Let's evaluate TD objectively....

[OpIv37]

Ok, this thread is to list the good moves and bad moves that TD made since coming to Buffalo. I'm counting on some help, since I know I won't be able to remember everything:

Good:
1. Ditching Peerless Price
2. Drafting McGahee
3. Jerry Gray (regardless of this year, he made a terrible D into a great one)
4. Free Agents- Takeo Spikes, London Fletcher, Sam Adams and Lawyer Milloy
5. Drafting Lee Evans
6. McNally


Bad:
1. Mike Williams (drafting and the huge contract)
2. Gregg Williams and Kevin Gilbride
3. Not replacing Pat Williams
4. Consistently neglecting the O-line
5. Drew Bledsoe*
6. STILL NOT WINNING AFTER 3 1/4 years!


Still under deliberation:
1. Mike Mularkey
2. JP Losman

*= Even though Bledsoe didn't work out, I give TD partial credit for this move. We desperately needed a QB and he was by far the best available at the time.

Please add to the list.

[Mudflap1]

He's been here for 4 1/4 years...

You have to list Williams and Gilbride as two different mistakes. Williams was here with Mike Sheppard originally. Gilbride was brought in the next year as another Donahoe puppet.

Also, Greg Williams chose Jerry Gray, not Tom Donahoe.

Mike Mularkey chose Mouse McNally.

Bad: Josh Reed, 2nd round pick.

Jon

[Mudflap1]

I posted this a few days ago.

10. Gregg Williams' 3+ years.

9. Neglecting the offensive line. Yes, Mike Williams was drafted high (although he looks like he may never get over the hump from average to slightly above average lineman to stud). There is no excuse for this. The first thing you do when your rebuild a football team is to build a solid offensive and defensive line. That doesn't necessarily mean all first round draft picks, but a mix of high draft picks, solid veterans, and lower round draft picks with that might be overlooked. He has consistently patchworked the offensive line and it gets every quarterback killed and produces an inconsistent running attack.

8. The Drew Bledsoe/quarterback situation debacle. First he trades a 1st round pick for Bledsoe, who is then knighted as the savior to the franchise, then 3 years later he cuts him, stating that Losman will take us farther. We'll see about Losman, but so far, disastrous. Someone brought up a great point about this. If we were terrible last year, or Losman was annointed the starter last year and Bledsoe was gone, we would probably all be a little bit more lenient, because the team was 6-10 in 2003, and was not looking good. However, the 9-7 season last year really did raise expectations for everybody. MM and TD then state the Losman is starting and he will take the team farther. What else are you supposed to think? You think that he is ready, or at least ready enough, to manage the offense and that the team will win games. If the Bills were looking to win THIS YEAR (which they should at least for the fans' and Tom Donahoe's sake, because the fans have put up with enough mediocrity, and Tom Donahoe has had enough time), then Losman should not have started this year. He should have learned the offensive behind a capable veteran, gotten some spot duty, and taken the reigns next year or the year after.

7. Neglecting the defensive line. Yes, this is something we haven't talked about much. Big Pat and Sam Adams were a fine combo, however when Pat was here, Aaron Schobel was a decent pass rusher, but was mediocre against the run, and we had no other defensive end. Now Pat is gone, we have no suitable replacement, and the defensive ends are still very inconsistent overall. No pass rush yesterday against a very mediocre Saints team.

6. The smoke and mirrors. Donahoe seems to have an excuse every year (see the excuses thread). No more excuses, it's been 5+ years. Now his new thing is that he went into the locker room and ranted and raged to the team to play better. Hey genius! You're the one who put everyone in this position.

5. Hiring mediocre coaches. Granted, the book isn't closed yet on Mike Mularkey, but it's certainly fair to say that Tom Donahoe seems to pick "good 'ol boys" that he's comfortable with, instead of coaches like Cowher who are fiery and are born leaders. Gregg Williams is a great defensive coordinator, but he didn't have the leadership or charisma to lead. Mike Mularkey may have been a good offensive coordinator, but he doesn't appear (as of yet) to have enough to motivate the players to get the seasons off to good starts, and may in fact lose the team completely this season. Look at the guys that were hired or available in the years that Williams and Mularkey were hired -- John Fox, Marvin Lewis (although, in all fairness to TD, he didn't want to come here), Charlie Weis, Romeo Crennel, Dennis Green, Jim Mora Jr., Lovie Smith, Mike Nolan, Nick Saban (although he probably wouldn't have come here), etc. With the possible exception of Nolan, and MAYBE Lovie Smith, I'd take all of those guys over Mularkey and Williams. What do most of those guys have in common? They are leaders who probably wouldn't roll over for Tom Donahoe. Who did we interview? Guys like Fassel and Jauron, because they are pushovers.

4. Our drafts have been very hit and miss. Drafts in general can be hit and miss, but if we aren't going to pursue any big-name free agents (or free agents in general), we have to make the drafts count. Again, some good picks, some bad ones.

3. He has put the business end of the team ahead of wins and losses. Why do you think he just (shhhh! quietly) got a contract extension? It's because 'ol Ralph is getting fat and happy while the suckers (us, the fans) pay lots of dough to see this mediocre product perform year in and year out, without them ever getting any better. Maybe if he fielded a good team we would be even more excited about shelling out money and they could make more of a profit?

2. Our opinion of Tom Donahoe shouldn't change whether this team gets to the playoffs or not this year. He should go anyway. He's had enough time. If this team squeaks into the playoffs (which looks like a distant miracle right now), he has still had enough time.

1. His record in 5+ years is 27-41 with no playoff appearances.

Please add your thoughts. We should mail this completed list (along with the Tom Donahoe excuses) into the Buffalo News Sports mailroom, and maybe buffalobills.com.

Jon<!-- / message -->

[Historian]

Gregg Williams

(he sucked)

[chernobylwraiths]

Ok, this thread is to list the good moves and bad moves that TD made since coming to Buffalo. I'm counting on some help, since I know I won't be able to remember everything:

Good:
1. Ditching Peerless Price
2. Drafting McGahee
3. Jerry Gray (regardless of this year, he made a terrible D into a great one)
4. Free Agents- Takeo Spikes, London Fletcher, Sam Adams and Lawyer Milloy
5. Drafting Lee Evans
6. McNally


Bad:
1. Mike Williams (drafting and the huge contract)
2. Gregg Williams and Kevin Gilbride
3. Not replacing Pat Williams
4. Consistently neglecting the O-line
5. Drew Bledsoe*
6. STILL NOT WINNING AFTER 3 1/4 years!


Still under deliberation:
1. Mike Mularkey
2. JP Losman

*= Even though Bledsoe didn't work out, I give TD partial credit for this move. We desperately needed a QB and he was by far the best available at the time.

Please add to the list.


Good:

Ditching Peerless AND getting a first round draft choice
Drafting McGahee, Clements, Williams, Evans.
FA: Spikes, Fletcher, Milloy, Adams, Vincent
NOT taking the "sure thing" Kenyatta Walker"
Still getting Kelsay in the second round after taking McGahee
Drafting McGee
Getting us out of cap hell earlier than expected.

Bad:

Hiring Williams as first HC. It was Williams who picked his staff and after firing Sheppard after one year picked Gilbride. I read somewhere that Donahoe didn't want him to bring in Gilbride. Not getting more talent at offensive line.


I honestly can't believe that some people think drafting MIke Williams was a bad choice. Sure he may not be a future HOFer but he is an above average RT IMO. Bledsoe being brought here gave a lot of fans hope. It is not Bledsoe's fault that his shortcomings were never addressed. Everyone knew he needed an above average line in order to succeed, yet he never got that. Somehow, because he was never given the tools that everyone knew he needed, many said that he sucked.

I also find it humorous that many thought Mularkey did a decent job last year, especially after the poor start. Now, he supposedly sucks as well. I'm sure if we got Belechick here and the team went 3-13, many would say he sucks as well. This year was going to be rough trying to get a young QB ready, but of course as many said last year under Bledsoe, "it can't get any worse". I guess we have seen that it can get MUCH worse.

Personally, I think both Mularkey and Donahoe get one more year after this. If there isn't significant improvement, then they both should go. This means that Losman deserves every chance to lose his job over the next two seasons. Too much has been given up for him and this organization. Getting rid of TD without getting rid of Mularkey isn't going to happen. A losing year this year as much as I hate it seems to be inevitable in order to get the kids the needed experience and there is plenty of youth on this team. Mularkey deserves as much time as Williams got and we all know that Wilson hates paying guys that aren't working so I don't think MM or TD would get fired before next offseason.

[Mudflap1]

27-41

Jon

[Dozerdog]

TD doesn't hire the assistant coaches.

He allows his head coaches (like most teams in the league) to hire whom they see fit. TD didn't coax Sam Wyche out of retirement, or get ex-oiler buddies Gillbride and Jerry Gray on the staff under Williams.

[frank74]

Ok, this thread is to list the good moves and bad moves that TD made since coming to Buffalo. I'm counting on some help, since I know I won't be able to remember everything:

Good:
1. Ditching Peerless Price
2. Drafting McGahee
3. Jerry Gray (regardless of this year, he made a terrible D into a great one)
4. Free Agents- Takeo Spikes, London Fletcher, Sam Adams and Lawyer Milloy
5. Drafting Lee Evans
6. McNally


Bad:
1. Mike Williams (drafting and the huge contract)
2. Gregg Williams and Kevin Gilbride
3. Not replacing Pat Williams
4. Consistently neglecting the O-line
5. Drew Bledsoe*
6. STILL NOT WINNING AFTER 3 1/4 years!


Still under deliberation:
1. Mike Mularkey
2. JP Losman

*= Even though Bledsoe didn't work out, I give TD partial credit for this move. We desperately needed a QB and he was by far the best available at the time.

Please add to the list.
nice, pretty accurate except, i don't know if mcgahee was truly necessary and i only say that meaning we should have been addressing the offensive line in the draft. plus, you could put a decent running back behind a great offensive line and your running game flourishes. i am not a mcgahee basher at all, as a matter of fact the bills should have designed their offense around him this year, but in the past, our offensive line should have been addressed more meaning we could have passed on mcgahee and i think we would be fine today. just my opinion.

one other bad move.....not hiring marvin lewis

[Captain Obvious]

Bad:

Two Ist day picks 2002 Ryan Denney and Coy Wire are nothing more than backups
Not including Marques Sullivan TD has only drafted 1 2nd day pick since hes been here who is a starter (Terrence McGee)

[Sportsuser101]

I would do that Bledsoe deal over again. As I've said before without Bledsoe I wouldn't think that Adams, Milloy, Spikes or Vincent would be here. And if they did come here they'd want a kings ransom.

If not Mike Williams then who? You say TD has neglected the o-line but then draft who Bryant McKinnie? He's worked out as well as Mike has. Levi Jones? He was a reach where the Bengals drafted him.

You guys failed to mention the 2 good trades and some would say 3 good trades. We traded Kenyatta Walker for Nate Clements and Travis Henry. What about Willis McGahee for Peerless Price which then gave us the money to sign both Spikes and Adams. Even the Bledsoe trade worked out because it brought a name and excitement to the Bills bringing in the talent on defense. How about getting Jonas Jennings with the last pick of the 3rd round. Yes he was constantly hurt but when he played he played well. How about Schobel in the 2nd? You failed to mention Dick LeBeau coming on board. Terrence McGee in the 4th round? Looks good to me. What about Lee Evans? Can you imagine if we drafted Reggie Williams if he fell to us?

I personally think TD has done what he could have done. He put money into the offensive line which hasn't even been looked at. Check out the Bills salary on the offensive line compared to some other teams. You will be suprised. Sooner or later you have to let the players do the playing. I think TD has done a good job but the coaches haven't done theres. I like his method of taking the best player available in the draft and it has worked. I wonder how you guys would have felt if we took Shawn Andrews or Veron Carey instead of Lee Evans because offensive line was a "bigger need".

[frank74]

Bad:

Two Ist day picks 2002 Ryan Denney and Coy Wire are nothing more than backups
Not including Marques Sullivan TD has only drafted 1 2nd day pick since hes been here who is a starter (Terrence McGee)

very true

[Sportsuser101]

Bad:

Two Ist day picks 2002 Ryan Denney and Coy Wire are nothing more than backups
Not including Marques Sullivan TD has only drafted 1 2nd day pick since hes been here who is a starter (Terrence McGee)
And how many teams can you name that have more then 1 2nd day pick as a starter? There's not many.

[Mr. Cynical]

Ok, this thread is to list the good moves and bad moves that TD made since coming to Buffalo. I'm counting on some help, since I know I won't be able to remember everything:

Good:
1. Ditching Peerless Price
2. Drafting McGahee
3. Jerry Gray (regardless of this year, he made a terrible D into a great one)
4. Free Agents- Takeo Spikes, London Fletcher, Sam Adams and Lawyer Milloy
5. Drafting Lee Evans
6. McNally


Bad:
1. Mike Williams (drafting and the huge contract)
2. Gregg Williams and Kevin Gilbride
3. Not replacing Pat Williams
4. Consistently neglecting the O-line
5. Drew Bledsoe*
6. STILL NOT WINNING AFTER 3 1/4 years!


Still under deliberation:
1. Mike Mularkey
2. JP Losman

*= Even though Bledsoe didn't work out, I give TD partial credit for this move. We desperately needed a QB and he was by far the best available at the time.

Please add to the list.
I don't know if Mouse is a pro to be honest. Yeah, he is "the man" by reputation, and yeah, you can't make chicken salad from chicken s**t, but at some point he has to be accountable. Our oline sucks.

I agree with the rest, although I don't see a need for an asterisk by Drew's name. He was a huge mistake. He cost us a #1 pick, and that's independent of the Price deal. Bottom line is he still traded a #1 for Drew - if he didn't, we could have had two #1's that year. He also cost us $21M+ dollars for 1/2 a season. Finally he gave us false hope, the worst thing of all.

[vicmantak]

Objectively:

Good:
1. Peerless Price franchise tag.
2. Drew Bledsoe (agree or not he generated us a great buzz)
3. Nate Clements (by far his best ever drafted player)
4. Built a respectable DEFENSE (Posey, Fletcher, Clements, Spikes, Adams, Milloy, Vincent, McGee and maybe Shobel)
5. Avoided salary cap hell

Bad:
1. No championships... sorry, playoffs...
2. Unexperienced head coaches
3. Bills are mainly built (and also destroyed...) by FA
4. Zero priority to the OL and Mike Williams...
5. Mediocre at best draft balance (no starting material in mid or late rounds)
6. No reasons to be proud.

Unobjectively:

Good:
1. Keeps Hope (SOLD OUT tickets, Bills makes constant "noise" and amazingly he really knows how to involve everyone)
2. Innovative
3. Injects Stamina (agree or not...)

Bad:
1. Bad Fantasy Football GM (gambler)
2. Souvereign
3. Surrounded by "kids"

[Lone Stranger]

27-41. Bad enough that we have that record but what dismays me is the lack a quality depth at most positions particularly both lines. All these gurus TD is supposed to have on his staff...What a joke!!!!!!!

[Turf]

Go over all the minutia you want. And I agree with what most everyone is saying.
But for me it's real simple.
5 years, not one playoff game. See Ya.

[Sportsuser101]

You guys really need to check out other teams rosters before you kill ours. I think you guys think we are still in the early 90s where you can get as many guys as you want and keep them without salary cap implications. We have good talent and nice depth at several positions when you compare us to other teams. Also this misconcemption that we don't get 2nd day starters. Hate to break it to you but not many teams do.

[Billsouth]

Mike williams is the most OVER paid RIGHT tackle in nfl history. we paid 9 million for a RIGHT TACKLE and have a castoff of the bears as our left tackle. HOW does this make any sense?????

say what u want, but mike williams (the #4 pick)was supposed to end up playing left tackle. however, he sucks and cannot play it. HE IS A BUST!!!

[Sportsuser101]

Philadelphia Eagles

QB Donovan McNabb 1st day pick
RB Brian Westbrook 1st day pick
FB Lamar Gordon FA
WR Terrell Owens Trade
WR Todd Pinkston 1st day pick
TE LJ Smith 1st day pick
LT Tra Thomas 1st day pick
LG Artis Hicks UDFA C Hank Fraley UDFARG Shane Andrews 1st day pick
RT Jon Runyan 1st day pick

DE Jevon Kearse FA
DT Mike Patterson 1st day pick
DT Darwin Walker FA
DE Jerome McDougle 1st day pick
OLB Dhani Jones FA
ILB Jeremiah Trotter FA
OLB Keith Adams FA
CB Lito Sheppard 1st day pick
FS Brian Dawkins 1st day pick
SS Michael Lewis 1st day pick
CB Sheldon Brown 1st day pick

Not 1 starter on the NFC champion Philadelphia Eagles was drafted on day 2.

We have Terrence McGee.

Just for comparisons sake.

[Sportsuser101]

Mike williams is the most OVER paid RIGHT tackle in nfl history. we paid 9 million for a RIGHT TACKLE and have a castoff of the bears as our left tackle. HOW does this make any sense?????

say what u want, but mike williams (the #4 pick)was supposed to end up playing left tackle. however, he sucks and cannot play it. HE IS A BUST!!!
And would you rather have Bryant McKinnie over there? He's given up at least 11 sacks in his only full seasons. BTW Gandy has only given up 1 sack. Which BTW is less then Orlando Pace and Jonathon Ogden, 2 of the premier tackles in the game. Mike also has less sacks given up then both of those guys.

[Iehoshua]

A first round pick for ANYBODY nowadays is getting rarer and rarer it seems.

In hindsight, Drew for the 1st rounder was highway robbery. At the time, it looked like a fair deal.

On the other hand, we straight up mugged Atlanta when we traded Price for their 1st.

Despite any moves, you have to look at the bottom line, which is winning. TD has failed to build a winner, over and over. That's it, period.

[Billsouth]

And would you rather have Bryant McKinnie over there? He's given up at least 11 sacks in his only full seasons. BTW Gandy has only given up 1 sack. Which BTW is less then Orlando Pace and Jonathon Ogden, 2 of the premier tackles in the game. Mike also has less sacks given up then both of those guys.


how does bryant mckinnie possibly being a bust in anyway make mike any less of a bust. u r crazy if u r suggesting that gandy is even close to being as good as oden or pace. u cannot judge a lineman solely on the number of sacks given up. its like grading a pitcher solely on the number of homeruns he gave up.

moreover, gandy's numbers r deceiving because JP runs so much. IMAGINE what they would be like with drew.

[Sportsuser101]

how does bryant mckinnie possibly being a bust in anyway make mike any less of a bust. u r crazy if u r suggesting that gandy is even close to being as good as oden or pace. u cannot judge a lineman solely on the number of sacks given up. its like grading a pitcher solely on the number of homeruns he gave up.

moreover, gandy's numbers r deceiving because JP runs so much. IMAGINE what they would be like with drew.
I'm not saying he's any less of a bust. I'm saying that you guys cry about not addressing the offensive line but when we use the 4th overall pick on an offensive lineman you say he shouldn't have done so. Alot of you wanted McKinnie. I was showing proof that at McKinnie's strength he has been worse then Mike. Mike's strength is his run game and McKinnie's strength is the pass game. Mike also has less penalties then McKinnie.

And you're right you cannot judge an offensive lineman based solely on sacks given up but its a huge part of the game especially at tackle. BTW Gandy only has 2 penalties. Ogden has 3. How exactly is that crazy that Gandy has played better then 2 of the top tackles in the league? Because the Madden rankings don't rate Gandy high. And actually a running QB typically gets sacked more often then a pocket QB.

I don't mind when a guy disagrees with me but I can't stand it when a guy tries to show me up by giving skewed information or by saying a player is better because he's a bigger name.

[G. Host]

how does bryant mckinnie possibly being a bust in anyway make mike any less of a bust. u r crazy if u r suggesting that gandy is even close to being as good as oden or pace. u cannot judge a lineman solely on the number of sacks given up. its like grading a pitcher solely on the number of homeruns he gave up.

Mike is not a bust. He got overpaid because of the IDIOTIC slotting.

Comparing to "oden or pace" is crazy - those are top 3 LTs

[BSXIII]

TD has been a terrible GM. There are no two ways about that, his record speaks for itself. Bottom 5 in the league since he took over. Has he brought in good players? Yes sure he has. Has he built a good team absolutely not! If you judge this team as a fantasy football team, he may even be an above average GM. However, that's because all he's drafted are players at the skill positions. Half the offense is the O-Line, yet he's paid no attention to it at all and everytime we think they can't get any worse they do.

Coming in Donahoe's claim to fame was that he was a salary cap guru, and would keep us out of salary cap hell. Right off the bat, he failed at his so called specialty. Everytime we have a FA coming up he acts like he has the upper hand in the negotiations, and they end up leaving. Sure there is a salary cap, but why can elite teams like New England, Philly, and Pitt keep their core together, while we lose our best players to free agency?

Perhaps the biggest move he made so far was the trade for Drew Bledsoe. It was a good move, but he still managed to screw it up. He signed a future hall of famer to fix an anemic offense and he did that to put the Bills back on the map and attract free agents. (For the record, Takeo Spikes went on the Best Damn Sports Show before his last year with the Bengals, when Bledsoe was about to be traded, and said he wanted them to get Bledsoe. A year later he said the Bengals weren't committed to winning and went to the Bills go figure).

In that situation they make a big move to get a star player, he has success, and they let go of 3 of his top 4 outlets that season. He's a pocket passer and the O-line was pathetic (Bill Bellicheck referred to it as "Horse Sh.." (crap) in the Patriots reign book), yet fixing it wasn't even close to a priority.

After blaming puppet coaches for the failure of the team, they blame Bledsoe and trade away a first and 2nd round pick for a project at best from Tulane. Without ever showing anything on the field, they annoint him the starter and savior. Now that has blown up in Donahoes face, the vets are turning on him. We are counting on Kelly Holcomb to save the day.

The TD experiment has failed. It will get worse before it gets better.