I find this place to be amazing.

[Patrick76777]

I find this place to be amazing.

On one page of threads I see guys saying that Willis will never be great, Holcomb is terrible, Lindell can’t kick long and that we have so many needs. And at the same time, Losman keeps getting passes! This guy can do no wrong.

Schoop on the radio the other day wanted to cut Moulds and Adams and fire Mularkey because they gave Losman trouble.

It’s down right amazing!

A QB taken in the late first round and we want to cut half the team, fire the coaches and the GM who drafted him and spend 3 seasons with him at the helm, just to see if he can be good.

We’re sacrificing the entire team at the alter of bad QB’s!

Did New England have to clean house in order for Tom Brady to develop into a winning QB? The year Brady took over, New England was supposed to be terrible and started 0-2. Brady was lights out from game one! Our golden boy has had 4 good passes in 8 games and people just want to keep trotting him out there.

In fact, I’m going to get killed for writing this. But it’s a win now league. You can’t afford to let a QB take 2 years to learn how to play. Look at Detroit. The good teams go out and find someone. See Denver and Jake Plummer. If we pulled a Denver and got Plummer out of Arizona people here would have been jumping off buildings. But now Denver is the second seed in the AFC playoffs. Fine keep him around, but we need an insurance policy. And if we have to cash that policy in during training camp, so be it.

I just don’t get the double standard. Willis has a bad 2nd half in his first full year as a starter and he’s A. Smith but Losman looks terrible in 8 games and it’s just a matter of time before he develops into Payton Manning.

[OpIv37]

First, Willis has 1 injured year, 2 full years and 26 starts- JP has 1 injured year, 1 full year, and 8 starts at a more difficult position, so it's apples to oranges. Plus JP doesn't run his mouth.

Sam Adams can't get along with Mularkey and it has effects on the field. He's our best DT, but if he doesn't learn to play in the system he becomes a liability. I wouldn't mind cutting him, but only if a suitable replacement can be found.

What exactly did Moulds do over the past three seasons to make him so great? Yes, he's had to deal with struggling QB's but he hasn't been on top of his game for years. His numbers don't justify his salary and this team has too many needs to pay $9 million against the cap for 800 yards and 4 touchdowns. Other teams pay that much for players, but they're players with much better stats that don't cause sideline problems.

Yes, it's a win now league, but QB's take time to learn the game- look at Palmer and both Mannings. You can't just pull a quality QB out of your ass. Sometimes they're available in FA but usually they're not, so you have to suck it up.

And, don't forget that we were supposed to win in 05 despite JP- we won in 04 despite poor play by Bledsoe due to ST and D. That all went to hell when the D went to hell.

[Mr. Miyagi]

Are you suggesting Losman to be cut after starting less than a full season?

Sure Tom Brady didn't come in lights out from the start either, but yes he showed a lot of promise. But how many Tom Brady and Big Ben are there? If you're supposed to cut a QB after 8 games of not-so-glorious performance and start over with another guy, the league would go through quarterbacks season after season like FBH with used condoms.

Give JP a chance. If he stinks it up next season I wouldn't oppose to considering someone else.

[John Doe]

But it’s a win now league. You can’t afford to let a QB take 2 years to learn how to play.

Didn't Carson Palmer take 2 years?

[Patrick76777]

Guys, hold up!

1. I never said cut Losman
2. I didn’t make an argument for keeping any player or coach over another.

I simply commented on the double standard of play evaluation.

[OpIv37]

Pat, let me ask you this- what would you do about Buffalo's qb situation if you were Marv Levy? Keep in mind that, off the top of my head, the following teams have QB issues, so anything you do would be in competition with these teams:

Baltimore
NY Jets
Miami
New Orleans
Tampa Bay
Detriot
Washington (or they will soon- Brunell's old)
Chicago (arguably)
Cardinals

and arguably several others. So where to you expect to find your "win now" QB?

What I'm trying to say is that there is a good reason for your perceived double standard. Other positions are easier to fill, and if you can't fill them there are ways to compensate with systems, play design, play calling etc. QB is a key position and right now, there just aren't enough good ones.

[Mr. Miyagi]

Tampa Bay is good. They're behind Simms.

[TacklingDummy]

. So where to you expect to find your "win now" QB?

.


Not this Draft but the next one.

Let JP have next year. The Bills go 1-15 or 2-14 and we get the #1 pick and use it on the best QB available.

[OpIv37]

Tampa Bay is good. They're behind Simms.

well I'm sure that list could be debated with some additions and some subtractions. But any way you look at it, there's still at least 6-8 teams in need of a franchise QB, and there aren't enough NFL ready QB's available via FA or trade to fill all those slots (no drafted QB will be ready- Rothlisbergenheimenreinger is the exception and not the rule). If one or two do become available, the competition to get them will be stiff and most likely require a huge chunk of cap change or trading an entire draft to get them.

[TacklingDummy]

Didn't Carson Palmer take 2 years?

Yes thats a great example. Palmer has 2 good WRs a good RB and he gets the job done.

JP has 2 good WRs and a good RB but yet he blows. Even a journey backup QB (Holcomb) could put up decent numbers with the talent that was around him.

[OpIv37]

Yes thats a great example. Palmer has 2 good WRs a good RB and he gets the job done.
JP has 2 good WRs and a good RB but yet he blows. Even a journey backup QB (Holcomb) could put up decent numbers with the talent that was around him.

Willis is a good RB? How many games did he go without a TD or 100 yard game this season?

Moulds is a good receiver? 800 yards and 4 TD's? Don't forget he had 8 games of Holcomb throwing to him so you can't blame all of that low production on JP.

Sorry but the talent level that Palmer has is better than what JP has.

[Patrick76777]

Pat, let me ask you this- what would you do about Buffalo's qb situation if you were Marv Levy? Keep in mind that, off the top of my head, the following teams have QB issues, so anything you do would be in competition with these teams:

Baltimore
NY Jets
Miami
New Orleans
Tampa Bay
Detriot
Washington (or they will soon- Brunell's old)
Chicago (arguably)
Cardinals

and arguably several others. So where to you expect to find your "win now" QB?

What I'm trying to say is that there is a good reason for your perceived double standard. Other positions are easier to fill, and if you can't fill them there are ways to compensate with systems, play design, play calling etc. QB is a key position and right now, there just aren't enough good ones.

Don’t know! I’ve said before that I’d go out and try to find a guy that’s been a back up for a few years and bring him in. Maybe a Schaub or a Volek. Then I let him go head to head with JP. Best man wins. (and please don’t tell me about the availability of these guys, I’m speaking in generalities).

It’s Levy’s job to answer that question, not mine.


And I wouldn’t dream of cutting JP. But I think we should go into next year with someone who could surprise us if he got the job. Or if JP looked terrible after a couple games. But that’s a whole other issue,(and not the issue at hand so don’t bait me into it) how many bad games do we give the guy. Detroit gave Harrington way too long.


And one more thing. I don’t care who we are competing with. A good GM will make it happen!

[Patrick76777]

Willis is a good RB? How many games did he go without a TD or 100 yard game this season?
Moulds is a good receiver? 800 yards and 4 TD's? Don't forget he had 8 games of Holcomb throwing to him so you can't blame all of that low production on JP.
Sorry but the talent level that Palmer has is better than what JP has.
Yeah, too bad it went something like this

Holcomb’s 8 games 50 for 700 and 4TD’s
JP’s 8 games 10 for 100 and 0 TD’s


Made those numbers up, tongue in cheek. Can’t use those against me.

[Mr. Cynical]

Willis is a good RB? How many games did he go without a TD or 100 yard game this season?

Moulds is a good receiver? 800 yards and 4 TD's? Don't forget he had 8 games of Holcomb throwing to him so you can't blame all of that low production on JP.

Sorry but the talent level that Palmer has is better than what JP has.
Dear OpIv37,

Please stop feeding the troll. He's already too fat.

Thank you,

Zoo Management

[OpIv37]

Don’t know! I’ve said before that I’d go out and try to find a guy that’s been a back up for a few years and bring him in. Maybe a Schaub or a Volek. Then I let him go head to head with JP. Best man wins. (and please don’t tell me about the availability of these guys, I’m speaking in generalities).
It’s Levy’s job to answer that question, not mine.
And I wouldn’t dream of cutting JP. But I think we should go into next year with someone who could surprise us if he got the job. Or if JP looked terrible after a couple games. But that’s a whole other issue,(and not the issue at hand so don’t bait me into it) how many bad games do we give the guy. Detroit gave Harrington way too long.
And one more thing. I don’t care who we are competing with. A good GM will make it happen!

I wouldn't be opposed to a camp competition and wish we had that this year. My only objection is that the longer JP sits on the bench, the less we know about whether or not he will ever be our guy. But the goal is to win and if someone else gives us a better chance so be it.

As far as a good GM making it happen, I don't know if I agree with that. Making it happen at the expense of salary cap jail or trading away an entire draft isn't usually worth it. Or to put it another way, a good GM will balance the need to get a player with the price they have to pay for that player. We don't want to end up like the Titans and have to cut six starters to get under the cap.

[Patrick76777]

Willis is a good RB? How many games did he go without a TD or 100 yard game this season?
Moulds is a good receiver? 800 yards and 4 TD's? Don't forget he had 8 games of Holcomb throwing to him so you can't blame all of that low production on JP.
Sorry but the talent level that Palmer has is better than what JP has.
Willis was the 3rd leading rusher in the NFL after 8 weeks. His downturn coincided with the reassertion of JP into the lineup and our falling out of playoff contention. The whole team’s play slipped at just about the same time.

[The_Philster]

Dear OpIv37,

Please stop feeding the troll. He's already too fat.

Thank you,

Zoo Management
:spit:

[Patrick76777]

I wouldn't be opposed to a camp competition and wish we had that this year. My only objection is that the longer JP sits on the bench, the less we know about whether or not he will ever be our guy. But the goal is to win and if someone else gives us a better chance so be it.
.


And that's all I'm asking for!

[OpIv37]

Willis was the 3rd leading rusher in the NFL after 8 weeks. His downturn coincided with the reassertion of JP into the lineup and our falling out of playoff contention. The whole team’s play slipped at just about the same time.
how can you blame JP for Willis' lack of production? The O line or play calling I would understand to a point (if you look at Willis' play and his YPC, it's obvious that a lot of it was him too).

I don't like guys who don't play hard even though they're out of it. At one point after the KC game, JP looked like the only guy who still cared out there.

[Patrick76777]

how can you blame JP for Willis' lack of production? The O line or play calling I would understand to a point (if you look at Willis' play and his YPC, it's obvious that a lot of it was him too).
I don't like guys who don't play hard even though they're out of it. At one point after the KC game, JP looked like the only guy who still cared out there.


I didn’t overtly say that! I just said it coincided with his reassertion to the line up.


Maybe it’s true. Maybe the players don’t like him.

[TacklingDummy]

Willis is a good RB? How many games did he go without a TD or 100 yard game this season?
Moulds is a good receiver? 800 yards and 4 TD's? Don't forget he had 8 games of Holcomb throwing to him so you can't blame all of that low production on JP.
Sorry but the talent level that Palmer has is better than what JP has.


Most of McGahee's and Moulds production this year was when Holcomb started.

Their level of play decreased when Losman started. I wonder what the problem was.

How much better would of Moulds, Evans, McGahee numbers would of been with a whole year of playing with a journey backup QB compared to our starters?

Our offense sucked because the leader of the offense sucked.

[TacklingDummy]

Dear OpIv37,

Please stop feeding the troll. He's already too fat.

Thank you,

Zoo Management


Don't you have anything better to do then to harass me?

[Mr. Miyagi]

Most of McGahee's and Moulds production this year was when Holcomb started.

Their level of play decreased when Losman started. I wonder what the problem was.

How much better would of Moulds, Evans, McGahee numbers would of been with a whole year of playing with a journey backup QB compared to our starters?

Our offense sucked because the leader of the offense sucked.
Our journeyman backup QB has over 10 years of experience, including starting experience with other teams.

Our "sucky" leader had a broken leg and 8 games of experience.

Compare that.

[lordofgun]

I'm really glad you're not the GM, Pat!

[RedEyE]

I agree with Pat on some things, and mostly not on others.

[Mr. Miyagi]

I agree with Pat on some things, and mostly not on others.
I wish you'd stop boring us with all the specifics. :down:

[John Doe]

Yes thats a great example. Palmer has 2 good WRs a good RB and he gets the job done.
JP has 2 good WRs and a good RB but yet he blows. Even a journey backup QB (Holcomb) could put up decent numbers with the talent that was around him.

Carson Palmer took 2 years to develop. You are comparing Palmers' third year to Losman's 2nd truncated year.

[Philagape]

There should be a double standard for QBs. That's common sense.

[FlyingDutchman]

how can you blame JP for Willis' lack of production? The O line or play calling I would understand to a point (if you look at Willis' play and his YPC, it's obvious that a lot of it was him too)

JP wasnt able to complete much so teams were putting 8 people in the box. I understand what youre saying but its a cycle of bad things that leads to no production. JP cant complete much bc the o-line sucks and isnt giving him time which leads lack of production from Willis who has to deal with a crappy line as well that is usually overloaded by blitzing defensemen who were putting pressure on our unproductive QB. And around and around it went.

[X-Era]

Guys, hold up!

1. I never said cut Losman
2. I didn’t make an argument for keeping any player or coach over another.

I simply commented on the double standard of play evaluation.

Yeah good call, your right, there is no difference between being a QB and being a RB.

RB's need to think? They basically go out and use their instincts.

QB is very cerebral and take years to dvelop the correct reads.

Your comparing apples and oranges.

Furthermore, what exactly did we try to do the last decade as far as QB's go? So the slew of mediocre or even better QB's that didnt get it done here proved nothing to you? You mkean you have some guy thats SO much better than all those guys that can just be plugged in here and deliver a playoff trip?

You must be a genius, 2 GM's, and 3 Head Coaches couldnt do it, but apparently you can.

Ive said time and time again, that nothing short of the second coming of Kelly will take this team to the SB or even playoffs. Im not willing to waste anymore years on mediocre vets who cant play.

Develop our own, or make some monsterous trade for a proven playoff or SB QB.

[jmb1099]

Most of McGahee's and Moulds production this year was when Holcomb started.
Their level of play decreased when Losman started. I wonder what the problem was.
How much better would of Moulds, Evans, McGahee numbers would of been with a whole year of playing with a journey backup QB compared to our starters?
Our offense sucked because the leader of the offense sucked.
You really can't be this clueless. So now the poor play on defense was also Losman's fault? So WM can't run, the defense can't stop people from running, and our "quality" receivers drop passes and somehow this is all Losman's fault? Why not blame him for global warming, the mideast crisis, JFK, world hunger, rising taxes, unemployment rate, incurable diseases, rising mortage rates, and potholes on Main St? Stop posting, your making the other trolls look better.

[jmb1099]

Dear OpIv37,

Please stop feeding the troll. He's already too fat.

Thank you,

Zoo Management
OMG! Funniest post of the week!

[Patrick76777]

I'm really glad you're not the GM, Pat!


Me too! I couldn't deal with the media!


Anyway, I'm only commenting on this board! I didn't ask to cut anybody!

[Patrick76777]

Carson Palmer took 2 years to develop. You are comparing Palmers' third year to Losman's 2nd truncated year.


I see we've stopped with the Eli Manning comparisons!


Didn't Carson and Eli get taken 1 overall?

[Patrick76777]

Yeah good call, your right, there is no difference between being a QB and being a RB.

RB's need to think? They basically go out and use their instincts.

QB is very cerebral and take years to dvelop the correct reads.

Your comparing apples and oranges.




I didn't say that either! I never directly compared any 2 positions. My point is that this place is cut crazy. Every time any player has a bad year everyone wants to cut him or bench him. But JP gets pass after pass. That being said I’ve NEVER said that we should cut him. In fact I’ve said that he should be given the opportunity to earn the starting job. But I have a hard time believing that you need play this guy at all costs so that he can learn to be good. Why sacrifice players, management, coaches and seasons in the hope that one player may be good in 3 years.


Not every QB taken in the first round turns out to be good. And for every Eli Manning and Carson Palmer I hear about I can mention an Akilli Smith or Ryan Leaf, 2 guys who were never good. Or a Joey Harrington or a Patrick Ramsey who wasted years and never got it. Or I can mention Tom Brady or Daunte Culpepper 2 guys who had success from day one.

My main point in this thread was the double standard in player evaluation. I fully understand that QB’s and RB’s must be evaluated on different levels. But this place takes it to outrageous levels. We want to cut everybody.

A second point borne of this thread is that I don’t think we should attach out cart to one horse. Let’s get another horse in here so that if in week 5, if we’re been served with 5 more JP specials, 7-18 for 105 yards and 1 INT, we have an option.

[THATHURMANATOR]

First, Willis has 1 injured year, 2 full years and 26 starts- JP has 1 injured year, 1 full year, and 8 starts at a more difficult position, so it's apples to oranges. Plus JP doesn't run his mouth.

Sam Adams can't get along with Mularkey and it has effects on the field. He's our best DT, but if he doesn't learn to play in the system he becomes a liability. I wouldn't mind cutting him, but only if a suitable replacement can be found.

What exactly did Moulds do over the past three seasons to make him so great? Yes, he's had to deal with struggling QB's but he hasn't been on top of his game for years. His numbers don't justify his salary and this team has too many needs to pay $9 million against the cap for 800 yards and 4 touchdowns. Other teams pay that much for players, but they're players with much better stats that don't cause sideline problems.

Yes, it's a win now league, but QB's take time to learn the game- look at Palmer and both Mannings. You can't just pull a quality QB out of your ass. Sometimes they're available in FA but usually they're not, so you have to suck it up.

And, don't forget that we were supposed to win in 05 despite JP- we won in 04 despite poor play by Bledsoe due to ST and D. That all went to hell when the D went to hell.
I will have to agree with OP on this one...

[THATHURMANATOR]

Yes thats a great example. Palmer has 2 good WRs a good RB and he gets the job done.
JP has 2 good WRs and a good RB but yet he blows. Even a journey backup QB (Holcomb) could put up decent numbers with the talent that was around him.
Jesus christ man. Was palmer good in his first 8 starts with 2 good receivers and a good rb? Your ****ing unbelievable...

[THATHURMANATOR]

Pat I don't think anyone here is ever bashing Moulds or even wants him to be cut at all but at his age 9-11 million is just ridiculous. I want him to restructure to stay badly but I just don't see it happening... Does Moss or Steve smith make 9-11 in a season?

[Patrick76777]

Pat I don't think anyone here is ever bashing Moulds or even wants him to be cut at all but at his age 9-11 million is just ridiculous. I want him to restructure to stay badly but I just don't see it happening... Does Moss or Steve smith make 9-11 in a season?
Sure I want Moulds to stay. And it goes without saying that he’d need to restructure his deal in order for that to happen. I just think it’s a necessity to get the restructuring done.


But that’s not what I’m talking about in this thread. I’m speaking in generalities here. This board is cut crazy. And yes, there’s a huge contingent here who wants Moulds and Adams and Clements gone for that matter! And I’m not getting into Salary cap discussions. I understand the reality of the cap and I understand that moves need to be made and deals need to be reasonable. But efforts must be made.

[THATHURMANATOR]

I do want them to figure a way to keep Nate but I want to see how much he is getting offered.

[SquishDaFish]

Jp needs this next FULL year starting with players who are willing to PLAY and not Cry with him so he can get his experience. On average it takes 2-3 years of playing time to dertermine if a QB is going to be good in this league. What every Bills fan should be complaining and crying about is the 2 areas of NEED that have been overlooked and not cared about since the SB years and that first the OLINE and then the DLINE! We havent had an OL with Probowlers on it since SB years. Thats what we should all focus on and not this damn QB talk that everyone keeps bringing up!! say it with me TRENCHES!!!!

[Patrick76777]

Jp needs this next FULL year starting with players who are willing to PLAY and not Cry with him so he can get his experience. On average it takes 2-3 years of playing time to dertermine if a QB is going to be good in this league. What every Bills fan should be complaining and crying about is the 2 areas of NEED that have been overlooked and not cared about since the SB years and that first the OLINE and then the DLINE! We havent had an OL with Probowlers on it since SB years. Thats what we should all focus on and not this damn QB talk that everyone keeps bringing up!! say it with me TRENCHES!!!!

On average it takes 2-3 years of playing time to dertermine if a QB is going to be good in this league.


Was this in the QB owner’s manual we got when we drafted Losman?


I find hard to believe that you’ve got to give every QB, 3 seasons as starter in order for him to turn into a good player! This is a professional league. You can’t waste 3 years hoping a guy learns how to play without a contingency plan.


Again, to reiterate for our slower posters, I’m not advocating the cutting or even the benching of Losman. I’m advocating bringing in another QB who can push Losman and force Losman to earn the starting QB job. If Losman can beat out the other QB, then he deserves the job. If he can’t in his 3rd year in the league, injury or not, he doesn’t deserve the job.

[SquishDaFish]

Look at the history of the NFL it takes 2-3 years for almost every QB either riding the pine or experience and the ones that get the experience are usually the better ones in the long run. Even every other position it is rare for a youngster to come in and dominate and take over the game. The QB is the tougher position so it TAKES TIME!

[gr8slayer]

Was this in the QB owner’s manual we got when we drafted Losman?
I find hard to believe that you’ve got to give every QB, 3 seasons as starter in order for him to turn into a good player! This is a professional league. You can’t waste 3 years hoping a guy learns how to play without a contingency plan.
Again, to reiterate for our slower posters, I’m not advocating the cutting or even the benching of Losman. I’m advocating bringing in another QB who can push Losman and force Losman to earn the starting QB job. If Losman can beat out the other QB, then he deserves the job. If he can’t in his 3rd year in the league, injury or not, he doesn’t deserve the job.
The freaking guy hasnt had three years as a starter. Hell, he hasnt even had one year as a starter.

[Patrick76777]

The freaking guy hasnt had three years as a starter. Hell, he hasnt even had one year as a starter.


Did you even read what you quoted me on?

[THATHURMANATOR]

Again, to reiterate for our slower posters, I’m not advocating the cutting or even the benching of Losman. I’m advocating bringing in another QB who can push Losman and force Losman to earn the starting QB job. If Losman can beat out the other QB, then he deserves the job. If he can’t in his 3rd year in the league, injury or not, he doesn’t deserve the job.
This I am totally fine with!

[LtBillsFan66]

Willis is a good RB? How many games did he go without a TD or 100 yard game this season?

Moulds is a good receiver? 800 yards and 4 TD's? Don't forget he had 8 games of Holcomb throwing to him so you can't blame all of that low production on JP.

Sorry but the talent level that Palmer has is better than what JP has.
How many games did he get less than 20 carries?

[LtBillsFan66]

I couldn't agree more with the premise of this thread.

[Bill Cody]

Not this Draft but the next one.

Let JP have next year. The Bills go 1-15 or 2-14 and we get the #1 pick and use it on the best QB available.

I think that's going to be Troy Smith, OSU (with apologies to Brady Quinn fans). This year was just a partial blood letting. Next year we fill the tub, including Kevin Costner. That's why we should concentrate on DL and OL in this draft. It will make for a shorter rebuilding once JP has been given bus fare.