Reasons why Bills Defense won't be as dominant in 05'

[Philisophical Troll]

Don't get me wrong this defense still has an abundant amount of talent, and no doubt will have their moments. I'm not sure they will get as many turnovers this year, but should still be able to apply consistent pressure. But as the season progresses and the offenses the Bills face get better, it's hard for me to see this team ranking among the top 5-10 in the league. Here are my legitimate reasons why:

1) Loss of Fat Pat Williams: the bottom line he was the best player on this unit next to Spikes/Clements. He was a destructive force that single handedly took over the game when offensive lineman had to double and triple team him. He opened the door for fletcher and spikes to roam free in the middle of the field. That won't be the case this year, edwards is a far cry from fat pat. And we all remember what happened in 02' when this guy was a starter. Fat Pat couldn't do it without Mount Washington and The Keg won't be able to do it without Fat Pat. There is a reason the Vikings shelled out big dollars for this guy and Bills fans will see why. Anderson/Edwards would have to be flawless to even come close to compensating for his loss, and I doubt that's happening.

2) Bills play much better offensive teams this year: The likes of the chiefs, raiders, falcons, chargers, bengals (with healthy Palmer) etc are a far cry from san fran and cleveland. Also considering the bills still see the juggernaut pats, a vastly improved fins team, and an overhauled jets offense twice....that doesnt' bode well for this unit. Every good defense gives up yards to the good teams, even the 00' Ravens unit was lit up a few times during their historic run. But this schedule is daunting to say the least.

3) 'Fire and ice' are getting old and older: still 2 solid players in malloy and vincent, but they are far from being rodney harrison and roy williams. Expect their age to show this year going up against younger, faster receivers. Teams will be able to find favorable match-ups with speedy slot receivers against them. Could be a major liability, especially if one of them gets hurt again. They've both shown their age, especially last year when they each missed a fair share of the season.

4) Mcgee is a great return man but not a starting corner. He has yet to prove he carry the full time load at that position. Teams aren't stupid enough to throw Nate Clements way too often, so he will definitely have a target on his back until he proves he can be a shut down corner. I'm not sure the Bills have adequate depth either at this position. If Mcgee struggles and they have to play musical chairs at that position it won't be good.

5) Bills still don't have a 2nd player at the DE end position that can be a consistent threat. Schobel is solid, but still a bit overated and overpaid IMO. Denney and Kelsay have show flashes, but also looked pitiful at times. The Bills definitely need help there especially since they already took a huge step back at the DT position with the loss of fat pat. Don't be surpised if Donahoe picks somebody up during this years preseason cuts.

6) Superior running teams proved they could put up big numbers against this unit. Look at what New England and Pittsburgh did against this defense for evidence of that. It's also got to be a concern that AJ Touchy Feely put up gaudy numbers in the air despite having 5 picks and no running game last year. I alluded to the fact the Bills play some juggernaut offensive units this season and it could be a major problem for this team come september.

In conclusion Jerry Gray is a great coordinator and will someday be a head coach IMO. Takeo Spikes is going to have a huge season despite losing his large buddy up front. Nate Clements should also post gaudy numbers in his last season in buffalo. Bottom line: I see this unit making plays and carrying the load early in the season, but once they hit the meat of their schedule they will be exposed similar to the way they were against pittsburgh. Teams might not have much success passing against Buffalo, but that could change dramatically if teams are able to pound the ball up the middle consistently. Expect them to finish between 11th-18th overrall says a philisophical troll.:father:

[1959BillsFan]

At least it isn't the Dallas D. A "3-4" Defense with a 4-3 coordinator. In other words, a "3-4" wanna-be.

[Jan Reimers]

You're just not very knowlegable if you think Pat Williams was our best defensive player other than Clements and Spikes. Then again, we all know that you understand very little about football.

[jmb1099]

When Edwards was called into duty last year I remember him making some excellent plays as well as playing consistently. He is very similar in size to Pat (not much different at all) and faster. It may be a bit premature to say, but this could quite possibly be an upgrade.

As far as the rest of trolls post...
It is obvious that you have nothing to be excited about in cowgirl land this year, so I can understand your infatuation with the Bills. Still I must confess that your misplaced hope in our failure and your ignorant belief that Dallas will be successful underneath the leadership of Drew Bledsoe really lends itself to only one plausible conclusion...you are in fact an idiot.
Best of luck breaking the all time most sacked and most intercepted records this year...should make for some interesting ESPN highlights.

[indianabillsfan]

It seems that Troll's basic argument is that the Bills' defense will drop from 2nd to 11th through 18th because of the departure of Pat Williams. How often was he on the field last year anyway ? 50 % of the snaps ? Edwards was coming in for him every other play and was quite effective. He fails to mention the fact that the other 10 starters return with Edwards as the only new starter. Isn't it quite possible that the younger players (Kelsay, McGee, etc.) will be better this year with more experience from starting last year and a full training camp with the starters' share of reps ? I think so. Also, Milloy and Vincent missed significant time last year and the defense held up well without them and was awesome when they returned. Yes they struggled against the top offensive teams last year like NE and PIT, but so did a lot of other good teams. NE and PIT were in the AFC Championship game for a reason. Buffalo did shut down some decent offenses like the Jets twice (16 and 17 points), St. Louis (17 points), Seattle (9 points). I think the defense will be top 5 again (they didn't do too bad last year after losing an excellent corner, Antoine Winfield) and again will be able to keep the team in almost every game to at least give themselves a chance to win. They have plenty of playmakers and can still create lots of turnovers and scores and short fields for the offense like last year. I think all of that will add up to a pretty darn good defense that we will all be proud of.

[DaBillzAhDaShiznit]

I actually find very little issue with this post, other than the statement that Pat was one of the best players on the field. Although I think we will miss him a bit, I don't think we will be dreadful over the course of the season. At least the Troll put some thought into it and is backing up his statments to a degree. Look again at his post, and be objective. Every team has games where they give up lots of yards. And it usually happens after the first half of the season.
I'm not worried about it because I know that the Bills are a three dimension team. A team that is able to score in all three phases, and is solid all around.
I think our Defense will likely be rated lower than last year, but I don't think it will keep us from being sucessful. Our defense does not need to be #2 to keep us in contention. But the thought that the loss of one player is going to doom us to a pitiful year is not rational.

[SquishDaFish]

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/3830736

Following from above link foxsports.com.....
East Division



:lmao: Dallas Cowboys: We're not sure if he's the best quarterback named Drew on this team, but Drew Bledsoe has been hired to start behind center. Even if the Dallas defense is less doomed than last year, the Cowboys won't win it all because Bledsoe holds the ball longer than Kobe Bryant.

HaHaHa This is why hes posting about the Bills.

[MDFINFAN]

Wow. I can't argue Troll on this one, I too think Pat was significant to your D, Adams has never impressed me. I don't think his departure neccessarily demotes the D to 12-15, but the schedule can...those are his best points. But that can also be said about all of our D's in this division, since we all face pretty much the same competition.

[Meathead]

Numbers 5 and 6 are weak, but the others are reasonable opinions.

[Philisophical Troll]

Leave it to you tools to find fault in my arguments even when I back them up with facts.....I remember the Cowboys were #1 overall in 03, then dropped to 16th last year despite very few changes to the roster.....So keep BILLEVING that you will be dominant despite the fact you lost of your best players up front and toher teams around you have gotten better in the AFC.

[FlyingDutchman]

The thing that gets me, is that this moron talks like he actually watches the games. I bet he did not watch more than 2 games last year. He bases all of his thought on what he thinks will sound good, istead of logic...He talks about being rushed on, first of all, you named two games, heaven forbid they should let up a 100 yard game occasionally, especially with the backs they face in the AFC east....Second of all, the DE position has never been a strong point, so why are you telling us something we know? Its been the same for the last 3 years and look whats happened..top D everytime...and when did kelsay or Denney look pitiful, please tell me some times, since you watch so closely and know so much about the Bills, you should be able to give an example when they looked pitiful....You seem to still basing your moronic thoughts about the bills D on the loss of fat pat....This will have little to no difference on the D whatsoever so get over it! Stop acting like you actually know whats going on with this team, you keep makin bland statements that anyone could make if they read a transaction sheet, picking out only the negatives of the offseason to raise questions about a team you know nothing about. Everyone loses players on O and D every year, it happens, this D will not drop out of the top ten bc of the lost of one player...get a clue...

[Typ0]

I think this is a good post...our defenses ability to rise to the top this season is going to be dependant on two things:

1) Their ability to generate turnovers.

2) Our offenses ability to develop sustained drives that score points.

with these two things...I don't see any drop off at all in our defensive output. If we can't do the two above though, we likely will fall down the line of ranked defenses.

[Philisophical Troll]

The thing that gets me, is that this moron talks like he actually watches the games. I bet he did not watch more than 2 games last year. He bases all of his thought on what he thinks will sound good, istead of logic...He talks about being rushed on, first of all, you named two games, heaven forbid they should let up a 100 yard game occasionally, especially with the backs they face in the AFC east....Second of all, the DE position has never been a strong point, so why are you telling us something we know? Its been the same for the last 3 years and look whats happened..top D everytime...and when did kelsay or Denney look pitiful, please tell me some times, since you watch so closely and know so much about the Bills, you should be able to give an example when they looked pitiful....You seem to still basing your moronic thoughts about the bills D on the loss of fat pat....This will have little to no difference on the D whatsoever so get over it! Stop acting like you actually know whats going on with this team, you keep makin bland statements that anyone could make if they read a transaction sheet, picking out only the negatives of the offseason to raise questions about a team you know nothing about. Everyone loses players on O and D every year, it happens, this D will not drop out of the top ten bc of the lost of one player...get a clue...
Do you honestly think I would be on this site if I didn't have any knowledge of the Bills franchise? I've watched every Bills game for years now, and even if I WAS A BILLS FAN, that ended on week 17 after the disgusting performance by THE ENTIRE TEAM against pittsburghs 3rd stringers in the game that mattered most. I won't likely watch every game this year and beyond, but I will still have a keen interest in this football team as they rebuild in look towards the future.

[Gunzlingr]

Do you honestly think I would be on this site if I didn't have any knowledge of the Bills franchise? I've watched every Bills game for years now, and even if I WAS A BILLS FAN, that ended on week 17 after the disgusting performance by THE ENTIRE TEAM against pittsburghs 3rd stringers in the game that mattered most. I won't likely watch every game this year and beyond, but I will still have a keen interest in this football team as they rebuild in look towards the future.Not only do we think you don't watch any games, we're pretty sure you don't know your head from ass on most subjects.

[Philisophical Troll]

Furthermore this F***** idiot donahoe has destroyed this franchise and tarnished Bledsoe's career. This team should have been where the Patriots are, but no lets dismantle the offense after 02' and sign defensive players who can't show up in the big games. This team should have been a 12 or 13 win team last year as well, but keep feeding off the propaganda coming from Donahoe, modrak and the rest of the tools at one bills drive and believe whatever helps you sleep at night...the bottom line this team is going to a bowl allright....the toilet bowl.

[FlyingDutchman]

Do you honestly think I would be on this site if I didn't have any knowledge of the Bills franchise? I've watched every Bills game for years now, and even if I WAS A BILLS FAN, that ended on week 17 after the disgusting performance by THE ENTIRE TEAM against pittsburghs 3rd stringers in the game that mattered most. I won't likely watch every game this year and beyond, but I will still have a keen interest in this football team as they rebuild in look towards the future.
:bs: :blah:

[Gunzlingr]

Sayonara

[mysticsoto]

Stop answering the P.Troll guys or he won't go away...put him on your Ignore Lists.

[FlyingDutchman]

Stop answering the P.Troll guys or he won't go away...put him on your Ignore Lists.
Yeah hes obsessed with us, its obvious he has no life to be on a Bills site all day, lets just make him feel like the loser he is when hes posting on a bills web site to himself...now hes just tryin to post threads so people answer him...everyone just ignore so he goes back under his rock...:loser:

[FlyingDutchman]

Furthermore this F***** idiot donahoe has destroyed this franchise and tarnished Bledsoe's career. This team should have been where the Patriots are, but no lets dismantle the offense after 02' and sign defensive players who can't show up in the big games. This team should have been a 12 or 13 win team last year as well, but keep feeding off the propaganda coming from Donahoe, modrak and the rest of the tools at one bills drive and believe whatever helps you sleep at night...the bottom line this team is going to a bowl allright....the toilet bowl.

Just when I think you can't say anything more dumb than before, you prove me wrong:shakeno: ....Yeah it was Donahoe that tarnished his career, it had nothing to do with his horrible play, intereceptions, or rediculous amounts of sacks, it was all the fault of the GM....dude...do you actually read what you write?..ok..heres where it gets good...."The Bills should be where the Patriots are." :eek2: umm yeah...the Bills should be right up there with the dynasty team of recent times...Is your crack laced with something?:laughter: You keep contradicting yourself and making rediculous comments...Im done with you and your stupidity, your going on the ignore list for sure after this moronic statement......If you think Bledsoe is so good, then be happy and shut the f*** up...we don't care about that trash, he is no longer on this team....

[John from Hemet]

One thing I dont see anyone mentioning.....

Our offense was HORRIBLE last year....our defense was constantly bailing us out.....

I wonder just how good our defense could be if were were actually playing with a lead and they didn't need to be out there as much?

When you get up by 2 touchdowns...the playcalling from the other team changes....and you have an opportunity to pin your ears back on defense.....

[jmb1099]

One thing I dont see anyone mentioning.....

Our offense was HORRIBLE last year....our defense was constantly bailing us out.....

I wonder just how good our defense could be if were were actually playing with a lead and they didn't need to be out there as much?

When you get up by 2 touchdowns...the playcalling from the other team changes....and you have an opportunity to pin your ears back on defense..... What he said.

[SquishDaFish]

Take your bandwagon Bledsuck following butt to the Dallas board. No matter what moves the team makes im following them all the way not like the halfass fans like you do.

[Bill Brasky]

Furthermore this F***** idiot donahoe has destroyed this franchise and tarnished Bledsoe's career. This team should have been where the Patriots are, but no lets dismantle the offense after 02' and sign defensive players who can't show up in the big games.
:huh:

Donahoe only signed Bledsoe, he wasn't out there making plays for him.

How was the offense dismantled other than getting rid of Peerless because he wanted out anyways?

[indianabillsfan]

Wow, the troll puts out some seriously deranged shnizit. It makes me wonder sometimes if he is being sarcastic and gets off watching everyone go ballistic responding to his crap. He's either pulling our chains or he's mental. He's either a ****** or a genius. I'm ignoring him too as I prefer to have intelligent discussions with others who have some signifcant thoughts on our beloved team.

[MDFINFAN]

Wow, the troll puts out some seriously deranged shnizit. It makes me wonder sometimes if he is being sarcastic and gets off watching everyone go ballistic responding to his crap. He's either pulling our chains or he's mental. He's either a ****** or a genius. I'm ignoring him too as I prefer to have intelligent discussions with others who have some signifcant thoughts on our beloved team.

In his orginal post, what part was BS, maybe the missing Pat, but even that had some merit..but I'd like to see what you thought was bs in that original post.

[Carlton Bailey]

The last thing I'm going to to do is read a post by a Cowboys fan telling me why the Bills won't be good. Here's some reasons the Cowboys won't be good.

1.) Drew Bledsoe
2.) No good receivers except their tight end
3.) Demarcus Ware is overrated as is Spears
4.) Parcells is past his prime
5.) Their secondary still isn't impressive. They have no safety opposite Roy Williams, Terence Newman got destroyed last year, and for some reason, they gave Anthony Henry 30 mill.

[Konyeezie]

Our pass rush will be even better this year and with our starting safeties healthy all year we could have even more turnovers this year than we had last season when we led the NFL in that category.


BTW Pat played only 40% of the snaps last year and got ***** slapped in the Pitt game.

I loved that guy but he wasn't worth the price tag at this point.

[Morgoth]

Our pass rush will be even better this year and with our starting safeties healthy all year we could have even more turnovers this year than we had last season when we led the NFL in that category.


BTW Pat played only 40% of the snaps last year and got ***** slapped in the Pitt game.

I loved that guy but he wasn't worth the price tag at this point.

What category do you think Dallas led the league in? Dallas had 37 turnovers and 22 takeaways. I hope they do better than last year but that still wouldn't be saying much. In contrast Buffalo led the league with 39 takeaways. We had a positive balance of 10. Meaning more takeaways than turnovers. If I missed something that you posted I apologize but you didn't lead the league in s-h-i-t, specifically takeaways.

[LifetimeBillsFan]

What category do you think Dallas led the league in? Dallas had 37 turnovers and 22 takeaways. I hope they do better than last year but that still wouldn't be saying much. In contrast Buffalo led the league with 39 takeaways. We had a positive balance of 10. Meaning more takeaways than turnovers. If I missed something that you posted I apologize but you didn't lead the league in s-h-i-t, specifically takeaways.
I think he was refering to the Bills, not the Cowboys.

[Philagape]

The last thing I'm going to to do is read a post by a Cowboys fan telling me why the Bills won't be good. Here's some reasons the Cowboys won't be good.

1.) Drew Bledsoe
2.) No good receivers except their tight end
3.) Demarcus Ware is overrated as is Spears
4.) Parcells is past his prime
5.) Their secondary still isn't impressive. They have no safety opposite Roy Williams, Terence Newman got destroyed last year, and for some reason, they gave Anthony Henry 30 mill.

I can think of a few more reasons .....
6. Drew Bledsoe
7. Drew Bledsoe
8. Drew Bledsoe
9. Drew Bledsoe
10. Drew Bledsoe

[indianabillsfan]

Well mdfinfan here's your answer. You asked for it and now you've got it. Notice in my post I didn't specifically limit the troll's shnizit distribution to his original post.

1)Edwards is a far cry from Williams...not true...Edwards played half the snaps in 2004 with no significant drop off.

2)How did Williams "singlehandedly take over a game by opening the door for the linebackers to make plays" ??-that is not only contradictory, as many of his statements are, but that is called teamwork. That's what DT's do. And to that end, Williams was rarely dominant. Adams was.

3)How is he so sure the opposing offenses will be much better this year when nobody has even competed this year ?

4)Yes, fire and ice (Milloy and Vincent) are a year older, but who isn't. Like I said before, the defense was solid without them and awesome when they both returned. How does that make them a liability ?

5)McGee hasn't proved he can handle the full time load ? After Vincent went down, McGee started the last 11 or 12 games at corner, even after running up and down the field returning kicks for TD's. When Vincent came back, McGee was so solid that Vincent, a multi-time pro bowl corner, was moved to free safety. The pass defense was solid from beginning to end. McGee more than held his own. I'm sure teams knew about Clements last year too, he wasn't a rookie, you know. He has led the team in interceptions for 4 straight years.

6)The Bills have the same DE's as last year. The defense was top 3 in the league in sacks and top 10 or higher in run defense and top 2 or 3 in pass defense. This was not a weakness last year, why should it be a weakness this year ? The 3 DE's who played almost every snap (Schobel, Kelsay, Denney) are quite experienced but they are all at the point in their career where they are not too young (all under 30 years old) and are in their prime.

7)He states superior running teams, like NE and PIT, proved they can put up big numbers against this defense. The top 2 rushers last year, Curtis Martin and Shaun Alexander, did squat when they played Buffalo ( a total of 3 times ). Like I said in an earlier post, NE and PIT were both in the AFC Championship Game for a reason. They are great TEAMS, not just great running teams.

8)He says the D was exposed against PIT. They had an off game, that's all. They won 6 straight games by an average margin of 20 to 25 points for crying out loud. Turnovers by the D played a huge part in that streak. That kind of streak will come to an end eventually. The D dominates almost the whole year, including Martin twice and Alexander, and suddenly they are exposed as flukes or as being overrated or something because of a bad outing against PIT ? I guess NE was exposed after they lost to MIA in Dec. last year...well, maybe not. Buffalo beat several playoff teams...NYJ, SEA, STL. I'll take the results of the season as a whole to gauge the D, not just 2 or 3 games.

9) He's not sure the D will have as many turnover this year ? How many did fat pat create ? None. He had half a sack and no forced fumbles and no int's and no pass deflections that led to int's and very few qb pressures. I think it is more reasonable to say that with a healthy Milloy and Vincent, and a more experienced McGee, the D can create even more turnovers. Milloy and Vincent have proven over a long period of time that they are ballhawks.

10)Barring an injury to every starter, he's unrealistically imagining a worst case scenario and a decline in every area except pass rush, which, contradicting himself again, pass rush is a huge contributor to turnovers with qb sacks and fumbles and hurried throws that become int's.

11)In his next post, he said he supports his agruments with facts, but I found very few. His original post was mostly opinion, which is fine, but I (and many others) disagree with his opinion mostly because it based on flawed reasoning.

12)What do the Cowboys in '03 have to do with the Bills ? Their roster changed little but the DB's had the injury bug (especially Darren Woodson). The Bills were top 5 in D in 2003 and 2004 with a change or 2 to the starters each year. Now they lost one starter from last year and they are going from elite to mediocre ? Pat is good, but he wasn't that good or that important.

13)Other teams in the AFC are getting better ? Maybe, but look at our division. Pats...lost Bruschi, Ted Johnson, Ty Law. Jets...lost Jason Ferguson and Donnie Abraham. Dolphins...lost Surtain and Sammy Knight and switching to a 3-4 D with Jason Taylor at OLB. Maybe our offense will have an easier schedule this year !

14)He said he was a Bills fan but that ended in Week 17 against PIT. No true Bills fan would bail out after one game, especially after watching them go on the most dominant 6-game streak in team history. Sure, the PIT loss was devastating and heartbreaking, but that's part of being a fan. We don't want fairweather fans rooting for Buffalo only during the good times.

15) He said in a later post that the Bills should be where the Patriots are, which is where only one other team in NFL history has been (the Cowboys in the 90's) as winners of 3 out of 4 Super Bowls and it's all Donahoe's fault that they're not. This is the kind of lunacy I'm talking about. Look at some of his other posts in his profile history and you will see what I'm talking about. He said things like Wilson is insane for not firing Donahoe on the spot after cutting Bledsoe. Well, as it turns out, it's the GM's job to do those things. How many times did the Bills make the playoffs with Bledsoe, despite an elite D in '03 and '04, with Moulds and 1,000 yard plus rushers in McGahee and Henry ? Bledsoe is past his prime, holds the ball too long, is too immobile, and is too turnover prone. In fact, his fumble that was returned for a TD was the winning margin for PIT in that week 17 game he keeps referring to. Yet he is in love with Bledsoe. I know one player doesn't make or break a team, Pat Williams included, but Bledsoe deserves plenty of the blame for the Bills' failures the last 3 years. In a thread about Todd Stuessie he said that Steussie rhymes with "poosie" so he would fit in well on our roster full of pansies. There's more, but I'm starting to get a headache so I'll try to wrap this up shortly.

16)Edwards may not be as stout against the run, but here's a news flash...Edwards is 320, Williams played at 310 to 315 (those numbers are straight from official roster #'s), so Edwards is no featherweight. In addition, with about the same playing time, Edwards had 4.5 sacks to Williams' 0.5, more qb pressures than Pat, and roughly the same # of tackles. I don't see where there is a major dropoff.

17)He posts controversial and demeaning statements about the Bills on a Bills fan forum and he gets angry and acts surprised when others disagree.

I hope this answers your question, mdfinfan. I could go on and on, but he has a lot of posts out there and I have a limited life span. I was not only disagreeing with his posts on this thread but almost every one of his posts in all threads. I put him on my ignore list yesterday so I would not have to be subjected to his lunacy, but I took him off so I could go back one more time to look at his posts for the sake of this response. Now he's back on the ignore list. Goodbye and good riddance says a philisophical indianabillsfan.