OK, let's compare...for those afflicted with ADD...

[lordofgun]

Eli Manning 2004: 95-197 48.2% 1043 5.3ypt 6TD 9INT 55.4 Rating
JP Losman 2005: 45-94 47.9% 433 4.6ypt 1TD 2INT 55.8 Rating

So anyone that says JP is gonna suck is clearly speaking out of their rear end. Eli looked just as bad last year. The only thing that gives Eli the edge is that he had a coach who stuck with him. Unfortunately for JP, he has a bunch of selfish jerks as teammates and a clueless coach.

Yes, it was a short term win to play Holcomb, but in the long term, it could prove to be VERY BAD.

Let's say Holcomb plays just well enough to keep the job all year. Then what? We're still in the same place with JP and a career backup is still our best QB because JP has no time to develop.

Please, for the love of God, put JP back in there. Sure, it's painful to watch now, but this is no Super Bowl team and that should be the only goal of every team...to win the big one. By playing Holcomb now, we could be setting ourselves back for next year too.

Best-case scenario is that we win this week despite Holcomb's terrible play, and they'lll come to their senses and put JP back in there.

[justasportsfan]

Eli Manning 2004: 95-197 48.2% 1043 5.3ypt 6TD 9INT 55.4 Rating
JP Losman 2005: 45-94 47.9% 433 4.6ypt 1TD 2INT 55.8 Rating

So anyone that says JP is gonna suck is clearly speaking out of their rear end. Eli looked just as bad last year. The only thing that gives Eli the edge is that he had a coach who stuck with him. Unfortunately for JP, he has a bunch of selfish jerks as teammates and a clueless coach.

Yes, it was a short term win to play Holcomb, but in the long term, it could prove to be VERY BAD.

Let's say Holcomb plays just well enough to keep the job all year. Then what? We're still in the same place with JP and a career backup is still our best QB because JP has no time to develop.

Please, for the love of God, put JP back in there. Sure, it's painful to watch now, but this is no Super Bowl team and that should be the only goal of every team...to win the big one. By playing Holcomb now, we could be setting ourselves back for next year too.

Best-case scenario is that we win this week despite Holcomb's terrible play, and they'lll come to their senses and put JP back in there.

The giants were in a rebuilding mode w/ one of the youngest line up in the league. They could grow together as a team. We could've done that with JP since he has Evans and Willis. Try telling that to Moulds, Fletcher, Spikes, Adams, Milloy, Vincent , though. etc.


We had a D , ST and running game that is playoff calibre. By the time JP gets ready that ST and D will probably be disbanded by then. Clements could pull a Winfield and say "I want to play for a contender"

[YardRat]

If JP wants the job back he can get his head out of his ass and earn it...something he never did to begin with.

I'm sure there are plenty of stats out there for QB's that bombed out of the league that compare favorably to Manning's and Losman's.

[lordofgun]

The giants were in a rebuilding mode w/ one of the youngest line up in the league. They could grow together as a team. We could've done that with JP since he has Evans and Willis. Try telling that to Moulds, Fletcher, Spikes, Adams, Milloy, Vincent , though. etc.


We had a D , ST and running game that is playoff calibre. By the time JP gets ready that ST and D will probably be disbanded by then. Clements could pull a Winfield and say "I want to play for a contender"
And you honestly think putting Holcomb in there with his whopping 8 yards per completion and 3 fumbles makes us a contender?

[lordofgun]

If JP wants the job back he can get his head out of his ass and earn it...something he never did to begin with.

I'm sure there are plenty of stats out there for QB's that bombed out of the league that compare favorably to Manning's and Losman's.
Right...the point is that we don't know and we won't know until we show some patience with Losman.

[ddaryl]

its not going to happen this year because the Bills are going to have to reload some next season.

If the Bills lose 3 out of the next 4 which I believe is very possible then I would stick JP back in and let him finish the season. but as long as we have a shot at the psot season KH is going to get the call.


I have to agree with the decision. As much as I would rather have JP in and playing better, he needs to sit and take the game in from the sidelines for a few weeks. KH is the vet with more experience and he can help our O regain its confidence in general.

I do agree that JP's development will take a hit, but can we really jhust sacrafice the entire season in hopes that JP gets it sooner rather then later.

[lordofgun]

Drew Brees was terrible for a few years...

The point is that nearly EVERY rookie or second-year QB struggles...especially if their second year is their first year playing.

Look at Carson Palmer last year...he sucked in the beginning, but finished the year strong...and now look at him. He also had a coach who was strongly behind him.

[lordofgun]

its not going to happen this year because the Bills are going to have to reload some next season.

If the Bills lose 3 out of the next 4 which I believe is very possible then I would stick JP back in and let him finish the season. but as long as we have a shot at the psot season KH is going to get the call.


I have to agree with the decision. As much as I would rather have JP in and playing better, he needs to sit take the game in form the sidelines for a few weeks. KH is the vet with more experience and he can help our O regain its confidence in general.

I do agree that JP's development will take a hit, but can we really jhust sacrafice the entire season in hopes that JP gets it sooner rather then later.
What exactly are we sacrificing? A few more wins? Who cares? It's all about the Super Bowl and we are no Super Bowl team.

[YardRat]

Sorry--I'm with the vets on the team. You don't take a team on the verge of the play-offs that boasts the #1 special teams in the league and, at the time, the #2 defense in the league and put the third squad (offense) in the hands of an unproven commodity.

Even if the Bledsoe dumping was inevitable for salary cap reasons, Holcomb or someone else should have been allowed to compete for the job.

If we started out 1-3 with a veteran at the helm, then I could understand switching to JP...but not vice-versa.

[lordofgun]

I guess I just heartily disagree that we're a team on the verge of the playoffs. MAybe if we played in the NFC North...

[ddaryl]

What exactly are we sacrificing? A few more wins? Who cares? It's all about the Super Bowl and we are no Super Bowl team.


i completely agree, but the coach, GM, and team cannot say that, nor can they allow themselves to believe that.

they need to play for the here and now, and if we go on a winning streak against formidable opponents everyones attitude will change including yours.

KH will get another game or 3 to prove he can lead the Bills O and hopefully JP is taking some mental notes on what KH does right. If we win against the Jets and NE we are in the drivers seat. There is still hope, and that's all we have for the rest of this season.

[TacklingDummy]

So anyone that says JP is gonna suck is clearly speaking out of their rear end.

Anyone comparing JP to Eli, Peyton, Palmer, is clearly speaking out of their rear end. Try Ryan Leaf or Akili Smith.

[ddaryl]

If we started out 1-3 with a veteran at the helm, then I could understand switching to JP...but not vice-versa.

i completly disagree. QB controversy was avoided by not having an all out competition. Most teams place their #1 draft pick QB at the helm by year 2 or sooner. Sometimes it works, sometimes teams are just patient, and other times there is too much to sacrafice and the switch needs to be made.

BUT giving JP the starters job, letting him get as much exposure as possible durign Mini camps, training camps and pre-season was VERY VERY necessary for developing a green QB.

[justasportsfan]

And you honestly think putting Holcomb in there with his whopping 8 yards per completion and 3 fumbles makes us a contender?it was his first time to start and barely one week to practice w/ the first squad. Add to the fact that he had a rookie at right guard and a Jerman American at right tackle.

He doubled JP's output in his first game. I believe we can contend.He's been able to throw for 400+ yards without the weapons he has here in Buffalo. If he averages 200+ yards per game and both the D and ST do their jobs, yes we can contend. The fins aren't as good as everyone thinks and neither are the jets. We have a legitimate shot at finishing second in the AFCE if we put our best players on the field.


I want to win now. We'll cross the bridge w/ JP when we get there. I'm just tired of TD making moves for a future that may never come.

[Iehoshua]

:posrep:

One of the best threads of the season.

This team barely squeaked out a win versus a Miami team who turned the ball over FIVE times and committed almost TWENTY penalties. Anyone who thinks we got a chance at the playoffs is kidding themselves. Even if we did squeak in somehow, we'd most likely be one-and-done.

Time to develop JP. Holcomb brings nothing extraordinary to the table. That's it, period.

[ddaryl]

Anyone comparing JP to Eli, Peyton, Palmer, is clearly speaking out of their rear end. Try Ryan Leaf.


Obviously your another P.O.S Bills fan pretender.

Obviously anyone can be compared to anyone, and JP has already proven beyond any doubt that he is no Ryan Leaf. Ryan leaf was a loud mouth classless chump. Jp has been anything but

TacklingDummy = Ryan Leaf

[TacklingDummy]

Obviously anyone can be compared to anyone, and JP has already proven beyond any doubt that he is no Ryan Leaf. Ryan leaf was a loud mouth classless chump. Jp has been anything but


He has? Only thing he's been good at so far is running his mouth.

Your right, Ryan Leaf throw for 300 more yards then JP did in his 1st 4 career starts. SO far JP has been worse then Leaf.

[justasportsfan]

[QUOTE=Darth Takeothe season.

This team barely squeaked out a win versus a Miami team who turned the ball over FIVE times and committed almost TWENTY penalties. Anyone who thinks we got a chance at the playoffs is kidding themselves. Even if we did squeak in somehow, we'd most likely be one-and-done.

[/QUOTE]the patriots should've quit the season they won their first sb after starting 0-4 then. That logic is worse than Wade saying we're out of the playoffs even though we're mathematically in contention. We blasted Wade for giving up on the team so early.

Whether we make it or not remains to be seen but I'm hte type of person who will go down fighting.

[Iehoshua]

the patriots should've quit the season they won their first sb after starting 0-4 then. That logic is worse than Wade saying we're out of the playoffs even though we're mathematically in contention. We blasted Wade for giving up on the team so early.
Whether we make it or not remains to be seen but I'm hte type of person who will go down fighting.
That year the Patriots dumped one of the most overrated QBs in the history of the National Football League and discovered one of the best QBs ever to play the game of football.

Benching Losman for Holcomb does not compare to that situation...

[DarbyTheDinosaur]

Seriously, this thread makes a great point. All of these determinations are a little premature...JP has 4 games under his belt. Everybody think back and remember how great you were you first month of the job...I bet you were good enough to be CEO right?

However, I think Holcomb is the right move right now...see how that goes, make a season of it if you can...there are too many other pieces in place to waste them away. As soon as the Bills lose 7 games (which they won't...fingers crossed), go back to JP. If the Bills get blown out or blow teams out, go back to JP...let him learn in garbage time, low pressure situations. The beginning of this season he was a 24-25 year old kid with an entire region's hopes on his shoulders...it's tough to focus on anything then.

Everybody just chill out...
:calm:

[mchurchfie]

Eli Manning 2004: 95-197 48.2% 1043 5.3ypt 6TD 9INT 55.4 Rating
JP Losman 2005: 45-94 47.9% 433 4.6ypt 1TD 2INT 55.8 Rating

So anyone that says JP is gonna suck is clearly speaking out of their rear end. Eli looked just as bad last year. The only thing that gives Eli the edge is that he had a coach who stuck with him. Unfortunately for JP, he has a bunch of selfish jerks as teammates and a clueless coach.

Yes, it was a short term win to play Holcomb, but in the long term, it could prove to be VERY BAD.

Let's say Holcomb plays just well enough to keep the job all year. Then what? We're still in the same place with JP and a career backup is still our best QB because JP has no time to develop.

Please, for the love of God, put JP back in there. Sure, it's painful to watch now, but this is no Super Bowl team and that should be the only goal of every team...to win the big one. By playing Holcomb now, we could be setting ourselves back for next year too.

Best-case scenario is that we win this week despite Holcomb's terrible play, and they'lll come to their senses and put JP back in there.Could you repeat that again please....I was slighty distracted.:couch:

[YardRat]

Obviously there are a lot of players on the Bills that don't agree with those of you who don't believe this team still has a shot at the play-offs. They want to win, and they want to win now.

What will the team look like next year? TKO won't be 100%, Fletcher and Adams might be gone, Clements will sign elsewhere, and Posey can be replaced. What about our aging safeties, Milloy and Vincent? And Moulds? He's already slowing down, and isn't going to get any faster.

As young guys step into the starting roles vacated by the older generation, some are going to forego their special teams duties to concentrate on offense full time. Now you've wasted a year and taken a hit to two top squads all for the sake of developing a young QB.

What about Evans? The guy has the skills to be a superstar, but can't show it because JP won't or can't throw him the ball?

It's already been proven by the one and three start that this team isn't play-off bound with Losman at the helm...we have yet to see the same from Holcomb.

Go with Kelly until the play-offs are out of the question, then stick 'the future' back in to 'develop'.

BTW...if you're going to neg me, at least have the balls to sign it. I don't bite back...too hard, anyway :D

[Forward_Lateral]

I'm tired of losing. Plain and Simple. I'm tired of being fed the same BS story that the Bills are "rebuilding". They've been rebuilding every year for the past 10, at least. I'm sick of it. I want to see them make the playoffs NOW. I don't give a rats ass about next year, or 5 years down the road. Anything can happen in an off-season. I expect the team to put the team with the best chance of winning on the field.

[Devin]

Eli Manning 2004: 95-197 48.2% 1043 5.3ypt 6TD 9INT 55.4 Rating
JP Losman 2005: 45-94 47.9% 433 4.6ypt 1TD 2INT 55.8 Rating

So anyone that says JP is gonna suck is clearly speaking out of their rear end. Eli looked just as bad last year. The only thing that gives Eli the edge is that he had a coach who stuck with him. Unfortunately for JP, he has a bunch of selfish jerks as teammates and a clueless coach.

Yes, it was a short term win to play Holcomb, but in the long term, it could prove to be VERY BAD.

Let's say Holcomb plays just well enough to keep the job all year. Then what? We're still in the same place with JP and a career backup is still our best QB because JP has no time to develop.

Please, for the love of God, put JP back in there. Sure, it's painful to watch now, but this is no Super Bowl team and that should be the only goal of every team...to win the big one. By playing Holcomb now, we could be setting ourselves back for next year too.

Best-case scenario is that we win this week despite Holcomb's terrible play, and they'lll come to their senses and put JP back in there.

:bf1:

If our Defense was playing the way it was last year and takeo wasnt gone, sure keep Holcomb in because I think wed be a playoff team then.

As of now id love to see the growing pains over and get JP in there.

[justasportsfan]

That year the Patriots dumped one of the most overrated QBs in the history of the National Football League and discovered one of the best QBs ever to play the game of football.

Benching Losman for Holcomb does not compare to that situation...you guys are pinning your hopes on JP being the next coming of JIm Kelly. What if he does end up being Leaf. Sure we won't know unless we play him but wouldn't that apply to Holcomb as well.

I just cannot give up on the season especially when we have a shot. We know that our season is over if we play JP. Do we know for sure if our season is over if we let Holcomb play? As soon as we know for sure our season id done, I'm all for starting JP right away. It amazes me how some of you are willing to just give up on the rest of our players.

[lordofgun]

No Super Bowl victory = a bad season

We have no shot at a super bowl this year, so let's develop our franchise QB.

The same people who are already saying JP sucks are probably the same people who get trashed on a Sunday Night and wonder why they get fired on monday.

They're the same people who cheat on their wife for the momentary pleasure and then lose their family.

They're the same people who eat McDonalds every day because it tastes good, only to have a heart attack when they turn 40.

They're the same people who play video games all day and then complain they don't have a job, a life, or a future.

They're the same people who sleep with prostitutes and wonder why their parts itch a week later.

Momentary pleasure < Long-term pleasure

[justasportsfan]

:bf1:
If our Defense was playing the way it was last year and takeo wasnt gone, sure keep Holcomb in because I think wed be a playoff team then.
As of now id love to see the growing pains over and get JP in there. try telling that to our vets who are still playing their hearts to make something out of the season. Unless someone can guarantee that JP is the next Jim Kelly , let's start him. Can you? We were 0-4 last year and we never gave up. We are in the standings compared to where we were last year, now you want to give up?

[Iehoshua]

you guys are pinning your hopes on JP being the next coming of JIm Kelly. What if he does end up being Leaf. Sure we won't know unless we play him but wouldn't that apply to Holcomb as well.
I just cannot give up on the season especially when we have a shot. We know that our season is over if we play JP. Do we know for sure if our season is over if we let Holcomb play? As soon as we know for sure our season id done, I'm all for starting JP right away. It amazes me how some of you are willing to just give up on the rest of our players.

Do we know for sure the season is over if JP starts? Is JP personally responsible for our 3 losses?

I don't hope Losman becomes Jim Kelly. I hope Losman can become the next Losman, and that he'll put his abilities out there and leads the team. Losman is 24. Holcomb is 32. Sure Holcomb could be like Rich Ganon and get good late in his career but hasn't happened yet.

[lordofgun]

try telling that to our vets who are still playing their hearts to make something out of the season. Unless someone can guarantee that JP is the next Jim Kelly , let's start him. Can you? We were 0-4 last year and we never gave up. We are in the standings compared to where we were last year, now you want to give up?
I actually haven't seen many vets who have played their hearts out this year. They've all been subpar with the exception of a couple, IMO.

[justasportsfan]

No Super Bowl victory = a bad season

We have no shot at a super bowl this year, so let's develop our franchise QB.
Will you guarantee us a sb w/ JP at qb when he develops. You can't even guarantee us that he won't be the next Rob Johnson. I like JP and I think he'll be a great qb but I'm not giving up on the rest of the team.

[lordofgun]

Will you guarantee us a sb w/ JP at qb when he develops. You can't even guarantee us that he won't be the next Rob Johnson. I like JP and I think he'll be a great qb but I'm not giving up on the rest of the team.
No, but I'll guarantee no Super Bowl with Holcomb.

And that's exactly the point...no one can guarantee anything when it comes to JP because it's too early to tell! You're making my point.

[Iehoshua]

No Super Bowl victory = a bad season

We have no shot at a super bowl this year, so let's develop our franchise QB.

The same people who are already saying JP sucks are probably the same people who get trashed on a Sunday Night and wonder why they get fired on monday.

They're the same people who cheat on their wife for the momentary pleasure and then lose their family.

They're the same people who eat McDonalds every day because it tastes good, only to have a heart attack when they turn 40.

They're the same people who play video games all day and then complain they don't have a job, a life, or a future.

They're the same people who sleep with prostitutes and wonder why their parts itch a week later.

Momentary pleasure < Long-term pleasure


:bf1:

Great analogy! I don't think that's all people who take the 'Holcomb' stance but the mentality is similar, indeed.

For the record, I only play video games for an hour or two in the evenings, and don't complain about anything. :D

[Patrick76777]

Hey, sometimes you can hurt a QB’s development from yanking him too early!


But there are times when you can hurt a WB’s development by letting him get his behind kicked in for too long!


I thought it was a nice time for a change.

[justasportsfan]

Do we know for sure the season is over if JP starts? Is JP personally responsible for our 3 losses?

I don't hope Losman becomes Jim Kelly. I hope Losman can become the next Losman, and that he'll put his abilities out there and leads the team. Losman is 24. Holcomb is 32. Sure Holcomb could be like Rich Ganon and get good late in his career but hasn't happened yet. Let me throw you the smae question, how do you know Kelly is not the next Gannon unless we play him?

After Sundays win , we know FOR SURE we have a better shot w/ Kelly at qb. Care to disagree? Until that changes we keep fighting and playing to win. All of a sudden Moulds , Evans and CAMPBELL came alive w/ Holcomb. I know it's not saying much but let's see how good that passing game can become. JP's only target was REED.

You are banking on JP's potential. What about the potential of Holcomb throwing for over 400+ yards in a playoff game?

[LtBillsFan66]

I have to admit that I'm torn. I don't think Holcomb is the answer by any means. But I do think going with JP means laying down the entire season. I really see the good and bad of both decisions. The Sullivan article really opened my eyes.

I also think you have to consider McGahee's and Evan's development too. JP can hurt their progress...

In hindsight, I think keeping and starting Bledsoe would have been the best decision. <--- Fairway and other Bledsoe bashers can save it. We know how you feel already.

[Iehoshua]

Let me throw you the smae question, how do you know Kelly is not the next Gannon unless we play him?
After Sundays win , we know FOR SURE we have a better shot w/ Kelly at qb. Care to disagree? Until that changes we keep fighting and playing to win. All of a sudden Moulds , Evans and CAMPBELL came alive w/ Holcomb. I know it's not saying much but let's see how good that passing game can become. JP's only target was REED.
You are banking on JP's potential. What about the potential of Holcomb throwing for over 400+ yards in a playoff game?
I'm just going to agree to disagree. You have your view, I got mine. I'd rather bank on JP, that's just me.

[Iehoshua]

In hindsight, I think keeping and starting Bledsoe would have been the best decision.
I'm clearly anti-Bledsoe and I don't apologize for it, but looking at him as a player, you think he'd have a chance behind Buffalo's offensive line?

[justasportsfan]

No, but I'll guarantee no Super Bowl with Holcomb.

And that's exactly the point...no one can guarantee anything when it comes to JP because it's too early to tell! You're making my point.But you already know this early what our chances are w/ Kelly? LIke I said, we have a shot right now. You don't throw that shot away. I would rather just make playoffs than nothing at all. The rest of the players deserve a shot at making post season. The deserve to make their own destiny than us decide it for them.

[LtBillsFan66]

I'm clearly anti-Bledsoe and I don't apologize for it, but looking at him as a player, you think he'd have a chance behind Buffalo's offensive line?
He'd do much better than JP and the jury is out on Holcomb. I doubt Holcomb will prove to be much of an improvement. Didn't we lose money by dumping Drew. He had one more year left, right? And Holcomb ain't cheap, right? Maybe that money could have fixed the line a little more.

[justasportsfan]

I also think you have to consider McGahee's and Evan's development too. JP can hurt their progress...
:clap:

Not only that, how do you think it would make the other players feel that we are taking their hopes away from them for 1 player who is not even guaranteed to succeed?

[Patrick76777]

I'm clearly anti-Bledsoe and I don't apologize for it, but looking at him as a player, you think he'd have a chance behind Buffalo's offensive line?
With Drew, I say we’re 4-1 right now!


We still beat Houston and Miami. Tampa still eats us alive and Drew looks terrible in that game.

With Willis going for 140 yards, Drew makes enough plays to beat Atlanta! Those 2 missed bombs early, Drew doesn’t miss those.

And I think that we win that close NO’s game because Drew hits a few more passes.


That being said, I think with Drew, we struggle in Oakland and NE and probably are at 5-3 at the break.

[Mr. Cynical]

Eli Manning 2004: 95-197 48.2% 1043 5.3ypt 6TD 9INT 55.4 Rating
JP Losman 2005: 45-94 47.9% 433 4.6ypt 1TD 2INT 55.8 Rating

So anyone that says JP is gonna suck is clearly speaking out of their rear end. Eli looked just as bad last year. The only thing that gives Eli the edge is that he had a coach who stuck with him. Unfortunately for JP, he has a bunch of selfish jerks as teammates and a clueless coach.

Yes, it was a short term win to play Holcomb, but in the long term, it could prove to be VERY BAD.

Let's say Holcomb plays just well enough to keep the job all year. Then what? We're still in the same place with JP and a career backup is still our best QB because JP has no time to develop.

Please, for the love of God, put JP back in there. Sure, it's painful to watch now, but this is no Super Bowl team and that should be the only goal of every team...to win the big one. By playing Holcomb now, we could be setting ourselves back for next year too.

Best-case scenario is that we win this week despite Holcomb's terrible play, and they'lll come to their senses and put JP back in there.

:10: :10: :10: :10: :10: :10:

I couldn't have said this any better.

[justasportsfan]

I'm just going to agree to disagree. You have your view, I got mine. I'd rather bank on JP, that's just me.no problem. I'd rather give the rest of the team a chance than give up. No one gave the Pats a chance to win their first sb. Anything can happen in the playoffs but you at least have to make it there first and the best way to get there is play your best players. The players that give you the best chance. After last Sunday, we know that Kelly gives us the best chance. That's just coming from people that watched the game. The rest of the team who practice w/ both JP and Kelly seem to think so.

[Iehoshua]

With Drew, I say we’re 4-1 right now!
We still beat Houston and Miami. Tampa still eats us alive and Drew looks terrible in that game.
With Willis going for 140 yards, Drew makes enough plays to beat Atlanta! Those 2 missed bombs early, Drew doesn’t miss those.
And I think that we win that close NO’s game because Drew hits a few more passes.
That being said, I think with Drew, we struggle in Oakland and NE and probably are at 5-3 at the break.
That's a nice fantasy you have there. Too bad it's nothing more than speculation.

[Mr. Cynical]

What exactly are we sacrificing? A few more wins? Who cares? It's all about the Super Bowl and we are no Super Bowl team.

:up:

Wow, you are on a roll today. :D

My thoughts EXACTLY.

[Iehoshua]

no problem. I'd rather give the rest of the team a chance than give up. No one gave the Pats a chance to win their first sb. Anything can happen in the playoffs but you at least have to make it there first and the best way to get there is play your best players. The players that give you the best chance. After last Sunday, we know that Kelly gives us the best chance. That's just coming from people that watched the game. The rest of the team who practice w/ both JP and Kelly seem to think so.
I don't see JP starting as 'giving up', let me make that clear.

I see JP's development as a road toward great places for the team, places they could not reach with Bledsoe or Holcomb.

I also do not annoint Holcomb after one win. Miami gave us the best chance to win that game, as I saw it. Holcomb made some plays along with some pretty big gaffes.

[justasportsfan]

I don't see JP starting as 'giving up', let me make that clear.
I see JP's development as a road toward great places for the team, places they could not reach with Bledsoe or Holcomb.
I also do not annoint Holcomb after one win. Miami gave us the best chance to win that game, as I saw it. Holcomb made some plays along with some pretty big gaffes.but you lessen our chances to win going w/ JP and the other players have a problem w/ that. What kind of message will this management send these vets if we take away their best chance to win? "screw you, we'll go with this qb who may or may not succeed" . I'm not annointing Kelly either but compared to what I've seen both at camp and last Sunday, Kelly gives us the best chance to win. The vets also think so.

You're just taking a shot in the dark w/ JP. Until we have no shot I say go w/ Holcomb.

[Iehoshua]

Losman won't get better sitting and watching. I also believe the players would be better off rallying behind him than rooting for his benching. I don't agree with their philosophy. Instead of pointing fingers they should ask what they can do better and leave the coaching decisions up to the coaches. Anything with more than one head is a freak. If they let all the vets decide the direction of the team instead of the coaching staff, it's anarchy.

[Patrick76777]

That's a nice fantasy you have there. Too bad it's nothing more than speculation.
Ummmm, Yeah! I’m afraid it would have to be! See Drew’s not on our team, so it would be tough to make it a fact!


It’s also my opinion! If that’s what you meant!

I’m not wrong often, but it’s happened once or twice. I don’t care if you don’t agree with me.

[Patrick76777]

Hey, sometimes you can hurt a QB’s development from yanking him too early!


But there are times when you can hurt a WB’s development by letting him get his behind kicked in for too long!


I thought it was a nice time for a change.

[justasportsfan]

Losman won't get better sitting and watching. I also believe the players would be better off rallying behind him than rooting for his benching. I don't agree with their philosophy. Instead of pointing fingers they should ask what they can do better and leave the coaching decisions up to the coaches. Anything with more than one head is a freak. If they let all the vets decide the direction of the team instead of the coaching staff, it's anarchy.
the players are not rooting for him to be benched. They just want to win. They aren't saying JP sucks, they are saying we have a better chance w/ a vet because JP isn't ready. There's no backstabbing going on, you're making it up.

[Iehoshua]

Ummmm, Yeah! I’m afraid it would have to be! See Drew’s not on our team, so it would be tough to make it a fact!
It’s also my opinion! If that’s what you meant!
I’m not wrong often, but it’s happened once or twice. I don’t care if you don’t agree with me.
I wasn't asking you to care, but preaching that the team would be in some great position if Bledsoe was still here is not a very informed opinion. Our offensive line is currently backups and fill-ins. Drew NEEDS a GREAT line to even be semi-successful. Drew staying here would make the line worse, not better.

[Mr. Cynical]

But you already know this early what our chances are w/ Kelly?

Putting aside the question of whether this team has a shot (I personally think it doesn't), we know ALOT more about KH than we do about JP.

KH has been a career backup QB for 10 years. If KH was capable of leading a team, don't you think it would have happened by now? Why didn't another team fight for him in the offseason to START on their team? Heck, even we didn't bring him in to start. He was brought in to be a backup.

All we know about JP is that he has not played well in 4 games. That's it. And as LOG so eloquently put it (this thread btw has earned him my total respect), why d**k around with a journeyman QB to maybe get a few more wins? I'm tired of waiting and using band-aids like Drew and KH. These guys are not the answer. JP may not be the answer either, but why waste yet another year not finding out?

[Earthquake Enyart]

I love it when Log lectures us.

Especially when he is wrong. :snicker:

[Iehoshua]

the players are not rooting for him to be benched. They just want to win. They aren't saying JP sucks, they are saying we have a better chance w/ a vet because JP isn't ready. There's no backstabbing going on, you're making it up.
How can JP be ready if he's not given a shot? Is 4 games all anyone gets?

Not saying it's backstabbing, I just don't think they have their heads on straight.

[justasportsfan]

Putting aside the question of whether this team has a shot (I personally think it doesn't), we know ALOT more about KH than we do about JP. ? no you don't.


KH has been a career backup QB for 10 years. If KH was capable of leading a team, don't you think it would have happened by now? Why didn't another team fight for him in the offseason to START on their team? Heck, even we didn't bring him in to start. He was brought in to be a backup. Gannon?


All we know about JP is that he has not played well in 4 games. That's it. And as LOG so eloquently put it (this thread btw has earned him my total respect), why d**k around with a journeyman QB to maybe get a few more wins? I'm tired of waiting and using band-aids like Drew and KH. These guys are not the answer. JP may not be the answer either, but why waste yet another year not finding out? you may not think we have a team that i playoff quality but our players do and I'm glad we have such players.

[Mr. Cynical]

you may not think we have a team that i playoff quality but our players do and I'm glad we have such players.

That's fine, but that still doesn't answer my points about KH.

[Iehoshua]

you may not think we have a team that i playoff quality but our players do and I'm glad we have such players.
I'm glad our players think that too, even if they are right or wrong. I don't want players who want to lose, however I also don't think it's up to the players to make personnel decisions either.

[Patrick76777]

I don’t think the O-line is that bad! We have the 6th leading rusher in the whole league. 3 yards away from being 5th overall. And he’s going 4.2 yards a carry!

I personally thought JP and Kelly both had decent time back there.

It’s gotten way too easy blame the o-line for everything. It’s always the easiest out. But then when JP’s throwing 4 yard outs, 5 yards over the WR’s head and going 3 and out almost every series, it’s hard for me to blame the line. Especially when you’re losing the game 19-3.

I don’t care what the blueprint was this year. If your offense can’t score 20 points let alone 7, You’re not going to win in this league a lot. You can’t expect your defense to hold teams under 13 points every week.

I’d put the blame on the QB and coaches before I went to the O-line.

As for my Bledsoe comment, I only used him because you brought him up. With any capable QB, we’re 4-1. We played well against Atlanta besides for the QB position. If we complete 4 or 5 key passes, we win that game.

[justasportsfan]

That's fine, but that still doesn't answer my points about KH. Were the 9er's wrong in giving a CFL back-up qb a shot? Garcia? Were the Bills wrong in giving Flutie a shot? He too was a journeyman and CFl player. How about Gannon?

What you fail to see is that we are almost in the same situation we were w/ Flutie and Rob. We got rid of the jouneyman/vet/Flutie in favor of the young one who was supposedly our future Rob.

[Iehoshua]

I don’t think the O-line is that bad! We have the 6th leading rusher in the whole league. 3 yards away from being 5th overall. And he’s going 4.2 yards a carry!
I personally thought JP and Kelly both had decent time back there.
It’s gotten way too easy blame the o-line for everything. It’s always the easiest out. But then when JP’s throwing 4 yard outs, 5 yards over the WR’s head and going 3 and out almost every series, it’s hard for me to blame the line. Especially when you’re losing the game 19-3.
I don’t care what the blueprint was this year. If your offense can’t score 20 points let alone 7, You’re not going to win in this league a lot. You can’t expect your defense to hold teams under 13 points every week.
I’d put the blame on the QB and coaches before I went to the O-line.
As for my Bledsoe comment, I only used him because you brought him up. With any capable QB, we’re 4-1. We played well against Atlanta besides for the QB position. If we complete 4 or 5 key passes, we win that game.
I appreciate where you're coming from, however there is a notable difference between run blocking and pass blocking. Bennie Anderson for instance, touted as a great run blocker, mediocre pass blocker... I believe the line is better suited for run blocking than pass blocking.

[justasportsfan]

I'm glad our players think that too, even if they are right or wrong. I don't want players who want to lose, however I also don't think it's up to the players to make personnel decisions either.they did not make the decisions. They just informed the coaches how they felt and JP state that JP was cool with that. If anything I think is gonna make JP work harder. Play smarter. JP has the talent but he obviusly doesn't have the smarts yet. I doubt he would've made that throw to Moulds in the endzone.

[Iehoshua]

Were the 9er's wrong in giving a CFL back-up qb a shot? Garcia? Were the Bills wrong in giving Flutie a shot? He too was a journeyman and CFl player. How about Gannon?
What you fail to see is that we are almost in the same situation we were w/ Flutie and Rob. We got rid of the jouneyman/vet/Flutie in favor of the young one who was supposedly our future Rob.
You may be 100% right, and in that case the team would be 100% better off to go with Holcomb. However we have to see a helluva lot more out of both Losman and Holcomb before assigning them Johnson/Flutie roles. We haven't scratched the scratch of the surface on either of them.

[Patrick76777]

I appreciate where you're coming from, however there is a notable difference between run blocking and pass blocking. Bennie Anderson for instance, touted as a great run blocker, mediocre pass blocker... I believe the line is better suited for run blocking than pass blocking.



Yeah, I know that, and like I said, I think they both had time. It's funny, Schopp and the Bulldog just started saying the same thing. Compared to the rest of the league, the line is not that bad, Pass or rush blocking.

[Mr. Cynical]

Were the 9er's wrong in giving a CFL back-up qb a shot? Garcia? Were the Bills wrong in giving Flutie a shot? He too was a journeyman and CFl player. How about Gannon?

What you fail to see is that we are almost in the same situation we were w/ Flutie and Rob. We got rid of the jouneyman/vet/Flutie in favor of the young one who was supposedly our future Rob.

So because Rob was a bust you think JP will be?

As for Flutie, as much as I liked him, where did he get us?

Garcia is a bad example. How many years in the NFL did he play before the 9ers gave him a shot? None. Therefore there is no history to judge like there is with KH.

Gannon is the only legitmate argument. Fair enough. So, you want to pin your hopes that a one in a million chance the he is another Gannon?

[justasportsfan]

You may be 100% right, and in that case the team would be 100% better off to go with Holcomb. However we have to see a helluva lot more out of both Losman and Holcomb before assigning them Johnson/Flutie roles. We haven't scratched the scratch of the surface on either of them.If it was preseason we'd have that luxury but it's regular season and we're can still make playoffs.

I would rather go to war w/ a used glock than a brand new BBgun even if they promised me that they will replace that bbgun w/ an M-16 but that's not guaranteed.

[Mr. Cynical]

If it was preseason we'd have that luxury but it's regular season and we're can still make playoffs.

I would rather go to war w/ a used glock than a brand new BBgun even if they promised me that they will replace that bbgun w/ an M-16 but that's not guaranteed.

We tried that w/ Drew for 3 years. Where did that get us?

[justasportsfan]

So because Rob was a bust you think JP will be?

As for Flutie, as much as I liked him, where did he get us?

Garcia is a bad example. How many years in the NFL did he play before the 9ers gave him a shot? None. Therefore there is no history to judge like there is with KH.

Gannon is the only legitmate argument. Fair enough. So, you want to pin your hopes that a one in a million chance the he is another Gannon?did you read my posts? Where did I say that he's gonna be a bust? I didn't say that but you cannot guarantee he won't be either .


Flutie didn't get us anywhere but he took us further than Rob ever did. I'd rather go the playoffs than to have never gone at all.

No it isn't, you called Kelly a journeyman qb who never had the weapons he has now. Garcia was not ontly a journeyman he was a CFL player.

[THATHURMANATOR]

Eli Manning 2004: 95-197 48.2% 1043 5.3ypt 6TD 9INT 55.4 Rating
JP Losman 2005: 45-94 47.9% 433 4.6ypt 1TD 2INT 55.8 Rating

So anyone that says JP is gonna suck is clearly speaking out of their rear end. Eli looked just as bad last year. The only thing that gives Eli the edge is that he had a coach who stuck with him. Unfortunately for JP, he has a bunch of selfish jerks as teammates and a clueless coach.

Yes, it was a short term win to play Holcomb, but in the long term, it could prove to be VERY BAD.

Let's say Holcomb plays just well enough to keep the job all year. Then what? We're still in the same place with JP and a career backup is still our best QB because JP has no time to develop.

Please, for the love of God, put JP back in there. Sure, it's painful to watch now, but this is no Super Bowl team and that should be the only goal of every team...to win the big one. By playing Holcomb now, we could be setting ourselves back for next year too.

Best-case scenario is that we win this week despite Holcomb's terrible play, and they'lll come to their senses and put JP back in there.

Good post.

[justasportsfan]

We tried that w/ Drew for 3 years. Where did that get us? We've tried going w/ JP where did it take us? We have an oppurtunity now , grab it. The bills are the only afce team that didn't make the playoffs this decade or century.

[lordofgun]

Good post.
I know it, thurm!

Again, if all you're after is a few more wins this year, by all means, start Holcomb!

If you want to find out if we have a franchise QB even if it means losing a few more games, JP is the way to go.

I guess some people are happy with a few more wins and finding out less about Losman. I'm not. I want to see what we have.

I couldn't care less whether we finish 5-11 or 8-8. A Super Bowl is all I care about.

Holcomb has had 10 years to prove he's a starting QB and still hasn't been able to do so. JP deserves more than 4 games.

[lordofgun]

We've tried going w/ JP where did it take us? We have an oppurtunity now , grab it. The bills are the only afce team that didn't make the playoffs this decade or century.
What exactly is the opportunity the Bills have?

[Mr. Cynical]

did you read my posts? Where did I say that he's gonna be a bust? I didn't say that but you cannot guarantee he won't be either.

So the wheel goes round and round. Circular argument, nobody wins. The only thing we do know is that we don't know. He hasn't played enough.


Flutie didn't get us anywhere but he took us further than Rob ever did. I'd rather go the playoffs than to have never gone at all.

Who cares if Flutie got us farther than Rob the bust? Again, you're using hindsight. Rob had his chance and failed. JP has only had 4 games. Apples and oranges at this point.


No it isn't, you called Kelly a journeyman qb who never had the weapons he has now. Garcia was not ontly a journeyman he was a CFL player.

I have no idea what you are trying to say here. I never said anything about weapons. What I said was KH has been in the NFL for 10 years and has not been able to hold a starting job. Garcia was in the CFL before coming to the NFL, so you can't compare their histories. We know what KH has done in the NFL. The 9ers had no idea what Garcia could do in the NFL because there was no data. They took a CHANCE, something that we should be doing with JP, given we don't know what he can do.

[lordofgun]

Oh, and one more thing...

Quit calling him Kelly. It's blasphemy.

[Mr. Cynical]

We've tried going w/ JP where did it take us?

If you consider playing him in a total of 4 games as "trying", then I don't know what to say. He played well in game 1, and not well in games 2-4. So that's really 3 games where they "tried".

[Mr. Cynical]

What exactly is the opportunity the Bills have?

Agreed. This is not a playoff team, no matter how much Kool-Aid you want to drink.

[lordofgun]

BTW, the original intent of this post was not to say whether or not Holcomb should start. Well, sort of...

But the main idea of this thread is that anyone who says that JP is going to suck, is a already a bust, etc. is simply throwing crap up in the air and hoping it sticks. There is no way to tell one way or another yet.

And I'd like to find out sooner than later.

And as to Willis and Evans needing to develop as well...they seem to be pretty well developed to me.

[justasportsfan]

What exactly is the opportunity the Bills have?opurtunity to make playoffs. That's all the players are asking for.

[lordofgun]

You know what's kind of ironic is that Eric Moulds complains that he hasn't had a franchise QB to throw him the ball, yet when Buffalo goes and gets a franchise QB, Moulds isn't patient enough to shut up and let him develop.

[Iehoshua]

If you consider playing him in a total of 4 games as "trying", then I don't know what to say. He played well in game 1, and not well in games 2-4. So that's really 3 games where they "tried".
Amen.

4 games isn't enough of a chance to determine ANYTHING. JP hasn't had a legitimate shot. They gave Bledsoe 3 years. They gave Rob a lot of time but he spent most of it injured since he's made of glass...

[justasportsfan]

If you consider playing him in a total of 4 games as "trying", then I don't know what to say. He played well in game 1, and not well in games 2-4. So that's really 3 games where they "tried". But you are so sure that KH is not going to take us anywhere after 1 win? JP played well against a texans team while Kelly played well against a top 10 D. You figure it out.

JP will have his time. Having him try and develop w/ an OL like ours may hurt him more than help him out.

[lordofgun]

opurtunity to make playoffs. That's all the players are asking for.
Not gonna happen. We've beat 2 bad teams this year.

Even if it does happen, I'm not happy with that. Holcomb and Super Bowl go together like Drew Bledsoe and clutch.

[justasportsfan]

You know what's kind of ironic is that Eric Moulds complains that he hasn't had a franchise QB to throw him the ball, yet when Buffalo goes and gets a franchise QB, Moulds isn't patient enough to shut up and let him develop.he's been patient long enough. If TD can guarantee Moulds will be here w/ a decent contract and that JP will be a success, he will be more patient.

[lordofgun]

This is the exact mentality I'm talking about. Do you think the Patriots are happy getting to the playoffs? No. It's Super Bowl or bust.

Why should we accept less?

[justasportsfan]

Not gonna happen. We've beat 2 bad teams this year.

Even if it does happen, I'm not happy with that. Holcomb and Super Bowl go together like Drew Bledsoe and clutch.Like I said, the players think so. I'd rather take playoffs now because if you don't give the players a chance to win they will take off for some other team that will who happens to also offer them more $$$ and we'll end up rebuilding again and by the time Jp's ready (if JP doesn't bust) Jp's contract will be up.

We don't know what the future holds but we cannot waste todays oppurtunity.Especially w/ the cap.

[Mr. Cynical]

But you are so sure that KH is not going to take us anywhere after 1 win?

I am more sure of that than I am of anything about JP. Again, KH has 10 years of history. JP has 4 games.

[lordofgun]

Like I said, the players think so. I'd rather take playoffs now because if you don't give the players a chance to win they will take off for some other team that will who happens to also offer them more $$$ and we'll end up rebuilding again and by the time Jp's ready (if JP doesn't bust) Jp's contract will be up.

We don't know what the future holds but we cannot waste todays oppurtuniy.
If you're satisfied with "making the playoffs" over developing our franchise QB, fine. But again, it's all about the SB for me.

If you honestly think the Bills can win a Super Bowl with Holcomb, then I can respect that. However, 10 years of history proves he can't lead us to a SB vs. 4 games for JP.

[Iehoshua]

Holcomb and Super Bowl go together like Drew Bledsoe and clutch.
:rofl:

:bf1:

[justasportsfan]

This is the exact mentality I'm talking about. Do you think the Patriots are happy getting to the playoffs? No. It's Super Bowl or bust.

Why should we accept less? going w/ an inexperienced player and tanking the season is not accepting less?

[Mr. Cynical]

going w/ an inexperienced player and tanking the season is not accepting less?

You mean going with the player we traded our #1 and other picks for 2 years ago to be our franchise QB? I dunno about you, but I don't want to wait 3 years (assuming he starts next year) to find out if we need to go QB shopping again.

[lordofgun]

going w/ an inexperienced player and tanking the season is not accepting less?
At the end of the year, here's how it's going to look:

Holcomb - 0 Super Bowl wins as starter
Losman - 0 Super Bowl wins as starter

I'd rather have Losman given those stats.

Our chance of winning a super bowl EVER with Holcomb is right around zero%. We don't know what our chances are with Losman, but if we play him, our chances of finding out sooner rather than later (and wasting future seasons finding out) is a lot better.

If you can honestly say that Holcomb will lead us to a SB victory, then I can honestly say I wish I had your faith.

[footballhottie]

i want to win now....

[Iehoshua]

If you can honestly say that Holcomb will lead us to a SB victory, then I can honestly say I wish I had your faith.
Another great statement, and I too, want some of that faith.

[justasportsfan]

If you're satisfied with "making the playoffs" over developing our franchise QB, fine. But again, it's all about the SB for me.

If you honestly think the Bills can win a Super Bowl with Holcomb, then I can respect that. However, 10 years of history proves he can't lead us to a SB vs. 4 games for JP.I want a sb but in case you missed it, he was getting killed during his development. Who's to say he won't learn anything by watching KH?

[Mr. Cynical]

Another great statement, and I too, want some of that faith.

Here ya go. :;

[Iehoshua]

i want to win now....
Win what? That's what you have to ask... Win a few extra regular season games, or win a Superbowl?

Any team can win in the regular season, a champion wins the Superbowl. I want to win a Superbowl quicker, not a few extra regular season games which will most likely not lead to a championship.

[lordofgun]

i want to win now....
So do I...I want to win a Super Bowl now. Too bad that's unrealistic this year. And that's all that matters to me.

[justasportsfan]

At the end of the year, here's how it's going to look:

Holcomb - 0 Super Bowl wins as starter
Losman - 0 Super Bowl wins as starter

I'd rather have Losman given those stats.

Our chance of winning a super bowl EVER with Holcomb is right around zero%. We don't know what our chances are with Losman, but if we play him, our chances of finding out sooner rather than later (and wasting future seasons finding out) is a lot better.

If you can honestly say that Holcomb will lead us to a SB victory, then I can honestly say I wish I had your faith.If you can guarantee me that JP will lead us to a sb before his contract is up, I say go for it.


We don't know what the future holds w/ the cap era. We may end up having to rebuild and start all over again if we don't make playoffs this year and next year because our core players left because they decided to play for teams that give them a chance to win.

I will not waste any oppurtunity to win now.

[lordofgun]

If you can guarantee me that JP will lead us to a sb before his contract is up, I say go for it.


We don't know what the future holds w/ the cap era. We may end up having to rebuild and start all over again if we don't make playoffs this year and next year because our core players left because they decided to play for teams that give them a chance to win.

I will not waste any oppurtunity to win now.
Win what? A Super Bowl?

And of course I can't guarantee that Losman will win a SB. I can guarantee that Holcomb won't.

[dplus47]

I want a sb but in case you missed it, he was getting killed during his development. Who's to say he won't learn anything by watching KH? justa, i agree with you. and i'm a finfan (though not the one in your sig). the bills have playmakers on both sides of the ball. that gives you a chance in every game. but only if you get above-average QB play. you can get that from holcomb. the problem i see with "developing" j.p. now is: by the time he develops, you're going to need to develop several new starters on D and a new #1 WR. pennington sat for 2 years in NY and it didn't affect his confidence. buffalo has enough players to compete right now. and you can't win a SB unless you make the playoffs. until you're out of the playoffs, you have to go with the guy who gives you a chance to win. but really, i wish we could go back in time and insert j.p. as the starter for last sunday's game!

[justasportsfan]

Win what? That's what you have to ask... Win a few extra regular season games, or win a Superbowl?
Any team can win in the regular season, a champion wins the Superbowl. I want to win a Superbowl quicker, not a few extra regular season games which will most likely not lead to a championship. that's exactly what the raiders were thinking when they went w/ Gannon instead of a younger qb. NOT. If JP was another Big Ben go for it. Right now he's not even Kordell Stewart.

[Mr. Cynical]

If JP was another Big Ben go for it. Right now he's not even Kordell Stewart.

4 games.

[Iehoshua]

that's exactly what the raiders were thinking when they went w/ Gannon instead of a younger qb. NOT. If JP was another Big Ben go for it. Right now he's not even Kordell Stewart.
The Raiders have a lot of rings with Gannon too...

NOT.
;)

[justasportsfan]

Win what? A Super Bowl?

And of course I can't guarantee that Losman will win a SB. I can guarantee that Holcomb won't. can you guarantee a playoff beth w/ JP? TD might not even be here and we may be back to rebuilding again. Do you know what Jp's future is gonna be like if that happens?


Lets tank the season and throw the dice on the future. I'm sure that's what our vets want. When they leave and we end up drafting players, I hope Jp will be patient w/ the new guys too and not pack up and leave the bills to dry.

[justasportsfan]

4 games.
KH, 1 game :up:

[justasportsfan]

The Raiders have a lot of rings with Gannon too...

NOT.
;) you're missing my point. You brought up the jouneyman thing. We don't know how far KH can take us either. You've already given up on him. Maybe we should hire Wade back since some of the fans think just like him. :D

[Iehoshua]

KH, 1 game :up:
Incorrect.

KH - 9 years. + 1 game. :up:

[lordofgun]

justa, i agree with you. and i'm a finfan

Poor justa. :D

Good luck with Frerotte, man! At least you'll barely miss the playoffs with him as opposed to going 3-13 with Feeley! I can understand that thinking when it comes to the fins because all of your QBs are proven trash as opposed to JP who is unproven, but has only played 4 games.

Makes sense for the fish, not so much for the Bills.

[lordofgun]

you're missing my point. You brought up the jouneyman thing. We don't know how far KH can take us either. You've already given up on him. Maybe we should hire Wade back since some of the fans think just like him. :D
huh? If I remember correctly, Wade waivered back and forth between starters just like Mularkey is doing!

I would have stayed the course!

[Iehoshua]

justa, i agree with you. and i'm a finfan
If this isn't a red flag, I don't know what is...
:chuckle:

[The_Philster]

Great thread, LOG...couldn't agree more
can you guarantee a playoff beth w/ JP? .No..but can you guarantee one with Holcomb? Like Log said in this thread...like I said last week..the goal is to win a Super Bowl....anything short of that is a failure. Holcomb won't plug up enough holes in this team by himself to win one...he's a solid QB who could win one with an excellent supporting cast...but we don't have one. So we have 2 choices...continue to play Holcomb...set back JP's development and maybe miss out on a QB of the future if this one doesn't pan out...OR...play JP and find out if he's gonna be a good one

[chernobylwraiths]

Eli Manning 2004: 95-197 48.2% 1043 5.3ypt 6TD 9INT 55.4 Rating
JP Losman 2005: 45-94 47.9% 433 4.6ypt 1TD 2INT 55.8 Rating

So anyone that says JP is gonna suck is clearly speaking out of their rear end. Eli looked just as bad last year. The only thing that gives Eli the edge is that he had a coach who stuck with him. Unfortunately for JP, he has a bunch of selfish jerks as teammates and a clueless coach.

Yes, it was a short term win to play Holcomb, but in the long term, it could prove to be VERY BAD.

Let's say Holcomb plays just well enough to keep the job all year. Then what? We're still in the same place with JP and a career backup is still our best QB because JP has no time to develop.

Please, for the love of God, put JP back in there. Sure, it's painful to watch now, but this is no Super Bowl team and that should be the only goal of every team...to win the big one. By playing Holcomb now, we could be setting ourselves back for next year too.

Best-case scenario is that we win this week despite Holcomb's terrible play, and they'lll come to their senses and put JP back in there.


Well, at least SOME people get it, although I don't think it is a clueless coach. I think someone else made that decision.

[chernobylwraiths]

The giants were in a rebuilding mode w/ one of the youngest line up in the league. They could grow together as a team. We could've done that with JP since he has Evans and Willis. Try telling that to Moulds, Fletcher, Spikes, Adams, Milloy, Vincent , though. etc.
We had a D , ST and running game that is playoff calibre. By the time JP gets ready that ST and D will probably be disbanded by then. Clements could pull a Winfield and say "I want to play for a contender"

Correction, we THOUGHT we had a playoff caliber defense, but that has proven to be untrue, especially without Spikes.

For the good of the team, JP needs to learn now.

[chernobylwraiths]

huh? If I remember correctly, Wade waivered back and forth between starters just like Mularkey is doing!

I would have stayed the course!

He waivered until one of them kept winning. Then he was trumped for the playoff game and told to start the guy with more "potential".

[LtBillsFan66]

That's a nice fantasy you have there. Too bad it's nothing more than speculation.
So is every frikkin thing with the Bledsoe, JP, Holcomb topic/debate.

[chernobylwraiths]

that's exactly what the raiders were thinking when they went w/ Gannon instead of a younger qb. NOT. If JP was another Big Ben go for it. Right now he's not even Kordell Stewart.

JP doesn't have three of the things that Big Ben has:
1) he doesn't have Big Ben's size
2) he doesn't have Big Ben's O line
3) he doesn't have Big Ben's staff who will let him learn (of course this one is only a guess since he hasn't lost much, mainly because of number 2)

[Mr. Cynical]

If this isn't a red flag, I don't know what is...
:chuckle:

:rofl:

[justasportsfan]

Incorrect.

KH - 9 years. + 1 game. :up: he didn't have Moulds and co. in Cleveland.

[justasportsfan]

3) he doesn't have Big Ben's staff who will let him learn (of course this one is only a guess since he hasn't lost much, mainly because of number 2)Aha! Ben wasn't given the job. He ended up w/ it because of injury to Maddox. Only then did they find out that Ben was ready. We handed JP the job and now that we know he isn't ready, we'll give it to him anyways. Screw the entire season.

[justasportsfan]

Great thread, LOG...couldn't agree moreNo..but can you guarantee one with Holcomb? Like Log said in this thread...like I said last week..the goal is to win a Super Bowl....anything short of that is a failure. Holcomb won't plug up enough holes in this team by himself to win one...he's a solid QB who could win one with an excellent supporting cast...but we don't have one. So we have 2 choices...continue to play Holcomb...set back JP's development and maybe miss out on a QB of the future if this one doesn't pan out...OR...play JP and find out if he's gonna be a good one I cannot guarantee a playoff birth w/ Kelly but I'm sure we won't make it there w/ JP throwing 74 yds per game. If there is one thing I know for sure is that, KH gives us the best chance.


How about we get rid of SAm Adams right now and develop Sape ? :crap:

[justasportsfan]

huh? If I remember correctly, Wade waivered back and forth between starters just like Mularkey is doing!

I would have stayed the course!what I meant is that Wade gave up early even though we were still mathematically had a chance to make playoffs.

We did stay on course w/ Rob, by getting rid of the old journeyman. How did that pan out?

[Iehoshua]

How about we get rid of SAm Adams right now and develop Sape ? :crap:
Sam Adams isn't a journeyman DT. He's a starter who has played high caliber defense all his career. If Holcomb was a starting QB for more than 14 games in his 9 year career then it would be a more accurate analogy.

[ChaelTD]

We have a much better chance of winning the next few games with Holcomb. Course we have a much better chance of winning during the next few seasons if we leave Losman in there and let him learn the ropes. Gotta have patience with the young QB's. Alex Smith just had a terrible game last weekend, but Im sure the niners arent gonna give up on him yet.

[justasportsfan]

Sam Adams isn't a journeyman DT. He's a starter who has played high caliber defense all his career. If Holcomb was a starting QB for more than 14 games in his 9 year career then it would be a more accurate analogy. he's old. Sape is young an needs experience to develop :snicker:

KH did a good job just like Sam last weekend didn't he? Yet you're ready to give upon him.


Our running D is hurting so I take it , let's not take the best DT we have but when your passing game is hurting , you'll take our best passer away?

[Iehoshua]

he's old. Sape is young an needs experience to develop :snicker:
KH did a good job just like Sam last weekend didn't he? Yet you're ready to give upon him.
Our running D is hurting so I take it , let's not take the best DT we have but when your passing game is hurting , you'll take our best passer away?
You're not changing your opinion and I'm not changing mine, now we're arguing for the sake of argument.
:chat:

[justasportsfan]

Course we have a much better chance of winning during the next few seasons if we leave Losman in there and let him learn the ropes.. That remains to be seen just like it remains to be seen how far KH can take us.

If only somone has a crystal ball that can tell me that JP will take us to the promise land, I will tank the season. I won't even care what our Vets say. I won't care if they leave because we didn't have faith in them.


We will rebuild for another 3 years finding players who will have faith in this organization who keeps planning about the future w/ no plans of winning now.

But wait, what if JP is ready and Willis is gone by then? We will groom another young rb and tell JP to screw himself and wait for that young rb until he's ready just like we told our vets now.

[justasportsfan]

Your not changing your opinion and I'm not changing mine, now we're arguing for the sake of argument.
:chat:i know that. I was merely responding toa post that you quoted me on :D.

[EDS]

The giants were in a rebuilding mode w/ one of the youngest line up in the league. They could grow together as a team. We could've done that with JP since he has Evans and Willis. Try telling that to Moulds, Fletcher, Spikes, Adams, Milloy, Vincent , though. etc.
We had a D , ST and running game that is playoff calibre. By the time JP gets ready that ST and D will probably be disbanded by then. Clements could pull a Winfield and say "I want to play for a contender"

I am sure last year that Tiki Barber, Michael Strahan, Amani Toomer, Michael Barrow, Keith Hamilton and the other "young" players comprising the giants line up agreed.

[TacklingDummy]

Alex Smith just had a terrible game last weekend, but Im sure the niners arent gonna give up on him yet.

Does Alex Smith have a Moulds/Evans/McGahee playing on offesne with him?

49ers have alot more problems then a rookie QB thats gonna struggle probably forever with the 49ers.

Reading threads about JP is like reading threads 5 years ago about Rob Johnson. And where did that get the Bills?

Tank the whole season just so the Bills can see if 1 player JP will ever amount to anything. That's a awesome idea.

We'll see how many FA will want to stay with Buffalo or sign with Buffalo when they are consistent losers.

[justasportsfan]

I am sure last year that Tiki Barber, Michael Strahan, Amani Toomer, Michael Barrow, Keith Hamilton and the other "young" players comprising the giants line up agreed.they we're rebuilding under their NEW coach. Our players are tired of waiting for success under TD. How much longer are we gonna be patient w/ TD's moves to develop into successful results?

If we don't makeplayoffs this year and next year, do you think TD and Mularkey are gonna still be here?We're gonna be back to rebuilding again and then what?

[justasportsfan]

Does Alex Smith have a Moulds/Evans/McGahee playing on offesne with him?
49ers have alot more problems then a rookie QB thats gonna struggle probably forever with the 49ers.
Reading threads about JP is like reading threads 5 years ago about Rob Johnson. And where did that get the Bills?
Tank the whole season just so the Bills can see if 1 player JP will ever amount to anything. That's a awesome idea.
We'll see how many FA will want to stay with Buffalo or sign with Buffalo when they are consistent losers.:up: but I don't think JP is the next Robosack.

[chernobylwraiths]

they we're rebuilding under their NEW coach. Our players are tired of waiting for success under TD. How much longer are we gonna be patient w/ TD's moves to develop into successful results?

If we don't makeplayoffs this year and next year, do you think TD and Mularkey are gonna still be here?We're gonna be back to rebuilding again and then what?

We need to play JP so we have a chance next year. Isn't Mularkey considered a somewhat new coach?

So, you are saying Holcomb is our QB for the next TWO seasons now?

[justasportsfan]

We need to play JP so we have a chance next year. Isn't Mularkey considered a somewhat new coach?
So, you are saying Holcomb is our QB for the next TWO seasons now?

We weren't rebuilding when MM came in. We knew how far Drew could take us, which is why we got rid of him but we don't know about KH.

We do know how far JP can take us, 74 yds a game.


Maybe I am looking at things from our vets standpoint. One things for sure, if I were Clements and the team didn't give me a chance to win because they keep making player moves that hasn't resulted in anything in years, I'll leave for another team that is dedicated to winning NOW and will offer me more $$$.


Didn't Spikes leave the bengals to be w/ the bills for less $$$ because he wanted to win? I wonder if he'll feel the same about the bills once his contract is up especially since the coaches don't have faith in our vets. Tanking the season to develop a player which sends our vets a message that "we have no faith in you to take us anywhere , so we'll just develop our young qb" . Nice vote of confidence.

[RedEyE]

No Super Bowl victory = a bad season

We have no shot at a super bowl this year, so let's develop our franchise QB.

The same people who are already saying JP sucks are probably the same people who get trashed on a Sunday Night and wonder why they get fired on monday.

They're the same people who cheat on their wife for the momentary pleasure and then lose their family.

They're the same people who eat McDonalds every day because it tastes good, only to have a heart attack when they turn 40.

They're the same people who play video games all day and then complain they don't have a job, a life, or a future.

They're the same people who sleep with prostitutes and wonder why their parts itch a week later.

Momentary pleasure < Long-term pleasure

Agreed :bf1:

[kinigirly]

thank you lordofgun...i thought i was the only person with a team mentality. i understand the vets are on their way out and want to win a SB. but they've had a decade to achieve their goals. this is not the Moulds show, it is a collective team and therefor you [I]play for the team[I], the team doesn't play for you. the bills have chosen JP as their investment for the future and every team member should support this. i don't know what the vets were thinking this year when they thought they were gonna win a SB. you should support the best interest of your team and the team needs to groom their new quarterback. the vets needs to stop being a bunch of *****ing whiners on their way out. show some team pride and be a mentor to the new kids taking over the team. and what's with all the stuff about JP being a loudmouth and stuff? from all the audios and videos i've seen from JP he's been nothing but positive and understanding. he's admitted yes he's frustrated, mad and embarassed but also that he respects the decision. how about the vets do the same and show some respect for their new qb??

[BillsFever21]

Some people just have pipe dreams that we will make the playoffs when we don't have a chance. Put JP back in and find out what he can do over the season.

[chernobylwraiths]

We weren't rebuilding when MM came in. We knew how far Drew could take us, which is why we got rid of him but we don't know about KH.
We do know how far JP can take us, 74 yds a game.
Maybe I am looking at things from our vets standpoint. One things for sure, if I were Clements and the team didn't give me a chance to win because they keep making player moves that hasn't resulted in anything in years, I'll leave for another team that is dedicated to winning NOW and will offer me more $$$.
Didn't Spikes leave the bengals to be w/ the bills for less $$$ because he wanted to win? I wonder if he'll feel the same about the bills once his contract is up especially since the coaches don't have faith in our vets. Tanking the season to develop a player which sends our vets a message that "we have no faith in you to take us anywhere , so we'll just develop our young qb" . Nice vote of confidence.

We dumped Bledsoe after a 9-7 season. It was an incredibly stupid move to throw all the responsibility of the team on the shoulders of a first year player/starter, but that is what most of the people here, including you, wanted. Now you want to completely give up the team because JP has struggled in his first four games against two of the better defenses in the NFC on one of the best pass rushing defenses. On top of all of JP's struggles, the defense hasn't looked anything close to playoff caliber.

What you suggest is to give the team over to the guy we picked up as a backup and hope he can make the playoffs. Because if he can't, then we have to try all over again next season with JP and give him maybe FIVE games this time.

[YardRat]

how about the vets do the same and show some respect for their new qb??

Respect is earned, not given. If JP had actually won the job (or even had any kind of proven track record) instead of having it handed it to him, the vets might believe in him more than they do.

[Mr. Cynical]

We do know how far JP can take us, 74 yds a game.

4 games.

[Dozerdog]

If Holcombe can win under center- then keep him in there. I don't see the need to rush JP Losman into the starting role. He's under contract until 2008 or 2009 I beleive- so what's the rush?

I think 4 games is waaayyyy to early to jump on the dump JP train. But I also don't see the need to make him an NFL calibre starter by the end of this season either.

Too bad we may not have as soft a schedule like we did last year- I hope the Bills get way ahead in a few games this year (like last) and be able to get JP into a contest.

If the Bills fall out of playoff contention- get him back in there. It's obvious he's got talent- and It's obvious he's in over his head. get him in at a slower pace- and give him a much simpler playbook (run 60-65% of the time)

[CanaanVtBillsFan]

LORD OF GUN

I didn't even scroll through the posts I just read yours
and you really hit a nerve

YOUR SO RIGHT

OK I KNOW THATS WHY YOUR THE LORD LOL

It is all about the ring and yes we aren't built to win it yet
Maybe possibly JP will come around from this benching, but honestly poeple won't like this statement
I felt that way with Rob Johnson
wasn't he our "Starter" and didn't he get benched for lack of play yes I also know the guy was beat up from getting sacked so much by guys that seemed to just let the D get through to him
Damn Butler gave up a first and fourth for Rob
What did we give up for Flutie?
DiD Flutie get us a ring?
Yes Please don't bash me and tell me how bad Johnson Sucked I know this and this is MY POINT

Losman from the looks of what he showed seems to I'm only saying "seems" to suck with no real concrete long term proof

I always felt the O Line players played like crap for Rob then our of the holes for Flutie
Call me a pansy or whatever , but I felt bad for the guy

So are the Bills going to play currently out of the ass's for Holcomb?

you know Moulds will dive to the moon now the Holcomb got him his TD
Will he or did he show that for JP

Buffalo seems to have a way of hardening some hearts on the team and losing people that could be key if worked and dealt with.
Possibly this could all stem from the coaching staff?

That 98 season with Johnson he played the first four games and got beat up bad left us with a 1-3 record
Then Flutie came in for 11 games(Johnson wasn't that hurt) and yes got us a wild card berth with his 8-3 record
Then Johnson finishes the year with a great game and a win
So The "Starter" goes 2-3
The backup 8-3
The back up after much dispute arguements or whatever lost the playoff game for us (INT before the half of Miami and the fumble at the end of the game) yes there were the other factors Andre Reeds Penalty ejection, but Kurt Shultz changed all that

"Hope was alive when Kurt Schulz recovered the kick, giving the Bills the ball back at their own 31 with 1:30 left. They moved to the Miami 5 with :17 left. On first down at the 5-yard line, Flutie pumped to throw, cocked his arm again and was leveled by Armstrong, knocking the ball loose. Defensive lineman Shane Burton recovered, and the Dolphins nearly trampled Flutie as they celebrated. It was the Bills 4th lost fumble of the day clinched Miami's wild 24-17 wild-card playoff victory."

this from the Billszone history

WHAT IF the "starter" played that game?

So it's such a catch 22 saying you go with what works , but ultimately why do you then assign people starting roles, leader etc if that all is subject to change especially when the chips are down or your having a few bad outings

Damn they are human no Super Human

Do I make sense probably not

And I'm sure many will let me know

I feel bad for Losman
I see people saying what a cocky kid
then i see and agree with the people who say "What the Hell else do you want"?
You can't tell me Kelly wasn't a cocky SOB
Please he may have know how to speak and address the media but on the field and in person at least my experiences with him showed a major cocky man
And he deserved that right because the dude was good

SO FOR NOW
I'm numb

PEACE

[Dozerdog]

Eli Manning 2004: 95-197 48.2% 1043 5.3ypt 6TD 9INT 55.4 Rating
JP Losman 2005: 45-94 47.9% 433 4.6ypt 1TD 2INT 55.8 Rating

OK, let's compare...for those afflicted with ADD...
.

soooo.....Manning and JP want o go ride bikes?

[Historian]

Holcomb has had 10 years to prove he's a starting QB and still hasn't been able to do so. JP deserves more than 4 games.

Not to mention, you have to wonder about a guys cojones, who is content to sign a contract to play backup to a rookie.

I'm with Log in principal. This is not a Super Bowl team. Especially with it's best player on IR.

The problem now is...if you yank Holcomb and reinstate JP, your organization looks like the Keystone Cops.

This is just a guess...but I think what the Bills were thinking, was that if they could get a spark, and win these two divisional games, it puts them back in the hunt, and they stay with the 'hot' hand. (Relatively speaking). If they lose either game at home, odds are that the playoffs are basically out of reach, and they go back to the kid to continue his development.

But that's just my theory.

[Historian]

It's obvious he's got talent- and It's obvious he's in over his head. get him in at a slower pace- and give him a much simpler playbook (run 60-65% of the time)

Amen to that!

Where's the 'power running game' we have been promised?

Someone needs to grab Clements by the headset, and teach him to run th ball, as opposed to having your rookie QB open a game with five straight passes.

It's as if they're setting him up to fail.

[justasportsfan]

Some people just have pipe dreams that we will make the playoffs when we don't have a chance. Put JP back in and find out what he can do over the season. The div. leader is 1 game ahead of us. Bills fans are stupid for thinking we had a chance last year after a 0-4 start. We should've just given up.



you are right. let's just give up. It's always easier that way. Why even bother playing? Let's just give up the season. Let's bench Willis , Evans and the other young potentials this year so they don't get injured and we'll have them healthy and ready for next year since we have nothing to play for other than developing one player.

This is exactly why Spikes came to play for the bills, because we don't like to win. We just develop players.

[Michael82]

Kelly Holcomb should be pulled after his next loss or if he struggles badly. JP Losman should finish the season out by himself then and the coach should admit to the fans that JP Losman is going to develop thru the year and then hopefully we will be like the Bengals and Giants next year. We gotta bite the bullet eventually.

I still say that the best thing to happen would be for Holcomb to suck and the Bills to get to 2-5. That would basically end our season and let us focus on developing the future. However, if he doesn't suck...I wouldn't be upset if he stays the starter for the whole season...but the Bills HAVE to make the playoffs. Once they lose another 2 games, they gotta concede and bite the bullet with JP, IMO.

[Patrick76777]

If Holcombe can win under center- then keep him in there. I don't see the need to rush JP Losman into the starting role. He's under contract until 2008 or 2009 I beleive- so what's the rush?

I think 4 games is waaayyyy to early to jump on the dump JP train. But I also don't see the need to make him an NFL calibre starter by the end of this season either.

Too bad we may not have as soft a schedule like we did last year- I hope the Bills get way ahead in a few games this year (like last) and be able to get JP into a contest.

If the Bills fall out of playoff contention- get him back in there. It's obvious he's got talent- and It's obvious he's in over his head. get him in at a slower pace- and give him a much simpler playbook (run 60-65% of the time)

As is the case time and time again, Dozer is the only voice of reason in here!

Point 1. Why give up!

LOG says that there is NO way we win a Superbowl this year! He’s probably right! But who just gives up????? “Ah, we can’t win the Superbowl this year, so we’re just going to go thru the motions. Basically a 16 game practice schedule for one guy!”

It’s Nonsense! It’s unfair to every other guy on that team and every fan, even if they don’t agree!

What happens if you let him play all season and he still doesn’t get it? Do you do the same next year?

The fact is, you still have a shot at the playoffs. Believe it or not. We’re 2-0 in the AFC and 1-0 in the East. If we win Sunday over a bad Jets team we’re 2-0 in the division and 3-0 in the AFC. And if New England loses to Denver, not only will we be in first place in the AFC, but only 4 teams in the AFC are guaranteed to be ahead of us in the standings.

Don’t know if you guys noticed but our main comp for playoff spots are all struggling also! We’re not the only team with problems. Jacksonville can’t win, SD can’t win, New England and the Jets have injury’s all over. An opportunity could open up here, why not take it.

Point 2 It’s not going to kill the guy!

Who says that leaving a QB out there while he’s struggling is good for his future? Letting him sit and learn and grow up for a 2nd year is not going to kill this guy’s career! It’s antiquated football thinking! Guys have done it before!

[LtBillsFan66]

I couldn't agree more with dozer and pat.

[justasportsfan]

People easily forget the Music City miracle. Now that it's all said and done we know that the midget gave us the better chance to win. who knows how far this team could've gone if we put in the qb that gave us the best chance to win that year?

We'll never know now because we decided to go w/ the "future" . Let's repeat the same thing and give up instead of trying to find out how far KH can take this team.

[TacklingDummy]

People easily forget the Music City miracle. Now that it's all said and done we know that the midget gave us the better chance to win. who knows how far this team could've gone if we put in the qb that gave us the best chance to win that year?

We had that game won with the Bills "QB of the future" Mr. Potential.

Wasn't his fault the special teams blew it.

I know I know, Mr. Potential gave up a saftey and set up another easy 7 points. But don't you remember that awesome run he had with one shoe on?

[EDS]

they we're rebuilding under their NEW coach. Our players are tired of waiting for success under TD. How much longer are we gonna be patient w/ TD's moves to develop into successful results?

If we don't makeplayoffs this year and next year, do you think TD and Mularkey are gonna still be here?We're gonna be back to rebuilding again and then what?

Um, the Bills had a new coach last year too. If the JP Losman wasn't injured chances are the Bills would have done the same thing as the Giants last year. Giants had one magical run to the Super Bowl but have not done much else in years, but no one is calling for their GMs head.

[justasportsfan]

Um, the Bills had a new coach last year too. If the JP Losman wasn't injured chances are the Bills would have done the same thing as the Giants last year. Giants had one magical run to the Super Bowl but have not done much else in years, but no one is calling for their GMs head.one sb magical year and a playoff appearance. How many of that have we achieved w/ TD? are we gonna give TD until the next decade of personnel moves w/ no playoff appearances? Looks like Wanny had more success as a GM at Miami than TD did here in Buffalo so far. Yikes.

[lordofgun]

As is the case time and time again, Dozer is the only voice of reason in here!

Point 1. Why give up!

LOG says that there is NO way we win a Superbowl this year! He’s probably right! But who just gives up????? “Ah, we can’t win the Superbowl this year, so we’re just going to go thru the motions. Basically a 16 game practice schedule for one guy!”

It’s Nonsense! It’s unfair to every other guy on that team and every fan, even if they don’t agree!

What happens if you let him play all season and he still doesn’t get it? Do you do the same next year?

The fact is, you still have a shot at the playoffs. Believe it or not. We’re 2-0 in the AFC and 1-0 in the East. If we win Sunday over a bad Jets team we’re 2-0 in the division and 3-0 in the AFC. And if New England loses to Denver, not only will we be in first place in the AFC, but only 4 teams in the AFC are guaranteed to be ahead of us in the standings.

Don’t know if you guys noticed but our main comp for playoff spots are all struggling also! We’re not the only team with problems. Jacksonville can’t win, SD can’t win, New England and the Jets have injury’s all over. An opportunity could open up here, why not take it.

Point 2 It’s not going to kill the guy!

Who says that leaving a QB out there while he’s struggling is good for his future? Letting him sit and learn and grow up for a 2nd year is not going to kill this guy’s career! It’s antiquated football thinking! Guys have done it before!
No we don't have a shot at the playoffs, IMO. Sure, we're 2-3. Have you actually watched this team play?? Giving up hundreds of yards on the ground, and besides quarter 1 last week, being able to do absolutely NOTHING on offense.

The Giants and Bengals thought my line of thinking was correct last year. I bet they're happy with their decision this year.

[lordofgun]

If the Bills really believe in this guy, they should be willing to sacrifice a few wins this year for what could be a dozen+ years as the leader of our team.

[justasportsfan]

No we don't have a shot at the playoffs, IMO. Sure, we're 2-3. Have you actually watched this team play?? Giving up hundreds of yards on the ground, and besides quarter 1 last week, being able to do absolutely NOTHING on offense.

The Giants and Bengals thought my line of thinking was correct last year. I bet they're happy with their decision this year.you are making assumptions instead of waiting for facts. The minute we know for sure we're out of it, then go w/ JP. You gotta give your players a chance to go for it instead of deciding the outcome for them. That's the least you can do for your players. They deserve to be given the best chance to win.

If you pull the plug you're basically telling your team "since you guys suck, let's just develop the qb for the rest of the season".

[Patrick76777]

you are making assumptions instead of waiting for facts. The minute we know for sure we're out of it, then go w/ JP. You gotta give your players a chance to go for it instead of deciding the outcome for them. That's the least you can do for your players. They deserve to be given the best chance to win.
If you pull the plug you're basically telling your team "since you guys suck, let's just develop the qb for the rest of the season".
EXACTLY!

Give Kelly 4 more weeks, if things haven’t turned around and we’re out of the picture, You ride JP for the last 7 games! More then enough time to show us what he’s got!


By the way, Eli Manning and Carson Palmer were number 1 overall picks. It’s a little diff.

[LtBillsFan66]

you are making assumptions instead of waiting for facts. The minute we know for sure we're out of it, then go w/ JP. You gotta give your players a chance to go for it instead of deciding the outcome for them. That's the least you can do for your players. They deserve to be given the best chance to win.

If you pull the plug you're basically telling your team "since you guys suck, let's just develop the qb for the rest of the season".
:bf1:

[Patrick76777]

you are making assumptions instead of waiting for facts. The minute we know for sure we're out of it, then go w/ JP. You gotta give your players a chance to go for it instead of deciding the outcome for them. That's the least you can do for your players. They deserve to be given the best chance to win.
If you pull the plug you're basically telling your team "since you guys suck, let's just develop the qb for the rest of the season".
I say we give Holcomb 5 more games! That’ll bring us to 10 games played.

At that point, if we’re 4-6 or worse, we ride out the last 6 games with JP.

If we’re 5-5 or better, we stay with Kelly and make a run.

And even before that, if we lose the next 3 and go 2-6 I pull the plug on Holcomb and go with JP. (I wait the extra week to keep JP away from NE).

[lordofgun]

And we'll be technically not eliminated until about 2-3 weeks left in the season. At that point, JP will have a few weeks to develop.

And we'll be right back at square one next year.

You watch...

Again, we are NOT going to the Super Bowl this year. That's not making an assumption; that's stating a fact. I'll give you huge odds on that if anyone wants to bet. And winning a SB is all any Bills fan should care about. Stunting JP's growth or delaying it is only delaying a chance at getting to the SB.

[justasportsfan]

And we'll be technically not eliminated until about 2-3 weeks left in the season. At that point, JP will have a few weeks to develop.
And we'll be right back at square one next year.
You watch...
Again, we are NOT going to the Super Bowl this year. That's not making an assumption; that's stating a fact. I'll give you huge odds on that if anyone wants to bet. And winning a SB is all any Bills fan should care about. Stunting JP's growth or delaying it is only delaying a chance at getting to the SB. JP can come in an get his reps at the 4th qtr of every game when KH and the vets blow teams away in the 1st 3 qtrs :tip:

[TacklingDummy]

Is JP Losman pulling a Bobby Joe Hobert on the bench?

No where does it say that sitting on the bench and learning to play the game is stunting someones growth.

[lordofgun]

Ummm...he did that all last year. At some point, there's only so much "growth" you can accomplish on the bench.

[justasportsfan]

Ummm...he did that all last year. At some point, there's only so much "growth" you can accomplish on the bench.you can't sit and learn when you have a cast on. :penalty:

[LtBillsFan66]

LOG is being so unreasonable.

[TacklingDummy]

you can't sit and learn when you have a cast on. :penalty:

He have a cast on on his head?

He just couldn't play. Could still learn.

[lordofgun]

you can't sit and learn when you have a cast on. :penalty:
I assume you're being sarcastic??

[justasportsfan]

He have a cast on on his head?
He just couldn't play. Could still learn.it was on his leg. Those things can itch and make you lose focus. :cas:

[lordofgun]

There was no penalty on the play....Touchdown LOG!

[justasportsfan]

I assume you're being sarcastic??:tip:

[finsrclowns]

We play the Jets this week. Holcomb's playing. I'll be rooting for the Bills to win. Will the "Losmantanktheseasonanites" be doing the same? :idunno:

[BillsFever21]

Kelly Holcomb should be pulled after his next loss or if he struggles badly. JP Losman should finish the season out by himself then and the coach should admit to the fans that JP Losman is going to develop thru the year and then hopefully we will be like the Bengals and Giants next year. We gotta bite the bullet eventually.

I still say that the best thing to happen would be for Holcomb to suck and the Bills to get to 2-5. That would basically end our season and let us focus on developing the future. However, if he doesn't suck...I wouldn't be upset if he stays the starter for the whole season...but the Bills HAVE to make the playoffs. Once they lose another 2 games, they gotta concede and bite the bullet with JP, IMO.

We will be 3-5 after we play NE and Losman will be back in.

And for whoever said we give up on the season by playing Losman that's not the case. It's not like we quit trying to win games. Let him go out there and develop with the other young guys. Holcomb won't take us to the promise land.

We haven't beat a good team in forever. Last year we beat two teams with a winning record and they wern't even great teams and we're even worse this year. We will not get by our schedule with Losman or Holcomb.

Holcomb didn't light it up. Miami beat themselves last week by basically giving points away. A three yard pass that turned into 50 yards by Evans was our only great play of the game. The rest of the way besides that and Holcomb had 25 attemps for 120 yards. Losman had 115 total yards between running and passing in 19 attempts the week before(75 passing and 40 running) Not anything more then Losman has done. Holcomb would've gotten smashed against Tampa and Atlanta too and we would've lost.

We didn't win Sunday because of what Holcomb did. We won because our nitwit coaches finally stuck to the run, Miami made too many mistakes and our defense finally made some turnovers.

It still took a fumble by Ronnie Brown to win this game. Holcomb couldn't put the game away in the 2nd half and kept Miami into it. Once Miami worked their kinks out Holcomb played like crap. How many yards did he have after the 1st quarter? About 60 yards I believe. Miami gave us the game the first half. After that we killed them.

We were still at our average on offense of a little over 200 yards total a game. Was our offense that much better or did our defense finally step up along with some help from Miami?

Some act like we blew Miami away and Holcomb lit up the sky which isn't even close to reality.

[dplus47]

If Holcombe can win under center- then keep him in there. I don't see the need to rush JP Losman into the starting role. He's under contract until 2008 or 2009 I beleive- so what's the rush?

I think 4 games is waaayyyy to early to jump on the dump JP train. But I also don't see the need to make him an NFL calibre starter by the end of this season either.

Too bad we may not have as soft a schedule like we did last year- I hope the Bills get way ahead in a few games this year (like last) and be able to get JP into a contest.

If the Bills fall out of playoff contention- get him back in there. It's obvious he's got talent- and It's obvious he's in over his head. get him in at a slower pace- and give him a much simpler playbook (run 60-65% of the time)

that's pretty much what i was trying to say. of course, i was ignored because of the team i like. i think my distance from the situation actually helps. i don't necessarily think the bills are the best team out there, and i don't think they're the worst team out there. a lot of people who are fans of the team seem to fall into those extremes. there are enough good players on the bills for them to make a run now, even with spikes' injury. and that's hard for me to say...

[justasportsfan]

We play the Jets this week. Holcomb's playing. I'll be rooting for the Bills to win. Will the "Losmantanktheseasonanites" be doing the same? :idunno:Good question

[finsrclowns]

Some act like we blew Miami away and Holcomb lit up the sky which isn't even close to reality.

We won the game which was a nice change from the high school offense JP was leading. Holcomb was 20-26 with a 100+ QB in his first start as a Bill. Honestly the Losmanites would be saying the same things if he was 26-26 with a 158 rating. It boggles the mind. Here's the thing I still don't get: if the team isn't any good, which appears to be the consensus among the Losmanites, JP will be back in soon enough when we start losing. Right? But that's not good enough. We must sacrifice everything at the altar of JP and we've got to do it NOW. Let's give up the season now, lose the vets for this year, discourage future free agents for next year, let our new HC go 2-14 and fire the GM. Sounds like a plan.:sadwalk:

[justasportsfan]

Let's give up the season now, lose the vets for this year, discourage future free agents for next year, let our new HC go 2-14 and fire the GM. Sounds like a plan.:sadwalk: Might as well move the team to texas.

[finsrclowns]

Might as well move the team to texas.

We could just trade franchises with the Aint's. Now there's a team the tankers could really love....:snicker2:

[Mr. Cynical]

We must sacrifice everything at the altar of JP and we've got to do it NOW.

Yep. :up:

I'm tired of waiting 8 years for a legitimate QB. I don't want to wait yet another, because Holcomb is not the answer. Don't waste anymore time. S**t or get off the pot, TD made his bed with JP and we need to know if it was the right call.


...fire the GM. Sounds like a plan.:sadwalk:

The first thing you said that I agree with. :D

[finsrclowns]

I'm tired of waiting 8 years for a legitimate QB.

That's what they were probably saying in Dallas at the start of the year. Now Jerry Jones is saying "we got us a QB". :dance2:

Holcomb hasn't played a lot but when he has his career #'s don't yell "can't succeed". Do they? Who cares what decisions the Browns made. Sing it with me "ALL WE ARE SAYING....IS GIVE KELLY A CHANCE".

[Mr. Cynical]

That's what they were probably saying in Dallas at the start of the year. Now Jerry Jones is saying "we got us a QB". :dance2:

And Jones has never said THAT before and been completely wrong. *See Chad Hutchinson, Quincy Carter.


Holcomb hasn't played a lot but when he has his career #'s don't yell "can't succeed". Do they?

9 years as a backup QB. That yells everything I need to know.


Sing it with me "ALL WE ARE SAYING....IS GIVE KELLY A CHANCE".

How about singing, "GIVE JP MORE THAN 3 BAD GAMES"?

[finsrclowns]

And Jones has never said THAT before and been completely wrong. *See Chad Hutchinson, Quincy Carter.

Just messing with you. Jones is no brain surgeon.




9 years as a backup QB. That yells everything I need to know.
Ok then. It really doesn't matter anyway what we think. KH is GOING to get a chance to play. How long will depend on how he does.




How about singing, "GIVE JP MORE THAN 3 BAD GAMES"?

Not yet.

[The_Philster]

JP can come in an get his reps at the 4th qtr of every game when KH and the vets blow teams away in the 1st 3 qtrs :tip:
How many games do you expect Holcomb and a defense that can't stop the run to save its life to win like that?

[Throne Logic]

Not yet.

If not now, then when?

I would rather take my chances with JP Losman right now, rooting him on to the bitter the end, if necessary. As LOG stated, Holcomb starting only delays the inevitable - an unsuccessful season - in order to placate the short-term thinkers. Investing the time and effort (and pains) in JP Losman would, at the least, give us something of a smaller success that will carry forward into future seasons.

Look folks, contrary to what some of you seem to believe, you CANNOT learn to play QB in the NFL from the bench. CANNOT. Every successful QB who has been asked this question ALWAYS give the same answer. "Have play through the rough times". JP will be no further along if he sits this season out watching Holcomb lead this team to a 7-9 or 8-8 record. Then what are you JP naysayers gonna do? Repeat the same crap again next year when we start 1-3 with JP? The best examples have already been laid out before us - Cinci and NY.

Why does anyone believe that, over the course of this 16 game season, Holcomb gives this team that much more of a chance to win more games? I say that there is as much of a chance that JP will "get it" by mid-season and lead this team to an 8-8 record, as there is that Holcomb will be able to do the same.

I'd also like to know why anyone believes that the "Vets" think that their chances of making the playoffs are all that spectacular with Holcomb? This is the same guy who couldn't hold of Couch for the staring QB job in Cleveland. That's the same Couch who is now playing where? The "Vets" are supposed to be professionals. If they really have serious issues with JP starting, to the point where it negatively effects their on-field effort, then THEY NEED TO GO! Which one of you was hanging out in the locker room to learn the truth about this tidbit?

[Throne Logic]

How many games do you expect Holcomb and a defense that can't stop the run to save its life to win like that?


There's that too. Our "vaunted" defense seems to be giving up 100 rushing games like they were on special at Wegmans.

Furthermore, we could always bring up good 'ole 3rd and long . . .

So far, I'm fairly unimpressed with our defense, considering how highly touted they were coming into the season. I'll grant them that the 4th quarter is much more difficult when you've been on the field 40 of the first 45 minutes of play. However, they struggle in the first half.

[lordofgun]

If not now, then when?

I would rather take my chances with JP Losman right now, rooting him on to the bitter the end, if necessary. As LOG stated, Holcomb starting only delays the inevitable - an unsuccessful season - in order to placate the short-term thinkers. Investing the time and effort (and pains) in JP Losman would, at the least, give us something of a smaller success that will carry forward into future seasons.

Look folks, contrary to what some of you seem to believe, you CANNOT learn to play QB in the NFL from the bench. CANNOT. Every successful QB who has been asked this question ALWAYS give the same answer. "Have play through the rough times". JP will be no further along if he sits this season out watching Holcomb lead this team to a 7-9 or 8-8 record. Then what are you JP naysayers gonna do? Repeat the same crap again next year when we start 1-3 with JP? The best examples have already been laid out before us - Cinci and NY.

Why does anyone believe that, over the course of this 16 game season, Holcomb gives this team that much more of a chance to win more games? I say that there is as much of a chance that JP will "get it" by mid-season and lead this team to an 8-8 record, as there is that Holcomb will be able to do the same.

I'd also like to know why anyone believes that the "Vets" think that their chances of making the playoffs are all that spectacular with Holcomb? This is the same guy who couldn't hold of Couch for the staring QB job in Cleveland. That's the same Couch who is now playing where? The "Vets" are supposed to be professionals. If they really have serious issues with JP starting, to the point where it negatively effects their on-field effort, then THEY NEED TO GO! Which one of you was hanging out in the locker room to learn the truth about this tidbit?
That's what I call Throne Logic. :up:

[BillsFever21]

Against the Saints Losman had a great first drive. After that we were backed way up and we try to pass our way out of it instead of gaining some yards on the ground to get out of the situation. They would've put any QB in a bad situation the way they handled that let alone Losman.

When we finally wern't backed up inside the 10 Losman his 5 of his next 7 passes for 50 yards and then they take him out of the game after he put a good string of passes together. They should've had looked at that as something to build on instead of throwing in the towel at that point. Why would you get benched after going 5-7 for 50 yards during that string?

Mularkey should take a good look in the mirror at himself for the root of the problem instead of making Losman the scapegoat. The playcalling was terrible and Mularkey is a joke of a coach.

They were too in love with his arm and athletic abilites and didn't call plays that put us in the best position to for success.

[Throne Logic]

That's what I call Throne Logic. :up:

:peace:

It no longer amazes me how some people find themselves working past their retirement age so they can eat and pay their taxes. It's all about what's directly here in front of them right now. "Worry about tomorrow tomorrow".

Of course, they'll be the first in line to ***** that no one did anything yesterday to prepare for what they must have known was coming today.

Still waiting for some "anti" responses.

[YardRat]

It still amazes me the amount of people that miss out on what's happening today because they're too concerned about what tomorrow may bring.

[Throne Logic]

Against the Saints Losman had a great first drive. After that we were backed way up and we try to pass our way out of it instead of gaining some yards on the ground to get out of the situation. They would've put any QB in a bad situation the way they handled that let alone Losman.

Mularkey should take a good look in the mirror at himself for the root of the problem instead of making Losman the scapegoat. The playcalling was terrible and Mularkey is a joke of a coach.

I wholeheartedly agree that the Bills have run the ball far to little this season. More to the point, they have not called running plays at the proper times. They should also have set up more screens for JP to toss the ball to Willis.

I'm not ready to give up on Mularky yet. I understand the single series benching of Losman where, I believe, Mularky was giving JP a chance to see the game from the outside instead of on his back. JP actually came back into that game more poised and played somewhat better.

I do not agree with the switch at starter. Even if it doesn't undermine JP's confidence (and I don't believe that it will), it will definitely delay his development. As I've stated elsewhere, successful NFL QB's all agree that you cannot get the necessary game experience from the bench. I believe that Buffalo is mortgaging the future of the franchise for the slim chance that they might get a quick buzz now.

[Throne Logic]

Besides, I'm pissed that I got a nice new Losman jersey for my birthday the week he was benched in favor of Holcomb.

[lordofgun]

It still amazes me the amount of people that miss out on what's happening today because they're too concerned about what tomorrow may bring.
Again, what would we be missing out on by starting JP instead of Holcomb?

[YardRat]

I wholeheartedly agree that the Bills have run the ball far to little this season. More to the point, they have not called running plays at the proper times. They should also have set up more screens for JP to toss the ball to Willis.

I'm not ready to give up on Mularky yet. I understand the single series benching of Losman where, I believe, Mularky was giving JP a chance to see the game from the outside instead of on his back. JP actually came back into that game more poised and played somewhat better.

I do not agree with the switch at starter. Even if it doesn't undermine JP's confidence (and I don't believe that it will), it will definitely delay his development. As I've stated elsewhere, successful NFL QB's all agree that you cannot get the necessary game experience from the bench. I believe that Buffalo is mortgaging the future of the franchise for the slim chance that they might get a quick buzz now.

If you truly believe JP has the ability to be the future of the franchise, then you shouldn't be concerned about when he develops. If he has the tools now, he'll have the tools at a later time, also, so why waste what talent we have now on his development?

As of right now the team has proven they can win with Holcomb...that may or may not continue, but why just jump ship without it being proven first?

If JP doesn't pan out as a starting QB in the NFL, it's going to have absolutely nothing to do with whether or not he was benched after four games, and everything to do with the abilities he truly possesses.

Great NFL QB's don't completely **** their pants when they see game action. They may not post the best stats, but they at least give glimpses even during their worst performances that they have the ability to play the game, and there truly is a foundation there to build on.

JP has yet to show he has that foundation.

[lordofgun]

Great NFL QB's don't completely **** their pants when they see game action. They may not post the best stats, but they at least give glimpses even during their worst performances that they have the ability to play the game, and there truly is a foundation there to build on.

JP has yet to show he has that foundation.

Guess you didn't watch Eli Manning last year.

[YardRat]

Again, what would we be missing out on by starting JP instead of Holcomb?

A win over the Dolphins for starters.

A chance at being 3-3 after 6 games.

An offense that can put 20 points on the board.

A QB that knows how to get the ball to the WR's.

A QB that knows how to check out of a bad play and into a good one after seeing and understanding the defense in front of him.

A QB that knows the value of sliding after gaining positive yardage.

A QB leading the offense that the rest of the team has confidence in.

An opportunity to possibly look forward to the play-offs instead of just tanking the season and, once again, pinning your hopes on 'next year'.

Need I go on ???

[YardRat]

Guess you didn't watch Eli Manning last year.

When Eli Manning actually takes his team to a Super Bowl, or even his older brother for that matter, then you can talk about how valuable it was to get game experience ASAP. Until then, it's just fluff.

Who's widely considered the best QB in the game today, and how many years did he sit the bench before starting full-time? Didn't exactly hamper Brady's development to not get thrown to the wolves immediately, did it?

Either you have it or you don't.

[lordofgun]

A win over the Dolphins for starters.

A chance at being 3-3 after 6 games.

An offense that can put 20 points on the board.

A QB that knows how to get the ball to the WR's.

A QB that knows how to check out of a bad play and into a good one after seeing and understanding the defense in front of him.

A QB that knows the value of sliding after gaining positive yardage.

A QB leading the offense that the rest of the team has confidence in.

An opportunity to possibly look forward to the play-offs instead of just tanking the season and, once again, pinning your hopes on 'next year'.

Need I go on ???
No Super Bowl though. You can settle for less than that if you want. For me, anything less doesn't cut it.

Some people are happy with "almost" I guess.

[lordofgun]

Either you have it or you don't.

Oh please. There are TONS of QBs out there who are very good QBs now, yet struggled in their first year.

There's no way to tell if someone "has it" or not unless they play.

[Mr. Cynical]

An offense that can put 20 points on the board.

Last I time I checked, JP led the offense to 22 points in game 1. :idunno:

[Mr. Cynical]

As of right now the team has proven they can win with Holcomb...that may or may not continue, but why just jump ship without it being proven first?

So it's okay to jump ship on JP after 3 BAD games, yet say KH is "proven" after 1 AVERAGE game? I don't get it.


JP has yet to show he has that foundation.

Kinda hard to do that only playing 4 games.

[YardRat]

No Super Bowl though. You can settle for less than that if you want. For me, anything less doesn't cut it.

Some people are happy with "almost" I guess.

What gaurantees a Super Bowl if JP is starting? Nothing. Not now, not ever. I'll take 'almost' over 'no chance in hell' any time.

[YardRat]

Oh please. There are TONS of QBs out there who are very good QBs now, yet struggled in their first year.

There's no way to tell if someone "has it" or not unless they play.

JP has played...four times. He may have 'it', but I have yet to see a single example that he does.

[YardRat]

Last I time I checked, JP led the offense to 22 points in game 1. :idunno:

My bad...your point. :D

[YardRat]

So it's okay to jump ship on JP after 3 BAD games, yet say KH is "proven" after 1 AVERAGE game? I don't get it.



Kinda hard to do that only playing 4 games.

I didn't indicate that KH is "proven" over-all, I said the proof we have is that the team has won with him at QB, and the only 'proof' there is to base that on at this point is one game...that may change this Sunday, it may not.

Holcomb may very well suck it up just as bad as JP did the three games following the Houston victory...but we won't know that until he plays more games.

We've seen the 'proof' that this team loses games with JP Losman playing QB...we haven't seen that yet with Holcomb. And until we do, the argument is moot in favor of Kelly.

[justasportsfan]

How many games do you expect Holcomb and a defense that can't stop the run to save its life to win like that?only one way to find out. How about you? Do you know for sure ?

[justasportsfan]

If not now, then when?
I would rather take my chances with JP Losman right now, rooting him on to the bitter the end, if necessary. As LOG stated, Holcomb starting only delays the inevitable - an unsuccessful season - in order to placate the short-term thinkers. Investing the time and effort (and pains) in JP Losman would, at the least, give us something of a smaller success that will carry forward into future seasons.
Look folks, contrary to what some of you seem to believe, you CANNOT learn to play QB in the NFL from the bench. CANNOT. Every successful QB who has been asked this question ALWAYS give the same answer. "Have play through the rough times". JP will be no further along if he sits this season out watching Holcomb lead this team to a 7-9 or 8-8 record. Then what are you JP naysayers gonna do? Repeat the same crap again next year when we start 1-3 with JP? The best examples have already been laid out before us - Cinci and NY.
Why does anyone believe that, over the course of this 16 game season, Holcomb gives this team that much more of a chance to win more games? I say that there is as much of a chance that JP will "get it" by mid-season and lead this team to an 8-8 record, as there is that Holcomb will be able to do the same.
I'd also like to know why anyone believes that the "Vets" think that their chances of making the playoffs are all that spectacular with Holcomb? This is the same guy who couldn't hold of Couch for the staring QB job in Cleveland. That's the same Couch who is now playing where? The "Vets" are supposed to be professionals. If they really have serious issues with JP starting, to the point where it negatively effects their on-field effort, then THEY NEED TO GO! Which one of you was hanging out in the locker room to learn the truth about this tidbit?

So you just give up on the rest of the team because the run game isn't doing well? Why did they hire these players then if they didn't think they were any good? What about the passing game? Aren't they top of the league? Do we make them keep it up even though they know that our coaches already gave up the season? OUr ST?

The Vikes vets say that Mike Tice has given up on them. Not a great way to keep players. Do you think Willis will stay if management and coaches don't give them a vote of confidence to at least try?

Some people say that the reason why the ravens are in a shambles now with all the rage they showed in their last game is because their D is frustrated that their QB cannot get things going. Not every player out there is in it for the money. They want to win.


YOu can't fix a problem by giving up. TD and MM should be fired if they don't have faith in the playersthey hired in the first place.

[finsrclowns]

YOu can't fix a problem by giving up.

No Super Bowl?:wail:

[justasportsfan]

Bellichick had Antoine Smith and their running D couldn't stop anyone when they won their first sb. He however put them in the best situation to win. No one ever expected them to win that sb. They were committed to winning and not developing players for the next year. They didn't make excusses for them to quit especially after an 0-4 start.

They also had a depleted line up over the years but they never gave up. Last year their cb's in the sb were rookies. Part of being a good organization is overcoming injuries and one way of doing that is by trusting your back ups you hired and put faith in the leaders that are left behind.

Telling them, "we're not gonna make playoffs anyways because I don't have faith in you" is not a great way to encourage your players, especially the leaders of this team. Instead of building up their confidence , you just told them they suck. Who the hell would like to play for an organization like that?

You'll just end up making the vets like Milloy , Fletcher , Adams and Vincent ask for a trade next year. Are you guys gonna be confiedent w/ Crowell , Stamer , Wire and Baker as our starters or should we just draft young safeties and lb's again and then wait to devlop them again and sit Stamer and co?

You guys forget who Willis agent is. If you send Willis a sign that they aren't committed to winning and don't have faith in them, he's gonna want one hell of a contract in order for him to stay or leave for a team who never gives up.

[lordofgun]

What gaurantees a Super Bowl if JP is starting? Nothing. Not now, not ever. I'll take 'almost' over 'no chance in hell' any time.
Holcomb = no chance in hell.
Losman = ???

I'll take ??? over no chance in hell.

We've seen what Holcomb can do...be average. We don't know one way or another about JP.

[MikeInRoch]

I didn't indicate that KH is "proven" over-all, I said the proof we have is that the team has won with him at QB, and the only 'proof' there is to base that on at this point is one game...that may change this Sunday, it may not.

When will people learn that there is more than just QB play that determines who wins a ball game? There are a lot of QBs (JP included) that could have won that game, given the mistakes that Miami made through the entire game.

[TacklingDummy]

Losman = ???

I'll take ??? over no chance in hell.

We've seen what Holcomb can do...be average. We don't know one way or another about JP.


???= no chance in hell

You didn't watch the Bills 1st 4 games?

[justasportsfan]

We've seen what Holcomb can do...be average. We don't know one way or another about JP.
Actually so far from what I've seen, KH 106.1 qb rating. w/ 1 week of practice w/ the 1st team. If that's average. I'll take average anyday.

What is JP's rating?

[finsrclowns]

What is JP's rating?

About the temperature in Buffalo on a fall day.:bad:

[lordofgun]

Actually so far from what I've seen, KH 106.1 qb rating. w/ 1 week of practice w/ the 1st team. If that's average. I'll take average anyday.

What is JP's rating?
Did you actually watch the game? The offense was horrid after Q1.

[Throne Logic]

I didn't indicate that KH is "proven" over-all, I said the proof we have is that the team has won with him at QB, and the only 'proof' there is to base that on at this point is one game...that may change this Sunday, it may not.

Holcomb may very well suck it up just as bad as JP did the three games following the Houston victory...but we won't know that until he plays more games.

We've seen the 'proof' that this team loses games with JP Losman playing QB...we haven't seen that yet with Holcomb. And until we do, the argument is moot in favor of Kelly.

Here's the big problem with your comparison. JP had to play Tampa Bay on the road his second game. Holcomb plays a beat up Jets team at home. You can call Houston and Miami a wash - two bad teams that beat themselves at the Ralph. I think that JP would have played fairly well against Miami at the Ralph. I also think that he'd play well against the Jets this week.

This creates a two-fold frustration. Not only will we never know how well JP may or may not have played vs. two weak foes at home, Holcomb will most likely look decent for two weeks in a row. This will only prolong the misconception that Holcomb is a better option than JP. Does any believe that Holcomb would have been enough to beat Tampa in Tampa or New Orleans in front of their first home crowd of the season? Atlanta beat the whole Buffalo team - they sucked all around that Sunday.

[justasportsfan]

Did you actually watch the game? The offense was horrid after Q1.yes I did and it was more than what I expected having 1 week of practice w/ the first team. Don't forget who was blocking on the right side as well. 106.1 rating inspite of our running game only rush for 2.8 ypc is not too shaby.

[BillsFever21]

Here's the big problem with your comparison. JP had to play Tampa Bay on the road his second game. Holcomb plays a beat up Jets team at home. You can call Houston and Miami a wash - two bad teams that beat themselves at the Ralph. I think that JP would have played fairly well against Miami at the Ralph. I also think that he'd play well against the Jets this week.

This creates a two-fold frustration. Not only will we never know how well JP may or may not have played vs. two weak foes at home, Holcomb will most likely look decent for two weeks in a row. This will only prolong the misconception that Holcomb is a better option than JP. Does any believe that Holcomb would have been enough to beat Tampa in Tampa or New Orleans in front of their first home crowd of the season? Atlanta beat the whole Buffalo team - they sucked all around that Sunday.

:clap:

Playing Tampa on the road, Atlanta and the Saints playing their first home game doesn't compare to the Squish at home who gave the game away.

That game was no different then the Houston game and at least in that game we didn't need a fumble by Brown to secure the game.

If the Dolphins wouldn't have choked and beat us what would all you Holcombmaniacs be saying?

Holcomb didn't go out there and play awesome and won the game for us by himself. Our defense finally got TO's which we didn't the prior 3 weeks and the Dolphins had 18 penalties. The opposition didn't even have that many penalties or TO's combined the prior 3 weeks.

[justasportsfan]

Here's the big problem with your comparison. JP had to play Tampa Bay on the road his second game. Holcomb plays a beat up Jets team at home. You can call Houston and Miami a wash - two bad teams that beat themselves at the Ralph. I think that JP would have played fairly well against Miami at the Ralph. I also think that he'd play well against the Jets this week.
This creates a two-fold frustration. Not only will we never know how well JP may or may not have played vs. two weak foes at home, Holcomb will most likely look decent for two weeks in a row. This will only prolong the misconception that Holcomb is a better option than JP. Does any believe that Holcomb would have been enough to beat Tampa in Tampa or New Orleans in front of their first home crowd of the season? Atlanta beat the whole Buffalo team - they sucked all around that Sunday.A "what if "post . Coulda, woulda, shoulda.

I like these bettter 20-16. 106. rating. Bills are back in the playoff hunt. 1-0 in the division. Those are facts. They may change but for now, it's better than playing a guessing game.

[BillsFever21]

Without a lucky 50 yard play by Evans where the DB slipped and Evans did the rest himself, you're looking at 120 yards passing for Holcomb in 25 attemps the rest of the game. JP could've completed that pass. Any of us could.

We had 236 total yards that game. Not any more then we were putting up with Losman.

We only scored 20 points with help from Miami. Twent points wouldn't have been enough to beat the Falcons who scored 24. We scored 16 against a better Falcons team.

We wouldn't needed 20 points to beat the Bucs and Saints who each put up 19. No chance in hell against the Bucs on the road with their defense. Maybe the Saints.

[BillsFever21]

If Holcomb would've played against the Bucs or Falcons he would've gotten creamed too. Would his maniacs be thinking differently then?

The Phins don't compare to the Bucs on the road and the Falcons.

[justasportsfan]

Without a lucky 50 yard play by Evans where the DB slipped and Evans did the rest himself, you're looking at 120 yards passing for Holcomb in 25 attemps the rest of the game. JP could've completed that pass. Any of us could.

We had 236 total yards that game. Not any more then we were putting up with Losman.

We only scored 20 points with help from Miami. Twent points wouldn't have been enough to beat the Falcons who scored 24. We scored 16 against a better Falcons team.

We wouldn't needed 20 points to beat the Bucs and Saints who each put up 19. No chance in hell against the Bucs on the road with their defense. Maybe the Saints.take away his biggest pass. Wys, is that you?

This is what Moulds has been talking about "trust your wrs to make plays" . You wont know unless you throw it to them instead of hiolding on to the ball or scrambling when you doubt you wrs.


FYI, that's how Brady wins sb's.

[BillsFever21]

None of this is the QB's fault or reason they won/lost either. Mularkey has shown he can't coach us to a victory against good teams.

We lost to the Bucs and Falcons. Mularkey has never beat a team of that caliber. We go and beat the Dolphins at home and had to hang on to do it.

This is a pathetic coach. It has nothing to do with who the QB is. KH wouldn't had no chance against the Bucs or Falcons either. Mularkey can't beat great teams. Out of his 11 wins as a coach only two of the teams have a winning record he beat.

[BillsFever21]

take away his biggest pass. Wys, is that you?

It shows without one lucky play he was average the rest of the day.

Hey you guys are doing the same with Losman's game against the Texans and his "what about the 2nd half" but the same doesn't apply for Holcomb.

I can't wait for Holcomb to fall flat on his face which he will once we meet the Raiders and Patriots. We will be 3-5 after them games.

[justasportsfan]

If Holcomb would've played against the Bucs or Falcons he would've gotten creamed too. Would his maniacs be thinking differently then?

The Phins don't compare to the Bucs on the road and the Falcons. I have facts. you have what if's.


What amazes me is that we are trying to take away a solid performance from a player who was a huge factor in a WIN. For a second there, I thought I was in Finheaven.

[justasportsfan]

It shows without one lucky play he was average the rest of the day.

Hey you guys are doing the same with Losman's game against the Texans and his "what about the 2nd half" but the same doesn't apply for Holcomb.

I can't wait for Holcomb to fall flat on his face which he will once we meet the Raiders and Patriots. We will be 3-5 after them games.
No I gave JP credit where credit is due. He has played backwards since then. This is a league that asks "what have you done for me lately", not what have you done for me in the first game. If Holcomb sucks it up, I'm all for JP starting but not when we're winnng.

You just gave credibility to Evans and Moulds as to why they prefer Holcomb.

Once again, you are taking away credit from Evans when you take away that one pass. At least Holcomb gives his wrs a chance to make big plays. JP either holds on to the ball or dumps it off to Josh Reed.

[Throne Logic]

So you just give up on the rest of the team because the run game isn't doing well? Why did they hire these players then if they didn't think they were any good? What about the passing game? Aren't they top of the league? Do we make them keep it up even though they know that our coaches already gave up the season? OUr ST?
The Vikes vets say that Mike Tice has given up on them. Not a great way to keep players. Do you think Willis will stay if management and coaches don't give them a vote of confidence to at least try?
Some people say that the reason why the ravens are in a shambles now with all the rage they showed in their last game is because their D is frustrated that their QB cannot get things going. Not every player out there is in it for the money. They want to win.
YOu can't fix a problem by giving up. TD and MM should be fired if they don't have faith in the playersthey hired in the first place.

Look here dammit - you have no friggin' right calling anyone a quitter. Those of us supporting JP have in no way given up on the season than you have. We just have differing opinions on how it will likely turn out. So back off.

You believe that this team has something of a chance to make the playoffs if Holcomb starts but not if JP starts. I believe the reality is that the chances of Buffalo making the playoffs is about the same with JP as it is with Holcomb. Which is to say, I think either QB presents the opportunity of leading Buffalo to an 8-8 record. If New England somehow falls apart (unlikely, in my opinion), 8-8 could be enough to win the division, thereby resulting in a playoff spot.

Unlike LOG, I do believe that a playoff appearance this season would be considered a successful season (although doing it with an 8-8 record could be debatable). This team has not done much in many years. Playing a 17th game would be a positive step in the right direction. It would mean a whole lot more with JP leading the team into that game than Holcomb. Holcomb does not in any way represent the future of Buffalo. A playoff game, win or lose, would be something to build on with JP as the starter. That isn't the case with Holcomb, because Holcomb will not be the starter next September. In fact, if Holcomb leads this team into a brief playoff appearance, we'd likely have a QB contraversy this off-season to rival that of the one we had with Doug & Rob featuring many of the same arguments we are seeing now with 9 months of compounded festering. I DO NOT WANT TO GO THROUGH THAT AGAIN! I want to settle things NOW! I want to know if JP has the goods this season!

You talk about "wasting talent". That's rediculous. There will be talent to waste EVERY season. If there isn't, then this won't be a good team and JP isn't going to be very successful anyway. That sounds like you want to set him up for failure (NOTE: I DO NOT believe you are intentionally trying to do this). If you wait until the team sucks, then put the green QB in, he's really going to struggle. Every successful QB has had some talent around him.

Now, you cannot compare the JP situation to the Baltimore situation. Kyle has had a number of years to find his way. I give Billick credit for sticking with the kid (although he may have carried it a bit too far going into this season without a solid backup option). The team is frustrated because a few reasons. The first may very well be the prolonged lack of production at the QB position. However, their defense was just as highly touted as Buffalo's and are struggling just as much. I'd say the defensive struggles represents the biggest reason Baltimore was reduced to fits of rage.

[Throne Logic]

It shows without one lucky play he was average the rest of the day.

Hey you guys are doing the same with Losman's game against the Texans and his "what about the 2nd half" but the same doesn't apply for Holcomb.

I can't wait for Holcomb to fall flat on his face which he will once we meet the Raiders and Patriots. We will be 3-5 after them games.

I can't agree with taking out the "lucky play". Every game has "a lucky play". All stats include a lucky play or two somewhere along the line. This is something that Wys' never quite grasped. It's part of the game and a big part of the majority of the averages we all seem to hang on. No RB would average over 4 yards/carry if you kept taking out his largest gain.

I REALLY have to disagree with that ". . . fall flat on his face" comment. Do you really want this to happen? Or are you just frustrated and making a rash statement? I NEVER want anyone to struggle on this team and NEVER want to see this team struggle. I share your frustration, but be careful how you express it.

[BAM]

http://www.dailyrecord.com/lifestyle/ritalin/parttwo/ritalin.jpg

[TacklingDummy]

I want to settle things NOW! I want to know if JP has the goods this season!


He played 4 regular season games, he showed his goods. It was time for a change.

If "a Big IF", Holcomb can help the Bills win then that's good. If the Bills still continue to stink then they can put JP back in. Sitting on the bench for a couple of games won't hurt JPs progress. It might even help hs progress. Give him time to settle down.

[Throne Logic]

No I gave JP credit where credit is due. He has played backwards since then. This is a league that asks "what have you done for me lately", not what have you done for me in the first game. If Holcomb sucks it up, I'm all for JP starting but not when we're winnng.
You just gave credibility to Evans and Moulds as to why they prefer Holcomb.
Once again, you are taking away credit from Evans when you take away that one pass. At least Holcomb gives his wrs a chance to make big plays. JP either holds on to the ball or dumps it off to Josh Reed.

I'd like step this down just a bit and ask a more basic question on a calmer field. Forget Holcomb, forget the playoffs, forget everything outside of just the scope of my question.

Let me set up my position a bit. JP struggled through the first 1/4 of the season - I agree. However, I felt going into this season (and many folks agreed on this board) that JP would need at least 6 games just to settle into the speed of the game. I believed that by mid-season, JP would have started to figure things out and become a viable starting QB. If by 8 games, there was no sign of improvement, then consider alternatives. Basically, I feel that pulling JP from the starting role this early, the coaches have failed to follow through with the "promise" of giving JP a realistic chance to succeed. He has fought through his struggles and now isn't getting the opportunity to complete the process and realize his success.

My Question: Without accusation or any intent of attack, I would like to understand why you believe that JP has no chance of improving and turning the corner by mid-season. Please don't give me the "first 4 game" answer. I already explained that the general consesus was that it would take 6 games, or so.

[Throne Logic]

Just to take the idea a step further. Here is how I loosely figured the season would go with JP at the helm - without too much consideration for who the Bills were playing and when. It was a loose model for JP's development, all opponents being equal and QB impact in each game being relatively important.

Viewing the season as 4 quarters with 4 games per quarter (just as the coaches do, I might add):

1st quarter: 1-3
2nd quarter: 2-2
3rd quarter: 2-2
4th quarter: 3-1

My point here was to isolate a QB's growth and progression as it might relate to the win/loss category. I realize that the NFL is far from an ideal "all things being equal" world, but in the case of attempting to evaluate one player, no system is perfect. Even the comprehensive QB rating doesn't take into consideration drops, tips leading to interceptions, and general lucky/unlucky breaks.

[kgun12]

The giants were in a rebuilding mode w/ one of the youngest line up in the league. They could grow together as a team. We could've done that with JP since he has Evans and Willis. Try telling that to Moulds, Fletcher, Spikes, Adams, Milloy, Vincent , though. etc.
We had a D , ST and running game that is playoff calibre. By the time JP gets ready that ST and D will probably be disbanded by then. Clements could pull a Winfield and say "I want to play for a contender"

We have the 4th youngest team in the league.

[Throne Logic]

A couple points that have me a bit on edge. Please do not wrongly assume that I am not supportive of Kelly Holcomb just because I believe that JP should still be the starting QB of this team. That is far from the truth and a completely different point. Holcomb is only doing his job and should receive the support he deserves for serving his organization and the fans to the best of his abilities.

My gripe is with the coaches and front office.

Furthermore, please don't accuse me of quitting, giving up, not being a true Bills fan, or any other similar horsepucky simply because I disagree with what something the Bills organization has done.

You might disapprove of a choice your child makes as they enter into their adult lives, and may even make it clear why you disapprove, but you still offer them your love and support (I hope). Same thing with the Bills. I disagree with some of the decisions, but they still hear me cheering on Sundays.

[TacklingDummy]

He has fought through his struggles and now isn't getting the opportunity to complete the process and realize his success.


He never fought through his struggles and that's why he was benched.

Unless you call, 7 of 15, 75 yards 1 Int. 0 TDs or 10 of 23, 75 yards, 1 Int, 0 TDs a success.

JP will get his turn again. Sitting for a couple of games won't hurt his progress.

Personally I'd rather see JP start every game. He's the best chance the Bills have at getting Matt Leinart.

[justasportsfan]

It shows without one lucky play he was average the rest of the day..if we have 10 of those lucky plays because our qb is throwing to the wrs instead of holding on to the ball or scrambling , I'll take it like I would take Brady's doing that all the way to 3 sb's.


Hey you guys are doing the same with Losman's game against the Texans and his "what about the 2nd half" but the same doesn't apply for Holcomb.

I can't wait for Holcomb to fall flat on his face which he will once we meet the Raiders and Patriots. We will be 3-5 after them games.Well, thats just you being a JP fan rather than being a bills fan. True fans will never wait for their qb to fall flat on their face.

[justasportsfan]

Look here dammit - you have no friggin' right calling anyone a quitter. Those of us supporting JP have in no way given up on the season than you have. We just have differing opinions on how it will likely turn out. So back off.
You believe that this team has something of a chance to make the playoffs if Holcomb starts but not if JP starts. I believe the reality is that the chances of Buffalo making the playoffs is about the same with JP as it is with Holcomb. Which is to say, I think either QB presents the opportunity of leading Buffalo to an 8-8 record. If New England somehow falls apart (unlikely, in my opinion), 8-8 could be enough to win the division, thereby resulting in a playoff spot.
Unlike LOG, I do believe that a playoff appearance this season would be considered a successful season (although doing it with an 8-8 record could be debatable). This team has not done much in many years. Playing a 17th game would be a positive step in the right direction. It would mean a whole lot more with JP leading the team into that game than Holcomb. Holcomb does not in any way represent the future of Buffalo. A playoff game, win or lose, would be something to build on with JP as the starter. That isn't the case with Holcomb, because Holcomb will not be the starter next September. In fact, if Holcomb leads this team into a brief playoff appearance, we'd likely have a QB contraversy this off-season to rival that of the one we had with Doug & Rob featuring many of the same arguments we are seeing now with 9 months of compounded festering. I DO NOT WANT TO GO THROUGH THAT AGAIN! I want to settle things NOW! I want to know if JP has the goods this season!
You talk about "wasting talent". That's rediculous. There will be talent to waste EVERY season. If there isn't, then this won't be a good team and JP isn't going to be very successful anyway. That sounds like you want to set him up for failure (NOTE: I DO NOT believe you are intentionally trying to do this). If you wait until the team sucks, then put the green QB in, he's really going to struggle. Every successful QB has had some talent around him.
Now, you cannot compare the JP situation to the Baltimore situation. Kyle has had a number of years to find his way. I give Billick credit for sticking with the kid (although he may have carried it a bit too far going into this season without a solid backup option). The team is frustrated because a few reasons. The first may very well be the prolonged lack of production at the QB position. However, their defense was just as highly touted as Buffalo's and are struggling just as much. I'd say the defensive struggles represents the biggest reason Baltimore was reduced to fits of rage.relax, we're just arguing on a subject. No need to get pissy about it. How would you know if we are going 8-8 or playoff if we don't at least try by putting our best players in there.

I'll tell you this much, I'd rather listen to the vets who practice w/ both qb's to know who gives them a better chance of winning.


You can be patient all you want but I just want my team to win. If you find anything with w/ that , that's all you. I am not gonna wait for the bengals or the cards to beat us to another sb but waiting to see if a player will or will not pan out in the future. I've gone that way w/ Rob johnson already nad because of it, the bucs and Pats already have sb's and we are still trying to develop players.

[justasportsfan]

I'd like step this down just a bit and ask a more basic question on a calmer field. Forget Holcomb, forget the playoffs, forget everything outside of just the scope of my question.
Let me set up my position a bit. JP struggled through the first 1/4 of the season - I agree. However, I felt going into this season (and many folks agreed on this board) that JP would need at least 6 games just to settle into the speed of the game. I believed that by mid-season, JP would have started to figure things out and become a viable starting QB. If by 8 games, there was no sign of improvement, then consider alternatives. Basically, I feel that pulling JP from the starting role this early, the coaches have failed to follow through with the "promise" of giving JP a realistic chance to succeed. He has fought through his struggles and now isn't getting the opportunity to complete the process and realize his success.
My Question: Without accusation or any intent of attack, I would like to understand why you believe that JP has no chance of improving and turning the corner by mid-season. Please don't give me the "first 4 game" answer. I already explained that the general consesus was that it would take 6 games, or so. I don't know for sure if JP can turn the corner by mid season. I wasn't even sure if Holcomb could do anything against the fins. Now that we've seen both players and how the rest of the team reacted to Holcomb, I just want the best player to be in there.

Look at the ravens. They are frustrated w/ their qb position. Their D has worked hard and yet they are losing games because of their O. Our vets have spoken . Although they do not say that JP will bust, they feel that right now Holcomb gives them the bet chance to win. It won't be long before our vets end up like the ravens if we insist on playing a rookie qb who holds the team back while trying to grow.

This D has a lot of pride. Instead of trying to get better they will give up if their coach sends them a message that they aren't good enough.

[YardRat]

Here's the big problem with your comparison. JP had to play Tampa Bay on the road his second game. Holcomb plays a beat up Jets team at home. You can call Houston and Miami a wash - two bad teams that beat themselves at the Ralph. I think that JP would have played fairly well against Miami at the Ralph. I also think that he'd play well against the Jets this week.

This creates a two-fold frustration. Not only will we never know how well JP may or may not have played vs. two weak foes at home, Holcomb will most likely look decent for two weeks in a row. This will only prolong the misconception that Holcomb is a better option than JP. Does any believe that Holcomb would have been enough to beat Tampa in Tampa or New Orleans in front of their first home crowd of the season? Atlanta beat the whole Buffalo team - they sucked all around that Sunday.

What about Atlanta? At the Ralph? The Falcons were so depleted at the cornerback position they were warming up Meathead and FBH in the tunnel, just in case.

Are you trying to say Losman didn't play against a beat-up Falcons team?

Making excuses already, so that when the Bills beat NY this weekend you can throw in another 'yeah, but...'?

Get real--JP had a full quarter of the season to prove he was ready to handle the pressure of playing QB in the NFL and he **** his pants. No speculation whatsoever, a proven fact.

[finsrclowns]

It shows without one lucky play he was average the rest of the day.

Hey you guys are doing the same with Losman's game against the Texans and his "what about the 2nd half" but the same doesn't apply for Holcomb.

I can't wait for Holcomb to fall flat on his face which he will once we meet the Raiders and Patriots. We will be 3-5 after them games.

If Losman continued to play like he did against Houston there'd be no debate because he'd still be in there. And rooting for KH to fall flat on his face is shameful.

[BillsFever21]

Holcomb had 3 drives end with a sack in the 2nd half. He also fumbled 3 times. We're just lucky only one of them were recovered by Miami.

That's not protecting the football. Next time they will be recovered by the other team. Holcomb did everything to let Miami back in it which they did do. Thank god Brown fumbled to hand us the game.

Holcomb was terrible outside of the 1st quarter. Miami gave us this game. If we play like that against the Jets we will lose. If this last game was in Miami we would've lost.

Is this the kind of play that will beat teams like the Patriots, Chargers, Chiefs, Broncos and the other tough games we have? Not a chance. Holcomb is not the answer and we will finish no better then 6-10 with him at the helm if he plays out the rest of the year.

[YardRat]

I wouldn't call 17 for 21, 103 yds and 10 points terrible.

Losman was 11-22, 90 yds after the first drive against Houston.

6-19, 43 yards after the first quarter.

Let's see now...17/21 & 103 or 6/19 & 43...

Real tough call, I have to admit.

[TacklingDummy]

Holcomb had 3 drives end with a sack in the 2nd half. He also fumbled 3 times. We're just lucky only one of them were recovered by Miami.



Same thing can be said with JPs almost 6-9 almost Ints. against Houston, Atlanta, Tampa Bay, N.O.

We are just lucky they couldn't catch.

[justasportsfan]

Holcomb had 3 drives end with a sack in the 2nd half. He also fumbled 3 times. We're just lucky only one of them were recovered by Miami.

That's not protecting the football. Next time they will be recovered by the other team. Holcomb did everything to let Miami back in it which they did do. Thank god Brown fumbled to hand us the game.

Holcomb was terrible outside of the 1st quarter. Miami gave us this game. If we play like that against the Jets we will lose. If this last game was in Miami we would've lost.

Is this the kind of play that will beat teams like the Patriots, Chargers, Chiefs, Broncos and the other tough games we have? Not a chance. Holcomb is not the answer and we will finish no better then 6-10 with him at the helm if he plays out the rest of the year.I'm with you. I guess JP does a better job not fumbling the ball but the bills lose in the end anyways.

[Throne Logic]

What about Atlanta? At the Ralph? The Falcons were so depleted at the cornerback position they were warming up Meathead and FBH in the tunnel, just in case.

Are you trying to say Losman didn't play against a beat-up Falcons team?

Poor coaching choices. Willis should have carried the ball more.


Making excuses already, so that when the Bills beat NY this weekend you can throw in another 'yeah, but...'?

Come off it. I don't make excuses. I'm just pointing out that the timing for JP to make a breakthrough (within the 6 game timeframe I truly expected JP to have the job regardless of what happened) was perfectly in line with these two back to back weaker division opponents. The situation was set up as perfect as it ever will be in the NFL and the coaches and/or head office became gun-shy and blew the ideal opportunity.


Get real--JP had a full quarter of the season to prove he was ready to handle the pressure of playing QB in the NFL and he **** his pants. No speculation whatsoever, a proven fact.

If you truly believe that 4 games is enough to evaluate the abilities of a green QB, then you are the one who needs to "get real". Every analyst who played QB in the NFL and is actually looking at the big picture in Buffalo, says the same thing. JP was pulled too soon. Tampa Bay has already caused more than one QB to require half-time underwear swaps. And, as I said, HAND THE FRIGGIN' BALL OFF TO WILLIS.

Doesn't matter now, regardless of my opinions. Holcomb is starting. I do not want to doom this team to another few years of mediocrity. But this is exactly what I feel they are doing.

Put in young inexperienced QB as starter. He struggles early. Pull him too soon in favor of average backup. Plan to re-instate young and still inexperienced QB as starter in off-season.

Rinse and repeat.

Spinning wheel keeps on spinning.

"Nobody drives their wagons in circles like the Buffalo Bills."

[Iehoshua]

If you truly believe that 4 games is enough to evaluate the abilities of a green QB, then you are the one who needs to "get real". Every analyst who played QB in the NFL and is actually looking at the big picture in Buffalo, says the same thing. JP was pulled too soon.
:up:

Well said!

[Throne Logic]

Same thing can be said with JPs almost 6-9 almost Ints. against Houston, Atlanta, Tampa Bay, N.O.
We are just lucky they couldn't catch.

This is a large part of the point that many folks are trying to get across. JP and Holcomb are both struggling. Why go with the one that hasn't done too much to better his abilities over nearly a decade in the NFL? You go with the one who still has the chance to show his upside.

[The_Philster]

What gaurantees a Super Bowl if JP is starting? Nothing. Not now, not ever. I'll take 'almost' over 'no chance in hell' any time.Now you're guaranteeing something...that we won't ever..based on what, may I ask? :popcorn:

[YardRat]

Now you're guaranteeing something...that we won't ever..based on what, may I ask? :popcorn:

I didn't mean to imply that the Bills had no chance in hell of ever winning a Super Bowl with JP...it was to point out having JP as the QB doesn't guarantee a SB victory in the future.

The "almost" vs "no chance in hell" comments refer to this season specifically..although we certainly haven't, and very well may not, pull an "almost" with Holcomb at QB, we've got a better chance at making the play-offs with him, and "no chance in hell" with Losman. I've seen enough to convince me of that.

My bad for the misunderstanding.

[YardRat]

Poor coaching choices. Willis should have carried the ball more.

Buffalo ran the ball 35times against Atlanta, compared to 23 passes. Shall we just give up on the forward pass completely, put JP back in and resort to the Wing-T ???

They also ran the ball more than they passed, by a large margin, against Houston, New Orleans, and Miami.




If you truly believe that 4 games is enough to evaluate the abilities of a green QB, then you are the one who needs to "get real". Every analyst who played QB in the NFL and is actually looking at the big picture in Buffalo, says the same thing. JP was pulled too soon. Tampa Bay has already caused more than one QB to require half-time underwear swaps. And, as I said, HAND THE FRIGGIN' BALL OFF TO WILLIS.

Could you post some of the comments from analysts who were former QB's?? I'm having trouble finding them.

And, as I said, LOOK AT THE FRIGGIN STATS. WILLIS IS GETTING THE BALL PLENTY.

[Mr. Cynical]

Could you post some of the comments from analysts who were former QB's?? I'm having trouble finding them.

http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?t=82977

I agree with you about Willis getting the ball enough. That's not the problem.

[YardRat]

Thanks for the link, Mr. C :D At least that's how Jaws feels.

I was having trouble finding the likes of Marino, Simms, Esiason, Aikman, Theisman, etc.

[Mr. Cynical]

Thanks for the link, Mr. C :D At least that's how Jaws feels.

I was having trouble finding the likes of Marino, Simms, Esiason, Aikman, Theisman, etc.

You're welcome. :up:

P.S. I'd take Jaws' opinion over any of those guys except maybe Aikman or Marino. He's been a top QB *and* studies film extensively for his spots on TV, as it clear by his breakdown analysis of the plays. IMO, simms, boomer and theismann are morons. Especially theismann. Whew.