Is Brady a system quarterback?

[FirstDownBills]

Do you think he could be just as resillient on another team? Or do the Patriots make him look like a hall of fame caliber quarterback? Opinions?

[Philagape]

I think he's good regardless. He can throw short or long, can move around, makes good decisions. His game is mental. The Pats mix it up so much that it's hard to call what they have a system.

[Dozerdog]

I think Brady makes OK recievers look like all stars. David Patton- What has he done since leaving? He helped Antoine Smith look more than serviceable.

Put him on the Bills with decent playcalling, and we would look like world beaters

[Dozerdog]

The guy has one thing very few have- GUTS and commitment.

[FirstDownBills]

The guy has one thing very few have- GUTS and commitment.


Does your dog's behind really look like that (excluding the sunglasses)? :lmao:

[SquishDaFish]

Ive been saying that for a while now. I bet my house that if you take him off that team he wouldnt be no where near as good. The pats are the perfect TEAM and that team and system together with that leadership is what gets it done.

[Philagape]

Ive been saying that for a while now. I bet my house that if you take him off that team he wouldnt be no where near as good. The pats are the perfect TEAM and that team and system together with that leadership is what gets it done.

What does he do with NE that he couldn't do elsewhere? Like Dozer said, it's him that makes the players around him better. Their offense is built around him. He's the only Pro Bowl player on their offense.

[That Guy]

In my opinion he's the best quarterback in the league as far as a total package. There's not one QB in the league I'd rather have on the Bills than Brady. He makes all the throws, he's one of the top three most clutch players in the history of the league, and he makes everyone around him look good.

[FirstDownBills]

In my opinion he's the best quarterback in the league as far as a total package. There's not one QB in the league I'd rather have on the Bills than Brady. He makes all the throws, he's one of the top three most clutch players in the history of the league, and he makes everyone around him look good.

Would you say he's better than Kelly?

[That Guy]

Would you say he's better than Kelly?
I'd have to say yes. First off... 3-0 vs. 0-4. Kelly was also surrounded by better offensive firepower. Both teams were well-coached, both teams had good defenses. New England's roster isn't anything special... Brady is the main thing binding that team together.

Jimbo's a Hall of Famer, but I truly feel like Tom Brady is on his way to being a Top 3 legend.





...of course Kurt Warner was once on the pace too.

[lordofgun]

In my opinion he's the best quarterback in the league as far as a total package. There's not one QB in the league I'd rather have on the Bills than Brady. He makes all the throws, he's one of the top three most clutch players in the history of the league, and he makes everyone around him look good.
Too bad he's gay. :ill:

[Topdog]

At 28, if he happens to win the SB this year , look for him to be one of, if not the greatest QB! As far as records go at least! He will have earned it.

[That Guy]

Too bad he's gay. :ill:
Hetero obviously isn't getting the job done for the Bills. Maybe we need a transition.

[FirstDownBills]

I'd have to say yes. First off... 3-0 vs. 0-4. Kelly was also surrounded by better offensive firepower. Both teams were well-coached, both teams had good defenses. New England's roster isn't anything special... Brady is the main thing binding that team together.

Jimbo's a Hall of Famer, but I truly feel like Tom Brady is on his way to being a Top 3 legend.





...of course Kurt Warner was once on the pace too.

I wish Kelly had won a Super Bowl :unhappy:

[Philagape]

I remember some naysayers saying "let's see how he does without Weis" ... well, he led the league in passing yards, third in TDs

[Mr. Cynical]

BB could make Todd Collins look great.

[Philagape]

BB could make Todd Collins look great.

But not Drew Bledsoe ;)

[SquishDaFish]

Noone could make Drew look good except 5 Pro Bowl OLmen and 1 pro bowl WR and 1 Pro Bowl TE. And last time I checked the Patriots won those SBs not just Brady.

[Mr. Cynical]

But not Drew Bledsoe ;)

BB is a genius not a miracle worker. :;

[RedEyE]

Honestly, if they continue to win and get close to the SB, he has to be getting bored. I mean since he picked up the ball in New England, he has been doing nothing but winning. That will get old after a while. A real competitor loves a challenge. He may just try another team, or even worse pack it up and call it a short career Walter Payton style.

[FirstDownBills]

Honestly, if they continue to win and get close to the SB, he has to be getting bored. I mean since he picked up the ball in New England, he has been doing nothing but winning. That will get old after a while. A real competitor loves a challenge. He may just try another team, or even worse pack it up and call it a short career Walter Payton style.


Why would winning get boring?

[RedEyE]

Why would winning get boring?

Don't ask me, I'm a Bills fan.

[Mr. Cynical]

Whatever it takes to make the Pats suck again

[bledslow]

Ive been saying that for a while now. I bet my house that if you take him off that team he wouldnt be no where near as good. The pats are the perfect TEAM and that team and system together with that leadership is what gets it done.

i agree 100 percent. i think brady would struggle with hall of famers like lofton,reed, and thurman thomas.
because those guys suk....


he needs world beaters like brown,givens,paten,fauria, branch ect ect, just to be successful. he struggles on most passes and he moves around in the pocket like a 3 legged turtle and gets sacked every other play. he has a very slow release and his mental decision making/reading defenses is worse then what corkey the ret_ard could do.
i wish they keep bledsoe and keep tom as the 3rd stringer.

[FirstDownBills]

Pats fans are spoiled. They probably don't get excited about winning anymore. Oh how I dream of the Bills winning a Super Bowl.

[X-Era]

Do you think he could be just as resillient on another team? Or do the Patriots make him look like a hall of fame caliber quarterback? Opinions?
If the system is watching Brady Bunch re-runs and spanking it every time Peter's voice crackles than yes, Peter (Tom) Brady is a system quarterback.

[Ickybaluky]

I'd take it a step further and say that Brady makes the Pats. The Pats would be a good team, but Brady is what separates them from everyone else.

Without Brady, I don't think the Pats win any of the Super Bowls, I really believe that. Other than Manning, there isn't another QB in the NFL who can do what he does as consistently as he does it.

[X-Era]

I'd take it a step further and say that Brady makes the Pats. The Pats would be a good team, but Brady is what separates them from everyone else.

Without Brady, I don't think the Pats win any of the Super Bowls, I really believe that. Other than Manning, there isn't another QB in the NFL who can do what he does as consistently as he does it.

Peter Brady is the single most overrated player in NFL history, bar none.

He is Warner or Garcia. If he played on ANY other team he would royaly suck major moose crank.

There is NO doubt about that.

If he was truly as good as you claim he is, he and his agent would have demanded MUCH MUCH more. Inside Tom's head he knows he isnt that good and that the TEAM is why you win.

[Mr. Cynical]

I'd take it a step further and say that Brady makes the Pats. The Pats would be a good team, but Brady is what separates them from everyone else.

Without Brady, I don't think the Pats win any of the Super Bowls, I really believe that. Other than Manning, there isn't another QB in the NFL who can do what he does as consistently as he does it.

One reason they win: Belichick.

1. The team is always very well prepared.
2. The team is always extremetly motivated.
3. The gameplan is almost always perfect.
4. Gametime adjustments are almost always perfect.
5. Players go down on both sides of the ball, are cut or traded and the new replacements work just as well.

All of these things are not because of Brady.

You can try, but there really is no debating it. BB is the most valuable part of your team.

[John Doe]

One reason they win: Belichick.

1. The team is always very well prepared.
2. The team is always extremetly motivated.
3. The gameplan is almost always perfect.
4. Gametime adjustments are almost always perfect.
5. Players go down on both sides of the ball, are cut or traded and the new replacements work just as well.

All of these things are not because of Brady.

You can try, but there really is no debating it. BB is the most valuable part of your team.

I don't recall Belichick being an outstanding head coach before Tom Brady came along.

[DaBills]

"Why would winning get boring?

Don't ask me, I'm a Bills fan."


:lmao:


Great is tough. I think Brady is a very good QB with GREAT coach.

I would compare Brady's ability to Aikman's. And I rate them very good because they're QB's that fit into a situation that had other comparably-talented players around them, so they didn't have to be spectacular all the time. Elway or Favre? They had to be. I would say that Emmit Smith was a great RB while Troy was a very good, consistent QB.

And there's not really gaudy numbers for them like a Moon or a Marino, but they are consistent and they have the rings. Both were in sync with their coaches, they both had a great supporting cast of WRs, RBs and TE's. Both also were/are on teams with great defenses that if not dominating games, kept them in close ones to give them the chance to win them.

But as far as great, I have to look at a Montana just on his leadership, numbers and rings. Favre or an Elway are great but for different reasons. Maybe Kelly and Marino, but you have to factor in the lack of a SB ring thing regardless of the numbers. Both came back from deficits in games constantly. Brady never really has that problem. Aikman did when they sucked their first two years, but then they turned the corner.

You could say Favre and Elway had it the toughest because until T. Davis came along, Elway had to shoulder the load and win games on sheer will alone. Doesn't he still hold the record for most 4th quarter comebacks? Who'd Favre ever really have besides Sharpe? Marino at least had Duper and Clayton. Kelly had a great cast around him as we know.

So to answer the question another way, I 'd say keep the Pats intact and swap out coaches. The Pats still win a lot of games on talent, but I think they don't win like they would with BB making adjustments at halftime. look at tonight alone.

Jax had NE right there in the first half, but couldn't stop stepping on their dicks. Everyone in the NE front office is giving themselves handjobs right now, but their secondary is there for the taking and they can't run the ball very well. If Jax had WRs that could hang onto the ball, they win that game tonight.


:afro:

[Philagape]

If he played on ANY other team he would royaly suck major moose crank.

There is NO doubt about that.


No doubt among whom?

:homer:

Again, what is it about NE that makes him so great? They don't have Pro Bowl-caliber receivers. Or linemen. And Dillon did squat this year.

Of the Pats' three SBs, Brady was MVP in two of them, and the third was a guy Brady was throwing to (who just happened to be the receiver who had a good game that week).

Would his accuracy suddenly suffer on another team? His leadership? His pocket presence?

As for Belichick, he's a defensive guru, not offensive. Brady's the only QB who has ever really thrived under BB. Weis was the offensive mastermind, and Brady has still thrived without him.

Only biased fans of a rival team doubt him. Personally I can't stand him, but I judge players objectively, and he's the real deal.

[Mr. Cynical]

Only biased fans of a rival team doubt him. Personally I can't stand him, but I judge players objectively, and he's the real deal.
We almost always agree and I mostly agree with you here...but not with everything. I do think Brady is a very good QB and would do well on other teams. No doubt.

But I stand by my assertion that it is because of BB that the Pats are as successful as they are. Too many other aspects of the team and the gameplanning are a direct result of BB.

[Philagape]

Like all great teams, it's a combination. No one person deserves the credit. Great coach, great QB.

[Ebenezer]

3 SB rings...he hits 30K yards and he will be a HOF. The guy is a great QB. Did you see how pissed he was with 3 minutes left and they didn't get that first down inside their own 15??

The guy is incredible. Who the hell in their right mind would think he is average? In fact, I have never heard anybody say he wasn't a great QB...except on these boards.

[Mr. Cynical]

3 SB rings...he hits 30K yards and he will be a HOF. The guy is a great QB. Did you see how pissed he was with 3 minutes left and they didn't get that first down inside their own 15??

The guy is incredible. Who the hell in their right mind would think he is average? In fact, I have never heard anybody say he wasn't a great QB...except on these boards.

No doubt he is in the HoF. He is just like Aikman.

[Ebenezer]

No doubt he is in the HoF. He is just like Aikman.
he's better than aikman...aikman had one of the best OL ever and a great receiver...Brady has .......................

[chubluv]

I would have said last year that Brady was a system QB his whole carrer, but this season has made me think about it. With all the injuries to the RB's &his O-line I think he deserves a little respect (as much I hate to admit that).

His biggest play is always on third and long when the defence plays a soft zone against him with no pas rush and he just sits back there and picks them apart.

[Philagape]

What is the Pats' system anyway? Some games they like to spread five receivers and throw a lot. Other games they'll pound the RB. Sometimes one receiver will have a huge day, others it will be spread around. They can dink and dunk, they can go long to Branch. They can get cute and they can keep it simple. They can do boring ball control, and they can light it up.

Seems to me that their system is Let Brady Find The Right Guy

[Ebenezer]

What is the Pats' system anyway? Some games they like to spread five receivers and throw a lot. Other games they'll pound the RB. Sometimes one receiver will have a huge day, others it will be spread around. They can dink and dunk, they can go long to Branch. They can get cute and they can keep it simple. They can do boring ball control, and they can light it up.

Seems to me that their system is Let Brady Find The Right Guy
not a bad system..

if it is the system and not Brady how come DB wasn't successful?...how come Rohan Davey lasted two years?...why not start Flutie and save a bundle of cash?

[Ickybaluky]

Personally I think it is all the coordinators...

Oh, wait.

Nevermind.

[Ebenezer]

Personally I think it is all the coordinators...

Oh, wait.

Nevermind.
it's Vrabel...without him Brady is Todd Collins.

[Drive 4 Five]

Tom Brady a systems QB? Yeah right. Simply put, Tom Brady is the best QB in the game today. To hell with Manning, Roethlisberger, Dante Culpepper, whoever. The man is the best. He's one of the best to ever play the game period. I despise the Patriots as much as the next Bill's fan, but I'm not ignorant enough to sit here and say that he is what he is because of the coaches or the system or the players around him or whatever other excuse people want to use to put him down.

[Ebenezer]

:goodpost:

[L.A. Playa]

he is the best QB in the NFL but I still think he sold his soul to the Devil

[Drive 4 Five]

I'd take it a step further and say that Brady makes the Pats. The Pats would be a good team, but Brady is what separates them from everyone else.
Without Brady, I don't think the Pats win any of the Super Bowls, I really believe that. Other than Manning, there isn't another QB in the NFL who can do what he does as consistently as he does it.

I agree. As for Manning, I'd take Tom Brady over Peyon Manning any Ol' f**king day of the week.

[Drive 4 Five]

he is the best QB in the NFL but I still think he sold his soul to the Devil

You might be right. That MF'er. And can you imagine the pussy this man must get? Damn him. Damn him to hell.

[Mr. Cynical]

not a bad system..

if it is the system and not Brady how come DB wasn't successful?...how come Rohan Davey lasted two years?...why not start Flutie and save a bundle of cash?

You're now going to the extreme. Nobody here said "plug ANY QB in there and they will win." You still need a very good QB.

But my money says you take any other coach in this league with that roster and they don't win 3 SBs and be on the way to a 4th.

[Ebenezer]

You're now going to the extreme. Nobody here said "plug ANY QB in there and they will win." You still need a very good QB.

But my money says you take any other coach in this league with that roster and they don't win 3 SBs and be on the way to a 4th.
I disagree...Parcels, Gibbs, Dungy would have...Gruden wouldn't have because he would have broken up the team after they didn't make the playoffs...

[Typ0]

NE has had a tough season. They are healthier now and starting to play well the last month for the first time this season. Some of you people are acting like they already won the SB this year and Tom Brady is god.

JAX was not a playoff caliber team and it showed tonight on the field. NE would have had a much tougher game against Miami, KC or San Diego....three other teams capable of playing at a playoff level and better than JAX. The only reason JAX was there tonight is because they had a cup cake schedule. I wonder if feelings will be the same after NE gets trounced next week.

[Mr. Cynical]

I disagree...Parcels, Gibbs, Dungy would have...Gruden wouldn't have because he would have broken up the team after they didn't make the playoffs...
Parcells? How has he done with Dallas so far? I have no problem saying their roster *on paper* is basically as good as NE's. I'm sure you've heard this before but Parcells' major successes came when he had BB with him. I love Tuna, but it is a fact he hasn't been able to win the big one since the Giants when BB was his DC.

Gibbs? Maybe, but he hasn't won it yet since coming back so we can't say. We'll see.

Dungy? He has had all-pro players all over the joint for years and Polian as the GM. The Colts roster is far superior to NE's and he still hasn't made it.

Nobody has provided me with a compelling argument that BB is not the primary reason for their success.

[DaBills]

"Tom Brady a systems QB? Yeah right."

Problem is, we'll never know since BB is all he's had in the pros as a coach. I think I'm coming out on this here that he's a very good to great QB, but not on his own like Favre or Elway were. And that litmus test for me on that is, if you took away all the supporting talent these three had, and put in second stringers, which guy is going to do the most with the little he's given? And I'm sorry, but imo, that ain't Brady. It's an Elway or a Favre first.

He's very good, but just because you win SB's doesn't make you automatically great while your career is still going. So now, Brady = God? Isn’t part of being successful in the league the ability to run and stop the run, especially come playoff time? And no one thinks that since NE can do both very well, that that doesn't at least contribute in some part to Brady's success? Last time I looked, Brady wasn't playing on defense. Or is now busy helping Bruschi rescue those puppies.

Was Dilfer a great QB when the Ravens won the SB? Hell no, but he had a kick-ass D and they could run the ball, and he has a ring. Was Plunkett a great QB? Hell no. Scrappy maybe. But great? Was Phil Simms? Damn good. But you know what? He had a helluva coach and killer D and running game. Sound familiar?

Point is, you may be giving Brady too much credit as a great QB when maybe you should give as much to BB and the other talent on the team on defense AND offense. I hate Bruschi, Vrabel, Law, Milloy, etc, and all those other dudes when they were there. But I also recognize they are/were great players who had the fortune to have a great coach exploit their talents and make them even better.

Have some if you want, but I'm not drinking the kool-aid on Brady. He's a very good to great, consistent QB, like Aikman, with a very good OL. It wasn't long ago that the knock on Aikman was that all he did was have very good games. Not stellar numbers, but very good. Not flashy. And he too had the benefit of a great supporting staff and staff. Would anyone disagree? Now he's a god too? That has as much to do with team chemistry as anything too.

Not to mention, NE's line gives Brady 5-6 seconds. Even Bledsoe or RJ could complete a pass with that kind of time. And Leftwich had as much fire tonight as Brady. Especially limping. If Manning beats them and wins the SB, so much for greatness. Although I think this is Manning’s last chance because there's really no excuse anymore. He's got the Indy offensive system down, the other components are in place and he's heading for a showdown vs. NE in Indy. If he can't beat 'em then, then he never will.

And if Brady and the Pats make it back and win it all with all the injuries and player attrition they had this year, I'll still give credit to BB first. BB is blessed with a very good to great QB and Brady is blessed to have a great coach.

But none of that matters since we have neither. And isn’t that what counts most around here anyway? What will make the Bills great?

:afro:

[vicmantak]

The only thing I can say about Brady is that Patriots looks really awful when he doesn't play well.
In other words, he is a system QB and more... a lot more...

[Philagape]

BB certainly deserves a lot of credit for the Pats' success as a team, but not for Brady.

[X-Era]

Personally I think it is all the coordinators...

Oh, wait.

Nevermind.

Actually your FINALLY right on the money.

The reason that the Pats were able to take a group of nobodys and have them play like a team that can be multi SB winners was in fact due to having 3 head coaches on one team.

Weiss, Crennel, and Beli are ALL top notch head coaches on there own, but when they all are able to work together and OVER cover ALL the bases, you have a multi SB winner.

Call it fate, luck, whatever. But that group staying together that long was a MAJOR reason that they went more than once.

It is my belief that it has LITTLE if anything to do with the player components. Without those head coaches, the team looks much more like Arizona than a SB winner.

Its funny how BOTH Crennel and Weiss leave and this year the Pats look so very beatable.

Your arrogance towards them is about 3 weeks too premature. They wont survive to the SB, I GUARANTEE it. And when they dont, Weiss and Crennel will be the top answers as to why not.

As far as Brady, if he had any confidence in his supposed all pro talent, he would have held this team ransom for a MAJOR payday about 3 years ago which would have plummeted the team into mediocrity. However, deep down Brady himself has admitted that he doesnt think hes that good. He right. In several ESPN interviews the guy admits that this much. If he truly felt he was a top 5 QB, he and his agent would have demanded MUCH MUCH more, the Pats may have paid it, Harrison and other may never have been brought in, and the team would have went south faster than a Canadian goose in NY in January.

But, Bradys accurate assessment of his mediocrity forced him to take less of a contract and allow the Pats to continue to build their team. Add in the 3 head coach component, and years of no changes at these critical parts, and you have a multi year SB team.

Beli is smart enough to not try to run O, HC, and D himself next year. that EASILY could mean all new schemes or at leats terminology and last time I checked there are VERY few coords that could wipe Weiss or Crennels backsides in the league available for him to sign at this point. A major shift in their psuedo-power is coming very very fast.

Continue your worship of Brady, but remember what I have said here when he fails, its coming sooner than you think.

[John Doe]

Parcells? How has he done with Dallas so far? I have no problem saying their roster *on paper* is basically as good as NE's.


So, now you are saying that Drew Bledsoe is a top quality QB?

[That Guy]

Actually your FINALLY right on the money.

The reason that the Pats were able to take a group of nobodys and have them play like a team that can be multi SB winners was in fact due to having 3 head coaches on one team.

Weiss, Crennel, and Beli are ALL top notch head coaches on there own, but when they all are able to work together and OVER cover ALL the bases, you have a multi SB winner.

Call it fate, luck, whatever. But that group staying together that long was a MAJOR reason that they went more than once.

It is my belief that it has LITTLE if anything to do with the player components. Without those head coaches, the team looks much more like Arizona than a SB winner.

Its funny how BOTH Crennel and Weiss leave and this year the Pats look so very beatable.

Your arrogance towards them is about 3 weeks too premature. They wont survive to the SB, I GUARANTEE it. And when they dont, Weiss and Crennel will be the top answers as to why not.

As far as Brady, if he had any confidence in his supposed all pro talent, he would have held this team ransom for a MAJOR payday about 3 years ago which would have plummeted the team into mediocrity. However, deep down Brady himself has admitted that he doesnt think hes that good. He right. In several ESPN interviews the guy admits that this much. If he truly felt he was a top 5 QB, he and his agent would have demanded MUCH MUCH more, the Pats may have paid it, Harrison and other may never have been brought in, and the team would have went south faster than a Canadian goose in NY in January.

But, Bradys accurate assessment of his mediocrity forced him to take less of a contract and allow the Pats to continue to build their team. Add in the 3 head coach component, and years of no changes at these critical parts, and you have a multi year SB team.

Beli is smart enough to not try to run O, HC, and D himself next year. that EASILY could mean all new schemes or at leats terminology and last time I checked there are VERY few coords that could wipe Weiss or Crennels backsides in the league available for him to sign at this point. A major shift in their psuedo-power is coming very very fast.

Continue your worship of Brady, but remember what I have said here when he fails, its coming sooner than you think.

This doesn't even deserve a response.

[Mr. Cynical]

So, now you are saying that Drew Bledsoe is a top quality QB?

Last time I checked a roster had more than one person on it. Overall as a unit the teams' talent levels are not that far apart.

[John Doe]

Last time I checked a roster had more than one person on it. Overall as a unit the teams' talent levels are not that far apart.

Is Bledsoe a viable QB or not? If he is a millstone around a team's neck (as you would have us believe), then your argument does not appear to be valid.

[Mr. Cynical]

Is Bledsoe a viable QB or not? If he is a millstone around a team's neck (as you would have us believe), then your argument does not appear to be valid.

Sorry you are not following the logic. Re-read and try again. Conclusion: BB is the primary reason they are winning, not Brady.

[LtBillsFan66]

Brushi is the only reason Brady's good. ;)

Tom Brady is one of the best QBs I've seen in my lifetime.

It's embarrassing to see Bills fans try to argue that he's overrated. Denial is a *****, I know.

[Ebenezer]

Denial is a *****, I know.


It's just not a river in Egypt.

[Mr. Cynical]

It's not under-rating Brady to say BB is the primary reason for the Pats success.

[Ingtar33]

heh... sort of like saying Bill Walsh was the reason for the 49er's super bowl wins... it had nothing to do with a guy named Montana... or a receiver called Rice.

give 'em all their due.

BB is an above average coach without Brady who is an above average QB without BB. Pieces of the puzzle folks. Yes Brady is amazing, Yes BB deserves all or most of his accolades, however, neither would be multiple super bowl champs without the other. just like i doubt Jim Kelly would have been an NFL QB without his right arm.

To try to portion up praise, on just the parts and not the whole of their careers is not fair, nor is it possible. We can't determine how they would do apart.

Did Joe Montana ever win a superbowl without Bill Walsh and Jerry Rice?
How about Emmitt Smith, without Aikman or Irvin?
Laurence Taylor, without Pepper Johnson, Bill Parcels and Phil Simms?

Are they all system guys?

[FlyingElvis]

Calling Brady a "system QB" is obsolete by 4 years now.

The only season the "system" kept him under wraps was as a rookie when he dinked and dunked his way to a Super Bowl win with less than average offensive personel.

Anyone remember who the Pats receivers were in Super Bowl 36? Other than Troy Brown?

[gr8slayer]

Calling Brady a "system QB" is obsolete by 4 years now.
The only season the "system" kept him under wraps was as a rookie when he dinked and dunked his way to a Super Bowl win with less than average offensive personel.
Anyone remember who the Pats receivers were in Super Bowl 36? Other than Troy Brown?
David Patten

[FlyingElvis]

David PattenCharles Johnson and Shockmain Davis. All world beaters.

[gr8slayer]

Charles Johnson and Shockmain Davis. All world beaters.
That doesnt mean that he cant be a system QB.

Brady is just lucky enough to have a hell of an OL, good TE's, an above average Defense, and a great coaching staff. Aside from what Patriot fans may think, Tom Brady is not the second coming of Jesus Christ. He is not perfect, and will eventually lose in a playoff game. Looks like this week he may meet his match.

[footballhottie]

This is a very sore subject to me so i don't think i'll comment.

[Mr. Cynical]

heh... sort of like saying Bill Walsh was the reason for the 49er's super bowl wins... it had nothing to do with a guy named Montana... or a receiver called Rice.

give 'em all their due.

BB is an above average coach without Brady who is an above average QB without BB. Pieces of the puzzle folks. Yes Brady is amazing, Yes BB deserves all or most of his accolades, however, neither would be multiple super bowl champs without the other. just like i doubt Jim Kelly would have been an NFL QB without his right arm.

To try to portion up praise, on just the parts and not the whole of their careers is not fair, nor is it possible. We can't determine how they would do apart.

Did Joe Montana ever win a superbowl without Bill Walsh and Jerry Rice?
How about Emmitt Smith, without Aikman or Irvin?
Laurence Taylor, without Pepper Johnson, Bill Parcels and Phil Simms?

Are they all system guys?

Let me ask you this....do you consider Favre a system guy?

[FirstDownBills]

Let me ask you this....do you consider Favre a system guy?


No, Favre is what makes Green Bay. He makes everyone around him better. He's a 'do it on your own' QB. Brady is not a Favre type QB IMO.

[Spiderweb]

........ He may just try another team, or even worse pack it up and call it a short career Walter Payton style.

Your comments would have more validity if you hadn't added the comment about Payton. Tough to say he retired early when he played 13 seasons, 10 of which he carried the rock over 300 times, and retired as the NFL's all-time leader in rushing yardage (since broken by E.Smith sadly enough).

Walter Payton, unfortunately was retired early by God and has left us, but while here, he was the MAN. Class, character, unbelieveably hard worker, as well as extremely talented, all describe this most worthy of HOF status RB I've had the pleasure to have watched.

[DaBills]

For arguement's sake, put Favre, Brady or Peyton on the Cardinals right now. Who out of those three makes that team improve the most? They all will of course, but imo, it ain't Brady as my first choice.

[Mr. Cynical]

No, Favre is what makes Green Bay. He makes everyone around him better. He's a 'do it on your own' QB. Brady is not a Favre type QB IMO.

Bingo.

I think BB could still win with another very good QB, but Sherman IMO won't have half the success he had without Favre.

If you watch the games, it is not Brady making unbelievable throws to carry the team. He does throw it well - not taking that away from him - but the schemes are so damn good that any very good QB could thrive. And Brady doesn't play defense or special teams, which usually gives the offense great field position. All one need to do is look at the Jags game. That pooch punt turned into a TD because of the short field.

And furthermore BB is a genius with adjustments. Again, look at the Jags game. Brady was terrible in the first half but BB made adjustments to the scheme and Brady thrived in the second half.

[L.A. Playa]

The circumastances are what they are, Bill Belechik is Tom Brady's coach and thats not going to change, Tom Brady is teh best QB in the NFL right now, and the greates playoff QB in NFL history, the guy is undefeated in the playoffs in his career. Is he the only reason, no.

In sports where you play determines alot, as great as Michael Jordan was in the NBA would have he been as succesful in Portland had drafted him instead of Sam Bowie ?? Most likely NO, sometimes destiny and where you are drafted and the circumstances you end up determine your success as an athlete as much as your talent.

Tom Brady ended up in the perfect situation for his career, and is not a system QB, and regardless of how much anyone here hates him he is the best QB in the NFL as of now, but since he sold his soul to the Devil you can all have the last laugh eventually

[Mr. Cynical]

...but since he sold his soul to the Devil you can all have the last laugh eventually

:rofl:

[DaBills]

"In sports where you play determines alot, as great as Michael Jordan was in the NBA would have he been as succesful in Portland had drafted him instead of Sam Bowie ??"

Meaning Portland sucks so bad he wouldn't have made a difference? Sorry, but he would've been great no matter where he went – he didn't need to leave Chicago to play on a ****ty team. And in Portland, he would have done better being next to a Drexler and Kiki than even he did in Chicago. Look at that Bulls lineup that year - all of them were perrenial no-chancers for the HOF.

And Bowie was hurt more than Rob Johnson. Not to mention that he was outplayed by Drexler in the playoffs. Jordan lead the team in almost every category. He breaks his foot in the second season, misses 64 games and still leads them to the playoffs with only 30 wins. Then he puts up 63 on Bird in the playoffs. You gotta be kidding. Only one I can think of with a performance like that after being hurt and still hurt is TO and the Eagles last year, otherwise, the Eagles are done much sooner. (And TO is no Jordan, as much as he thinks he is.)

I'm sorry, but imo, Jordan's will and talent alone would overcome any team he was on, and he proved it on those early Bulls teams. Maybe the closet thing would be Barry Sanders in the NFL, or Archie Manning carrying a piss-poor Saints franchise, but Jordan transcended the sport. Has Sanders? Has Brady?

Like Magic said, there's Michael Jordan and then there is the rest of us. That's good enough for me.

:afro:

[L.A. Playa]

I think Michael Jordan is the greatest guard ever to play the game but the only transcending he did was create a generation of "me" first NBA players, not saying he was like that, but the overexposure of his slam dunks and individual scoring accomplisments, and not the greater aspects of his game, is what has created a watered down product today.

Jordan would no way in hell would have had the same kind of career in Portland, he would not have had the exposure he had in Chicago, nor would he have the ownership he had in Chicago with the $$ and mind power to build a winner around him.

Jordan would have led the league in scoring a couple of times, maybe, but no way in hell does he dominate the NBA the same way he does if selected by Portland.

Where you go determines and who your coach is determines alot more of what kind of player you are than your talent.

[DaBills]

CLANG.

A post hitting the rim.

;-p

It's all good tho. First off, the media made Jordan, as it does ALL supa stars. Do they play to the camera now more than ever? Oh hell yeah, they do. No arguement there. The culture of ESPN even sees to that from their "Jacked-up" hits of the week to their don't be hatin' jock-sniffin' love they show all players.

I won't fault Jordan just because he was shown flying through the air in his now famous pose, or made a household name thanks to Spike. But that's not his fault. Because if you do, then you gotta blame Dr. J for his windmill being everywhere. Or Broadway Joe Nameth being all over magazines and pointing his finger straight up.

But forgetting that, your point assumes Jordan would've had NO choice but to go to Portland and stay there forever. I don't buy it. Cream rises to the top and some owner or GM after seeing his numbers would've thrown together a massive 12-team trade to get him. They always do.

If not, why is Half-man Half-amazing not in Torotto anymore? Or the Rocket in Boston? Shaq in Orlando? It's about a chance to win a ring or it's about a phat contract. And if the money won't go the playa? Well, you know the rest of that story. But no one is locked in anywhere, anymore.

The ONLY guy I can think of that got totally screwed from moving on was Barry Sanders. A guy so good he'd rather quit than play for a loser like Detroit. Now there's an example of a guy who got screwed by his organization's commitment to losing.



"nor would he have the ownership he had in Chicago with the $$ and mind power to build a winner around him. "

The Bulls still made it to the playoffs their first year without money OR talent around him – that's the control group right there for my arguement. There probably couldn't have been a worse team for Jordan to start his career with. And usually top draft picks end up on ****ty teams, but again, cream rises to the top.

How can you say he wouldn't have done that as long he might have been in Portland? With Drexler next to him to boot? Other great players would've found their way to him eventually, as they usually do to winning teams.

Your point also assumes that Portland management was too hapless to get out of its own way and support the team and do what it takes to win, much like the Texans now. All I can say to that is the Bulls took 24 years to win their first championship. Portland did it in seven. While Bowie or Jordan were still in high school. Obviously Portland knew what it took with Dr. Jack Ramsay as coach and Bill Walton at center leading them.

:afro:

[That Guy]

Your comments would have more validity if you hadn't added the comment about Payton. Tough to say he retired early when he played 13 seasons, 10 of which he carried the rock over 300 times, and retired as the NFL's all-time leader in rushing yardage (since broken by E.Smith sadly enough).
Walter Payton, unfortunately was retired early by God and has left us, but while here, he was the MAN. Class, character, unbelieveably hard worker, as well as extremely talented, all describe this most worthy of HOF status RB I've had the pleasure to have watched.
I was just assuming he meant Barry Sanders or Jim Brown.

[Ingtar33]

eh... Farve a system guy?

I thought I was pretty clear I was pointing out that portioning off credit based on a player's team/coaching was impossible. And that to call a guy a system guy just because he had a good coach/teammate was both unfair and dismissive.

Its impossible to go back into history and re-write the story.

Brady helped lead the Pats down the field in the last minutes of two superbowls. He helped lead his team to 3 superbowl championships in 4 years. Who his coach was, who those individual teammates were, has nothing to do with that fact, and to factually claim another QB would have done it better, or that he wouldn’t have been able to do it as well without coach a, or player b, requires supernatural powers that man kind does not possess.

[Mr. Cynical]

eh... Farve a system guy?

I thought I was pretty clear I was pointing out that portioning off credit based on a player's team/coaching was impossible. And that to call a guy a system guy just because he had a good coach/teammate was both unfair and dismissive.

Its impossible to go back into history and re-write the story.

Brady helped lead the Pats down the field in the last minutes of two superbowls. He helped lead his team to 3 superbowl championships in 4 years. Who his coach was, who those individual teammates were, has nothing to do with that fact, and to factually claim another QB would have done it better, or that he wouldn’t have been able to do it as well without coach a, or player b, requires supernatural powers that man kind does not possess.

I guess we can agree to disagree on this one since we definitely see things differently.

It's all good tho. :peace: