Is Josh Reed the Real Deal?

[RedEyE]

I have been thinking about this for several days now, and I'm not so sure if I'm sold on Josh Reed taking over the second receiver slot if Peerless leaves next season. Reed seems to have created waves as a rookie, posting 37 receptions for 514 yards and 2 TDs. While I will agree that those are fine numbers for a rookie other things should be taken into consideration before just handing him the position?

Let's be serious for a moment; Playing underneath/across the middle while Price and Moulds are both spreading out the secondary downfield is hardly an accomplishment. Both Price and Moulds were drawing double teams all season. D-Cos obviously prepared and secondaries were spooked into preventing the long ball. With Henry or Centers out of the back field, and/or Moore and Reimersma releasing off the line from the TE slot, Reed is automatically found "softly" covered out in front. This would also increase Reed's yards after the run when left one on one and tacklers spread thin.

Which brings up my second point. Buffalo relied on the pass to open the run for most of the season. Considering this and as many times as Drew went to the air, I'm really suprised that Reed didn't find the ball more often. Why is that? Perhaps he wasn't finding the holes necessary to make the plays. Possibly giving into D covers rather then sifting through them? Forcing Drew to throw down field?

I guess what I'm saying is the talent of the Bills O was probabaly enabling Reed to shine. I think that the Bills could have challenged Reed's abilities more this past season. With the exception of the game against Minnesota, I can't think of another game that Reed really stood out as a starter.

Without Price, Moulds instantly becomes the only deep threat on the team. Reed's height (5-10) obviously keeps him pinned to routes across the middle and on the inner flats. I think if Reed is going to work in Buffalo, another half~way decent reciever has to be signed (Doubtful Charles Johnson being that reciever.) The pressure on Reed is going to be even greater this upcoming season if the Bills lose both JayR and PP. The less threats involved in the scheme, the more Drew will have to rely on his two primary WRs to get it done. So do you think that Josh Reed could be a true 2nd WR?




:feedback:

[Romes]

Interesting point. To me it is unknown how well Josh will do in his career. One question I have. If it is true that Price and Moulds were really opening up the middle so much. Why then did out TE (especially JR) hardly get any catches?

Also, Reed did much better in his rookie season than either Moulds or Price. Its a legitamate (sp?) concern but I would not be too worried. From all accounts Reed is a very solid receiver.

[venis2k1]

The only thing keeping reed from being a future #1 WR IMO is his lack of speed. He runs great routes, and he runs hard. He is tough after the catch, and he has good hands.

[RedEyE]

Originally posted by CalBillsFan
. One question I have. If it is true that Price and Moulds were really opening up the middle so much. Why then did out TE (especially JR) hardly get any catches?



Good question. I can't beleive that all of the Bills receivers were failing to adjust to the blitz. Perhaps Drew wasn't reading blitzes appropriatley or perhaps he truly had trouble locating the soft covered man?

[Romes]

Originally posted by RedEyE

Good question. I can't beleive that all of the Bills receivers were failing to adjust to the blitz. Perhaps Drew wasn't reading blitzes appropriatley or perhaps he truly had trouble locating the soft covered man?

Sorry, I should have made it clear when i said JR i ment Jay Riemersma. Reed was the only one really getting open over the middle (besides Moulds and Price).

[4thAndLong]

Thats true, but in this offense the 3rd receiver wasn't on the field too much...This isn't Oakland where Porter is involved in alot.

[kgun12]

The same things were said about ANDRE Reed out of little Kunztown St. he was slow to small to due anything else but go over the middle. JOSH is no Andre, YET!

Prior to the draft last year Bill Polin was asked about Josh Reed, he said Andre Reed without the attitude.

[kgun12]

Besides his a ROOKIE! He is suppose to have trouble reading Defenses.

[MissBuffalo]

IMO Josh is going to be a very solid and capable 2nd WR if Price leaves. I was shocked when we drafted him, but I think he's got the talent. I agree venis, he does lack speed, so he won't be as explosive after the catch as Price.

[kgun12]

Originally posted by MissBuffalo
IMO Josh is going to be a very solid and capable 2nd WR if Price leaves. I was shocked when we drafted him, but I think he's got the talent. I agree venis, he does lack speed, so he won't be as explosive after the catch as Price.

Miss Buffalo J. Reed had one of the highest yards after catch averages in College his senior year.

[Tatonka]

josh reed reminds me completely of hines ward..

just because he is small and runs a 4.5 doesnt mean he cant get open deep... ward is a perfect example... if you break a dbs ankles when you come out of your cut, you are going to get open. good receivers dont just run a straight line down the field. they set up the fake slant or fake out/post, then turn it up field. josh can do that. and he is gonna be a beast to bring down afterwards

i am seriously not worried about him starting.. not at all.

[TypicalBill]

2001 SEASON
Biletnikoff Award winner, given to the nation's top receiver … First-team All-America pick by The NFL Draft Report, Walter Camp, Associated Press, Football Writers Association, CNNSI.com, ABC Sports online, Collegefootballnews.com and The Sporting News, adding second-team honors from Football News … All-Bowl Team choice by Sports Illustrated … Consensus All-Southeastern Conference first-team selection … Named Louisiana Offensive Player of the Year by the Louisiana Sports Writers Association … Set school and SEC season records with 1,740 yards receiving … Established school season records with 94 receptions (18.5 avg) and 10 games with at least 100 yards receiving … Scored seven touchdowns … Also gained 7 yards on a pair of reverses … Had five kickoff returns for 108 yards (21.6 avg) and two punt returns for 5 yards (2.5 avg).

Tulane - Opened the season with 135 yards on 6 catches and 17 yards on a kickoff return.

Utah State - Snatched 5 passes for 124 yards.

Tennessee - Grabbed 7 passes for 125 yards and a 30-yard score.

Florida - Made 6 catches for 123 yards.

Kentucky - Amassed 160 yards on 8 receptions and 16 yards on a kickoff return.

Mississippi State - Hauled in 10 passes for 146 yards, including touchdowns of 13 and 22 yards.

Mississippi - Held under 100 yards, finishing with 85 yards on 3 catches and 35 yards on a kickoff return.

Middle Tennessee - Had 9 receptions for 120 yards.

Alabama - Set school and SEC single-game records with 19 catches for 293 yards and a 25-yard touchdown, topping the old school marks of 14 grabs by Wendell Davis vs. Mississippi in 1986 and Todd Kinchen's 248 yards vs. Mississippi State in 1991, and surpassed the SEC record of 269 yards by Kentucky's Craig Yeast in 1998 … Added 40 yards on a pair of kickoff returns.

Arkansas - Gained 183 yards on 7 catches with touchdowns of 20 and 38 yards.

Auburn - Made 10 catches for 186 yards and a 17-yard score.

Tennessee (SEC Championship) - Held to under 100 yards for only the second time in 2001, as he grabbed 4 passes for 60 yards.

Illinois (Sugar Bowl) - Closed out his career in explosive fashion, setting bowl records with 14 receptions for 239 yards and touchdowns of 5 and 32 yards … He broke the old mark of nine catches that he had in the 2000 Peach Bowl, along with Wendell Davis (vs. South Carolina, 1987 Gator Bowl) and Andy Hamilton (vs. Nebraska, 1971 Orange Bowl) and the previous record of 165 yards by Hamilton (vs. Iowa State, 1971 Sun Bowl).


i think he can take over the 2nd WR spot.

[JJamezz]

Nice job TB - I was going to post in this thread last night, but I was too PO'd at the topic and some of the comments in here - I didn't want to say anything I'd regret.. :biggrin:

Your post pretty much sums it up.

[Dozerdog]

Yes- he is the real deal

[WG]

I agree Dozer. GREAT thread BTW. Outstanding content & Good critiques.

RE,

"Playing underneath/across the middle while Price and Moulds are both spreading out the secondary downfield is hardly an accomplishment."

The same could be said about Price however w/ all the options we had short as well. Yet he didn't always step up big.

Reed:

Pros:

Oustanding hands. When the ball hits them they're like glue.

ATC yards are his forte.

Was touted as the SECs most prolific receiver ever by some.

May not have top speed but his quickness and agility both before and after the catch more than make up for that.

Is much tougher to take down than any WRs we have and as tough as many RBs.


This guy's gonna be fine.

Price is way overrated. He won't catch more balls next year no matter where he goes. He'll be cryin' and complaining that he's being held, interfered with, etc. He'll draw more PF penalties b/c he's gonna be doubled a lot depending upon where he goes, and he'll get frustrated b/c he isn't the type of WR who can be a #1 w/o a Moulds across from him and an outstanding offense around him. If that were not the case, then he would have "broken out" sooner.

Bledsoe only threw to 3 WRs this year. Reed is very much like Troy Brown in style but better in terms of talent. Brady made much more use of Brown than Bledsoe ever did, so perhaps we'll have to take a look at the O and change some things to ensure we utilize Reed more. He can go deep just fine BTW. He did it several times this year.

Everyone will feel better next year when Price struggles somewhere else like Washington while Reed outperforms Price.

[Bert102176]

I feel we lose Price then we are up ****s creek, cause with out Moulds and Price to take most of the coverage men away by both being double covered Reed may be good but our Offense will faulter and big time.

[WG]

I wouldn't worry about it Bert. Even minus Price we still have one of the league's best offenses on paper. Drew will have to make due w/ the league's most prolific receiving RB in history, Moulds, Reed, and Henry running the ball. If he can't deal with those, then he isn't that good. That's plenty and more than most QBs have.

Besides, I'm tellin' ya, all this worry over Price isn't going to matter. Don't sweat it. There are quite a few WRs available.

We should go after Darrell Jackson. The guys totally underrated. He's got speed too. If we can get a WR like him we'll be even better off than we were this year. He wouldn't cost an arm and a leg either. Presumably around $2M/ssn.

[RedEyE]

Originally posted by Kgun12
.....Reed had one of the highest yards after catch averages in College his senior year.


Originally posted byTypicalBill
2001 SEASON
Biletnikoff Award winner, given to the nation's top receiver … First-team All-America pick by The NFL Draft Report, Walter Camp, Associated Press, Football Writers Association, CNNSI.com, ABC Sports online, Collegefootballnews.com and The Sporting News, adding second-team honors from Football News … All-Bowl Team choice by Sports Illustrated … Consensus All-Southeastern Conference first-team selection … Named Louisiana Offensive Player of the Year by the Louisiana Sports Writers Association … Set school and SEC season records with 1,740 yards receiving … Established school season records with 94 receptions (18.5 avg) and 10 games with at least 100 yards receiving … Scored seven touchdowns … Also gained 7 yards on a pair of reverses … Had five kickoff returns for 108 yards (21.6 avg) and two punt returns for 5 yards (2.5 avg).

Tulane - Opened the season with 135 yards on 6 catches and 17 yards on a kickoff return.

Utah State - Snatched 5 passes for 124 yards.

Tennessee - Grabbed 7 passes for 125 yards and a 30-yard score.

Florida - Made 6 catches for 123 yards.

Kentucky - Amassed 160 yards on 8 receptions and 16 yards on a kickoff return.

Mississippi State - Hauled in 10 passes for 146 yards, including touchdowns of 13 and 22 yards.

Mississippi - Held under 100 yards, finishing with 85 yards on 3 catches and 35 yards on a kickoff return.

Middle Tennessee - Had 9 receptions for 120 yards.

Alabama - Set school and SEC single-game records with 19 catches for 293 yards and a 25-yard touchdown, topping the old school marks of 14 grabs by Wendell Davis vs. Mississippi in 1986 and Todd Kinchen's 248 yards vs. Mississippi State in 1991, and surpassed the SEC record of 269 yards by Kentucky's Craig Yeast in 1998 … Added 40 yards on a pair of kickoff returns.

Arkansas - Gained 183 yards on 7 catches with touchdowns of 20 and 38 yards.

Auburn - Made 10 catches for 186 yards and a 17-yard score.

Tennessee (SEC Championship) - Held to under 100 yards for only the second time in 2001, as he grabbed 4 passes for 60 yards.

Illinois (Sugar Bowl) - Closed out his career in explosive fashion, setting bowl records with 14 receptions for 239 yards and touchdowns of 5 and 32 yards … He broke the old mark of nine catches that he had in the 2000 Peach Bowl, along with Wendell Davis (vs. South Carolina, 1987 Gator Bowl) and Andy Hamilton (vs. Nebraska, 1971 Orange Bowl) and the previous record of 165 yards by Hamilton (vs. Iowa State, 1971 Sun Bowl).


Great points, but I'm not concerned with his abilities as a collegiate level player. He's proved that. There are several thousand players that posted great numbers in college only to be NFL flunkies. What things have you seen this season that fortify your beliefs that Reed can handle the position?

[RedEyE]

Originally posted by Tatonka
josh reed reminds me completely of hines ward..

just because he is small and runs a 4.5 doesnt mean he cant get open deep... ward is a perfect example... if you break a dbs ankles when you come out of your cut, you are going to get open. good receivers dont just run a straight line down the field. they set up the fake slant or fake out/post, then turn it up field. josh can do that. and he is gonna be a beast to bring down afterwards

i am seriously not worried about him starting.. not at all.

Interesting comparisson. I certainly hope he can be as successful as Ward has been.

[RedEyE]

Originally posted by JJamezz
Nice job TB - I was going to post in this thread last night, but I was too PO'd at the topic and some of the comments in here - I didn't want to say anything I'd regret.. :biggrin:

Your post pretty much sums it up.

My apologies if I offended you in any way, old great and wise film maker. Seriously though ~ this is obviously a hot topic of conversation for you (got your blood pumping). Could you give me some examples of Reed's abilities (professional level accomplishments) that makes you strongly believe he could score big in the NFL?

[Tatonka]

well.. he was only called upon to come through in one game.. against the vikings... he put up about 140 yards and a crucial TD...

and i dont remember a single dropped pass... drew looked to him on important 3rd downs several times. and he always came through.

add that to the impressive college career and i think we have a winner..

would you rather he rot on the bench until he is in the last year of his contract, so he can put up great numbers for one year before he becomes a ufa? i would rather see us use him now!

[JJamezz]

:lol:

To be honest, part of the reason I said I was PO'd is that there is no way to prove your concerns wrong at this point... You ask for professional level accomplishments, which are obviously impossible to provide! He had a better 1st year than PP statistically, but not by much.

I don't know man, I can only go by what I saw of him in college - I'm not a big NCAA fan by any stretch, but I was when LSU was on the TV. This guy is a RARE talent.

He lacks PP's speed, but IMO has him beat out in many other areas - route running, hands, his ability after the catch, temperment, smarts and just football 'intangibles' - he really seems to have a feel for the game that is incredible.

But as you alluded to (and rightfully so), its all useless until he puts it together in the NFL.

And don't get me wrong, I like PP, but my problem w/ him is that I can't shake the memories of stupid penalties, and prior to this season, the seemingly endless dropped balls... One breakout season to his other 3 mediocre ones - prior to this season he could arguably have been labeled a bust.

I'm all for keeping him around, but not at the price (no pun intended :D) he's going to command from teams desperate at WR... And I really think he will struggle GREATLY as the #1 guy in a different type of offense.

Maybe I'm just pissed that he decided to have his breakout during the final year of his deal...

[RedEyE]

Originally posted by Tatonka
well.. he was only called upon to come through in one game.. against the vikings... he put up about 140 yards and a crucial TD...

and i dont remember a single dropped pass... drew looked to him on important 3rd downs several times. and he always came through.

add that to the impressive college career and i think we have a winner..

would you rather he rot on the bench until he is in the last year of his contract, so he can put up great numbers for one year before he becomes a ufa? i would rather see us use him now!

First off let me preface by saying that my previous/current statements and questions are completely sincere, and I approach without condescending tone.

I would have liked to have seen him used more in the postion Price currently owns. Like Randle El was used in Pittsburgh. The Steelers would set Ward or Burress on the bench for a play or two to further analyze Randle El's abilties. Don't get me wrong, I think that Reed has the talent to play the game. I'm just curious how "everyone" can instantly turn him into a star without seeing him truly preform.

[HotRod]

Originally posted by JJamezz
:lol:

He lacks PP's speed, but IMO has him beat out in many other areas - route running, hands, his ability after the catch, temperment, smarts and just football 'intangibles' - he really seems to have a feel for the game that is incredible.

But as you alluded to (and rightfully so), its all useless until he puts it together in the NFL.

And don't get me wrong, I like PP, but my problem w/ him is that I can't shake the memories of stupid penalties, and prior to this season, the seemingly endless dropped balls... One breakout season to his other 3 mediocre ones - prior to this season he could arguably have been labeled a bust.

I'm all for keeping him around, but not at the price (no pun intended :D) he's going to command from teams desperate at WR... And I really think he will struggle GREATLY as the #1 guy in a different type of offense.

I really agree with this! It was frustrating when defenses would be able to get to Peerless, and cause him to lose whatever he had just gained ...... and then some.

[Typ0]

There are a lot of good points being made in this thread. Mentally it's a lot different to be a second WR and be on the field all the time than it is to only get the limited opps Reed got last season. That will be a big shift for him and there are no guarantees. I think Reed can do it but it would also be wise to bring in another capable receiver and let those two duke it out for playing time. Even if they are both a bust it can be the Eric Moulds show. We should let Price and Riemersma go and bring in another capable receiver who isn't too highly priced. On paper that looks like a downgrade and positionally it may be but for the unit I don't see where it will hurt them. We hardly used centers at all so he is an underutilzed weapon and Moore showed he can catch the ball when called upon. I think we can turn some of our offensive dollars over to the defensive side of the ball pretty transparently but we do need another capable receiver. There's really no reason to allow the possibility things on the offense can backfire when we don't have to. It's not really about how much you like or dislike a player on the field it's about how to push the players to the highest levels they can achieve.

[The Natrix]

I have a lot of confidence in Reed. I think he could be a #1 on a few teams, but since he seems to be a team player I see him being the Bills #2 for years to come.

[Tatonka]

Originally posted by RedEyE


I'm just curious how "everyone" can instantly turn him into a star without seeing him truly preform.

i dont think "everyone" thinks that at all.. i think there are tons of people with alot of questions about reed, and there is alot of concern.. but the bottom line is, peerless wont be back.. he wants to be a number one and go to the pro bowl (dog ****, selfish reasons, but the facts).. we drafted reed to be a starter.. his time is now.

TD and GW know what they are doing.. they see the kid on a daily basis, so they are in a better position than us to make this decision.. if he is the starter on opening day, then he will do fine.

[Ingtar33]

Wow, lots here to talk about, good thread...

First of all, if you look back at the video of last season you'll see that JR or Moore were being used as safety-valves on nearly every passing play, rarely running any true seam routs to take advantage of the 2deep looks we were seeing (something I thought this offense badly needed). The reason JR & Moore never got any catches is because Drew never looked for them underneath, instead he waited for the deeper routs to develop, and tried to force it into Price or Moulds (Price mainly) whenever he got into trouble.

Nearly all of Josh Reed's receptions (by my unofficial count looking back at my notes for the season it was like 27 of his nearly 40 catches) were hot reads, where he victimized the blitzing D with a sharp rout, and Drew found him avoiding the heat. Additionally, he only dropped one pass all season (a best for the Bills) and every catch he made (except one in Denver and one in KC) went for either a first down or a TD (of course don't quote any of this since its based on notes I took after watching game tape, and not on official statistics). From what I could see he found the holes in the defense, showed great blitz awareness, and was more consistent than any rookie WR I've ever seen (as more rookie WR are plagued with drops, fumbles, and shoty play). As an added delight, I saw better run blocking out of him than I ever expected to see from a rookie WR. Furthermore, from what I could see, Gilbride used Reed to run a lot of clearing routs for Moulds and Price (in other words he was used to draw coverage, as a decoy).

Is Reed ready to be a no.1? Probably, my own scouting report of him coming out of collage stated that he "is the most capable of the entire crop of rookie WRs in this draft to step in and play every down." Nothing I saw last year made me rethink that assessment. We got a rookie who plays like a vet, and who will probably only get better from this point on.

Will our Offense be affected by Price's absence? Sure, not many teams can boast two big-time deep threats like we did last year. That opened up so much for our offense you can’t even begin to calculate the effects of trading a deep threat like Price for a possession receiver like Reed. My only hope is that Gilbride takes advantage of that dynamic as successfully as he did with McCardell and Smith in Jax.

[Tatonka]

excellent post ingtar

[shelby]

TD has confidence in Reed....that's good enough for me.

Great post, Ingtar:up:

[BillyT92679]

I've just got a feeling that Josh Reed will be a very good wide receiver. A very solid possession guy. However, I don't feel he will be one of the all time greats, considering his lack of footspeed.

[Tatonka]

they said the same thing about andre reed.

[RedEyE]

Originally posted by Ingtar33
Wow, lots here to talk about, good thread...

First of all, if you look back at the video of last season you'll see that JR or Moore were being used as safety-valves on nearly every passing play, rarely running any true seam routs to take advantage of the 2deep looks we were seeing (something I thought this offense badly needed). The reason JR & Moore never got any catches is because Drew never looked for them underneath, instead he waited for the deeper routs to develop, and tried to force it into Price or Moulds (Price mainly) whenever he got into trouble.

Nearly all of Josh Reed's receptions (by my unofficial count looking back at my notes for the season it was like 27 of his nearly 40 catches) were hot reads, where he victimized the blitzing D with a sharp rout, and Drew found him avoiding the heat. Additionally, he only dropped one pass all season (a best for the Bills) and every catch he made (except one in Denver and one in KC) went for either a first down or a TD (of course don't quote any of this since its based on notes I took after watching game tape, and not on official statistics). From what I could see he found the holes in the defense, showed great blitz awareness, and was more consistent than any rookie WR I've ever seen (as more rookie WR are plagued with drops, fumbles, and shoty play). As an added delight, I saw better run blocking out of him than I ever expected to see from a rookie WR. Furthermore, from what I could see, Gilbride used Reed to run a lot of clearing routs for Moulds and Price (in other words he was used to draw coverage, as a decoy).

Is Reed ready to be a no.1? Probably, my own scouting report of him coming out of collage stated that he "is the most capable of the entire crop of rookie WRs in this draft to step in and play every down." Nothing I saw last year made me rethink that assessment. We got a rookie who plays like a vet, and who will probably only get better from this point on.

Will our Offense be affected by Price's absence? Sure, not many teams can boast two big-time deep threats like we did last year. That opened up so much for our offense you can’t even begin to calculate the effects of trading a deep threat like Price for a possession receiver like Reed. My only hope is that Gilbride takes advantage of that dynamic as successfully as he did with McCardell and Smith in Jax.

Sorry to bring this thread back to the top of the , but I've been away for a few days.

Great response as always INGTAR33.