Technically?

[HHURRICANE]

You now I have been criticized for wanting to start JP and work on developing this team for a more realistic run next year. But with so many of you being smarter, and not being quitters like me, I've decided that we can make the playoffs.

Obviously, I'm not that smart so can anyone just tell me which games the Bills will win and which ones the Pats will lose so we can get in? I just need some analysis to help me with my transformation. Thank you.

[OpIv37]

You're asking for logic and reasoning. The people who still think we can make the playoffs have yet to show either- just a lot of talk about "fighting to the end" and "any given Sunday".

[Pride]

As long as it is mathematically possible, you need to keep playing.

If I remember correctly, most of you castrated coaches who have said they were out of it when, in fact, they werent!

I am a season ticket holder, and damnit, I want to go see games where my team feels it has a chance to win! Some of you who make 1-2 trips a year might care less... but there are 35,000 of us who want to have our tickets worth something!

[hammerbillsfan]

As long as it is mathematically possible, you need to keep playing.

If I remember correctly, most of you castrated coaches who have said they were out of it when, in fact, they werent!

I am a season ticket holder, and damnit, I want to go see games where my team feels it has a chance to win! Some of you who make 1-2 trips a year might care less... but there are 35,000 of us who want to have our tickets worth something!
<!-- / message -->
:goodpost:

[justasportsfan]

You're asking for logic and reasoning. The people who still think we can make the playoffs have yet to show either- just a lot of talk about "fighting to the end" and "any given Sunday".you haven't come up with any reasons or logic to explain the things I asked you about the pats , any given sunday "fins vs. Pats last year" etc.

Ya'll can surrender all you want and keep making "we give up threads" . Thing is, some of us fans and the team don't share that white flag atttitude. :D

[justasportsfan]

You now I have been criticized for wanting to start JP and work on developing this team for a more realistic run next year. But with so many of you being smarter, and not being quitters like me, I've decided that we can make the playoffs.

Obviously, I'm not that smart so can anyone just tell me which games the Bills will win and which ones the Pats will lose so we can get in? I just need some analysis to help me with my transformation. Thank you.No one said we're smarter than you but if that's what you feel then that's all you. But what we're saying is that we don't give up like you do.

[HHURRICANE]

I am a season ticket holder, and damnit, I want to go see games where my team feels it has a chance to win! Some of you who make 1-2 trips a year might care less... but there are 35,000 of us who want to have our tickets worth something!

I understand your point and as somebody who did not miss a game from 88-93 when I still lived up there I see why. However, I still have many friends who go to every game and don't want to be watching this crappy product next year and the year after. The gameplan after last season was to play with Losman. He gets 4 games and we pull him. Are you telling me that you are not going to the game if Losman is the starter? I think our front office including MM have no balls. I really have a hard time believing we would be 1-7 with Losamn as the starter.

[bills&sabresmvf]

"Playoffs! You want to talk about Playoffs!" Thank you Mr. Mora

[OpIv37]

you haven't come up with any reasons or logic to explain the things I asked you about the pats , any given sunday "fins vs. Pats last year" etc.
Ya'll can surrender all you want and keep making "we give up threads" . Thing is, some of us fans and the team don't share that white flag atttitude. :D
get off the white flag bull****. It's about preparing for the future. We don't want next year to be wasted too.

[HHURRICANE]

By the way I'm still waiting for someone to post the games we are going to win to get into the playoffs. Is anybody seeing my point yet?

[OpIv37]

By the way I'm still waiting for someone to post the games we are going to win to get into the playoffs. Is anybody seeing my point yet?

good luck- it's all based on "not giving up" and "any given sunday" and "it's still possible" and "the pats did it 4 years ago".

No thought is given to what this team would have to do to beat the teams on our schedule. No thought is given to the possibility of NE losing enough games for us to overtake them. It's all just cliches and conjecture.

[BAM]

you haven't come up with any reasons or logic to explain the things I asked you about the pats , any given sunday "fins vs. Pats last year" etc.

Ya'll can surrender all you want and keep making "we give up threads" . Thing is, some of us fans and the team don't share that white flag atttitude. :D

GOT EVIDENCE???

[BSXIII]

We have a very slim chance of making the playoffs this year, but until Losman shows some basic fundamentals he has no business being on the field in the NFL. Yes gaining experience is key to a players success, but that involves making the most of your playing time. Losman was running around like a chicken with his head cut off on every play. He needs to learn that he's not at Tulane anymore, and to wait for plays to develop. Until he learns basic fundamentals, playing time will be useless as he'll just keep relying on his old bad habits. In other words, he still needs a lot more practice.

[L.A. Playa]

7-1 down the stretch, Carolina, KC and Denver arent great road teams the Bills are a good home team. The Bills Upset San Diego, lose to Cincinnatti on the road.

That leaves NE at home and NY and Miami on the road all winable games and I say they win them.

Final record 10-6 and win the division

[OpIv37]

7-1 down the stretch, Carolina, KC and Denver arent great road teams the Bills are a good home team. The Bills Upset San Diego, lose to Cincinnatti on the road.


how do you account for the fact that KC, Denver and SD have excellent running games and the Bills have yet to stop the run, even at home?

[L.A. Playa]

I have my opinion you have yours

[L.A. Playa]

and of course yours will always be the most negative opinion available and you cant deal with someone who sees the glass half full I will feel it will be 7-1 until they lose 2 games in the second half

[OpIv37]

I have my opinion you have yours

well what's your opinion on how we can stop the running games of KC, Denver and SD?

[BAM]

well what's your opinion on how we can stop the running games of KC, Denver and SD?

By keeping them off the field. I don't necessarily believe that we can stop them, but if we continue keeping the ball for well over half the game, it won't matter. The only thing we need to do is capitalize on the long drives. When that starts happening, we start winning. Nothing is impossible.

[L.A. Playa]

how will they stop the running game of Buffalo ? they havent proven to be great defenses ?? The Jets should have beaten SD last week, Miami beat Denver and KC defense still isnt stellar, the best defense will be a strong running game that eats up clock by Buffalo

[Pride]

I understand the argument of why put JP after just 4 games... however, this team was supposed to be a playoff team... even with him at QB. When they saw the QB was NOT allowing them to do so, they went to option B. A QB who they felt could get them to the playoffs.

They didnt go into this season thinking REBUILDING... if they had... then by all means, play JP... no matter how bad he is. But since they thought they had as good of a chance as any in the AFCE, they went for the wins over the learning experience. And I dont blame them!

[OpIv37]

I understand the argument of why put JP after just 4 games... however, this team was supposed to be a playoff team... even with him at QB. When they saw the QB was NOT allowing them to do so, they went to option B. A QB who they felt could get them to the playoffs.

They didnt go into this season thinking REBUILDING... if they had... then by all means, play JP... no matter how bad he is. But since they thought they had as good of a chance as any in the AFCE, they went for the wins over the learning experience. And I dont blame them!


The QB play was only ONE factor that was keeping this team from playing at playoff level. The collapse of the D was an even bigger factor, and the thought that this wasn't a rebuilding year occurred before the D fell apart.

[DarbyTheDinosaur]

and of course yours will always be the most negative opinion available and you cant deal with someone who sees the glass half full I will feel it will be 7-1 until they lose 2 games in the second half

Playa is right...and when they lose 2 games, we will say they should go 6-2, and when they lose 3, they should go 5-3...it's like Pride said, and it's like Playa says...you keep playing until you are out. Then you can start your grooming process for future years.

If you started to run a marathon and by the time you were halfway done realized...you know what? I don't think I am going to beat those guys ahead of me...would you give up in the middle of it? Or would you push a little harder in the hopes that by the finish, you wioll have caught up to them?

[OpIv37]

Playa is right...and when they lose 2 games, we will say they should go 6-2, and when they lose 3, they should go 5-3...it's like Pride said, and it's like Playa says...you keep playing until you are out. Then you can start your grooming process for future years.

If you started to run a marathon and by the time you were halfway done realized...you know what? I don't think I am going to beat those guys ahead of me...would you give up in the middle of it? Or would you push a little harder in the hopes that by the finish, you wioll have caught up to them?

people run marathons for different reasons- some to prove they can finish, some to beat their personal best, some to win the race. At some point a runner may think "well I'm not going to win but I might be able to beat my personal best", or "I'm not going to win so what can I take from this that will help in my next marathon"?

Most runners in a marathon KNOW they don't have a prayer to win so they focus on a different goal. That's where the Bills are at- they can push themselves to try to win an unwinable race at the risk of hurting themselves, or they can pick a different goal and make the best of a bad situation.

[L.A. Playa]

you know Op you are a cool guy in person but you can come off like a real ******* on this board I am glad I met you before the Bills started struggling LOL

[HHURRICANE]

7-1 down the stretch, Carolina, KC and Denver arent great road teams the Bills are a good home team. The Bills Upset San Diego, lose to Cincinnatti on the road.

That leaves NE at home and NY and Miami on the road all winable games and I say they win them.

Final record 10-6 and win the division

You get kudos for putting up how. The fact that Carolina, KC and Denver are at home helps but we couldn't stop Atlanta from running all over us at home, and Denver and KC can run! If we beat San Diego on the road that would be an accomplishment!

[L.A. Playa]

You get kudos for putting up how. The fact that Carolina, KC and Denver are at home helps but we couldn't stop Atlanta from running all over us at home, and Denver and KC can run! If we beat San Diego on the road that would be an accomplishment!

well the arguement with the Atlanta game is that was a winable game even though they ran over us, JP struggled maybe Holcomb gives us just enough Quality QB play for the Bills to win that game despite the fact we got run over

[OpIv37]

you know Op you are a cool guy in person but you can come off like a real ******* on this board I am glad I met you before the Bills started struggling LOL

I'm just saying that sacrifices need to be made- the chances of making the playoffs are so slim that I'd rather just start preparing for the future- IMO it's the best way to try to get something good out of a bad situation.

Some of you have the ability to be optimistic despite how bad we look on the field. Every time I start to get some hope for this team, I watch opponents tear off runs in 30 yard chunks and I watch us cough up the ball our coaches pass on 1st and 10 when we're winning and it just sucks the hope right back out of me. I want to see this team win, but I just can't believe in them until I see a reason to believe on the field.

[OpIv37]

well the arguement with the Atlanta game is that was a winable game even though they ran over us, JP struggled maybe Holcomb gives us just enough Quality QB play for the Bills to win that game despite the fact we got run over

I think Atlanta had us the whole way, and it's really hard to win a game after watching the best player leave the field on a cart. But I think you may have a point about NO and Tampa Bay- if the offense could have stayed on the field, we would have won both of them.

[HHURRICANE]

Playa is right...and when they lose 2 games, we will say they should go 6-2, and when they lose 3, they should go 5-3...it's like Pride said, and it's like Playa says...you keep playing until you are out. Then you can start your grooming process for future years.

You know if Losman does not start getting consisitent starts it's going to be like this for next 2 seasons. Plays well, plays bad, pull him, lose a few, put him back in, pull him out. This is a BS way to run a team. Nobody can say he sucks or he is great because he has not played enough to know. Furthermore, our offense has looked like **** for 3 seasons so why are people saying he sucks because he couldn't find open receivers or was bouncing around in the pocket. Yeah Holcomb is more poised becaused he has 10 years of experience. EXPERIENCE!!!! Bledsoe looked like **** last year so are you telling me that Holcomb is better than Bledsoe. Come on people.

[L.A. Playa]

OP 1 game back with 8 to play are not slim chances, I am an optimist and always see the best in everything I admit that. But playoff chances are stil lstrong at this point inspite of the situation.

Imagine if the Houston Astros used your theory and decided to tank the season when they where playing bad rather than get things together. ANything can happen in sports

[Patrick76777]

You now I have been criticized for wanting to start JP and work on developing this team for a more realistic run next year. But with so many of you being smarter, and not being quitters like me, I've decided that we can make the playoffs.

Obviously, I'm not that smart so can anyone just tell me which games the Bills will win and which ones the Pats will lose so we can get in? I just need some analysis to help me with my transformation. Thank you.
Easy!

Week 10 - Without P. Holmes, the Bills contain Larry Johnson to 110 yards and Green can’t deal with the crowd noise. McGahee shreds the KC D. We win. New England goes to Miami and loses a tough one. They never play well down there and Miami has played great at home this year. Bills 4-5, (2-1) NE 4-5 (1-1)

Week 11 - SD kills us, NE kills the Saints Bills 4-6, NE 5-5

Week 12 – Carolina is good, but most of their games have been dogfights. Plus the weather should be nice and terrible. Bills win big game at home. NE goes to KC and gets rolled at one of the toughest places to play in the league. Bills 5-6, NE 5-6

Week 13 – Bills win VERY tough game in Miami. Game is tougher then the last 2 home games. NE rolls against the Jets, Bills 6-6 (3-1) NE 6-6 (2-1)

Week 14 – We finish the Job and roll NE here. Let out all of our frustrations on Bruschi. Bills 7-6 (4-1) NE 6-7 (2-2)

Week 15 and 16, The Bills split in games against Denver and at Cincy. NE sweeps Tampa Bay and the Jets. Bills 8-7 (4-1) NE 8-7 (3-2)

Week 17, The Jets are running for the bus. We kill them. Who cares what NE does, we win the tie breaker. Bills 9-7 (5-1), NE 9-7 (4-2)

Miami finishes 7-9!

Division, Playoffs and a home game.

[L.A. Playa]

Holcomb has played better than Bledsoe did last year against Pittsburgh 3rd stringers and played better at NE than Bledsoe ever did. HE is not better than Bledsoe but seems to be managing the game better than Bledsoe had and doesnt try to win the game all by himself which Bledsoe has done in the past

[justasportsfan]

get off the white flag bull****. It's about preparing for the future. We don't want next year to be wasted too.
It's a white flag. If we were out of it, then it would be different. :tongue:

[OpIv37]

OP 1 game back with 8 to play are not slim chances.

It's true that we're only one game back and we still have a home game against the team in the lead. But I think to say it's not slim chances is only half the equasion. You also have to consider how we've been playing and how our opponents have been playing, and that's what concerns me. Could this team turn it around? Sure it's possible, but they don't have a stellar record of doing that:

-back to back division wins, followed by a throttling by the hapless Raiders
-Overcoming the odds to beat the Pats, in a night game, in their house, when they're coming off a bye, for 3 1/2 quarters only to blow it at the end
-A miraculous run last season followed by a loss to Pittsburgh's second and third stringers.

Once this team shows an ability to break this trend, I'll believe.

[justasportsfan]

I'm just saying that sacrifices need to be made- the chances of making the playoffs are so slim that I'd rather just start preparing for the future- IMO it's the best way to try to get something good out of a bad situation..tell that to players on this team that we need to sacrifice you guys because you suck . :shakeno:

Some of you have the ability to be optimistic despite how bad we look on the field. Every time I start to get some hope for this team, I watch opponents tear off runs in 30 yard chunks and I watch us cough up the ball our coaches pass on 1st and 10 when we're winning and it just sucks the hope right back out of me. I want to see this team win, but I just can't believe in them until I see a reason to believe on the field.It's not about being optimistic. It's about exhausting all effort and doing you best to win games even though things are not looking good. How hard is that for you to understand? Mularkey isn't the only one doing the same thing. So is Saban and Edwards because they know that they still have a shot if they play their best qb's and not think about developing anyone else.

[L.A. Playa]

well a bye week and a chance to correct errors get players healthy, I would rather take lets see what happens approach.

Oakland looked at the game against us as a playoff game and have been playing alot better, and the NE was a tough loss but showed alot to me and gives me hop for teh rest of the season. If the Bills play like that but cash in with TDS instead of FGS they will have no problem going 7-1 down the stretch.

In the NFL the best teams in the 2nd half are the ones who succeed in the playoffs. Peyton Manning could blow out a knee this week and INDY go 3-5 or 2-6 in their last 8 and lose the first playoff game, then who is ever gonna remember they went 8-0 to start its how you finish, I would nt watch another game this year if I thought like you do to be honest

[justasportsfan]

good luck- it's all based on "not giving up" and "any given sunday" and "it's still possible" and "the pats did it 4 years ago".
No thought is given to what this team would have to do to beat the teams on our schedule. No thought is given to the possibility of NE losing enough games for us to overtake them. It's all just cliches and conjecture.

Couldn't expalin something that contadicts your logic Eh?

No thought given on the rest of the AFCE sucking therefore having the div. title up for grabs. White flag. :D.

[OpIv37]

tell that to players on this team that we need to sacrifice you guys because you suck . :shakeno:

It's not about being optimistic. It's about exhausting all effort and doing you best to win games even though things are not looking good. How hard is that for you to understand? Mularkey isn't the only one doing the same thing. So is Saban and Edwards because they know that they still have a shot if they play their best qb's and not think about developing anyone else.

it's short-sighted and it's gonna get us into the exact same situation at this time next year. You can't always live for the moment.

You want to motivate the players- you remind them that 90% of them are going to be here next year too. That there aren't a lot of free agents available so the improvement's going to have to come internally. That if they don't suck it up now, they're going to suck next year too. You think they want to lose 2 years in a row?

[OpIv37]

Couldn't expalin something that contadicts your logic Eh?
No thought given on the rest of the AFCE sucking therefore having the div. title up for grabs. White flag. :D.

ok want you use your logic- the Pats did it 4 years ago. How many teams DIDN'T in that same time period. You're using the exception as the example.

Also the Pats weren't in the same situation as the Bills- their young QB was already playing.

[Patrick76777]

well a bye week and a chance to correct errors get players healthy, I would rather take lets see what happens approach.
Oakland looked at the game against us as a playoff game and have been playing alot better, and the NE was a tough loss but showed alot to me and gives me hop for teh rest of the season. If the Bills play like that but cash in with TDS instead of FGS they will have no problem going 7-1 down the stretch.
In the NFL the best teams in the 2nd half are the ones who succeed in the playoffs. Peyton Manning could blow out a knee this week and INDY go 3-5 or 2-6 in their last 8 and lose the first playoff game, then who is ever gonna remember they went 8-0 to start its how you finish, I would nt watch another game this year if I thought like you do to be honest


So true. Every year I look at the teams at about 5-6 or 6-5 after 11 games. These are the teams that can string together 4 or 5 wins and go into the playoffs hot. That's what NE did for their first Superbowl. I think Baltimore did it for theirs also.

[justasportsfan]

You can't always live for the moment.
You want to motivate the players- you remind them that 90% of them are going to be here next year too. what makes you think that they will want to stay here after the coaches tells them we have no faith in you so well just use the rest of the season to develop a qb who may not even pan out? :shakeno:

[OpIv37]

I would nt watch another game this year if I thought like you do to be honest

win, lose or draw we only get 16 a year. Even during the 3-13 season I was at a bar watching the last meaningless game.

[OpIv37]

what makes you think that they will want to stay here after the coaches tells them we have no faith in you so well just use the rest of the season to develop a qb who may not even pan out? :shakeno:

what makes you think they have a choice on staying here? We don't have a lot of free agents.

[justasportsfan]

ok want you use your logic- the Pats did it 4 years ago. How many teams DIDN'T in that same time period. You're using the exception as the example.. Don't look at me. You're the one who started all this evidence crap. All I did was show you EVIDENCE that when the odds are against you and you try your best, you can win. EVIDENCE :D


Also the Pats weren't in the same situation as the Bills- their young QB was already playing.and this goes against your logic that a qb won't learn by watching. Brady watched and learned. :D.

[Patrick76777]

ok want you use your logic- the Pats did it 4 years ago. How many teams DIDN'T in that same time period. You're using the exception as the example.

Also the Pats weren't in the same situation as the Bills- their young QB was already playing.


Actually, the second Brady went in he played very well. He didn’t need a whole season to “learn” how to play.

[OpIv37]

Don't look at me. You're the one who started all this evidence crap. All I did was show you EVIDENCE that when the odds are against you and you try your best, you can win. EVIDENCE :D


ok let's play that game- there is a lot more EVIDENCE that shows teams in our situation going nowhere than teams in our situation winning. While there is EVIDENCE that shows teams can succeed, the majority of it suggests that teams can't. So, you're only looking at the evidence that supports your argument and ignoring the overwhelming amount of evidence that contradicts it.

[justasportsfan]

what makes you think they have a choice on staying here? We don't have a lot of free agents. the ones that will stay behing will know that their coaches have no faith in them because you just pulled the plug on them when they had a chance to live. You let those players decide the outcome ON THE FIELD and not by default.

[L.A. Playa]

Holcomb was quoted as saying something that was interesting to me he was the Backup for Manning and Couch in their first season and he said that Manning went into the season knowing he would struggle but was determined to learn from his mistakes, but JP and Tim Couch went into the season thinking they would have success right away and both struggled. Just an interesting take from Holcomb if you ask me

[OpIv37]

the ones that will stay behing will know that their coaches have no faith in them because you just pulled the plug on them when they had a chance to live. You let those players decide the outcome ON THE FIELD and not by default.

decide on the field like they decided the Raiders, NO, TB, NE and Atlanta games on field? Good choice.

[justasportsfan]

ok let's play that game- there is a lot more EVIDENCE that shows teams in our situation going nowhere than teams in our situation winning. While there is EVIDENCE that shows teams can succeed, the majority of it suggests that teams can't. So, you're only looking at the evidence that supports your argument and ignoring the overwhelming amount of evidence that contradicts it.Do you even read what you write? there's more evidence that when you give up you go nowhere. No one is saying that the odds are on our side. You play the game , stop trying to assume crap when we are still in it.

I see you disregard my post (again) about Saban and Edwrds not giving up. :shakeno:

[OpIv37]

Do you even read what you write? there's more evidence that when you give up you go nowhere. No one is saying that the odds are on our side. You play the game , stop trying to assume crap when we are still in it.
I see you disregard my post (again) about Saban and Edwrds not giving up. :shakeno:

Saban and Edwards aren't in the same situation we are. The Dolphins know they're in a rebuilding mode and the Jets got burned by injuries.

As as far as having faith in the players, what have the players done to earn the faith of the coaching staff?

[L.A. Playa]

:movie:

[OpIv37]

Do you even read what you write? there's more evidence that when you give up you go nowhere. No one is saying that the odds are on our side. You play the game , stop trying to assume crap when we are still in it.
I see you disregard my post (again) about Saban and Edwrds not giving up. :shakeno:

and one more thing- it's NOT about giving up. It's about preparing for the future. You can't have it both ways- grooming the young guys and making the playoffs. IF we play for the playoffs and DON'T make it, this season is a waste. No playoffs and JP is no better. If we start playing JP and some of the other young guys, at least we'll be better off for next year and this season won't be a total wash.

[L.A. Playa]

lets play the what if game, what if JP is never more than a backup in the NFL.

Holcomb starts again next year and we sign or trade for another QB after the 2006 season but make the playoffs the next 2 years.

We havea 1st Rd bust in JP but teams have 1st RD busts all the time, maybe just maybe the coaches saw something in practice and in the games you didnt see and determined he just is not ready.

Putting him in would hurt more than help and what if he is a bust and will never be a quality NFL QB then you are willing to waste the nxt 2-4 years ??

[OpIv37]

lets play the what if game, what if JP is never more than a backup in the NFL.
Holcomb starts again next year and we sign or trade for another QB after the 2006 season but make the playoffs the next 2 years.
We havea 1st Rd bust in JP but teams have 1st RD busts all the time, maybe just maybe the coaches saw something in practice and in the games you didnt see and determined he just is not ready.
Putting him in would hurt more than help and what if he is a bust and will never be a quality NFL QB then you are willing to waste the nxt 2-4 years ??

the coaches didn't see a potential bust in JP before this season started, so I doubt they changed their tune after just 4 games. If JP is a bust and never amounts to more than just a back-up, we have to find out. If he plays the rest of this season without improving, we'll have a pretty good indiction that he's a bust or career back-up at best and we can move on from there. But if he doesn't play, we just dont' know.

Basically, if Losman develops we'll know we have our guy. If he doesn't, we'll know we need to look elsewhere. Either way we're better off than having him as a big question mark on the bench.

[L.A. Playa]

Hey I am an optimist but besides really the 1st half of the season opener the way JP played was one of the worst performances I have ever seen b any QB, other great QB's may have started out with a bad game but then came back and showed in the next game the flashes that gave you hope in the first place that they would succeed.

JP really has not had even one play this year in presason or the regular season that you could honestly see and say wow he is gonna be a great QB.

While Holcomb has not made a great play either at least he has calmed the offense down and been somewhat productive.

What I have seen so far is JP is not ready and I hope he does develop into a great QB but all the playing time in the world right now would do nothing he needs to learn on the sideline this year and compete for the job in training camp next year in my opinion.

If he can win the job in competition I have no problem with him starting next year but as of right now I would start Shane Matthews over him because not only has JP not made a play this year he plays nervous and scared and that affects the play of the whole team.

[OpIv37]

I agree with your assessment of JP's performance, but I think he's only gonna get better if he plays. He had all last year on the sidelines and it didn't seem to help.

[L.A. Playa]

I agree with your assessment of JP's performance, but I think he's only gonna get better if he plays. He had all last year on the sidelines and it didn't seem to help.

Well if thats the case then I think he will be a bust, right now in my opinion he is the 3rd best player at his position on the team.

Whether in a postion to go to the playoffs or not the coaches job is to put the best player at each position on the field.

WOuld you rather the Bills play Gates than Mc Gahee so he can fufill his potential.

JP needs to learn but not on the field till he proves he can handle it in practice which obviously is not happening or he would be back in there

[Patrick76777]

Well if thats the case then I think he will be a bust, right now in my opinion he is the 3rd best player at his position on the team.
Whether in a postion to go to the playoffs or not the coaches job is to put the best player at each position on the field.
WOuld you rather the Bills play Gates than Mc Gahee so he can fufill his potential.
JP needs to learn but not on the field till he proves he can handle it in practice which obviously is not happening or he would be back in there


I was thinking the same thing. If this guy were tearing it up in practice, he'd be in there. If he's not getting it in practice, playing in a game isn't going to help.

[L.A. Playa]

studies have shown the most intelligent, attractive, funny and greates men in the world are named Patrick so it doesnt suprise me thay you had that thought

[justasportsfan]

decide on the field like they decided the Raiders, NO, TB, NE and Atlanta games on field? Good choice.despite our performance we're still i it. We don't know for sure if the team can turn this thing around unless they play the next few games. Here's another evidence, jet's start 0-4 and then made playoffs. :D

[justasportsfan]

Saban and Edwards aren't in the same situation we are. The Dolphins know they're in a rebuilding mode and the Jets got burned by injuries.
As as far as having faith in the players, what have the players done to earn the faith of the coaching staff?Guess what bills fans are gonna say if either a rebuilding team or an injury bugged team ends up making playoffs because the coaches decided you were right in tanking the season to develop a player?

[justasportsfan]

and one more thing- it's NOT about giving up. It's about preparing for the future. You can't have it both ways- grooming the young guys and making the playoffs. IF we play for the playoffs and DON'T make it, this season is a waste. No playoffs and JP is no better. If we start playing JP and some of the other young guys, at least we'll be better off for next year and this season won't be a total wa******'s giving up on the season no matter how you try to spin it when you are mathematically still in it and yank your best players so you can develop the youth. Do you agree then that the minute we sit KH we might as well sit Willis and bring Gates in to develop?

[OpIv37]

It's giving up on the season no matter how you try to spin it when you are mathematically still in it and yank your best players so you can develop the youth. Do you agree then that the minute we sit KH we might as well sit Willis and bring Gates in to develop?

no, because willis is still young and learning himself. Plus Willis is likely to be here for a long time- 3-4 years at least depending on how his health holds out. Losman IS expected to be an impact player in the near future- Gates isn't.

That being said, if we end up 3-8 or so I wouldn't mind seeing Gates share some time with Willis to A) lessen the chance of Willis getting hurt in meaningless games and B) get Gates some experience in the unlikely event he has to step in and play.

[L.A. Playa]

no, because willis is still young and learning himself. Plus Willis is likely to be here for a long time- 3-4 years at least depending on how his health holds out. Losman IS expected to be an impact player in the near future- Gates isn't.
That being said, if we end up 3-8 or so I wouldn't mind seeing Gates share some time with Willis to A) lessen the chance of Willis getting hurt in meaningless games and B) get Gates some experience in the unlikely event he has to step in and play.

Op please tell me you really dont belive what you posted there

[OpIv37]

Op please tell me you really dont belive what you posted there

what's wrong with it? Justa is comparing a player who is on the roster as a back-up to one who is supposed to be our franchise QB, it's not the same thing.

And as far as resting starters if our record is so bad it becomes meaningless, what's wrong with that? I'm not saying to start the second team- I'm saying to rotate some of the back-ups in so they can improve in game situations and help lessen the chance of Spikes- or McGahee-like injuries to our key guys.

[L.A. Playa]

you really think any NFL coach is gonna do that OP ??

[OpIv37]

you really think any NFL coach is gonna do that OP ??

yeah well at some point reality is gonna bite them in the ass. this team has tons of holes, and little cap room for free agency. And given TD's strategy of drafting the "best player available" rather than trying to fill holes through the draft, we can't count on that either. At some point you need to experiment with the guys you have. Again, I'm not saying to play the second team. I'm saying get a few series with the starters in for guys like Gates, Eric King, Geisinger etc just to see what they do. If we're 3-8 and Carolina's beating us 35-3 in the third quarter, what's it gonna hurt? It's not like we're gonna win, and even if we do win it's not like we're gonna make the playoffs.

[L.A. Playa]

well Op you certainly have an interesting take on things and I respect that because it is your opinion but I will have to agree to disagree with you

[justasportsfan]

no, because willis is still young and learning himself. Plus Willis is likely to be here for a long time- 3-4 years at least depending on how his health holds out. Losman IS expected to be an impact player in the near future- Gates isn't.
That being said, if we end up 3-8 or so I wouldn't mind seeing Gates share some time with Willis to A) lessen the chance of Willis getting hurt in meaningless games and B) get Gates some experience in the unlikely event he has to step in and play.double standards. Willis is already proven. You want to put him into a situation where we already gave up on the season so he can blow his knee? Are you gonna ask him to play his best even though he's just playing to develop another player? Same with the rest of the team who you already gave a NO VOTE of confidence?

[OpIv37]

will it happen? It may not, but there seems to be absolutely no vision involved with this team. There's no offensive identity, there's no adjustments or new ideas when things don't work, and there's no plan for improvement. Cincinatti patiently develops guys, NE finds bargain players who are capable and willing to contribute, Indy shells out to keep key talent and Washington raids the FA market every year. The Bills do none of the above- if that's the strategy, they should at least take a look at who's on the roster.

[justasportsfan]

yeah well at some point reality is gonna bite them in the ass. this team has tons of holes, and little cap room for free agency. And given TD's strategy of drafting the "best player available" rather than trying to fill holes through the draft, we can't count on that either. At some point you need to experiment with the guys you have. Again, I'm not saying to play the second team. I'm saying get a few series with the starters in for guys like Gates, Eric King, Geisinger etc just to see what they do. If we're 3-8 and Carolina's beating us 35-3 in the third quarter, what's it gonna hurt? It's not like we're gonna win, and even if we do win it's not like we're gonna make the playoffs.I agree At SOME POINT. That point would be when we're out of it. If we quit now while both the jets and Fins haven't and either one of them makes it to the playoffs because the Bills gave up too early you are gonna have some explaining to do to the fans , players and the rest of the League who are laughing at you especially if JP doesn't pan out in the future. I have evidence again, Wade Philipps.

Great way to lose your fans and your job

[L.A. Playa]

took Cincinatti how many years to get where they are now ?? hope the Bills dont have that kind of patience

[OpIv37]

double standards. Willis is already proven.

you just contradicted yourself. How is it a double standard if Willis is already proven and JP isn't? You're talking about two players in very different situations, so it's not a double standard at all to have different ways of handling them.

Plus, what's JP gonna learn if he's surrounded by back-ups? The whole point of putting him in is to get him REAL experience- it's not real game experience if he's in the game surrounded by 2nd and 3rd stringers.

[Billzz]

Easy!
Week 10 - Without P. Holmes, the Bills contain Larry Johnson to 110 yards and Green can’t deal with the crowd noise. McGahee shreds the KC D. We win. New England goes to Miami and loses a tough one. They never play well down there and Miami has played great at home this year. Bills 4-5, (2-1) NE 4-5 (1-1)
Week 11 - SD kills us, NE kills the Saints Bills 4-6, NE 5-5
Week 12 – Carolina is good, but most of their games have been dogfights. Plus the weather should be nice and terrible. Bills win big game at home. NE goes to KC and gets rolled at one of the toughest places to play in the league. Bills 5-6, NE 5-6
Week 13 – Bills win VERY tough game in Miami. Game is tougher then the last 2 home games. NE rolls against the Jets, Bills 6-6 (3-1) NE 6-6 (2-1)
Week 14 – We finish the Job and roll NE here. Let out all of our frustrations on Bruschi. Bills 7-6 (4-1) NE 6-7 (2-2)
Week 15 and 16, The Bills split in games against Denver and at Cincy. NE sweeps Tampa Bay and the Jets. Bills 8-7 (4-1) NE 8-7 (3-2)
Week 17, The Jets are running for the bus. We kill them. Who cares what NE does, we win the tie breaker. Bills 9-7 (5-1), NE 9-7 (4-2)
Miami finishes 7-9!
Division, Playoffs and a home game.


Thank You Patrick.

[justasportsfan]

will it happen? It may not, but there seems to be absolutely no vision involved with this team. There's no offensive identity, there's no adjustments or new ideas when things don't work, and there's no plan for improvement. Cincinatti patiently develops guys, NE finds bargain players who are capable and willing to contribute, Indy shells out to keep key talent and Washington raids the FA market every year. The Bills do none of the above- if that's the strategy, they should at least take a look at who's on the roster.the absolute way to know for sure is play the game. I've been trying to tell you that for the longest time and you come back w/ questions and your assumptions that only the team can answer.

I understand it's important to develop JP . He's not the only player on this team. You listen to the TEAM and if your team asks that they decide their fate on the field , you do it so they cannot come back and say, 'you put one player above the entire team when we had a chance".

We will never agree obviously and I respect that. But everytime you attempt to tell us that we are wrong in trying to do our best when there is hope is where we have a problem because you yourself cannot guarantee us that JP is a sure thing if we start him now.

[OpIv37]

.
I understand it's important to develop JP . He's not the only player on this team. You listen to the TEAM and if your team asks that they decide their fate on the field , you do it so they cannot come back and say, 'you put one player above the entire team when we had a chance".
.
it's not one player. It's the future of this franchise. We need to know if JP is good enough or not.

[Mitchy moo]

Thank You Patrick.

Ok he broke this down real good, I just said we would win this division at 9-7. This looks like a very realistic scenario. Go Bills!

What happens in the playoffs??

[justasportsfan]

it's not one player. It's the future of this franchise. We need to know if JP is good enough or not. he's not the only player that is part of our future. Some of the players that want to play to win is part of our future. Did you forget that?

[OpIv37]

he's not the only player that is part of our future. Some of the players that want to play to win is part of our future. Did you forget that?

and do they want to win next year too? Cuz if so they should understand.

[Throne Logic]

You're asking for logic and reasoning. The people who still think we can make the playoffs have yet to show either- just a lot of talk about "fighting to the end" and "any given Sunday".

The sad part is that the playoffs are still very much in sight. The division winner gets a spot, even if they are 6-10 . . .

Personally, I don't really want to make the playoffs with a losing record. It's just too pathetic.

[justasportsfan]

and do they want to win next year too? Cuz if so they should understand.well it depends if people like you want to quit on them this year. They will want to go in next year knowing their coaches have faith in them ,cuz if they do...... ah nevermind, you wouldn't understand.

[mysticsoto]

It's giving up on the season no matter how you try to spin it when you are mathematically still in it and yank your best players so you can develop the youth. Do you agree then that the minute we sit KH we might as well sit Willis and bring Gates in to develop?

My only problem with this, and some others who are arguing your POV is that you assume that JP will equal to an automatic loss. It wasn't all JP's fault why we lost those 1st few games. Except for the 1st game, the defense played horrible!!! In the 1st game, the Oline gave JP time and he was able to find the open man. In the games that Holcomb has won, the Oline gave him time - something JP didn't get in his losses. And if we want to talk about experience, it didn't seem to help KH win in NE when he made that bone-headed play that would have been more believable had JP done it.

I'm not personally convinced that we are throwing a season away if we start JP. And now with the move in the OLine where MW is playing LG and Jason Peters RT, I would be even more for JP. JP has shown that when given time, he can make the throws. Right now, I just think KH is reaping the benefits that JP should have gotten.

That being said, if MM wants KH, I will support him. But I just think people will be here complaining next year that JP is not playing well and that we should start KH again. And round and round we'll go...

[justasportsfan]

My only problem with this, and some others who are arguing your POV is that you assume that JP will equal to an automatic loss. It wasn't all JP's fault why we lost those 1st few games. Except for the 1st game, the defense played horrible!!! In the 1st game, the Oline gave JP time and he was able to find the open man. In the games that Holcomb has won, the Oline gave him time - something JP didn't get in his losses. And if we want to talk about experience, it didn't seem to help KH win in NE when he made that bone-headed play that would have been more believable had JP done it.

I'm not personally convinced that we are throwing a season away if we start JP. And now with the move in the OLine where MW is playing LG and Jason Peters RT, I would be even more for JP. JP has shown that when given time, he can make the throws. Right now, I just think KH is reaping the benefits that JP should have gotten.

That being said, if MM wants KH, I will support him. But I just think people will be here complaining next year that JP is not playing well and that we should start KH again. And round and round we'll go...Nope, I am not assuming JP will be an automatic loss. I've stated that if we start JP , we play to win. If our coaches and vets think we had a better chance of winning w/ him , JP would be in there.

The players still have something to play for and have asked the coaches to start the players that gives them the best chance to win. I'd rather have players like that than the ones who give up when the odds are against us.

[Novacane]

and of course yours will always be the most negative opinion available and you cant deal with someone who sees the glass half full I will feel it will be 7-1 until they lose 2 games in the second half


-predicting7-1 is not seeing the glass as half full. That's seeing the glass overflowing.

[BillsFever21]

Why are all these posts only about Buffalo vs. New Engaland. Whether many want to admit it or not Miami has just as good as shot as we do. We're both 3-5.

But wait Miami doesn't have a prayer and we do? Isn't that contradicting your theories?

Why does a 3-5 Miami team who actually beat a couple good teams this year have no chance in hell but our 3-5 team who hasn't beat a top notch team in 2 seasons have a great chance?

Miami even has an easier path the rest of the way. They already played Denver, Carolina and KC. They played their tough half just like NE and they came out 3-5 the same as us with our easy part.

With the same record as us they get Oakland, Tennessee and Cleveland while we play Denver, Carolina and KC. They also get home games against us and the Jets while we play them on the road.

If you're factoring in the Bills as having a great shot at winning the division then you can't discredit the Dolphins as not having the same opportunity. If anything they have an easier schedule which gives them an easier path to finishing with a better record then we do.

I'd(and others) would like to hear how we have this great chance of winning the division but you guys don't factor Miami in on this equation along with it like they are road kill with a 1-7 record. Same record, same chance but an easier schedule then us.

Even the Jets(although not likely) could be factored in. They are only 1 game behind us. Technically the have a chance of finishing with a better record then us.

Miami is even playing better football then us right now. They slaughtered NO while we lost to them. They took Atlanta to the limits when they made us look like road kill.

Don't just compare us and New England. Don't be gullable and act like Miami isn't even in the race. Technically they have an easier schedule which gives them a better opportunity.

Some would call all of this optimism from them. Most of us would call it homerism instead.

[OpIv37]

Why are all these posts only about Buffalo vs. New Engaland. Whether many want to admit it or not Miami has just as good as shot as we do. We're both 3-5.

But wait Miami doesn't have a prayer and we do? Isn't that contradicting your theories?


one step ahead of ya- http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?t=84970

[BillsFever21]

one step ahead of ya- http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?t=84970

Sorry, bro. Didn't know you already brought this us. I see that not many of the homers had any comments on it though.

It's the cold hard truth but the same logic doesn't apply to them teams as it does for us.

According to them Miami doesn't have a prayer of winning the division but we have this great chance and we're in the thick of things. Why doesn't this apply for Miami then? How come their not factored in on all of this talk?

Is it maybe because they can't handle the truth and the same rules don't apply outside of Buffalo because of blinded homersim?

[BillsFever21]

one step ahead of ya- http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?t=84970

Sorry bro, didn't see that. I see nobody really wanted to touch on that subject though.

[BillsFever21]

I see nobody wanted to touch on that subject though, OP.

Sorry I never noticed you brought it up. Doesn't suprise me the homerism set in and nobody wanted to talk about Miami having a chance though.

[Mitchy moo]

Why are all these posts only about Buffalo vs. New Engaland. Whether many want to admit it or not Miami has just as good as shot as we do. We're both 3-5.

But wait Miami doesn't have a prayer and we do? Isn't that contradicting your theories?

Why does a 3-5 Miami team who actually beat a couple good teams this year have no chance in hell but our 3-5 team who hasn't beat a top notch team in 2 seasons have a great chance?

Miami even has an easier path the rest of the way. They already played Denver, Carolina and KC. They played their tough half just like NE and they came out 3-5 the same as us with our easy part.

With the same record as us they get Oakland, Tennessee and Cleveland while we play Denver, Carolina and KC. They also get home games against us and the Jets while we play them on the road.

If you're factoring in the Bills as having a great shot at winning the division then you can't discredit the Dolphins as not having the same opportunity. If anything they have an easier schedule which gives them an easier path to finishing with a better record then we do.

I'd(and others) would like to hear how we have this great chance of winning the division but you guys don't factor Miami in on this equation along with it like they are road kill with a 1-7 record. Same record, same chance but an easier schedule then us.

Even the Jets(although not likely) could be factored in. They are only 1 game behind us. Technically the have a chance of finishing with a better record then us.

Miami is even playing better football then us right now. They slaughtered NO while we lost to them. They took Atlanta to the limits when they made us look like road kill.

Don't just compare us and New England. Don't be gullable and act like Miami isn't even in the race. Technically they have an easier schedule which gives them a better opportunity.

Some would call all of this optimism from them. Most of us would call it homerism instead.

I hope Miami beats NE this weekend & that's about it.

[HHURRICANE]

Why are all these posts only about Buffalo vs. New Engaland. Whether many want to admit it or not Miami has just as good as shot as we do. We're both 3-5.

Right on brother. Good point.

[BillsFever21]

-predicting7-1 is not seeing the glass as half full. That's seeing the glass overflowing.

The floor is covered in Kool Aid from it dripping off the table.

[HHURRICANE]

This thread has a life of it's own. Will all of this die if the Pats beat the Dolphins and we lose to KC? This would put the Bills and Dolphins at 3-6 and the Pats at 5-4. At this point would Pat, BAM and Skooby be okay with Losman as the starter? Please reply.

[Mitchy moo]

This thread has a life of it's own. Will all of this die if the Pats beat the Dolphins and we lose to KC? This would put the Bills and Dolphins at 3-6 and the Pats at 5-4. At this point would Pat, BAM and Skooby be okay with Losman as the starter? Please reply.

I would say that there are 7 games left and we are 2 games out. Nothing is assured or a given in the NFL these days. If you think back 5 years ago to the "winning teams" then you'll realize things change very quickly. Teams can go very hot, very cold, very fast. 3-7 Bills / 6-4 Pats, then losman need to play at that point, not until then.

[mysticsoto]

Nope, I am not assuming JP will be an automatic loss. I've stated that if we start JP , we play to win. If our coaches and vets think we had a better chance of winning w/ him , JP would be in there.

The players still have something to play for and have asked the coaches to start the players that gives them the best chance to win. I'd rather have players like that than the ones who give up when the odds are against us.

If the coaches are so keen in determining the best player, why wasn't KH in from the start of the season instead of JP? And since when do Vets run a team? The Vets need to step up no matter who plays. I didn't see any vet quitters on the Giants team or in Cincinnati last year...

If you are going to say that it is JP's fault we lost those games that he played in, then I would have to say that KH lost NE's game at the end with his boneheaded play - while the rest of the team played well. People are acting like KH is so good, and he's not. He's mediocre, and he can't throw a bomb - so defenses already know they can stack the line and just play the short passes.

All I know is, next year, I better not hear excuses about why JP is not good enough. There's a reason - we haven't let him play!!!

[HHURRICANE]

[quote=mysticsoto]
All I know is, next year, I better not hear excuses about why JP is not good enough. There's a reason - we haven't let him play!!![/quote

You hit it right on the head. Everybody is so focused on winning at any cost today that nobody wants to face the fact that we will definately have a high cost associated with this attitude next year.

[HHURRICANE]

I would say that there are 7 games left and we are 2 games out. Nothing is assured or a given in the NFL these days. If you think back 5 years ago to the "winning teams" then you'll realize things change very quickly. Teams can go very hot, very cold, very fast. 3-7 Bills / 6-4 Pats, then losman need to play at that point, not until then.

This is exactly what I thought you would say. Even at 3-6 we still can't start Losman? Holcomb would be 2-3 as a starter. It just doesn't end. Why not give Losman that slim chance at 3-6 to at least keep it interesting for the playoffs. Why does the season have to be completely dead. It's going to be hard for him to play with a line that already knows we are out of it.

[mysticsoto]

Wow! Somebody negged me b'cse what I think is best for the team is not what they think is best?! I guess opinions are not allowed here. I am still a Bills fan all the way through...but I'm called a traitor b'cse I want JP to develop into our future star QB - so we can quit having mediocre-to-bad QB's like we've had for over a decade now! :cynic:

[BSXIII]

I agree that Miami has just as good a shot of winning the division as the Bills, but that can't change this team's approach. Developing for the future sounds all warm and cuddly, but that's just not how the NFL works. Every player on this team is expected to work his ass off each and every day, whether at practice or on in a big game. They are expected to play through injuries, even when they may be risking more severe injuries that can cut their careers short, and/or make them miss out on their big pay day.

Here is what I want for the future. Players who go into each and every week with the attitude that they can win. It is the coaching staffs job to get them to believe that. Saying winning the division is impossible before it is sends the wrong message to the team. Until it's over, the best players need to play, period.

[justasportsfan]

If the coaches are so keen in determining the best player, why wasn't KH in from the start of the season instead of JP? And since when do Vets run a team? The Vets need to step up no matter who plays. I didn't see any vet quitters on the Giants team or in Cincinnati last year...

If you are going to say that it is JP's fault we lost those games that he played in, then I would have to say that KH lost NE's game at the end with his boneheaded play - while the rest of the team played well. People are acting like KH is so good, and he's not. He's mediocre, and he can't throw a bomb - so defenses already know they can stack the line and just play the short passes.

All I know is, next year, I better not hear excuses about why JP is not good enough. There's a reason - we haven't let him play!!!your guess is as good as mine. You'll never now how one performs until you put him in a real game. We've seen the difference between both qb's.

People are not acting like KH is soo good , that's your interpretation. We're saying he's better than Jp at this point and gives us the better chance to win.

No one is blaming JP for those 2 losses either. But just like Drew he was part of the problem.

[Mitchy moo]

your guess is as good as mine. You'll never now how one performs until you put him in a real game. We've seen the difference between both qb's.

People are not acting like KH is soo good , that's your interpretation. We're saying he's better than Jp at this point and gives us the better chance to win.

No one is blaming JP for those 2 losses either. But just like Drew he was part of the problem.

We really should have talked with Drew and had them compete for the Job with Kelly and made one of the 3 the starters. It would have been more fair than handing the keys to the kid and saying drive. No driver's license, no driving experience, just drive. It really wasn't fair to any of them.

Fault: TD / MM

[mysticsoto]

your guess is as good as mine. You'll never now how one performs until you put him in a real game. We've seen the difference between both qb's.

People are not acting like KH is soo good , that's your interpretation. We're saying he's better than Jp at this point and gives us the better chance to win.

No one is blaming JP for those 2 losses either. But just like Drew he was part of the problem.

KH has experience. JP does not. So at what point will JP ever get a chance then if we aren't going to let him. KH was part of the problem as to why we lost the NE game which could of had us leading the division. Perhaps if JP had been in, he could have ran it for a 1st down through the middle that was wide open. It works both ways - except that I can't see anything that KH is doing that is so much better than JP to warrant him in there. If we lose to KC, it should almost be automatic for us to do the switch. This bull**** about us not being mathematically out is just delaying JP's growth and possibly hurting our future... The longer we wait, the longer we condemn ourselves to a mediocre season at best next year.

[Luisito23]

As long as it is mathematically possible, you need to keep playing.

Pride I'm very proud of this post......

I'm still haunted by our last L.....
but that's why there's always tomorrow......

Let's F:rage: up KC on Sun,,,,,,,,





GO BILLS!!!!!!!!!!!!

[BAM]

Pride is the man!

:bf1: