Just to be fair, Lets criticize Holcomb a bit

[X-Era]

Against the Bengals, he went 24/31 for 308 1 TD and 1 int.

Now, there is NO denying he made plays all day. But when it counted, iin the red zone he THREW for NO td's and 1 int.

In fact, in yet another game (NE) against a very good team, he moved the ball many times into the red zone and ended the half up only 6 points. in 3 trips inthe 1st half we get 2 FG's and an int? We were only up 3 points on NE at the half. If you want to be a playoff or SB caliper team, you arent gonna win with FG's, and you wont win without being able to throw TD's. In fact, at the end of the game Cin had a chance to win, it was McGee who killed it. If Cin had got the TD and won, you easily could have pointed to the 1st half with lots of "management" and little points.

I think its just proved that he is a good game manager but NOT a playoff or SB caliper QB. He doesnt have it in him and never will.

Thanks, but no thanks. JP threw 3 TD's in the 1st half against the Fins and buried them, unfortunately, the team let him down and blew that big of a lead.

Whether they only play for Holcomb or not, JP is the better option. and has the upside to lead us to the playoffs and beyond. Holcomb has NO upside and the past 10 years of QB's who merely manage a game proves that it wont do jack squat for THIS team.

Let them compete it out in TC, if JP wins, the HC should label him the starter and then make sure the team gets and STAYS behind him. And we would have both a player who ha sthe talent and a team that plays when he is on the field.

[Ebenezer]

he's got a silly southern accent....

it comes down to who is the best QB...I want to win tomorrow...not 3 years from now.

btw, in your sig?? Moulds is still our best receiver...you can remove the walker.

[OpIv37]

btw, in your sig?? Moulds is still our best receiver...you can remove the walker.

and replace it with "$$$$$"

[lynobx]

I am simply amazed that anyone could look at Holcomb's 10 mediocre years in the league and think that we will ever be anything better than an 8-8 team with him at the controls, while writing off Losman after all of 8 starts.

If JP is not the answer, we need to go in another direction from Holcomb, who is clearly a nice backup, but nothing else.

[FirstDownBills]

I am simply amazed that anyone could look at Holcomb's 10 mediocre years in the league and think that we will ever be anything better than an 8-8 team with him at the controls, while writing off Losman after all of 8 starts.

If JP is not the answer, we need to go in another direction from Holcomb, who is clearly a nice backup, but nothing else.


:goodpost: Keep Holcomb as a backup. Some people on here think he's secretly the next Brady and just needs a full season of play to show it.

[eee1776]

I heard on a recent interview with the coach he said that the 2006 starting QB for the bills was not on the team yet. anyone else here him say that?

[OpIv37]

I am simply amazed that anyone could look at Holcomb's 10 mediocre years in the league and think that we will ever be anything better than an 8-8 team with him at the controls, while writing off Losman after all of 8 starts.

If JP is not the answer, we need to go in another direction from Holcomb, who is clearly a nice backup, but nothing else.

good post- I said pretty much the exact same thing in another thread a couple days ago. JP should be playing so at least we know if he's our guy or not.

[Bmax]

Here is a guy that couldn't win the starting job and keep it in cleveland !!!!!!

any questions ?

Go JP

GO BILLS

Bmax

[realdealryan]

Here is a guy that couldn't win the starting job and keep it in cleveland !!!!!!

any questions ?

Go JP

GO BILLS

Bmax

Holcomb threw for five touchdowns and a career-high 413 yards in Cleveland's 58-48 loss at Paul Brown Stadium last season.

He was a key last year when Cleveland shat this offensive performance out of their collective a$$ and STILL DIDN'T KEEP THE JOB! It's not time to erect a statue in his honor yet.

[dolphinssuck]

Against the Bengals, he went 24/31 for 308 1 TD and 1 int.

Now, there is NO denying he made plays all day. But when it counted, iin the red zone he THREW for NO td's and 1 int.

In fact, in yet another game (NE) against a very good team, he moved the ball many times into the red zone and ended the half up only 6 points. in 3 trips inthe 1st half we get 2 FG's and an int? We were only up 3 points on NE at the half. If you want to be a playoff or SB caliper team, you arent gonna win with FG's, and you wont win without being able to throw TD's. In fact, at the end of the game Cin had a chance to win, it was McGee who killed it. If Cin had got the TD and won, you easily could have pointed to the 1st half with lots of "management" and little points.

I think its just proved that he is a good game manager but NOT a playoff or SB caliper QB. He doesnt have it in him and never will.

Thanks, but no thanks. JP threw 3 TD's in the 1st half against the Fins and buried them, unfortunately, the team let him down and blew that big of a lead.

Whether they only play for Holcomb or not, JP is the better option. and has the upside to lead us to the playoffs and beyond. Holcomb has NO upside and the past 10 years of QB's who merely manage a game proves that it wont do jack squat for THIS team.

Let them compete it out in TC, if JP wins, the HC should label him the starter and then make sure the team gets and STAYS behind him. And we would have both a player who ha sthe talent and a team that plays when he is on the field.:goodpost:

[Lexwhat]

Against the Bengals, he went 24/31 for 308 1 TD and 1 int.

Now, there is NO denying he made plays all day. But when it counted, iin the red zone he THREW for NO td's and 1 int.

I don't know what game you were watching. Did you not notice the 3 Yard Touchdown Pass to Lee Evans?

KH also ran for a TD.

[X-Era]

I don't know what game you were watching. Did you not notice the 3 Yard Touchdown Pass to Lee Evans?

KH also ran for a TD.

I think I would have rephrased this, "I dont know which PLAY you werent watching". This is true, my mistake, he did throw the Td to Evans, I stand corrected. But as far as the rest of the GAME, and especially the 1st half, the criticism STANDS! 6 points and a INT out of 3 trips to the red zone wont get you to the playoffs.

[Dozerdog]

I think I would have rephrased this, "I dont know which PLAY you werent watching". This is true, my mistake, he did throw the Td to Evans, I stand corrected. But as far as the rest of the GAME, and especially the 1st half, the criticism STANDS! 6 points and a INT out of 3 trips to the red zone wont get you to the playoffs.

I don't know what season you are watching, but Holcombe has earned his playing time.


He's got 3 of the Bills victories and was knocked out with the lead in a 4th. He also played well for the most part vs New England in New England.

JP has lost ugly vs some pathetic teams. Now I do beleive JP is the future of the team, but geesh, he has to EARN the starting job.

Win it fair and square, JP

[X-Era]

I don't know what season you are watching, but Holcombe has earned his playing time.


He's got 3 of the Bills victories and was knocked out with the lead in a 4th. He also played well for the most part vs New England in New England.

JP has lost ugly vs some pathetic teams. Now I do beleive JP is the future of the team, but geesh, he has to EARN the starting job.

Win it fair and square, JP
Just goes to prove there are ton of people who will never get the "developing" your young stud QB concept. Its only worked for about a dozen teams now, but why not go with your career backup?

Why play your guy who has upside and is just as good as your other option when your other option is a 10 year backup that will never get any better. Makes sense to me, if I was in bizarro world.

[STAMPY]

How the **** do you know he is a stud QB? Get off his nuts already guy

[DaBills]

Thing is, we weren't sold on KH as our #1, we were told it was JP. If you want to go the route of sitting JP and letting him learn, fine. If that's the case going into this year, then it fell on TD and MM to have a great BU in place.

But an inconsistent vet back-up is the guy to teach JP? How did KH ever jump to the front of that line? He was our Plan B? He's not even freaking Plan L.

[Mahdi]

I have no problem with having JP earn his job as the starter. However, both Palmer and Manning were given their starting jobs, which probably took some of the pressure of them. If you know that theres someone about to take your job with every mistake you make it only stunts develoment. However, if you know that you are going to be given time to improve and get over the hump you play more relaxed. JP hasn't been given that. Once MM saw that JP was struggling which was expected, he pulled him for Holcomb.

[Bmax]

You guys can support huckleberry holcolmb if you want or joe ferguson -lite... and by that i mean very lite.......heck the guy is not even on the same page as tommy maddox. If we want to talk starter let's get a guy with some upside ... Trade for David garrad or Patrick ramsey or heck why don't we bring in jon kittna...Ok i'm only kidding ...But the answer is not a easy one .


Jp deserves to start sunday against the hapless jets. We already know what holcolmb can do against them why not see what Jp got to evaluate him some more. Holcolmb needs no evaluation..

Go Bills

Bmax

[Bmax]

To be honest i wouldn't mine Matt shaub he has looked good in games played..

Bmax

[Mudflap1]

I don't know what season you are watching, but Holcombe has earned his playing time.


He's got 3 of the Bills victories and was knocked out with the lead in a 4th. He also played well for the most part vs New England in New England.

JP has lost ugly vs some pathetic teams. Now I do beleive JP is the future of the team, but geesh, he has to EARN the starting job.

Win it fair and square, JP

Thank you for some posting that wasn't fit for a braindead mongrel...

STOP COMPARING LOSMAN TO ELI MANNING, PEYTON MANNING, AND CARSON PALMER!

They were ALL #1 overall draft picks! They were 1) seen as near-locks to be stud quarterbacks, and 2) drafted by very bad football teams. They started quickly because their teams were all in rebuilding mode (hence them all owning #1 overall draft picks).

J.P. Losman was not a #1 overall draft pick. He was a late first round draft pick, and the 4th QB taken overall. He's still a darn good prospect, but he was 1) drafted behind 3 other guys who were all thought to be more of near-locks than him (and his big question mark was his cocky attitude -- something that is haunting him today in the locker room), and 2) he was taken by a team that was not (supposedly) in rebuilding mode.

If you want to compare him to someone, compare him to the likes of Cade McNown, Aaron Rodgers, and Kyle Boller. Those were all quarterbacks that were taken later in the first round, after their more celebrated (and believed to be "near-lock") contemporaries.

So stop the comparisons to Palmer, Manning, and Manning.

As for Holcomb being a career-crappy QB, yes, he was on a bad team in Indy. However, the regime changed. Jim Mora came in, Holcomb was put on the bench, Peyton Manning was drafted, Bill Polian was running the show, and voila! Why would Holcomb start in that situation? They committed to Peyton. And are you honestly going to argue that Cleveland was a good team when Holcomb was there? They just had loads of offensive talent? By the way, they DID make the playoffs once since 2001 (when Tom Donahoe came to town), and he threw for over 400 yards. Those are two things that WE have not done as a franchise in that timeframe.

Nevertheless, I'm not going to sit here and defend Kelly Holcomb by saying he's the next Johnny Unitas. He's not. However, there have been plenty of quarterbacks that were veteran journeymen, but have had successful playoff and Super Bowl-type seasons. Remember Chris Chandler in '98 with Atlanta? How about Tommy Maddox with our own Mike Mularkey a few years ago? Trent Dilfer with the Ravens? Brad Johnson with the Buccaneers? Heck, he wasn't even a starting quarterback in COLLEGE! How about Rich Gannon that same year? Jake Delhomme? All of these guys are late bloomers. Just because a quarterback sat behind a future Hall-of-Famer for several years, then played on a bad team doesn't mean he's completely worthless.

Holcomb has played well this year. Dozer's right. He has earned his playing time. The final reason you can't compare J.P. Losman to Palmer, Manning, etc. is that those guys were starting on teams with no expectations. Losman was given the job unconditionally this offseason under the guise that he was ready enough to command an offense on a playoff-ready football team. No, that's not Losman's fault. But on the other hand, he didn't earn a damn thing. If he is a "near-lock" franchise QB on a team that is in rebuilding mode, it doesn't hurt to start him unconditionally. However, when you are on a "playoff caliber" team, you have to earn the job. That was the coaching staff's mistake. It should have been an open competition. And it should be an open competition next year.

Holcomb has a 92+ passer rating. I wonder what that would be like if he had an offensive line and took all of the starting snaps with the first team offense in mini-camp, training camp, preseason, and the regular season? We MAY have another late-bloomer ready to blossom right before our eyes.

The only fair thing to do next season is to rebuild the offensive line (and the defensive line) and have an open competition all year. May the best quarterback win. Make J.P. work for it instead of coddling him like some prized puppy. I'm all for Losman winning the job. I think he has the confidence, the arm, the mobility, and has been reading defenses better overall his last few games. I'd love to see the guy turn the corner and be the leader this team needs.

Don't hand it to him unconditionally though. This team, with some solid acquisitions, is not far off.

Jon

[Ickybaluky]

I find it ironic that the guy has the first 300 yard passing game by a Bills QB in something like a million games and you are criticizing him.

He isn't the QB of the future but he did play real well in leading the team to a win against a good team on the road. I think the last Bills QB to do that was Flutie. Give the guy credit.

[Dozerdog]

Crazy, aint it?

[Mudflap1]

Thank you sane ones.

Jon

[X-Era]

I find it ironic that the guy has the first 300 yard passing game by a Bills QB in something like a million games and you are criticizing him.

He isn't the QB of the future but he did play real well in leading the team to a win against a good team on the road. I think the last Bills QB to do that was Flutie. Give the guy credit.

Actually, this ENTIRE post is only meant to be fair when many didnt give props for the 3 TD 1st half that JP threw in the Miami game.

The only other point is that the guy isnt OVERALL good enough to get us where we want to be, the SB. That said, JP isnt right now either, but he could be, and thats the difference.

So, like its been said a million times, all things be equal, you go with Losman.

[Crisis]

We get it, you have a hard-on for Losman.

It gets old.

[kinigirly]

i don't even understand the purpose of this thread. holcomb was great, i was impressed. i see 2 things when i look at kelly. on one hand i see someone who is very good, but inconsistent...he's good for maybe 3 games straight. on the other hand he is a good captain. the team feels comfortable around him and trusts him. i think he has talent, but i'm sorry too little too late in his career.

[X-Era]

Thank you for some posting that wasn't fit for a braindead mongrel...

STOP COMPARING LOSMAN TO ELI MANNING, PEYTON MANNING, AND CARSON PALMER!

They were ALL #1 overall draft picks! They were 1) seen as near-locks to be stud quarterbacks, and 2) drafted by very bad football teams. They started quickly because their teams were all in rebuilding mode (hence them all owning #1 overall draft picks).

J.P. Losman was not a #1 overall draft pick. He was a late first round draft pick, and the 4th QB taken overall. He's still a darn good prospect, but he was 1) drafted behind 3 other guys who were all thought to be more of near-locks than him (and his big question mark was his cocky attitude -- something that is haunting him today in the locker room), and 2) he was taken by a team that was not (supposedly) in rebuilding mode.

If you want to compare him to someone, compare him to the likes of Cade McNown, Aaron Rodgers, and Kyle Boller. Those were all quarterbacks that were taken later in the first round, after their more celebrated (and believed to be "near-lock") contemporaries.

So stop the comparisons to Palmer, Manning, and Manning.

As for Holcomb being a career-crappy QB, yes, he was on a bad team in Indy. However, the regime changed. Jim Mora came in, Holcomb was put on the bench, Peyton Manning was drafted, Bill Polian was running the show, and voila! Why would Holcomb start in that situation? They committed to Peyton. And are you honestly going to argue that Cleveland was a good team when Holcomb was there? They just had loads of offensive talent? By the way, they DID make the playoffs once since 2001 (when Tom Donahoe came to town), and he threw for over 400 yards. Those are two things that WE have not done as a franchise in that timeframe.

Nevertheless, I'm not going to sit here and defend Kelly Holcomb by saying he's the next Johnny Unitas. He's not. However, there have been plenty of quarterbacks that were veteran journeymen, but have had successful playoff and Super Bowl-type seasons. Remember Chris Chandler in '98 with Atlanta? How about Tommy Maddox with our own Mike Mularkey a few years ago? Trent Dilfer with the Ravens? Brad Johnson with the Buccaneers? Heck, he wasn't even a starting quarterback in COLLEGE! How about Rich Gannon that same year? Jake Delhomme? All of these guys are late bloomers. Just because a quarterback sat behind a future Hall-of-Famer for several years, then played on a bad team doesn't mean he's completely worthless.

Holcomb has played well this year. Dozer's right. He has earned his playing time. The final reason you can't compare J.P. Losman to Palmer, Manning, etc. is that those guys were starting on teams with no expectations. Losman was given the job unconditionally this offseason under the guise that he was ready enough to command an offense on a playoff-ready football team. No, that's not Losman's fault. But on the other hand, he didn't earn a damn thing. If he is a "near-lock" franchise QB on a team that is in rebuilding mode, it doesn't hurt to start him unconditionally. However, when you are on a "playoff caliber" team, you have to earn the job. That was the coaching staff's mistake. It should have been an open competition. And it should be an open competition next year.

Holcomb has a 92+ passer rating. I wonder what that would be like if he had an offensive line and took all of the starting snaps with the first team offense in mini-camp, training camp, preseason, and the regular season? We MAY have another late-bloomer ready to blossom right before our eyes.

The only fair thing to do next season is to rebuild the offensive line (and the defensive line) and have an open competition all year. May the best quarterback win. Make J.P. work for it instead of coddling him like some prized puppy. I'm all for Losman winning the job. I think he has the confidence, the arm, the mobility, and has been reading defenses better overall his last few games. I'd love to see the guy turn the corner and be the leader this team needs.

Don't hand it to him unconditionally though. This team, with some solid acquisitions, is not far off.

Jon

No problem how about Chad Pennington, Drew Brees, Leftwich, and Rothlisberger.

[ScottLawrence]

Thank you for some posting that wasn't fit for a braindead mongrel...

STOP COMPARING LOSMAN TO ELI MANNING, PEYTON MANNING, AND CARSON PALMER!

They were ALL #1 overall draft picks! They were 1) seen as near-locks to be stud quarterbacks, and 2) drafted by very bad football teams. They started quickly because their teams were all in rebuilding mode (hence them all owning #1 overall draft picks).

J.P. Losman was not a #1 overall draft pick. He was a late first round draft pick, and the 4th QB taken overall. He's still a darn good prospect, but he was 1) drafted behind 3 other guys who were all thought to be more of near-locks than him (and his big question mark was his cocky attitude -- something that is haunting him today in the locker room), and 2) he was taken by a team that was not (supposedly) in rebuilding mode.

If you want to compare him to someone, compare him to the likes of Cade McNown, Aaron Rodgers, and Kyle Boller. Those were all quarterbacks that were taken later in the first round, after their more celebrated (and believed to be "near-lock") contemporaries.

So stop the comparisons to Palmer, Manning, and Manning.

As for Holcomb being a career-crappy QB, yes, he was on a bad team in Indy. However, the regime changed. Jim Mora came in, Holcomb was put on the bench, Peyton Manning was drafted, Bill Polian was running the show, and voila! Why would Holcomb start in that situation? They committed to Peyton. And are you honestly going to argue that Cleveland was a good team when Holcomb was there? They just had loads of offensive talent? By the way, they DID make the playoffs once since 2001 (when Tom Donahoe came to town), and he threw for over 400 yards. Those are two things that WE have not done as a franchise in that timeframe.

Nevertheless, I'm not going to sit here and defend Kelly Holcomb by saying he's the next Johnny Unitas. He's not. However, there have been plenty of quarterbacks that were veteran journeymen, but have had successful playoff and Super Bowl-type seasons. Remember Chris Chandler in '98 with Atlanta? How about Tommy Maddox with our own Mike Mularkey a few years ago? Trent Dilfer with the Ravens? Brad Johnson with the Buccaneers? Heck, he wasn't even a starting quarterback in COLLEGE! How about Rich Gannon that same year? Jake Delhomme? All of these guys are late bloomers. Just because a quarterback sat behind a future Hall-of-Famer for several years, then played on a bad team doesn't mean he's completely worthless.

Holcomb has played well this year. Dozer's right. He has earned his playing time. The final reason you can't compare J.P. Losman to Palmer, Manning, etc. is that those guys were starting on teams with no expectations. Losman was given the job unconditionally this offseason under the guise that he was ready enough to command an offense on a playoff-ready football team. No, that's not Losman's fault. But on the other hand, he didn't earn a damn thing. If he is a "near-lock" franchise QB on a team that is in rebuilding mode, it doesn't hurt to start him unconditionally. However, when you are on a "playoff caliber" team, you have to earn the job. That was the coaching staff's mistake. It should have been an open competition. And it should be an open competition next year.

Holcomb has a 92+ passer rating. I wonder what that would be like if he had an offensive line and took all of the starting snaps with the first team offense in mini-camp, training camp, preseason, and the regular season? We MAY have another late-bloomer ready to blossom right before our eyes.

The only fair thing to do next season is to rebuild the offensive line (and the defensive line) and have an open competition all year. May the best quarterback win. Make J.P. work for it instead of coddling him like some prized puppy. I'm all for Losman winning the job. I think he has the confidence, the arm, the mobility, and has been reading defenses better overall his last few games. I'd love to see the guy turn the corner and be the leader this team needs.

Don't hand it to him unconditionally though. This team, with some solid acquisitions, is not far off.

Jon


Exactly.

Couldn't have said it better.

[ScottLawrence]

Actually, this ENTIRE post is only meant to be fair when many didnt give props for the 3 TD 1st half that JP threw in the Miami game.

The only other point is that the guy isnt OVERALL good enough to get us where we want to be, the SB. That said, JP isnt right now either, but he could be, and thats the difference.

So, like its been said a million times, all things be equal, you go with Losman.


He looked like a man possesed that first half.


But where was he in the 2nd half?

The guy isn't good enough to get us to the superbowl? No, the team isn't good enough to get to the superbowl.

[Mudflap1]

Actually, this ENTIRE post is only meant to be fair when many didnt give props for the 3 TD 1st half that JP threw in the Miami game.

You rip Holcomb for not being able to get touchdowns in the red zone and you bring up the Miami game with Losman as the lynch pin in your argument? Helloooooooo? Remember the key intereception in the end zone in the 3rd quarter????? True, the kid played well in the first quarter in the Miami game, but he's got a ways to go before he's anywhere close to being the "smart" quarterback Holcomb is.


No problem how about Chad Pennington, Drew Brees, Leftwich, and Rothlisberger.

How about Marc Wilson, Joey Harrington, Rick Mirer, Patrick Ramsey, Tim Couch, Quincy Carter, Todd Marinovich, and Jim Druckenmiller? Don't play that game with me. For every 1st round QB stud that you can name to compare to J.P. Losman, I can name at least one, if not more, busts.

The point is, if I see anymore posts 1) listing excuses for why J.P. Losman is going to be the next Jim Kelly but just hasn't shown it yet, or 2) comparisons to him with the highest pedigree of quarterbacks in recent memory (Palmer, Manning, Manning, etc.), I'm gonna puke.

The fact of the matter is, we were too cheap to trade up for Roethlisberger or Rivers. We went for the guy with a strong arm, but who is a wild card because he's got a cocky attitude problem. Maybe it hasn't fully shown yet, but that's always been the shirt on this guy. We've been hearing about stray reports that the veterans prefer the veteran QB and that he hasn't yet earned the trust and respect of his peers yet. Maybe that's true, maybe not. One thing is true though, he was handed the job unconditionally by his general manager and coaching staff this season, and the fans and veterans on the team were fed the line that this was a playoff ready team. Well, we've fallen flat. Is Losman to blame? Certainly not entirely, no. The defense hasn't lived up to expectations at all, the offensive and defensive lines have been terrible, and we've had our share of injuries. However, Losman has not played well. That's okay, he's young, most young quarterbacks struggle early. However, he's a pro making millions of dollars. He needs to be a big boy and earn his right to start. Right now, he hasn't. Kelly Holcomb has. He has come in and won some games and posted good stats. Is Holcomb the answer? I don't know, but he's the best quarterback on this team right now. As far as I'm concerned, Losman can sit on his ass and wait until he's earned the right to play, the old-fashioned way. No favoritism. Tough love.

Jon

[justasportsfan]

I don't know what game you were watching. Did you not notice the 3 Yard Touchdown Pass to Lee Evans?

KH also ran for a TD.he was watching the game w/ JP rose colored glasses.

[X-Era]

You rip Holcomb for not being able to get touchdowns in the red zone and you bring up the Miami game with Losman as the lynch pin in your argument? Helloooooooo? Remember the key intereception in the end zone in the 3rd quarter?????

Jon

Ill take 3 td's and 1 int anyday of the week over your supposed "best game" of 1 td throwing, 1 td rushing, and 1 int.

The TEAM had a good game, but if you think you can get into the playoffs with 1 throwing td and 1 int per game, your nuts. Right now niether is good enough, but one has the chance to be.

yards doesnt win games, points do, and of course defense which really has nothing to do with EITHER QB but in fact is the BIGGEST reason we suck. I dont bring it up, because when JP was at the helm, losing was all his fault, well, we might as well be fair and blame Holcomb as well that way.

[justasportsfan]

"best game" of 1 td throwing, 1 td rushing, and 1 int.

.you forgot to add a W to that statistic against a very good team on the road.. With that W I'll take it over 10 tds at home to go with a loss anyday.

[ScottLawrence]

Ill take 3 td's and 1 int anyday of the week over your supposed "best game" of 1 td throwing, 1 td rushing, and 1 int.

The TEAM had a good game, but if you think you can get into the playoffs with 1 throwing td and 1 int per game, your nuts. Right now niether is good enough, but one has the chance to be.

yards doesnt win games, points do, and of course defense which really has nothing to do with EITHER QB but in fact is the BIGGEST reason we suck. I dont bring it up, because when JP was at the helm, losing was all his fault, well, we might as well be fair and blame Holcomb as well that way.

Where the hell you been?

When we were losing with JP at helm, it was everyone but JP's fault.


Why do you think everyone wanted to fire everyone except JP?

[Mudflap1]

Ill take 3 td's and 1 int anyday of the week over your supposed "best game" of 1 td throwing, 1 td rushing, and 1 int.

The TEAM had a good game, but if you think you can get into the playoffs with 1 throwing td and 1 int per game, your nuts. Right now niether is good enough, but one has the chance to be.

yards doesnt win games, points do, and of course defense which really has nothing to do with EITHER QB but in fact is the BIGGEST reason we suck. I dont bring it up, because when JP was at the helm, losing was all his fault, well, we might as well be fair and blame Holcomb as well that way.

Which guy played better when he started against New England? Which guy beat Miami when he started? No, it's not all Holcomb, but the whole team plays better when he plays, along with him playing better than Losman. I can't believe you are actually arguing that the team plays worse with Losman, but Losman is a better quarterback. Football is a team game, and along with Holcomb playing a smarter game than Losman, his teammates respect him more and play better around him than they do with Losman. That's leadership and respect, something Losman hasn't earned. When he does, along with reading defenses better and playing a smarter game, he deserves the chance to start again.

It's very black and white. This is football, not pie-in-the-sky "maybe he'll be better than Eli and Carson because his QB rating is 5 points higher in his 9th start, and he's won one more game." Losman 1) can't read a defense as well as Holcomb yet, 2) needs to have more poise in the pocket, and 3) needs to earn the respect of his teammates. Those are three very tangible things he needs to accomplish. When he does that, he has fully earned the opportunity to start again. Starting for this team should not be a gift, it should be something earned through hard work, preparation, and respect. He has shown he has not done that yet, as the teammates respect Holcomb more, and their performance shows it.

Jon

[justasportsfan]

Which guy played better when he started against New England? Which guy beat Miami when he started? No, it's not all Holcomb, but the whole team plays better when he plays, along with him playing better than Losman. I can't believe you are actually arguing that the team plays worse with Losman, but Losman is a better quarterback. Football is a team game, and along with Holcomb playing a smarter game than Losman, his teammates respect him more and play better around him than they do with Losman. That's leadership and respect, something Losman hasn't earned. When he does, along with reading defenses better and playing a smarter game, he deserves teh chance to start again.

JonHe's a player fan that cares more about a player instead of the team.

[X-Era]

You rip Holcomb for not being able to get touchdowns in the red zone and you bring up the Miami game with Losman as the lynch pin in your argument? Helloooooooo? Remember the key intereception in the end zone in the 3rd quarter????? True, the kid played well in the first quarter in the Miami game, but he's got a ways to go before he's anywhere close to being the "smart" quarterback Holcomb is.



How about Marc Wilson, Joey Harrington, Rick Mirer, Patrick Ramsey, Tim Couch, Quincy Carter, Todd Marinovich, and Jim Druckenmiller? Don't play that game with me. For every 1st round QB stud that you can name to compare to J.P. Losman, I can name at least one, if not more, busts.

The point is, if I see anymore posts 1) listing excuses for why J.P. Losman is going to be the next Jim Kelly but just hasn't shown it yet, or 2) comparisons to him with the highest pedigree of quarterbacks in recent memory (Palmer, Manning, Manning, etc.), I'm gonna puke.

The fact of the matter is, we were too cheap to trade up for Roethlisberger or Rivers. We went for the guy with a strong arm, but who is a wild card because he's got a cocky attitude problem. Maybe it hasn't fully shown yet, but that's always been the shirt on this guy. We've been hearing about stray reports that the veterans prefer the veteran QB and that he hasn't yet earned the trust and respect of his peers yet. Maybe that's true, maybe not. One thing is true though, he was handed the job unconditionally by his general manager and coaching staff this season, and the fans and veterans on the team were fed the line that this was a playoff ready team. Well, we've fallen flat. Is Losman to blame? Certainly not entirely, no. The defense hasn't lived up to expectations at all, the offensive and defensive lines have been terrible, and we've had our share of injuries. However, Losman has not played well. That's okay, he's young, most young quarterbacks struggle early. However, he's a pro making millions of dollars. He needs to be a big boy and earn his right to start. Right now, he hasn't. Kelly Holcomb has. He has come in and won some games and posted good stats. Is Holcomb the answer? I don't know, but he's the best quarterback on this team right now. As far as I'm concerned, Losman can sit on his ass and wait until he's earned the right to play, the old-fashioned way. No favoritism. Tough love.

Jon

Well, you may be right about the best way to develop your young QB, JP did respond to being benched or so it appeared. People bring up Manning not because we think JP is the next Manning, it isnt fair to compare them at this point, just like its not fair to call him Leaf. They b ring up Manning and the glut of other young QB's as a proven example that a young QB has to play to develop. If Mularkey led the Colts with Manning at the helm, he probably would have benched him during his 1st 3 and 13 season. But Marchibroda didnt and Peyton led the team to 13 and 3 the next year. Right about now, would you rather have a 3 and 13 record, with Losman not being becnhed all season, if he leads the team to 13 and 3 next year? I dont think he will, but you get the point. Sitting him on the bench does NOTHING at this point. Which bring me to the next arguements here:

1) If JP isnt THE guy, you might as well trade him or cut him right now. What point does it serve on our 5 and 10 team to keep a QB at 5+ mill per on the bench? Did we learning NOTHING from the Fultie/RJ mess? If the team wont play for him, the HC doesnt trust him and/or isnt willing to let him learn, and the front office cant/wont force the team to play him and find out what exactly we have in him, theres no point in keeping him at all.

2) If you honestly believe JP isnt THE guy. Then what exactly do you do at QB? You ride your next season and/or more seasons on Holcomb who hasnt exactly lit the league up this year either for us and has 10 years worth fo proving to other teams that he aint starter material? Are you honestly gonna try to feed that to the fans who are so ticked that we are 5 and 10 and out of the playoffs for yet another year? I cant find the logic in that. Did everyone magically forget the Pats? We play them. Holcomb looked PUTRID against them, he was sacked, fumbled, and knocked right out of the game.

3) If you dont think it JP, and it isnt Holcomb. Then who the hell is it? Ther is jack squat at the 10-12 pick we are likely to have as far as QB's. Want to trade a kings ransom for a proven playoff QB? I love the thought but isnt that what we did with Drew? How did it go?

Facts are facts guys, we have not had one single average QB come in here and do jack squat for the past decade. Flutie, AVP, RJ, Collins. Holcomb hasnt looked to be anything more than average this year either, yet you STILL are willing to forget the past decade, supposedly build an all star o-line in one year, and Holcomb will magically become what he hasnt been in 10 years up till now, a playoff and beyond QB? That sounds like a lot more of a risk to me than taking your lumps in the hopes that your young guy develops his god given talent into a player that can win DESPITE a bad line, or DESPITE team controversy, or DEMAND mental toughness. If your not willing to take your lumps, what did we just do this year? How many games next year did JP's benching(s) cost us? I hope none, but who knows. Why does our past 10 years suddenly chage in one offseason? How much longer will we force a round peg in a square hole. Im not the brightest guy out there, but didnt a hall of fame QB lead this team to 4 straight SB's. Yet now we are SO strong mentaly, and SO stout talent wise at all teh other positions, that we can go to even ONE with a career backup? Did I miss something? arent you the same people that claim we suck in so many ways, but now at one of the most critical positions and based on a total of 3 (maybe) games, your willing to think a vet with average number will step up WAY beyond his ability and overcome our overall patheticness to lead us to the playoffs next year?

JP was given the job, true. Should we have? I dont know. But what I DONT think we should have done is give him the job, tell the press ( and therefore all the fans) that he would only be pulled in the most extreme circumstances, and then go and pull him 3 games in. Especially when most of us here, 3 games in, said we were not even close enough to being a playoff team because the OTHER 3 things that needed to happen 1) Great Defense 2) Good o-line play 3) a strong running game, DIDNT.

Now, you didnt say its all JP fault, but if it isnt, why in the hell not start him and work on all the other stuff? What benefit do we get from starting Holcomb? If its the tream rallying around Kelly and not JP, a good HC and some roster moves can fix that, unless you want to simply cut or trade him, and the I say, OK, lets do it, and THEN what?

[X-Era]

Where the hell you been?

When we were losing with JP at helm, it was everyone but JP's fault.


Why do you think everyone wanted to fire everyone except JP?

Good call Holcomb is 3 and 3, that equals a season of 8 and 8 and out of the playoffs. Now THATS thinking!

[X-Era]

you forgot to add a W to that statistic against a very good team on the road.. With that W I'll take it over 10 tds at home to go with a loss anyday.

Seriously, even you should realize how silly you just sounded. Cinn is in the playoffs, they are only battling for bye/home field. In a way this was semi-meaningless. Secondly, your willing to bank you rteams future on a guy who hasnt had a 3 TD game all season? More often than not he throws 1 TD and then a int. THATS all you want?

If your D aint gonna prevent TD's, you better score ALOT or your gonna lose ALOT. Apparently you have converted the game of Football into a game where the LEAST points wins.

[Mudflap1]

jp-era:

Your last post was an interesting read, but I think you are mixing some things together. What I mean is, the coaches and GM put this team in a pickle right from the start this year, and they put Losman in a pickle.

What they did:
Cut Bledsoe, said this team is playoff-ready, and said Losman is starting unconditionally. They brought in Holcomb as the emergency care-taker. Of course the fans are going to revolt if playoff expectations aren't met.

What they should have done:
Kept Bledsoe and had him compete with Losman for the starting job. Best guy wins. If Drew wins the job and takes the team to the playoffs, everyone is happy. If Drew wins the job and struggles, Losman wins the job, but doesn't have the pressure to take the team to the playoffs, such as he did this season. If Losman wins the job outright in camp, he has the pressure to produce, but Bledsoe can still be brought back in if he struggles. If Losman wins the job outright in a fierce competition and keeps it, then he must have done a good job.

Again, I don't agree with how this whole thing went down to begin with. As for starting this last game, I don't know why Holcomb is starting for sure. I agree it makes common sense to start the young guy during the last game with nothing meaningful on the line. If he isn't starting, then 1) he's hurt, or 2) the team hates his guts so much in the locker room that they've put their foot down that they won't play for him. I have to believe it's #2, only because his injury should have been healed by now. I don't know why they hate his guts so much, but like Mularkey or not, if he's decided to bench his prodigy, there must be a good reason, er a bad reason.

Look, it's not fair that Losman had unfair expectations put on him going into this season, but it's also not fair that he gets a boatload of excuses thrown his way on why he can still be the next Peyton, Eli, or Carson. We all want to see him get there, me included. However, he's a professional making millions of dollars out there just like the rest of 'em. Just like Kelly Holcomb. I want to see a franchise QB too, just like we had with Jim Kelly. However, there are other needs on this team right now that need to be met, and if they are met, then I believe Holcomb OR Losman can lead this team to the playoffs, I'm not sure if it will matter. If the defensive line is tweaked and the unit can regain prior form, and if the offensive line can be rebuilt so that the power running game can become a reality, the passing game will then flourish. Both guys would have time to throw. Both guys could use playaction. Both guys will be able to see Roscoe, Josh, Lee, and Eric downfield and not have to worry about 3rd and longs. That's where I'd like to see this team. Then, at that point, whichever quarterback has the offense down and the respect of his teammates, deserves to start.

Jon

[Mudflap1]

Seriously, even you should realize how silly you just sounded. Cinn is in the playoffs, they are only battling for bye/home field. In a way this was semi-meaningless.

See, here's your problem. This statement is totally assinine. Cincinnati had a lot to play for. They could have had homefield advantage and a bye, and now are in danger of losing that to New England, and having to play wild card weekend. The Bengals had a lot to gain by beating the Bills on Saturday.

However, if Losman played that game Saturday and won 37-27, I wonder how your tone would be towards it???

Jon

[X-Era]

See, here's your problem. This statement is totally assinine. Cincinnati had a lot to play for. They could have had homefield advantage and a bye, and now are in danger of losing that to New England, and having to play wild card weekend. The Bengals had a lot to gain by beating the Bills on Saturday.

However, if Losman played that game Saturday and won 37-27, I wonder how your tone would be towards it???

Jon

Hey, I admitted the things they WERE playing for. And I have never said that JP is Peyton Manning right now. This whole thing is about potential, thats it. If JP lead us to a 6 to 0 lead against a team like the Bengals, I would have criticized us for not burying them with that many trips to the red zone. Its NOT good enough to play like that. And, as a matter of fact, that game could have EASILY gone the other way if an improbable KR and INT didnt go for TD's. What would YOU have said then about Holcomb? I should say, you can EXPECT to not go to the playoffs playing like that. IMO, the Holcomb led team in the Pats game was lost because we didnt bury them even though we dominated them but ended up only going up 3 to 0 at the half. You cant do that and expect to win. Yards doesnt win games, points do.

I am a JP fan, but because of potential to win games when we DONT play like a team, which WILL happen. I am a fan of potential to be a playmaker who steps UP when the chips are down. I am not a fan of the backups can win for us concept. It hasnt worked in the past decade, what has changed? NOTHING!

[Ickybaluky]

I don't disagree with the thought that Losman should play now, given that the Bills don't have anything to play for. He is a young QB and the benefit he gets from playing outweighs anything else. The same can be said for other positions as well.

However, going into the season you have to play the best guy, the guy that wins an open competition in camp. If that is Losman, so be it. If it is Holcomb, fine.

The best guy has to play, at every position. Otherwise, you are creating natural division among the team. The Bills made that mistake this past offseason and ended up putting J.P. in a very difficult position. IMO, that hurt him more than helped him.

The best guy plays, unless you are just playing out the string.

[X-Era]

jp-era:

Your last post was an interesting read, but I think you are mixing some things together. What I mean is, the coaches and GM put this team in a pickle right from the start this year, and they put Losman in a pickle.

What they did:
Cut Bledsoe, said this team is playoff-ready, and said Losman is starting unconditionally. They brought in Holcomb as the emergency care-taker. Of course the fans are going to revolt if playoff expectations aren't met.

What they should have done:
Kept Bledsoe and had him compete with Losman for the starting job. Best guy wins. If Drew wins the job and takes the team to the playoffs, everyone is happy. If Drew wins the job and struggles, Losman wins the job, but doesn't have the pressure to take the team to the playoffs, such as he did this season. If Losman wins the job outright in camp, he has the pressure to produce, but Bledsoe can still be brought back in if he struggles. If Losman wins the job outright in a fierce competition and keeps it, then he must have done a good job.

Again, I don't agree with how this whole thing went down to begin with. As for starting this last game, I don't know why Holcomb is starting for sure. I agree it makes common sense to start the young guy during the last game with nothing meaningful on the line. If he isn't starting, then 1) he's hurt, or 2) the team hates his guts so much in the locker room that they've put their foot down that they won't play for him. I have to believe it's #2, only because his injury should have been healed by now. I don't know why they hate his guts so much, but like Mularkey or not, if he's decided to bench his prodigy, there must be a good reason, er a bad reason.

Look, it's not fair that Losman had unfair expectations put on him going into this season, but it's also not fair that he gets a boatload of excuses thrown his way on why he can still be the next Peyton, Eli, or Carson. We all want to see him get there, me included. However, he's a professional making millions of dollars out there just like the rest of 'em. Just like Kelly Holcomb. I want to see a franchise QB too, just like we had with Jim Kelly. However, there are other needs on this team right now that need to be met, and if they are met, then I believe Holcomb OR Losman can lead this team to the playoffs, I'm not sure if it will matter. If the defensive line is tweaked and the unit can regain prior form, and if the offensive line can be rebuilt so that the power running game can become a reality, the passing game will then flourish. Both guys would have time to throw. Both guys could use playaction. Both guys will be able to see Roscoe, Josh, Lee, and Eric downfield and not have to worry about 3rd and longs. That's where I'd like to see this team. Then, at that point, whichever quarterback has the offense down and the respect of his teammates, deserves to start.

Jon

To be fair, Im havent been making excuses for Losman. I ONLY did that when he got benched 4 games in. Im sorry but 4 games, when the TEAM hasnt played well enough to win, is not a reason to bail out on what you set out to do which is become one of the better teams in the league. I agree that ww blew it in the offseason, if you remember, I was loud and clear as a protester when we let Jennings and Pat go without UPGRADES as replacements. Gandy proved to be pretty decent, as far as our DT's, you know what happened.

Just to set the record straight, NEITHER Jp or Holcomb is good enough to lead THIS team to the playoffs right now. And my opinion is only that we should then play the guy with upside to figure out whether he will be the guy or not, and if not, it only lets us try to get the RIGHT guy sooner.

As far as your call on Drew, I cant disagree with the concept, Im just not sure it would have played out like that.

[justasportsfan]

Seriously, even you should realize how silly you just sounded. Cinn is in the playoffs, they are only battling for bye/home field. In a way this was semi-meaningless. Secondly, your willing to bank you rteams future on a guy who hasnt had a 3 TD game all season? More often than not he throws 1 TD and then a int. THATS all you want?

If your D aint gonna prevent TD's, you better score ALOT or your gonna lose ALOT. Apparently you have converted the game of Football into a game where the LEAST points wins.wait we won on the road against a playoff team and yet you have a problem and attempt to downplay Holcomb's performance. That of which was the best performance by any qb in years against a playoffs team.

Downplaying KH's performance makes it obvious that you are being defensive about JP. I think JP is our future. He only needs to learn what KH knows so that he may have such a performance. I am almost sure that when JP has that ability to read D's like KH does, with his physical skills, he will be a force. Right now, JP is no there yet. No need to get defensive about it by attempting to find fault in KH's performance.

I'll take such a performance with a win anyday.

[Lexwhat]

Thank you for some posting that wasn't fit for a braindead mongrel...

STOP COMPARING LOSMAN TO ELI MANNING, PEYTON MANNING, AND CARSON PALMER!

They were ALL #1 overall draft picks! They were 1) seen as near-locks to be stud quarterbacks, and 2) drafted by very bad football teams. They started quickly because their teams were all in rebuilding mode (hence them all owning #1 overall draft picks).

...

Jon

WOW! GREAT POST!! :bf1:

:posrep: Even though I don't have much power ...

[finsrclowns]

JP era your man love for JP has reached new heights. Only you could spin that our biggest victory of the season is inferior to our most crushing defeat, a defeat which JP had a hand in with his brutal interception at the goal line. Get over it, Holcomb had a great game and we won. End of story.

[Mudflap1]

jp-era:

justasportsfan and NE39 are right in their posts. You are going out of your way to find fault with Kelly Holcomb. Nowhere are any of us saying he is the savior of the franchise. In fact, we are all saying that we believe Losman can be that guy. He's not there yet. Maybe here is your problem...

It's about more than playing time. Your argument seems to be that because Holcomb is a career backup, then he isn't going to take us anywhere, and doesn't deserve to play. Likewise, your argument is that Losman needs to start now, needed to start the whole season, and whether the team as a whole went 0-16 collectively, well it didn't matter, because we were starting J.P. Losman the golden boy so he could "get his lumps." It takes more than playing time to be a good quarterback. While you love J.P.'s attitude, it appears that his maturity is indeed his biggest problem. He needs to keep his confidence in his abilities throughout, because he has great physical abilities. However, he needs to stop being so ****-sure with his teammates, and develop some humbleness about him, such as Kelly Holcomb has. Holcomb has maturity with his game. He has sat behind Peyton Manning for years, and learned how he has played. He also has been through some lean years in Cleveland, and played some good games for them (some bad games too). Case in part, Steve Young was a highly touted quarterback. He played in the USFL, and then with a bad Tampa Bay team. He was not a very good quarterback. He then took a backup role to Joe Montana for a couple of years, then took over when Joe became injury-prone. Young was great. Part of that was he was surrounded with the likes of Jerry Rice, Brent Jones, et al, but part of that was he had gained much-needed maturity by being around Joe Montana, Mike Shanahan, Mike Holmgren, etc.

I'm not there with the players every day, none of us are. However, it appears that while Losman may have spent the offseason preparing with the coaches (which is good), he seems to be aloof with his teammates during the season and has lacked the focus with his teammates. Not only do you have to win over your coaches, but the players have to believe in you too. Right now, he doesn't have that, along with him learning the game. I am an advocate of him getting his much needed playing time now as the season is lost, but when it comes time for a fresh season, I think the best man needs to play. Right now, that guy is not J.P. Losman. Maybe it will be come next preseason, I sincerely hope he will be, but he's not right now.

Furthermore, Kelly Holcomb has come in and played pretty well under the circumstances. To say Cincinnati had nothing to play for and Holcomb wasn't impressive is an ignorant statement that makes people want to shoot holes in the rest of your stories. Give the guy credit. He has had some other games this season where he has played well too. He makes minimal mistakes. One could argue that he could even been more efficient if had the opportunity to work with the first team all season. Right now he's playing better football than Losman, and he has the respect of his teammates and coaches. Losman should take note, and then once he does the same (along with learning the game a bit more), he should start again (next season).

Jon

[DaBills]

"They brought in Holcomb as the emergency care-taker. Of course the fans are going to revolt if playoff expectations aren't met."

And this metriculates right back to the point. Fans revolt, or worse, coaches panic and yank players. Regardless of what type of team the Giants had, or what kind of 'mode' they were in, Coughlin stuck with Manning. Period. MM did not with JP.

And at that point when it was time to "break glass in case of failing-to-develop young QB," they got stuck with KH. I love NEITHER qb per se, I just want the guy who gives us the best chance to win.

But while the victory over Cinn is great, it can't erase the lousy games he had previously against arguably worse teams, (nor does it make me forget JP's lousy games). But isn't that how we got fooled into thinking Drew just needed 'one more year' behind a good OL? KH isn't consistent enough to be in Dilfer's league at this point.

Again, why is the team spending time on resurrecting/seeing if a vet QB can make it while ignoring JP? Because in that case, that alone shows TD and MM have to go. They wasted a first-round pick then they had no intention of sticking with – or worse, TD really has no ability to judge talent.

But otherwise, when you draft a first-round QB or any player, that's the chance you take: 50-50. And if it doesn't pan out, do you really give up a QB after four games? Why then is Mike Williams still in the teams' plans then? He was supposed to be the piece that helps rebuild the O-line, which in turn you would think might aid in the success of your QB.

:afro: