Losman vs. Manning

[realdealryan]

Eli, not Peyton. Looking at some stats, I thought this was interesting....


Year Team Games/Started Att Comp Pct Yds YPA Lg TD Int Rate
Losman
2005 Bills 9/8 228 113 49.6 1340 5.8 58 8 8 64.9
Manning
2004 Giants 9/7 197 95 48.2 1043 5.3 52 6 9 55.4

I know that stats aren't everything, and these two teams are different, but I don't like the bad attitude many have in regards to JP. I wouldn't write the kid off yet. Maybe I'm wrong; time will tell....

[OpIv37]

the real problem is that our moron coaching staff is jerking everyone around. Losman didn't get enough playing time to gain experience, so whether or not he's good enough is still up in the air.

QB has been a ? for this team ever since Kelly left and I'm getting pretty damn sick of it.

[kevinj22]

the real problem is that our moron coaching staff is jerking everyone around. Losman didn't get enough playing time to gain experience, so whether or not he's good enough is still up in the air.

QB has been a ? for this team ever since Kelly left and I'm getting pretty damn sick of it.That's a good point, because we are sort put back into the same situation next year. Although we need to look at other rookie or first year starters around the league and see where JP stacks up. The main stat is winning football games. K. Orton was winning games, C. Simms was winning games, Gerrard (Jacksonville) was winning games. If you look at these teams they each have one thing in common "A GOOD DEFENSE". I don't know what the hell happened to our defense this year but we really sucked.

[Philagape]

Here are some other first-year QBs:

John Elway: 47.5%, 6.42 YPA, 7 TD, 14 INT, 54.9 rating
Troy Aikman: 52.9%, 6.0 YPA, 9 TD, 18 INT, 55.7 rating
Drew Bledsoe: 49.9%, 5.81 YPA, 15 TD, 15 INT, 65.0 rating
Steve Young: 53.7%, 6.29 YPA, 8 TD, 13 INT, 65.5 rating
Steve McNair: 52%, 6.42 YPA, 14 TD, 13 INT, 70.4 rating
Peyton Manning: 56.7%, 6.5 YPA, 26 TD, 28 INT, 71.2 rating

[Throne Logic]

That's a good point, because we are sort put back into the same situation next year. . . . I don't know what the hell happened to our defense this year but we really sucked.


What really aggitates me is that many of us were saying this back in August. If JP doesn't get sufficient playing time this season, we'll be doing the same damned thing again next year.

And yes, our D certaily didn't hold up their end.

[The_Philster]

What really aggitates me is that many of us were saying this back in August. If JP doesn't get sufficient playing time this season, we'll be doing the same damned thing again next year..Yep..:unhappy: On the plus side, I do think he's shown a lot to say he is gonna be pretty good, IMO.

[Mudflap1]

John Elway: 47.5%, 6.42 YPA, 7 TD, 14 INT, 54.9 rating
Troy Aikman: 52.9%, 6.0 YPA, 9 TD, 18 INT, 55.7 rating
Drew Bledsoe: 49.9%, 5.81 YPA, 15 TD, 15 INT, 65.0 rating
Steve Young: 53.7%, 6.29 YPA, 8 TD, 13 INT, 65.5 rating
Steve McNair: 52%, 6.42 YPA, 14 TD, 13 INT, 70.4 rating
Peyton Manning: 56.7%, 6.5 YPA, 26 TD, 28 INT, 71.2 rating

Most of these players were taken, I believe, number one overall. You should compare them to Manning and Carson Palmer, not Losman.

Should we compare how many late first round quarterbacks have been chosen and turned out to be busts?

Jon

[Philagape]

Most of these players were taken, I believe, number one overall. You should compare them to Manning and Carson Palmer, not Losman.

Should we compare how many late first round quarterbacks have been chosen and turned out to be busts?

Jon

How is their draft position relevant?? Montana and Favre went in the second round. Brady in the sixth. And plenty of high No. 1s have been busts. (Jeff George, anyone?)

Totally irrelevant.

[Mudflap1]

How is their draft position relevant?? Montana and Favre went in the second round. Brady in the sixth. And plenty of high No. 1s have been busts. (Jeff George, anyone?)

Totally irrelevant.

Uhhhh, because everyone on this message board that is a J.P. Losman advocate seems to be hell-bent on comparing him to CARSON PALMER, ELI MANNING, and PEYTON MANNING, in particular. They were all number 1 overall picks. That means out of all of the players in the draft, they were viewed as the BEST player. J.P. Losman was not a number 1 overall pick. He was late first round. Doesn't mean he was a bad prospect, he was a very good prospect. However, it's unfair to HIM (yes, that's right, to him) to compare him to three franchise quarterbacks who were viewed as the best overall talents of any of their peers in their respective draft years. All young quarterbacks have crappy numbers, that's not a story. Stop saying "well, his numbers are a little less crappy than Eli's, so that means J.P. is going to be twice as good!" We'll see. The draft is a crap shoot, but there's a reason a guy is chosen number one overall, as opposed to late first round. Let's not forget, the reason he was drafted where he was was because our all-star talent evaluators insisted on trading up into the first round to get him. He may have been taken soon after, but we'll never know. Like I said, we'll see how he shakes out.

Jon

[The_Philster]

The point people are making with the comparison is that almost all 1st year starters struggle...regardless of draft position

[Philagape]

All young quarterbacks have crappy numbers, that's not a story.

And that's the point. The comparisons we make have nothing to do with where the QBs were drafted. It's about how QBs who turned out pretty good had crappy first years. Once a QB enters the NFL, anything they did in college is irrelevant. How they are viewed is irrelevant. We're talking about what they actually do in the NFL. Nobody is saying JP will be as good as any QB I've listed. That's not the point. The point is, don't judge him on this season, which some people here do.

[Mudflap1]

That's true. However, Palmer, Manning, and Manning were all also on worse teams arguably than the talent we have here in Buffalo. My point is, stop making excuses for J.P. Losman and coddling him like an infant. If he's going to be good, let him prove that on his own. Don't make excuses for his crappy numbers by saying that "well, there a little bit better than Eli's."

All young quarterbacks struggle, but they all turn the corner usually by year three (starting experience or no starting experience). We'll see what he's made of soon enough. In the meantime, let him earn it.

Jon

[The_Philster]

Who's really coddling him though? :idunno:

[Philagape]

That's true. However, Palmer, Manning, and Manning were all also on worse teams arguably than the talent we have here in Buffalo.

We're pretty bad, too. Our O-line has been horrid and we've gotten little help from the D and our coaching sucks.

[Mudflap1]

And that's the point. The comparisons we make have nothing to do with where the QBs were drafted. It's about how QBs who turned out pretty good had crappy first years. Once a QB enters the NFL, anything they did in college is irrelevant. How they are viewed is irrelevant. We're talking about what they actually do in the NFL. Nobody is saying JP will be as good as any QB I've listed. That's not the point. The point is, don't judge him on this season, which some people here do.

I agree that you cannot label him as a bust based upon this season. However, overall I'd say his play has been a disappointment. While YOU may be saying that he needs more time and all young QB's struggle, there is definitely an undertone on this site with all of the J.P. backers (like jp-era -- no offense buddy) that he needs an extra amount of excuses, and that there are often assumptions put with his numbers, such as how he's going to be the next Jim Kelly, etc. Don't do that. He hasn't earned squat. He's played a bit this season and has shown SOME improvement (sans New England). Let him earn his playing time. So far, frankly, he hasn't earned it. He's not the best quarterback on this team, and as the coach, your job is to play your best 22 starters. By the way, while we are comparing where the Bills w/ Losman could be with the likes of Peyton/Colts, Palmer/Bengals, and Manning/Giants, why don't we compare him to some other top QB picks, like Leaf/Chargers, Smith/Bengals, and Carr/Texans? Did those guys deserve the excuses and coddling that you are suggesting for J.P.? Carr maybe.

Jon

[Mudflap1]

Who's really coddling him though? :idunno:

Let's start with jp-era and his never-ending threads about why Losman DESERVES to start and why he's going to be the next Jim Kelly...

Jon

[Mudflap1]

We're pretty bad, too. Our O-line has been horrid and we've gotten little help from the D and our coaching sucks.

We finished 9-7 somehow last season, didn't we? If we can make some solid moves on the offensive and defensive lines, this team is a lot better very quickly.

Jon

[The_Philster]

Do you think we can make those moves with Donahoe, though?

[Mudflap1]

I think a new GM can make those moves. I think that Wilson may make Donahoe spend some money (finally -- he really hasn't done so the past two offseasons). Whether Donahoe brings in guys that turn out like Milloy, Spikes, Posey, and Fletcher (for the offensive and defensive lines), or guys like Mike Williams, Bledsoe, and Eddie Robinson remain to be seen. When Donahoe gets aggressive (a big "when"), he is a crap shoot in terms of his track record. The problem is, he doesn't even get to that point very much. He basically stood pat the last two offseasons. Sure, guys like Vincent came in, but he was replacing Winfield.

We need to be very proactive this offseason and spend some money on these key positions. It's very simple, DT's and offensive linemen. Spend some money, no matter who is running the show, hopefully not Donahoe.

Jon

[slakjaw157]

No

[Philagape]

We finished 9-7 somehow last season, didn't we? If we can make some solid moves on the offensive and defensive lines, this team is a lot better very quickly.

Jon

OK but I'm talking about right now. What you just said shows we need help in the lines, and without the lines we don't have a team.

And here's how we finished 9-7 ... by playing Cleveland, San Fran, Arizona, a worse Miami, a worse Cincinnati ..... and our lines were better last year.

[realdealryan]

All young quarterbacks struggle, but they all turn the corner usually by year three (starting experience or no starting experience). We'll see what he's made of soon enough. In the meantime, let him earn it.

Jon

"Year three" will be 5 years from now if he has to split playing time with mediocre journeymen.

Two things: 1. He wasn't going to be good this year, and he needs time at the helm. 2. The rest of the team definitely did not turn in the same year that they did last year, whether it's because of personnel differences or just poor performance.

[Mudflap1]

"Year three" will be 5 years from now if he has to split playing time with mediocre journeymen.

Two things: 1. He wasn't going to be good this year, and he needs time at the helm. 2. The rest of the team definitely did not turn in the same year that they did last year, whether it's because of personnel differences or just poor performance.

It takes more than playing time to become a good quarterback. Ryan Leaf and Joey Harrington have started a lot of games, but neither one of them has the right attitude or maturity.

How did we know he wasn't going to be good this year? I suspected it, but the coaches led everyone down the primrose path that he could be the next Ben Roethlisberger and win games without having to win them single-handedly.

I agree with your second point, the team overall isn't where they were last year.

Jon