Dick knows defense?

[Mr. Cynical]

Let's take a look at his "vaunted" defense's overall rankings:

As DC in Jax, it ranked 19th, 15th, 24th and 25th.
As HC in Chicago it ranked 30th, 16th, 13th, 25th and 12th.
As DC In Detroit it ranked 20th.

Not once was his defense in the top 10.

Hmmm...yeah, I can see why he's considered a defensive guru.

[Mr. Miyagi]

Sounds like Mularkey as an offensive guru. :(

[L.A. Playa]

you have too much time on your hands to go looking up stats

[FirstDownBills]

you have too much time on your hands to go looking up stats

It's his job. He's cynical.

[Tatonka]

thanks for doing that Mr. C... i didnt want to put in the time or effort to look that up.. but i figured as much.. i never heard his name mentioned once as a defensive guru prior to his head coaching job in chicago.. and i knew he defense in chicago and detriot were nothing to write home about..

man.. this whole thing just has me so completely baffled.. i just can see why they hired the guy unless he is just sitting down with marvs hand up his ass.. and if the bills were truely interviewing coordinators as well already.. i cant imagine that ANY head coach that wasnt just completely desperate to get back into a HC job would look at buffalo as an option..

the raiders look more appealing at this point, as a head coach.. ralph is just as meddling as old Al is .. but at least the gm and his hall of fame greatness wouldnt be hanging over your head.

blah.. this is just so old already.. and it was just weeks ago that we were so happy TD was gone..

[FirstDownBills]

Do you know how many threads I'm going to resurrect if the Bills right the ship under Jauron?

[Tatonka]

i really wouldnt hold your breath on that whole "right the ship" thing..

seriously.

[FirstDownBills]

It's going to be fun watching you stick your foot in your mouth.

[Tatonka]

:rolleyes:

i would be happy too if the bills dont suck a fat dick all year.. but with the golden boys running the show... i believe my foot is safe from my mouth.

[ryjam282]

I couldn't agree more. During this whole coaching search, I didn't think for a minute that Jauron would be the guy. I thought it was definitely either Haslett or Sherman. Sherman, to me, just made too much sense. A guy with prior GM experience could lend a helping hand to Marv and has been a very good coach for a few years. Instead, we go with Jauron. I can only pray that Martz is the OC cause Jauron's coordinators in Chi-town were down right putrid.

[don137]

I am looking for that silver lining somehwere to try and get excited for Jauron as head coach and I can't other than one year he went 13-3. In all the other years he sucked, he has done nothing great as a defensive coordinator.
I truly worry this could be the beginning of the end of football in Buffalo. Like it or not many Bills fans will not re-new there season tickets. Single game buyers will be less inclined to buy since there is nothing to get excited about. Many fans don't want to shell out hundreds of dollars to see there team be a whipping stick.
Call them fair weather fans but it is reality.
Fans stop coming so the market is unattractive for a potential new owner. Who is to say Wilson's family will take less money when they sell the team to a local buyer. My guess is the team will be worth more if it is moved so it will sell more to a potential buyer who wants to move the team.
Call it a sky is falling mentality but the pieces are in place unfortunately.

[ScottLawrence]

I thought you were leaving?

[Tatonka]

I am looking for that silver lining somehwere to try and get excited for Jauron as head coach and I can't other than one year he went 13-3. In all the other years he sucked, he has done nothing great as a defensive coordinator.
I truly worry this could be the beginning of the end of football in Buffalo. Like it or not many Bills fans will not re-new there season tickets. Single game buyers will be less inclined to buy since there is nothing to get excited about. Many fans don't want to shell out hundreds of dollars to see there team be a whipping stick.
Call them fair weather fans but it is reality.
Fans stop coming so the market is unattractive for a potential new owner. Who is to say Wilson's family will take less money when they sell the team to a local buyer. My guess is the team will be worth more if it is moved so it will sell more to a potential buyer who wants to move the team.
Call it a ski is falling mentality but the pieces are in place unfortunately.

i couldnt agree more.

[L.A. Playa]

ever think that is Ralph's plan one more big payday before he meets his maker ???

[Mr. Cynical]

This message is hidden because ScottLawrence is on your ignore list (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/profile.php?do=editlist).

:up:

[Mr. Cynical]

Fans stop coming so the market is unattractive for a potential new owner. Who is to say Wilson's family will take less money when they sell the team to a local buyer. My guess is the team will be worth more if it is moved so it will sell more to a potential buyer who wants to move the team. Call it a ski is falling mentality but the pieces are in place unfortunately.

Did you see the movie "Major League (1989)"? The owner wanted the team to finish dead last so she could move the team to another city for more money. Interesting you brought this up...

[Mr. Cynical]

Do you know how many threads I'm going to resurrect if the Bills right the ship under Jauron?

[Bill Cody]

Is this what you mean by "I'm gone"? Cuz you sure don't SEEM gone.:tap:

[Mr. Cynical]

Still haven't seen a good explanation for why Dick will be a good HC based on his defensive "mindset".

[ddaryl]

Oh Yeah, well you don't know Dick

How do you like dem apples

[Ickybaluky]

Just looking at his rankings alone isn't fair. I also like to use points allowed as an indicator of defense, as it is a much better measure than yardage.

The Jags were an expansion team when he took them over, so it wasn't realistic to think they would set the world on fire. Yet, they improved in his first 3 years, going from 28th in points allowed in 1995 to 19th and 13th in the next couple years. They did take a step back in 1998 when the team went into the crapper.

When he took over the Bears they sucked, but improved from 19th in points allowed in 1999 and 2000 to 1st in 2001. His 2001 Bears team led the NFL with the fewest points allowed, allowing only 203 points in 16 games (12.7 per game).

The following year they went into the crapper again (25th in the NFL), but that was the year they renovated Soldier's field and the Bears didn't have any real home games.

When he came to Detriot in 2004 they improved on defense to 13th in points allowed in the NFL. They had been 25th in points allowed the year before. They dropped to 21st in points allowed last year, but that team was dreadful as well.

So Jauron has had some seasons where the defense hasn't played well, but he hasn't been in some great situations either. Also, you can't take away the 2001 season, where the Bears were a dominant defensive team and gave up the fewest points in the NFL.

[vicmantak]

Only a question:

Who was his DC when he was the Coach of the year?

[Ickybaluky]

Greg Blache.

He is now the defensive line coach for the Redskins. He also holds the title of defensive coordinator for them, but Greg Williams (who holds the title of assistant HC) actually runs the defense.

[vicmantak]

Thanks NE39

It seems that Joe Gibbs really knows how to be surroundered...
Gregg Williams, Greg Blache and now Al Saunders...

[Mr. Cynical]

It seems that Joe Gibbs really knows how to be surroundered...
Gregg Williams, Greg Blache and now Al Saunders...
Given that Washington's defense was ranked 3rd and 9th with Blache, one can see how Dick was able to get some success in Chicago.

Regardless of all the excuses people like to bring up, bottom line is Dick never had a top 10 defense and the career ranking average of all his defenses is 20th. At some point you have to look at the coach and not the 1,000,000 variables. Good coaches get it done when they have to.

[Ickybaluky]

Regardless of all the excuses people like to bring up, bottom line is Dick never had a top 10 defense and the career ranking average of all his defenses is 20th.

You are not impressed at all with only giving up 203 points in a season (12.7 pts/gm)? You have to admit, that is pretty good.

[Mr. Cynical]

You are not impressed at all with only giving up 203 points in a season (12.7 pts/gm)? You have to admit, that is pretty good.
First, one season does not a good coach make.

Second, in that season (2001) the teams they kept to 12.7 (13) or below were (using your points scored as the metric):

Vikings: #24 in points scored, 5-11 record
Atlanta: #23 in points scored, 7-9 record
Cards: #20 in points scored, 7-9 record
Cincy: #31 in points scored, 6-10 record
Vikings: #24 in points scored, 5-11 record
Lions: #26 in points scored, 2-14 record
Bucs: #15 in points scored (although 25th overall off ranking), 9-7 record
Lions: #26 in points scored, 2-14 record
Jags: #22 in points scored, 6-10 record

So, that is 9 games against losing teams (except tampa) who had an average points scored ranking of #23.4. Not to mention the Browns scored 21 on them and they were #25 in points scored with an overall off ranking of 30.

Do I think they did a "good" job? Yes. Do I think it supports Dick as a good defensive coach? No.

One season of shutting down poor offenses is not nearly enough to convince me. Not to mention 2001 was his "glory year" and after looking at who he beat, it loses alot of it's luster now imo.

[Kerr]

First, one season does not a good coach make.

Second, in that season (2001) the teams they kept to 12.7 (13) or below were (using your points scored as the metric):

Vikings: #24 in points scored, 5-11 record
Atlanta: #23 in points scored, 7-9 record
Cards: #20 in points scored, 7-9 record
Cincy: #31 in points scored, 6-10 record
Vikings: #24 in points scored, 5-11 record
Lions: #26 in points scored, 2-14 record
Bucs: #15 in points scored (although 25th overall off ranking), 9-7 record
Lions: #26 in points scored, 2-14 record
Jags: #22 in points scored, 6-10 record

So, that is 9 games against losing teams (except tampa) who had an average points scored ranking of #23.4. Not to mention the Browns scored 21 on them and they were #25 in points scored with an overall off ranking of 30.

Do I think they did a "good" job? Yes. Do I think it supports Dick as a good defensive coach? No.

One season of shutting down poor offenses is not nearly enough to convince me. Not to mention 2001 was his "glory year" and after looking at who he beat, it loses alot of it's luster now imo.



So it doesn't matter if as defensive coordinator you help a new franchise reach the playoffs 3 out of 4 seasons of your tenure there? You must be a pretty good D-coordinator in order to accomplish that. Consider that the jags really didn't have any great players on their defense during his time as D coordinator. Their best players were Kevin Hardy, Clyde Simmons and Tony Brackens. He didn't even get Tony Brackens until his last season there as D coordinator. Your method of ranking DJ as not knowing defenses based on his defensive ranking don't really mean everything.

As long as we're on the subject of top 10 rankings. It should be noticed that Bill Bellichick only had his defense ranks in the top 10 once during his tenure as head coach of the Cleveland Browns. His best season there was 11-5. DJ pulled 13-3 in his best season.

[Mr. Cynical]

Dick is not Belichick.

[Kerr]

Dick is not Belichick.


No kidding. The point is that the numbers don't always tell the whole story. I bet you there were guys out there like you saying guys like Levy and Belichik would never amount to any success as head coaches in this league after their first time coaching gigs, which weren't something memorable.

[Mr. Cynical]

There are exceptions to every rule. I prefer to look at the rule as it is far more accurate.

I've already done the research showing how Dick's magical 2001 season came about. You are welcome to do the same with the other coaches.

[vicmantak]

Given that Washington's defense was ranked 3rd and 9th with Blache, one can see how Dick was able to get some success in Chicago.

Regardless of all the excuses people like to bring up, bottom line is Dick never had a top 10 defense and the career ranking average of all his defenses is 20th. At some point you have to look at the coach and not the 1,000,000 variables. Good coaches get it done when they have to.
NE39,

IMO this is the most important message in this topic and maybe for Bills future.
Redskins have no superstars on their DL and if Blache built a solid defense this year... it's exactly time to do as much as possible to hire him.

[Stewie]

The overall defensive rankings can be pretty meaningless.

Good teams make their pass defense look weak. Bad teams make their pass defense look great. And passing yards are more relevant to the overall rankings than rushing yards,because teams accumulate more yards through the air and those rankings are only based on total yards.

When was the last time a team won a football game for giving up fewer yards?