Would you get rid of this QB too?

[Judge]

Stats:

269 completions in 452 attempts; 3380 yards; 15 TD's, 17 Int's.

Not very impressive, huh? According to Wys logic, this guy must be a bust, right? Clearly, he didn't help his team win, right Wys?

Well, those were Jim Kelly's stats in 1988.

[DIHARD2]

Butt,Butt,Butt,Butt LOL

GO!!!...BUFFALO!!!...

[Ingtar33]

Better yet...
This QB finished his career with 2 Super Bowl Trophies, and one Super Bowl MVP... in his 10th NFL season (before both of the Super Bowl victories) and after starting all 16 games for an 8-8 team, his stats were

ATT COMP YARDS COMP% TD INT RATE
451 - 242 - 3,253 - 53.7 - 13 - 12 - 68.3

For comparison, this is Bledsoe’s 10th NFL season, in which he put up these numbers for the Buffalo Bills

ATT COMP YARDS COMP% TD INT RATE
610 - 375 - 4,359 - 61.5 – 24 – 15 – 86.0

Can you guess who this QB was?

[Don Cherry]

Plunkett?

[BillsMan80]

Guy by the name of Elway?

[Ingtar33]

nope,
not Plunkett

[Ingtar33]

Yep...
BillsMan80 is correct, John Elway was that QB, who up until his Super Bowl years was an astounding 60ish QBR playoff passer, and in his first 10 seasons, he had racked up a total of 15tds and 17ints in postseason play (and three superbowl losses)

[WG]

Well, that's better than 5 TDs and 12 INTs in post-season play averaging barely over 200 yards per game and costing his team 3 victories and playing horribly in three wins.

I'll also wager dollars to donuts that Elway didn't have the rushing of Henry, the likes of a receiving tandem of Moulds/Price with a rookie phenom WR with the hands of Reed in the wings, Moore and JR for TEs and a RB like Centers either.

Or am I wrong? Let's find out...

Gaston Green as a RB; Career 551 carries, 2136 yards, 3.9 YPA, 6 TDs

WRs: Mark Jackson; he sure had an impressive career...

http://www.football-reference.com/players/JackMa00.htm

opposite...

and Mike Young, even better;

http://www.football-reference.com/players/YounMi00.htm


Fellas, gotta compare apples to apples please.

To whom more is given, more is expected!

Drew will never, with the slight exception of some improvements in the OL, and then only somewhat, have a better team around him. Never. Never has, and never will in this day and age of free-agency. The only way it could improve anymore is for us to have the #1 rusher instead of the #4 and we could have had that if we hadn't passed Drew so much to our detriment. We just aren't going to have the single best skill position player at every position. It isn't going to happen. I dare say that this team's offense has the best collection of talent on it that we've ever had w/ the possible exception of our '90s OL. That may very well change next year.

But our WRs have never been better and have rivaled the league's best tandems over the years. Henry is running as well as any RB could other than his fumbling issues which only cost us one game against Denver vice the 4 or 5 that Drew's INTs cost us. JR and Moore, they were more than adequate and Drew rarely used them anyway with and average of 3.0 catches between them per game. Centers, it just doesn't get any better than him for a receiving RB. He's the standard in the NFL and still going strong in spite of criticism that some want to cut him. He's quietly done everything that the team has asked of him and done it exceptionally well.

Even now the talk is whether Drew will have the same WRs w/ Price gone. Henry will be the same if not better due to getting more carries. Then again, maybe not if we rely on Drew mostly again.

[Ingtar33]

Here's a set of scary numbers for you all to contemplate. These are the numbers for Dan Marino in his 10th NFL season... seems familiar?

ATT COMP YARDS % TD INT RATE
554 - 330 4116 59.6 24 16 85.1

At that point in Danny's career he was a 1 time Super Bowl loser, and had a 5-5 postseason record with 22TDs and 14INTs

Drew has a 4-3 career postseason record with 6TDs and 12INTs (although in fairness to Drew 10 of those INTs came in his first 4 playoff games in which he was 4TDs and 10INTs and a 2-2 record)

[WG]

Again however, he never had a running back who was deemed good let alone excellent or in the top 5 or 10. Again, it is difficult to compare Drew on this team laden w/ all the talent that he had around him to Marino on that '92 squad for Miami.

Mark Higgs was the Phins leading rusher that season posting his best season then w/ 915 yards rushing on 3.6 YPA and only 7 TDs.

Clayton and Duper were Marino's WRs but they were both washed up with Duper in his last season and Clayton in his second to last posting a combined 87 catches for 1,381 yards and 10 TDs.

What was impressive about Marino that year is that of those ~4,100 yards, 1,100 went to the RBs, 700 to the TEs including Keith Jackson, and the other 2,300 or so to the WRs, 4 of them to whom he srpead the ball around w/ 22, 33, 43, and 44 receptions. Unlike Drew who primarily hit Moulds and Price and only went elsewhere when he absolutely had to.

Also, the Phins were 11-5 in spite of not having had a decent rusher or stellar WRs. Their D was good, not great, certainly not better than the way ours had been playing during the last half of the season when Drew was horrible.

[LtBillsFan66]

Funny thing if you watched tonights game is Michaels and Madden explaining that stats don't tell the complete story. So true!!!

There is no doubt that Vick was on tonight - yet his stats weren't anything to write home about. Just made a few big plays and played consistently.

[WG]

Besides, we're not comparing Drew to Marino, are we?

If so, consider this; Over 5% of Marino's attempts ended up as TDs. 3.7% of Drew's have. Career.

[WG]

Originally posted by BillsFanOne
Funny thing if you watched tonights game is Michaels and Madden explaining that stats don't tell the complete story. So true!!!

There is no doubt that Vick was on tonight - yet his stats weren't anything to write home about. Just made a few big plays and played consistently.

I couldn't agree more BFO. So why does everyone hype up yardage and attempts stats for Drew? I ask seriously.

Also, Atlanta didn't win solely due to Vick either. Their STs scored a TD and they likely wouldn't have won, or the game would have been much closer if they had not been able to run against G.B. The combo of their D and the rushing game, an timeless NFL combination for winning, were the basis for their win. Vick being a part of it, not the sole reason for it by any stretch.

[LtBillsFan66]

Originally posted by Wys Guy


Also, Atlanta didn't win solely due to Vick either. Their STs scored a TD and they likely wouldn't have won, or the game would have been much closer if they had not been able to run against G.B.

Right back at ya! :up:

Sometimes is ain't only the QB and OC. Many times the D, ST and turnovers play huge parts.

[WG]

BTW, who posted these very Drew-like numbers as a QB in the NFL who also led his team to a SB win during one of those seasons?

114 for 208 54.8 1730 8.3 18 13
280 for 476 58.8 3768 7.9 22 13
166 for 304 54.6 2070 6.8 16 11
249 for 421 59.1 3564 8.5 28 11
269 for 479 56.2 3282 6.9 13 17

His best season was better than Drew's. The rest are almost a carbon copy.

[WG]

Originally posted by BillsFanOne


Right back at ya! :up:

Sometimes is ain't only the QB and OC. Many times the D, ST and turnovers play huge parts.

Indeed. But the difference is that they allowed the rushing game to get the opportunities w/ 34 carries and Vick didn't throw the game for them. He contributed to the win, not provide an obstacle for the team to have to overcome.

It's all about contributing to wins, not simply getting credit for being popular while the D, STs, and rushing game do all the real scoring work.

[Ingtar33]

Come on man! You've got an excuse for everything. How about this... Kelly only threw for more TDs than Drew twice (once in 89 and again in 91) and had a better QBR than Drew three times (in 89 86.2, 90 101.1, and 91 97.6) over the course of his whole career (compared with Drew's one season here).

[lordofgun]

***SARCASM ALERT***

Payton Manning is 0-3 in the playoffs. He sure does suck!

Brett Favre stunk it up in the second half of the season...Bledsoe looked better! I'd never want Favre on my team. What a loser.

[WG]

Ingtar, are you saying that any of those arguments are invalid? If so, then which ones, specifically?

I mean you're the one comparing a rookie QB to a season vet of 10 years! Is that proper?

Why don't we just compare Carr or Harrington to Drew to make him shine? Is that fair?

I'm not the one w/ the argument for everything. It's those who blindly support Drew as the impetus for this team being 8-8. I said at the beginning of the year, w/ the schedule we have, if we're not 8-8, then something is wrong. My prediction was between 6-10 and 8-8 simply b/c I knew Drew would throw games as he did. That cannot be argued. Is it any coincidence that the easiest teams that we played we beat while the toughest we lost to?

[Dozerdog]

Originally posted by Wys Guy
Again however, he never had a running back who was deemed good let alone excellent or in the top 5 or 10. Again, it is difficult to compare Drew on this team laden w/ all the talent that he had around him to Marino on that '92 squad for Miami.

Mark Higgs was the Phins leading rusher that season posting his best season then w/ 915 yards rushing on 3.6 YPA and only 7 TDs.

Clayton and Duper were Marino's WRs but they were both washed up with Duper in his last season and Clayton in his second to last posting a combined 87 catches for 1,381 yards and 10 TDs.

What was impressive about Marino that year is that of those ~4,100 yards, 1,100 went to the RBs, 700 to the TEs including Keith Jackson, and the other 2,300 or so to the WRs, 4 of them to whom he srpead the ball around w/ 22, 33, 43, and 44 receptions. Unlike Drew who primarily hit Moulds and Price and only went elsewhere when he absolutely had to.

Also, the Phins were 11-5 in spite of not having had a decent rusher or stellar WRs. Their D was good, not great, certainly not better than the way ours had been playing during the last half of the season when Drew was horrible.

You don't like the comparison because of a different team make up and coaching...


Yet you continue to dredge up Bledsoe's career stats when he had running backs like Kevin Faulk, Ron Edwards, a dismal line, No defense, and coaches like horrible Pete Carroll in New England.

Again, different team make up and coaching.

But GM wys would have kept this year's pick and we would have gone to the playoffs with Chris Chandler- and running Henry 30 times a game (and living with his 15 fumnbles- if you extrapilate the extra carries and fumbles per carry)


Stats are for losers

[Ingtar33]

Originally posted by Wys Guy
BTW, who posted these very Drew-like numbers as a QB in the NFL who also led his team to a SB win during one of those seasons?

114 for 208 54.8 1730 8.3 18 13
280 for 476 58.8 3768 7.9 22 13
166 for 304 54.6 2070 6.8 16 11
249 for 421 59.1 3564 8.5 28 11
269 for 479 56.2 3282 6.9 13 17

His best season was better than Drew's. The rest are almost a carbon copy.

That's Mark Rypien... and Drew has passed for more yards (annually) and maintained about that level of proficiency for far longer than Rypien ever did.

[Dozerdog]

Originally posted by lordofgun
***SARCASM ALERT***

Payton Manning is 0-3 in the playoffs. He sure does suck!

Brett Favre stunk it up in the second half of the season...Bledsoe looked better! I'd never want Favre on my team. What a loser.

Favre has what, 8 interceptions in his last 2 playoff games?

He's garbage. :rolleyes:

[WG]

At least those RBs performed in the playoffs allowing "Drew" to have the "wins" and "leading his team to the playoffs" that you say he has. ;)

It sure wasn't Drew who did anyting special in any of those playoff games or v. the biggest games of most of their seasons. All you have to do is go look. It's a black and white issue.

Bottom line: who puts up when the chips are down?

Who plays the best when the level of competition heats up?

This year it was our D as the season wore on and Henry. Bledsoe crapped the bed against the best teams. It really is that simple. No stats, nothing. Just who plays bigger when we play playoff caliber teams.

[WG]

Originally posted by Ingtar33


That's Mark Rypien... and Drew has passed for more yards (annually) and maintained about that level of proficiency for far longer than Rypien ever did.

How many seasons out of 10 has Drew had more than 20 TDs?

How many seasons out of 10 has Drew had fewer than 20 TDs?

How many seasons has Drew tossed more INTs or equal to the # of TDs he's tossed?

[LtBillsFan66]

Originally posted by Wys Guy
It's all about contributing to wins, not simply getting credit for being popular while the D, STs, and rushing game do all the real scoring work.

:up:

We agree again my friend!!! Wow. I didn't know we agreed this much.

So Bledsoe and Gilbride should not take the blame for most of the losses.

Since it is a TEAM effort and the D (Denver, Oakland, Pats) and ST (Jets game 1) didn't help much.

[Ingtar33]

Furthermore, in that one good year of Rypien's he was surrounded by perhaps the best superbowl team in history (#1 NFL in Offense, #1 NFL in Defense).

By the way, incase you forgot, once upon a time I think we were having this exact same discussion, and I recall starting the discussion with the line, stats are meaningless. I usually go through the trouble of looking them up just to highlight the inanity of something like a discussion about how Drew is the source of all that went wrong with the Bills this year.

You don't throw for 4000+ yards and an 86 QBR over the course of a 16 game NFL season unless you've got the goods to win.

Has Drew Got teams to the playoffs before? YES
Has he done this with little to no talent around him? YES
Has Drew lead teams to the Superbowl before? YES
Did Drew loose a Superbowl? YES (however you'll all remember that NE was a huge underdog, and that ego maniac Parcells decided the week leading up to the game was a good time to announce that he was leaving the Pats for the Jets)
Has Drew won AFC championship games? YES

Why would anyone believe that this man will be unable to do the same here?

[Dozerdog]

Originally posted by Ingtar33
Why would anyone believe that this man will be unable to do the same here?

Because these armchair GM's saw him throw some interceptions on TV:lol!:

[Ingtar33]

I really don't have anything else to add to this discussion tonight, just wanted to say that its been fun as always sparing with ya Wys... just figured I should go and get my 200th post out of the way.

[WG]

Originally posted by BillsFanOne


:up:

We agree again my friend!!! Wow. I didn't know we agreed this much.

So Bledsoe and Gilbride should not take the blame for most of the losses.

Since it is a TEAM effort and the D (Denver, Oakland, Pats) and ST (Jets game 1) didn't help much.


Can you please point out some specifics then as to why we lost some games?

How about these: K.C., G.B., N.E. (2), Jets (2), and Oakland.

Instead of simply throwing out gross generalizations, reciprocate and do some analysis and let me/us know what were the game changing plays in those games? Why did the other teams score in them? Why didn't we score more? etc.

[WG]

Originally posted by Ingtar33
Furthermore, in that one good year of Rypien's he was surrounded by perhaps the best superbowl team in history (#1 NFL in Offense, #1 NFL in Defense).

By the way, incase you forgot, once upon a time I think we were having this exact same discussion, and I recall starting the discussion with the line, stats are meaningless. I usually go through the trouble of looking them up just to highlight the inanity of something like a discussion about how Drew is the source of all that went wrong with the Bills this year.

You don't throw for 4000+ yards and an 86 QBR over the course of a 16 game NFL season unless you've got the goods to win.

Has Drew Got teams to the playoffs before? YES
Has he done this with little to no talent around him? YES
Has Drew lead teams to the Superbowl before? YES
Did Drew loose a Superbowl? YES (however you'll all remember that NE was a huge underdog, and that ego maniac Parcells decided the week leading up to the game was a good time to announce that he was leaving the Pats for the Jets)
Has Drew won AFC championship games? YES

Why would anyone believe that this man will be unable to do the same here?

And I seem to have remembered asking plenty of questions that were never answered. How 'bout this; instead of tossing out more gross generalizations, can you please state:

What Drew did specifically to "get his teams to the playoffs?" Which big games in those seasons did the team win of say the most difficult 5 or 6 that Drew contributed to winning more than the other aspects of the team?

Explain how now with more talent around him, he did not perform as well and then expect that same standard to be held to him this upcoming season?

Can you point out Drew's contributions in winning the divisional playoff round and then the AFC CG to "lead his team to the Superbowl?" I mean if he "led them to the SB" then he should have done that via a solid performance of some sort, right? Can you please specify as to what those two performances were and why it was them specifically, again, as opposed to other aspects of team play that got the Pats to the SB?

Who cares as to the excuse as to why he couldn't do any more in the SB than he did at any other time.

[WG]

Originally posted by Dozerdog


Because these armchair GM's saw him throw some interceptions on TV:lol!:

The same as what? I believe that belies this entire conversation. I am not expecting Drew to do anything else here that he didn't do in N.E. The issue is what exactly did he do there. If you say "throw lots of balls for lots of yards and never really put up top numbers for points/TDs", then I agree. If you start to say "lead the Pats to a SB and through the POs", then I have to ask for some supporting evidence for his own personal contributions in those contests and not allow him to take credit for what the D, RBs, coaching, and STs do.

If the above questions ever get answered, then perhaps we can begin clearing this up a bit. ;)

Otherwise, we simply have to rely on pure fan perception based on wishes and hopes and things that never materialized as many say.

[WG]

Originally posted by Ingtar33
I really don't have anything else to add to this discussion tonight, just wanted to say that its been fun as always sparing with ya Wys... just figured I should go and get my 200th post out of the way.

Thanks Ingtar! You too!

I find your insights and assessments invaluable to this site!!!

You are very intelligent and I highly enjoy the info that you provide. I never take anything personally or hold grudges against anyone. Even our most hated posters I seem to get along with. So please do not take any of this as a personal assault or "in your face" argumentation. I only like to engage people especially when I view perceptions as ruling the day over substance. ;)

Have a good rest. I really have nothing further to add anyway. I only float the same arguments that no one ever responds to substantively and specifically. I'd love to engage you possibly on another thread on the topic if you like. Perhaps a debate of sorts just the two of us. I enjoy that type of stuff. I know you have a busy schedule as do I, but hey, it's a loooong offseason, especially since we're the ones doin' the "golfin'!" LOL

Thanks!

[LtBillsFan66]

Originally posted by Wys Guy



Can you please point out some specifics then as to why we lost some games?

How about these: K.C., G.B., N.E. (2), Jets (2), and Oakland.

Instead of simply throwing out gross generalizations, reciprocate and do some analysis and let me/us know what were the game changing plays in those games? Why did the other teams score in them? Why didn't we score more? etc.

I don't have the time or patience.

Jets 1 - When you give up 2 TD returns - the special team is at fauly.
Raiders - When you score 31 but give up 45, you d is in question.

NE - everyone stunk up the show.

KC - everyone contributed to the loss

Denver - Defense and Henry Fumble

There is always more than one reason for losses. Bledsoe cost us a few - maybe...

Bledsoe did more than enough for most...

[WG]

Originally posted by BillsFanOne


I don't have the time or patience.

Jets 1 - When you give up 2 TD returns - the special team is at fauly.
Raiders - When you score 31 but give up 45, you d is in question.

NE - everyone stunk up the show.

KC - everyone contributed to the loss

Denver - Defense and Henry Fumble

There is always more than one reason for losses. Bledsoe cost us a few - maybe...

Bledsoe did more than enough for most...

I guess that's why "stats are for losers", eh?

Again, short-sighted analysis! If Drew hadn't thrown those two INTs that ended up being Jet TDs, then the game wouldn't have even been in O/T!

N.E., yes, but since we didn't use Henry and the offense only put up 7 points, I'd surely say that Drew must bear the brunt of the loss. Especially since the mantra of this team has been "we do better when Drew has the ball in his hands." I guess by your admission then, that isn't true!

K.C. Certainly not true. Henry ran like a champ. The D played as good as we could have expected or even hoped. Drew could not convert simply 2nd and 3s and 3rd and 3s, etc. that should have been easy as pie to do.

Denver, yes, the only game v. one of the toughest 8 games that Drew played well in and was not responsible for the loss.

As to the Raider game, when particularly was it lost? You are completely ignoring Drew's flaws in "allowing 14 of those 45 points" and the most important ones to put us out of the game! B/c as I see it, Drew set up the Raiders on one of his INTs to give the Raiders the ball 1st-and-10 at our 32 to go ahead with their 4th TD. Then, 3 drives later, he tosses a horrible ball that is returned for a TD! On the subsequent drive, he pulls an RJ and is sacked twice in a row on 1st and 2nd downs and then overthrows Moulds to ice the game for the Raiders. And then when we did get the ball back again for a last ditch hope, he tosses yet another INT.

How is that not Drew's fault? It's really simple! If he doesn't throw those INTs and doesn't allow those stupid back to back sacks on what I'm sure the world knew was going to be a pass, then we win! It's that simple.

"I don't have the time or patience."

Then why argue devoid of the facts? Simply for the sake or arguing? I don't get it. If you're going to argue, consider all the facts and bring some of your own to the table. Otherwise it makes no sense. But what you brought above are opinions, and opinions that can be easily refuted to boot.

[WG]

By the way, you are free to answer any of those questions asked prior.

I'll make it easy for ya. Just point out the stats for one single playoff game that Drew was the primary impetus for winning! Just one! Any one. That shouldn't take up too much time, eh.

If you do, all I ask is that you use the entire game and don't simply draw from one single drive or a handful of plays. That's fair, right?

[Andrea1234]

why are we talking about this angin? the season is done and get ready for a better bills season!!!!!!!!!! ahead once more drew is our QB if you dont like it then dont be a bills fan every QB has flaws it comes with the job so get over it and lets stop talking about getting rid of Drew hes our guy hes not going anywhere anytime soon

[LtBillsFan66]

Originally posted by Wys Guy
If you do, all I ask is that you use the entire game and don't simply draw from one single drive or a handful of plays. That's fair, right?

What I do is watch each and every game and come up with my own analysis. I'm not the type of fan that rides the emotional pendulum (i.e. "Drew sucks" after loss or Kevin Thomas challenging Winfield and Clements after 2 good games).

It seems the only way you understand and explain anything is to quantify it with stats.

I'm going by what I SAW all year long. If it can't be viewed with stats and bar graphs - I'm sorry.

Maybe a more objective view will help you see what everyone else around here sees.

I don't throw around "lover" or "hater" terms. I'm not "enamored" with Bledsoe. But he is far better than what you make him out to be. Most people SEE that.

[LtBillsFan66]

Originally posted by Wys Guy


Then why argue devoid of the facts?.

Stats do not mean facts.

[LtBillsFan66]

Originally posted by Andrea1234
why are we talking about this angin? the season is done and get ready for a better bills season!!!!!!!!!! ahead once more drew is our QB if you dont like it then dont be a bills fan every QB has flaws it comes with the job so get over it and lets stop talking about getting rid of Drew hes our guy hes not going anywhere anytime soon

Sound good to me. :up:

[WG]

Again BFO, more totally unsubstantive stuff!

If you don't want to use stats, then fine. Point out specifically w/o stats such as much of what I've done, and generally indicate based on at least some sort of non-ambiguous factual information something to back up your point.

That last post simply says b/c general fan perceptions says Drew is great, so why aren't you believing it. I've laid out in 20 different ways much of why I don't view this.

Your problem is that Drew's INTs or their impact don't seem to matter to the team. There's not a whole lot to say to that. But again, spell things out using no stats if that's what drives your car. Just substantiate your posts with something other that "that's the way we want it to be so it's gonna be that way." Which is all you've done.

Here's a non-stat related fact for you; Drew cost us the Raider game by throwing an INT to Buchanon that was returned for a TD to end our own scoring drive and also allow them to score on the INT for a 14 point swing. Then on the subsequent drive, he took two straight sacks on 1st and 2nd down before overthrowing Moulds on 3rd down.

If he doesn't throw that pick and then we score, we're up by 3 and the onus is on the Raiders to score w/ time running out. Drew had only 2 TDs in that game in spite of putting up over 400 yards. He also had 3 INTs and 5 sacks! Did those help us win?

I think that was HUGE in that game. Do you agree? Or was it an inconsequential set of events? Who was responsible for that pick? Was it a well thrown ball that just got picked due to great D?

Those have nothing at all to do w/ stats. Care to comment? Or does the "Drew's poop doesn't stink" line of argumentation and subsquent implication that I'm a loser for some odd reason take over?

[WG]

Originally posted by Andrea1234
why are we talking about this angin? the season is done and get ready for a better bills season!!!!!!!!!! ahead once more drew is our QB if you dont like it then dont be a bills fan every QB has flaws it comes with the job so get over it and lets stop talking about getting rid of Drew hes our guy hes not going anywhere anytime soon

IDK. I guess b/c it's the offseason and it's slow due to inactivity for the Bills.

Other than that, you'd have to ask the two people who started these threads.

[Andrea1234]

why cant we just move on and get away from this topic? so what we arew 8-8 this season big deal it a big imporvement from 3-13 get over it already god

[LtBillsFan66]

Look at our takeaway stat!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I created a whole thread for it.

You choose to ignore it.

Do you think Drew and Company would score more if they were given more opportunities? (You can't find that answer on espn.com/stats)

How many announcers, coaches, and football philosophers stress the importance of turnovers?

Yes!!!! Drew contributed to some losses!!! I said that a million times!!! You choose to ignore that too!!!! But he is the absolute furthest cause of our problems.

Like the level headed Andrea1234 says " every QB has flaws it comes with the job so get over it and lets stop talking about getting rid of Drew "

[Andrea1234]

i am not level headed im only saying that hes not going anywhere like it or not now lets wait for next season to juged him it was only hes first year here

[LtBillsFan66]

Originally posted by Andrea1234
why cant we just move on and get away from this topic? so what we arew 8-8 this season big deal it a big imporvement from 3-13 get over it already god

'cause fightin's fun!

:punchu:

[LtBillsFan66]

Originally posted by Andrea1234
i am not level headed im only saying that hes not going anywhere like it or not now lets wait for next season to juged him it was only hes first year here

:peace:

[WG]

I disagree. For reasons previously stated.

Would you say it was primarily his fault for losing that Raider game? Or not?

To demand that our D w/ no starters worth a turd other than PW at the beginning of the season and a LBing corps that featured starting Robinson, to expect that unit to do much defensively is wrong. They did what they could and often in spite of what the O did to hurt them.

They played very well down the stretch. Very, and still aren't getting credit for it!

Drew threw key interceptions that resulted in opponent points directly or indirectly on subsequent drives in 6 of our 8 losses and played poorly or only slightly better than poorly in 7 of the 8 losses. Henry had plenty of fumbles, but only on three of those did they result in points for our opponents directly or indirectly on subsequent drives and only in 1 of our 8 losses. Henry played very well in 3 of the 8 losses and wasn't much of a factor due to lack of use in 4 of them. I think that speaks volumes. Defend it and argue against it as you may, but the facts speak louder than mere words.

[WG]

Originally posted by Andrea1234
i am not level headed im only saying that hes not going anywhere like it or not now lets wait for next season to juged him it was only hes first year here

LOL

Indeed. I'm only engaging on this thread b/c it's of interest to me. I've said all along that with this "trade" we were "stuck" w/ Drew for better or for worse for at least three seasons. I'm not in favor of changing our QB this year. If we can get a good one in the draft, we need to think of a capable backup in case Drew goes down, which quite frankly, at the rate he's taking sacks, it wouldn't surprise me. He's not as mobile as RJ although he's more durable. But his lack of mobility will mean harder hits as well. He'll get popped at times.

What I am contesting however are these unfounded notions that it was he who led the Pats to or through the playoffs when in fact he was terrible in them. I can post the numbers for you if you like. There's really no arguing it. Yet, people do.

It would be like saying Neil O'Donnell was responsible for the Steelers' success while he was on the team. Or Kerry Collins for the Giants. It's baseless.

[Andrea1234]

and i say it angin lets forget about this season? and hope that next season we make it to the playoffs thats all im saying on the sub the season is over done there nothing we can do about that live and learn form his mistakes and hopfully we can win more games and then maybe make it to the big one :)

[LtBillsFan66]

No it was not primarily his fault for losing to the Raiders. He played a part, but not the main reason.

You'll surely accuse me of making excuses but
From watching the game, you will see that we played from behind the whole game. The Raiders put up the first points and matched us the whole way. The O was fine. Made a few costly mistakes, but the difference was that the D didn't create any advantageous mistakes. The O and Drew should not be expected to continue to perform at the level they were before the breakdown. The Raiders continued because they were unchallenged.

Here is the gamebook:
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/gamebook/NFL_20021006_OAK@BUF

[LtBillsFan66]

The picks were nails in the coffin. No? Sort of? After scoring 31 points already - and giving up 35!

[WG]

Behind by what, 3, 7? Big deal. What, now we have to be ahead by 10 or we can't win! Ridiculous. You don't know what you're talking about.

We never trailed by more than 7 in that game until Drew's most awful INT was returned for a TD by the rookie Buchanon.

The first score was by the Raiders at the tail end of the 1st Q. Drew was 1 for 6 and was sacked once on top of that in our two first Q drives. We ran Henry twice. We couldn't score in an entire Q. So if we were behind, then it was the O's fault, not the D at that point.

7-0 Raiders
that lead held for ~6 minutes.
7-7
14-7 Raiders
that lead held up for less than 2 minutes.
14-14
21-14 Raiders
that lead held for a whopping 4:00 minutes
21-21 half

So in the first half, of 30 minutes, the Bills only trailed for ~12 of those 30 minutes. Other than that it was tied.

The score was tied or the Bills led for ~14:30 minutes of 18:30 minutes at the beginning of the second half.

So for over half of the 60 minutes, the Bills either led or the score was tied.

24-21 Bills
28-24 Raiders
31-28 Bills
that lead held up for almost 6 minutes!
35-31 Raiders

That's when Drew threw a poorly thrown ball that was picked by Buchanon and returned for a TD to give the Raiders a 42-31 lead, their largest of the game. Even then, we were still in the game w/ over 8 minutes left to play. But then...

On the next drive, Drew was sacked for a loss of 4 on 1st-and-10, then for a loss of 8 on 2nd-and-14, then grossly overthrew Moulds on 3rd down to effectively end the game.

How you can say that the biggest reason we lost that game is not Drew and his 3 INTs boggles the mind. The Raiders are an explosive offense. To expect the D w/ the neglect we gave it last offseason and w/ the lack of talent to play a whole lot better than they did that early in the season is unrealistic.

In any event, this notion that somehow we "played from behind the whole game" has absolutely no basis to it whatsoever. Additionally, if for the times that we were down, 3, 4, or 7 points is enough to force Drew into making such errors, then again, I would suggest we start looking for a QB who doesn't rattle so easily. To hope to never ever be down in games is totally unrealistic.

[LtBillsFan66]

Originally posted by Wys Guy

7-0 Raiders
7-7
14-7 Raiders
that lead held up for less than 2 minutes.
14-14
21-14 Raiders
that lead held for a whopping 4:00 minutes
21-21 half

24-21 Bills
28-24 Raiders
31-28 Bills
that lead held up for almost 6 minutes!
35-31 Raiders

In any event, this notion that somehow we "played from behind the whole game" has absolutely no basis to it whatsoever. .

:scratch:

We played from behind almost all of the game.

[SoCalBillsFan]

Drew's INT's were a big part of that loss. So was the already giving up 35 points! I'd rather fix the D than get rid of drew. All QB's throw picks at times. Look at favre tonight. We can't expect to win giving up 35 points.

[LtBillsFan66]

My main point is that the O can't be expected to perform at the level they were up until the breakdown point.

They outmistaked us - if you will.

Mistakes meaning we didn't force them to make any.

No balance. So Drew was NOT the main reason for the loss. A reason - yes - but not the main reason. Same is true for most of the other losses.

[LtBillsFan66]

Originally posted by SoCalBillsFan
Drew's INT's were a big part of that loss. So was the already giving up 35 points! I'd rather fix the D than get rid of drew. All QB's throw picks at times. Look at favre tonight. We can't expect to win giving up 35 points.

Yep.

[WG]

My point is that the D did what it could w/ the talent it had. You can't squeeze champaign out of a bunch of rocks!

On the flip side, this highly touted QB who supposedly is one of hte league's best and who "leads his team to wins" completely sh** the bed in this one with enough talent around him to make the Bills one of the league's top 3 talented offensive units on paper.

As to "playing from down", no, I don't think that being tied or ahead for more than half of the 60 minutes is "playing from down for most or all of the game!" Do you?

And for the last 8 minutes, if you want to know whay we were down, then ask Drew! He should know.