drafted Edwards and Anderson as high as we did if we planned to let them rot on the bench until Williams was playing with a walker?

[Historian]

At some point, a team has to replace its older guys with some young blood.



Exactly. Pat was getting a little long in the tooth. As good as he was, I think the defense can take a hit there. It's only one guy, with some pretty capable ones in reserve.

Our D will be fine.

[Tatonka]

i have no worries that edwards and anderson will do fine replacing pat.

[Jan Reimers]

Exactly. Pat was getting a little long in the tooth. As good as he was, I think the defense can take a hit there. It's only one guy, with some pretty capable ones in reserve.

Our D will be fine.
Yeah, the secret of good personnel management often entails letting a guy go before he starts to die on the field right in front of your eyes.

[OpIv37]

Why all this confidence in Anderson? I watched every game last year, and I'll admit I don't analyze the personnel on every play, but I don't remember seeing him play even one defensive down. If he did, he did nothing worthy of attracting attention from the announcers. Edwards has some experience, and if he truly is that big, it makes me feel a lot better (for some reason, I thought he was a lot smaller than Pat). Sam Adams is amazing and doesn't get enough credit for what he does, but Anderson is a complete question mark.

Schobel improved on interior runs, but he doesn't have the footspeed to catch RB's when they bounce the run to the outside. The reason it didn't hurt us too bad last year was because we knew they couldn't run up the middle against Sam and Pat so our LB's could cheat to the outside on run situations.

[DaBillzAhDaShiznit]

To state that nobody is concerned with the loss of Pat Williams is just not accurate. I would bet that the DT undertackle spot is one of the top 3 concerns for almost any knowledgable Bills fan right now.

I do think however that the DT's we have on our roster are good enough to maintain an excellent defense.

WIth additional reps in practice, Edwards and Anderson will look better than they have in the past.

I will be among the first to scream for Dline help; but until we see if these guys can get it done; I am optimistic.

[Jan Reimers]

Anderson was a 3rd round pick from a good program - Ohio State - who is known as a tough, gritty guy who Krumrie really seems to like. Many of the draft services seemed to like him, too.

He didn't play much last year, which seems to be Krumrie's MO. I just have enough confidence in our player personnel people and our coaching staff to think we drafted a quality player.

[Michael82]

I would ask, Why don't people think that Edwards and Anderson can take Big Pat's place? Edwards is a big, developing player with quite a bit of experience who played very well last year. Anderson is a tough, blue collar guy who was a 3rd round pick and who Krumrie really likes.

At some point, a team has to replace its older guys with some young blood.

Why do we become so negative everytime a young player moves up to replace an aging, overpaid one?
Great post. I couldn't have said it any better myself. :bf1:

[TedMock]

I'm feeling very confident in Edwards after how well he played last season. I remember feeling the same way about Pat Williams. In 1999 he was essentially in the same role as Edwards as the primary backup, and in 2000 he often played along side big Ted Washington where he really became noticed. Anyway, Pat is actually a tacking machine for a DT, so I don't see Edwards getting the same number of tackles. I do see Edwards plugging holes just as well, and being better on passing downs. Pat Williams was definitely one of my favorite players, but that's the nature of the beast.

I also like the fact that Edwards had his best game in a close game against Miami. 4 tackles and 2 sacks in a 20-13 game is pretty sweet for a DT. The downside is that his 4 sacks all came in the first half of the season. That's a little concerning.

Consider these things. PW had 32 tackles and 2.5 sacks in a similar role in 1999. Edwards had 21 tackles and 4 sacks in 2004.

Edwards was drafted in 2001 and had 15 tackles in 7 games. He proved to be a player in 2002 when he had 68 tackles and 2.5 sacks with 3 forced fumbles as a full time starter. I remember people at the bar I used to go to all saying that this guy is going to be a player. In 2003 he was IR'd in week 5. Last year, none of us knew if he'd fully recover from his shoulder injury. Also, having Sam Adams in the mix along with Edward injury, he became a somewhat forgotten man. He responded in rotation with 21 tackles and 4 sacks in a rotation role. I think he's proved that he can play.

[buffalofan19]

Here is why I am concerned about the whole "replace with the young blood" idea. First of all Pat Williams isn't that old (30 or 31, not extrememly young but not ancient either). Second, teams replace older players with younger ones when they are in rebuilding periods. Donahoe and Mularkey have stated that the Bills are not in one right now, so the whole "Anderson and Edwards need to get experience" notion doesn't fly with me. The Bills are trying to get into the playoffs here, and therefore don't have the room to sit there and hope some young and relatively inexperienced guys pan out (then again, they are doing the same thing at quarterback). If they decided that this was a rebuilding year, then fine, I'd say let Williams go and try to develop the young guys, but they are not. They are trying to be a contender, and this is not the best way to do it. There is way too much risk.

Let me make a Sabres' analogy. A few years back (2001-2002 I think), goaltender Dominik Hasek left the Sabres for Detroit. The general thinking among fans was "Oh well, the Sabres will do fine. They have the #1 ranked defense in the league [which they did at the time] and a solid young goaltender in Martin Biron". They ended up missing the playoffs by quite a big margin, because of inconsistent goaltending. Now Hasek played a much bigger role with the Sabres than Williams did with the Bills, but the same line of thinking was still there. And boy was it wrong.

[TedMock]

Anderson is only coming in as a rotation guy, so he'll get experience along with a couple of other guys. Edwards started every game in 2002 and was moved to the primary backup, due to the Sam Adams signing, in 2003 before his shoulder injury. He came back very well last year. I don't think he needs experience at all. I think the coaches just feel that he's now got some experience, and he's ready to be the guy. We won't really know until the season gets underway, but he's played well as a starter, and as a backup so far.

[Jan Reimers]

Don't mean to quibble, bf19, but Big Pat isn't "30 or 31." He'll be 33 in October. As I said before, good personnel people know when to replace aging guys with younger guys, and not to break the bank on players who are starting to decline.

[Philagape]

Was this what it was like when we lost Ted Washington? Were people worried about starting an inexperienced Pat Williams then? He turned out OK.

[ryjam282]

I don't really expect too much of a drop off when it comes to Edwards. When he is in there I think things will be similar. Not the same by any means but not terrible. When it comes to Anderson, I am not so sure. I don't really have a gauge on the guy as of yet and I guess that remains to be seen. He will be the key to the whole line IMO. Adams and Edwards will not be able to play every down so when Anderson is in there it will be key for him to clog up blockers and let the LB's do there jobs.

[Voltron]

Edwards


Stats TCKL SOLO ASST SCK SCK YDS FF INT YDS AVG TD LONG PD
2004 21 12 9 4.0 24.0 0 0 0 0.0 0 0 1



Williams

Stats TCKL SOLO ASST SCK SCK YDS FF INT YDS AVG TD LONG PD
2004 53 37 16 2.5 18.5 0 1 20 20.0 1 20 1


Numbers tell the story. Edwards may not be a refined but he can get the Job done.

Sorry I am not sure how to make a table here :sad:

[Historian]

Don't mean to quibble, bf19, but Big Pat isn't "30 or 31." He'll be 33 in October. As I said before, good personnel people know when to replace aging guys with younger guys, and not to break the bank on players who are starting to decline.

You're batting .1000 today Jan. Exactly right.

The problem here in Buffalo is that we became terribly spoiled with the Reeds and Smiths, etc, that played here for a decade and a half.

That simply isn't the way you win in today's NFL, when you also have to manage FA and a cap.

You have to adopt New England's style of management and weigh a heck of a lot more issues than whether a player is good or not. I think we would all love to see Pat still in a Buffalo uniform, unfortunately, that's just not the way you build a contender in this day and age.

[Mahdi]

[QUOTE=OpIv37] We already know that Schobel is weak against the run to the outside. We can't expect the LB's and DB's to cover the run for the entire defensive line- Sam is the only true run-stuffer we have. [QUOTE]



Aaron Schobel was third in the league in tackles for a D-lineman, so he is obviously not weak against the run.

[The_Philster]

haven't you noticed. once a guy leaves, everybody becomes a player hater. happens everytime.yep
You 're right. Edwards and Anderson are going to suck, we cannot possibly win without Big Pat, and we should bring back Smith, Wright and Hansen to man our defensive line because none of these young guys are ever any good. Why the HELL do people think we drafted Edwards and Anderson as high as we did if we planned to let them rot on the bench until Williams was playing with a walker?Now you're overreacting...no one said anything of the sort...but to think these guys are automatically going to step in and replace a productive player like Williams so easily is silly. Edwards has shown flashes and after a year learning under Krumrie, he should be able to show more solid play than flashes...but let's face it..it's very likely there will be some drop off

[pleasesavedrew]

Im not worried cuz our defense is bringing back the other 10 starters

[Jan Reimers]

I'm just glad some of the posters here aren't in charge of player personnel decisions. We wouldn't draft anyone except 1st or 2nd round college superstars, because no other young guy would ever get a chance to play.

We would hang onto every aging player who had ever made a contribution, replacing that player only when he was in obvious decline, and then only with an aging "name" player from another team.

We would never take a chance on a McGahee or a Parrish, because we already have players at their positions.

Of course we would be about $117 Million over the Salary Cap, and our average player's age would be 37.5, but we would never have the headache or uncertainty of watching a young player develop into a star player.

I wonder how our current veterans ever got started in this league?

[Ed]

Im not worried cuz our defense is bringing back the other 10 starters
Exactly.

I loved Pat Williams and I wanted to see him return this season as much as anyone, but he didn't make or break our defense. Plus, it's not like Ron Edwards is some unproven rookie. He's entering his fifth season and is a former starter who only lost his job because we were able to pick up Sam Adams at a great price.

I'm not as concerned about losing Williams as I was about losing Winfield last season and our defense didn't miss a beat. I mean if you had told fans last year that we'd not only lose Winfield, but his replacement, Vincent, and Milloy would end up missing almost half the season people around here would have started flipping out.

We have a great defensive coaching staff, a lot of great defensive players, and some decent depth. Losing one player shouldn't be that big of a concern. When you consider how much rosters change each year for every team, only losing one guy from a championship caliber defense is pretty impressive.

[Bill Brasky]

Aaron Schobel was third in the league in tackles for a D-lineman, so he is obviously not weak against the run.

What should also be pointed out is the fact that PW and SA together worked well as a team and drew many double teams and on name recognition alone were able to intimidate opponents, which made Schobel's job easier (which would attribute to his strong performance). I'm not saying Schobel is a bum -- but he didn't have a stand-out year last year. Solid, but not amazing or jaw-dropping. Now with PW gone other teams will probably now start to focus more on Schobel as the "second best" guy on the DL... so if Edwards is going to go bananas and prove that he is the man, this season is the time to do it.

If you ask me, Schobel has more to prove this year than Edwards.

[Ed]

If you ask me, Schobel has more to prove this year than Edwards.
I don't know about that. This is a contract year for Edwards and I believ he'll be an UFA at the end of the season. If he wants to get paid and be a full time starter, this is his big chance. Schobel has proven to be solid and is here to stay with his new contract last season.

The good news though, is that we should at least expect nothing but Ron Edwards best effort. And from what I've read about the mini-camps, Edwards has shown up in great shape and been approaching the season with the attitude that it's his job to lose and needs to step up.

[jmb1099]

We will miss williams, but edwards played well last year. He is about the same size, a littel quicker, and will have had some time to mature. I loved Pat when he was here and I think he has a couple of good years left in him, but not without injuries. Not to be cruel but football players are really not much different than cars. Sure you can wreck a new one, but the odds a high mileage vehicle will break down more frequently and more severly increase with each passing year. If this is about pure management than this move makes a lot of sense, same as trading in an old car. The problem of course for us as fans (both cars and football) is emotions cloud judgment. The advantage with cars is that we can choose gentle usa and proper maintanence. The human body and football...not so much. It was the right move and I wish Pat all the best.

[OpIv37]

Well, I hope I'm wrong and the rest of you are right. However, if our run D suffers this season, you can guarantee this thread is getting an "I told you so" bump.

[TheGhostofJimKelly]

I will also admit when I am wrong, but I am glad they didn't give him a big contract. I never like to see a DT over 30 get a big contract and then see him decline.

[Jan Reimers]

Well, I hope I'm wrong and the rest of you are right. However, if our run D suffers this season, you can guarantee this thread is getting an "I told you so" bump.
How about if our pass rush and overall pass D are better because of Edwards' quickness and athleticism? Will we see a bump then as well?

[OpIv37]

How about if our pass rush and overall pass D are better because of Edwards' quickness and athleticism? Will we see a bump then as well?

well I won't be the one bumping it :couch: , but of course I don't have exclusive rights to the "I told you so" bump, so feel free....

[Ed]

Well, I hope I'm wrong and the rest of you are right. However, if our run D suffers this season, you can guarantee this thread is getting an "I told you so" bump.
A simple I told you so is not really fair to say though. Who would you not have signed or cut in order to keep Pat Williams? I don't remember the exact details of his contract, but I'm pretty sure it was a lot more then we gave to Holcomb, Anderson or Gandy. And if I'm nost mistaken, we're only a million or so under the cap right now.

[OpIv37]

A simple I told you so is not really fair to say though. Who would you not have signed or cut in order to keep Pat Williams? I don't remember the exact details of his contract, but I'm pretty sure it was a lot more then we gave to Holcomb, Anderson or Gandy. And if I'm nost mistaken, we're only a million or so under the cap right now.

we didn't have the cap to re-sign Williams- that's not the point. The point is that in several threads, numerous people seemed to completely dismiss the loss of Pat and what it means for the defense as a whole. I'm saying that the D-line is an area of concern without him, and other people are saying they aren't worried about it.

[AndreReed83]

I'm not concerned because I have no control over this football team, what decisions they make, and how they play. So, why worry over something I don't factor in?

[The_Philster]

I'm not concerned because I have no control over this football team, what decisions they make, and how they play. So, why worry over something I don't factor in?cause some of us have invested our hearts and souls into the team...that's what most fans I've known do

[AndreReed83]

cause some of us have invested our hearts and souls into the team...that's what most fans I've known do

I absolutely love this team too. I love when we win and I hate to see us lose. They have been a big part of my life but I just don't feel like I should worry over how this team will do, especially when a lot of that hinges on player signings and releases that I have no control over.

[The_Philster]

I absolutely love this team too. I love when we win and I hate to see us lose. They have been a big part of my life but I just don't feel like I should worry over how this team will do, especially when a lot of that hinges on player signings and releases that I have no control over.Well if that works for you, cool..a lot of us aren't wired that way is all I'm saying

[Devin]

Bills are a huge part of my life, and have been for years.

Ultimatley I dont worry for two reasons:

1. Ron is a better pass rusher then pat and with some development and starting a full season I think he will season into a great DT. Not to mention we have big Tim Anderson right behind him and that kid is a mammoth DT.

2. 1 DT doesnt make our D. Truth be told if losing Pat means we start losing games, our D wasnt near as good as we thought it to be.

Dont worry Op I think Edwards will surprise people this year.

[Bert102176]

I think our D is gonna miss him alot but think we can still do an above average but say our defense will at best this year be ranked between 8th and 12th, but hope I'll be wrong and we'll be ranked up there with last years team.

[frank74]

big pat will be missed, but he is getting old and expensive. i really don't worry about edwards' capabilities at all. he may not be a run stopper like PW, but he may be a heckuva pass rusher. who knows, maybe he'll be insane against the run.
i agree with an earlier post that Schobel has to prove himself this year though. i'm not taking anything away from him at all, i just want to see him develop into a force at defensive end by being more of a threat to QBs. Our pass rush needs to step it up this year and hopefully this will be the year.

[mysticsoto]

big pat will be missed, but he is getting old and expensive. i really don't worry about edwards' capabilities at all. he may not be a run stopper like PW, but he may be a heckuva pass rusher. who knows, maybe he'll be insane against the run.
i agree with an earlier post that Schobel has to prove himself this year though. i'm not taking anything away from him at all, i just want to see him develop into a force at defensive end by being more of a threat to QBs. Our pass rush needs to step it up this year and hopefully this will be the year.
Well it'd be nice if Kelsay stepped it up this year. If not, I say let's see what Gauss can do. Seems like our pass rush only comes from Schobel's side. I look forward to having Ron Edwards penetrate through the middle - although I don't think Gray likes that. I think he prefers our DTs to hold ground instead of being the penetrating type that could cause overaggressivenss and could allow a RB to side step a DT and head into LB territory. Although with Fletcher there, I think they should feel safe to attack in this way every now and then.

[Voltron]

Well it'd be nice if Kelsay stepped it up this year. If not, I say let's see what Gauss can do. Seems like our pass rush only comes from Schobel's side. I look forward to having Ron Edwards penetrate through the middle - although I don't think Gray likes that. I think he prefers our DTs to hold ground instead of being the penetrating type that could cause overaggressivenss and could allow a RB to side step a DT and head into LB territory. Although with Fletcher there, I think they should feel safe to attack in this way every now and then.
In a zone blitz the pressure is not always evenly distributed. The reason that Kelsay may be not be pass rushing is because he was supposed to be back for containment.

[Spiderweb]

Ron Edwards
Height: 6-3
Weight: 320


Pat Williams
Height: 6-3
Weight: 317


they look to be about the same size to me

Pat Williams may have weighed in around 317 back in 1998-99, but I'd be willing to bet he weighed a fair bit more the past few years.

[nuklz2594]

Wasn't Pat Williams an undrafted free agent or a very low draft pick? Players come and go, that is what you have a scouting department for. Nobody thought Pat Williams was going to be a star, a coach had to take a chance on him. The experience factor is overrated-the linebackers or safety usually call out the defensive schemes.

[Kal-El]

I believe the reason for the lack of concern over Mr. Williams's departure is the Curse of Lamonica.

With the exception of the aforementioned Darryle Lamonica (and maybe Ron McDole), almost every player who jumped the Bills for another team subsequently had saw his career dwindle. Their star never shone as brightly as it did in Buffalo.

The most recent example of this is Peerless Price.

[mysticsoto]

I believe the reason for the lack of concern over Mr. Williams's departure is the Curse of Lamonica.

With the exception of the aforementioned Darryle Lamonica (and maybe Ron McDole), almost every player who jumped the Bills for another team subsequently had saw his career dwindle. Their star never shone as brightly as it did in Buffalo.

The most recent example of this is Peerless Price.
That's probably mostly true...although Antowain Smith did get a ring...grrrrr! And I guess Ted Washington has done pretty well for himself also.

But you are right. The count of Bills succeeding after Buffalo is far and few between...

[ublinkwescore]

Schobel is one of the best all around defensive ends in the league, he's top 3 in every stat outside of sacks, and he contributes a good number of sacks every year except for last but even 8 sacks is solid. He strips the ball, recovers fumbles, didn't he get an interception too?

I know Kelsay did in preseason - but I could have sworn schobel picked someone off last season.

[Kal-El]

That's probably mostly true...although Antowain Smith did get a ring...grrrrr! And I guess Ted Washington has done pretty well for himself also.

But you are right. The count of Bills succeeding after Buffalo is far and few between...
I forgot about the esteemed Antowain Smith; he is an exception, although somewhat diluted, to the Curse of Lamonica. I think the book may still be out on Mr. Washington.

[Ed]

I absolutely love this team too. I love when we win and I hate to see us lose. They have been a big part of my life but I just don't feel like I should worry over how this team will do, especially when a lot of that hinges on player signings and releases that I have no control over.
I hear what you're saying. I don't worry too much either because I know that the guys in charge know more then us fans, and can at least make a more educated decision on player personell whether it turns out to be good or not.

I think not having any control makes a lot of people worry though. If you're the one calling the shots it's easier to have confidence in those decisions, but a lot of fans get so caught up in it all and have such strong opinions that it makes it hard just to sit back an watch everything unfold without being able to have any input in it. Hence all the worrying and questioning.

[Jan Reimers]

Wasn't Pat Williams an undrafted free agent or a very low draft pick?
Undrafted free agent out of Texas A&M, where Sam Adams was the big star.