So why bother drafting?

[ICE74129]

Fans have now made it where you can't develop young players. To develop you must play. Playing with no to little NFL Experience, you fail until you develop.

I read how we should draft Cutler(sp), or Young or Lionart if they fall. Why? They will take at least two full seasons of starting to devleop too. 'Becuase ICE they played against better competition'. Really? Who did brett favre play for in college? What about Jake Delhome? Hell some fans here want to hand the job to a guy that is a career backup, with a losing record from Mid Tenn St! yeah that is a real football powerhouse. Carson Palmer took until his 3rd year, tons of FA and Draft help to get him where he is today. It also took him having a full year of DEVELOPING in the 04 season to get him ready. Something we failed to do for JP This year.

ONLY Rothlesburger and Marino ever had immediate success. But WHY? 1) they were damn good talents. 2) they were on GREAT TEAMS. 3) had GREAT COACHING!

I can tell you right now had JP Been in Pittsburgh he would be great by now. Not as great as Rothlesburger, but great. Roth walked into football heaven going to Pitt. Where else can you go and throw 14 passes a game and WIN games?

At some point, Unless the Bills totally screw him up which they seem to be hell bent on doing, JP is going to be a damn good to flat out great player in this league. The kid is a self motivated leader, hard worker and has as much talent as just about any QB in this league. Decision making will come in time. When that aspect of his game kicks in...wow!

I have to ask this, what is it about Buffalo and it's fans they can't see this? There was some wailing and gnashing of teeth in Cinci, NYG, Pittsburgh when these kids took over , but my GOD not to this extent. Not only that the entire org (even the players not liking it) Stood behind the guy and gave him 100%.

How much better would JP Be today if 1) they gave him all 16 games (note: the injury was BS) 2) Eric Moulds, Campbell, Teague, Villarial etc would have STFU And gave JP 100% in the locker room, on the field and in the press? and 3) the coaching staff backed the kid 100% as well. I am willing to bet real money the JP we saw at the end of the season would have given us all real hope for this season.

Instead he was yanked for 'sparks' in his 2nd, and 4th games. he was thrown under the Bus by the veterans because they dont 'like him'. And the coaching staff flat screwed the kid to try and appease a few vets and save their own jobs. And the fans crucified him as well. You just aren't going to get much production from a QB, esp a young one, in those conditions.

So I say again, why bother drafting. The fans and apperantly Ralph and Marv aren't willing to allow a guy develop so why bother?

[ICE74129]

And let me add, If you were cutler, Young or Lionart or thier agents, why the hell would you want to come to buffalo after seeing how JP was treated? Honestly if I am anyones agent in that #8 pick I have that concern. How are you going to treat my guy after you treated a guy you spent a 1st, 2nd and 5th to get, they way you did?

Honestly folks, it is something to think about.

[EricStratton]

So I say again, why bother drafting. The fans and apperantly Ralph and Marv aren't willing to allow a guy develop so why bother?

What gives you that indication?

Has Marv released a statement in the past week saying he isn't giving Losman a chance and I missed it?

[eyedog]

All good points ICE. I totally agree.
Why any Bills coach, management, or fan would want to play holcomb and get 6 or 7 wins for the next couple of years is beyond me. holcomb is taking no team anywhere in this league.
I am still pissed they wasted last season by not playing JP. Start playing JP now along with all the other young players, dump the over priced and aged veterans and maybe in 2-3 years these kids will come together like the late 1980's Bills teams did.

[THATHURMANATOR]

We should not take a QB in the draft.

[ICE74129]

We should not take a QB in the draft.

Oh I know bud, I am just refering to those that post 'lets draft so and so because he played against better competition in college'.

If that were the case Jason white and Josh Heupel from OU would be all pros by now :limpclap:

[footballhottie]

I agree

[Saratoga Slim]

Good post. I don't always buy what you're selling, but this time you're right on the money.

[footballhottie]

saratoga huh? Ill be down there tomorrow

[T-Long]

The reason they played Holcomb is because Mularkey didnt want to lose his job. That is why he was pressured when Miami and the Jets came in and then towards the end of the season. He knew he would be in jeopardy and wanted to scrape some wins together to save his own ass. If it's anyones fault, it's Mularkey's for trying to save his own ass instead of letting Losman develop.

[ICE74129]

The reason they played Holcomb is because Mularkey didnt want to lose his job. That is why he was pressured when Miami and the Jets came in and then towards the end of the season. He knew he would be in jeopardy and wanted to scrape some wins together to save his own ass. If it's anyones fault, it's Mularkey's for trying to save his own ass instead of letting Losman develop.

Agreed, BUT now we have Ralph, Marv and DJ saying 'win now'. You can't 'win now' and develop a QB unless you are going to give him pretty much the steelers team. We don't have that. and we dont' have the cap room to get that. So what do you do?

I just hope Ralph, marv and DJ understand this is a two year process. They must cut Mike williams and carry 4-5 mill of his cap this year that will be freed up next year. Same with Moulds etc. Even with 3 new OL, 2 New DT's, new TE, WR's etc, it will take a full year and then next offseason for all of these guys to completely gell. There is NO getting around this FACT.

That said, Start JP and give him the full year to develop. It gives you a mulligan for this season as an org AND Shows the fans you are at least trying. You go well in FA and the Draft then let JP get his reps, fans can deal with 7-9 to 8-8. They are smart enough to know it takes time. We fans just want to see a sincere effort.

IF JP after that can't get it done, THEN Bring in another vet to take over. It is much easier for an established Vet to step into a good situation and succeed than trying to put a ton of new players in. Let JP have this year, surround him with good talent and see how it goes. Even if it doesn't work out, it is win win for the Bills org. We now have a TEAM that can compete, just insert a good Veteran QB if JP isn't the real deal.

[mysticsoto]

Agreed, BUT now we have Ralph, Marv and DJ saying 'win now'. You can't 'win now' and develop a QB unless you are going to give him pretty much the steelers team. We don't have that. and we dont' have the cap room to get that. So what do you do?

I just hope Ralph, marv and DJ understand this is a two year process. They must cut Mike williams and carry 4-5 mill of his cap this year that will be freed up next year. Same with Moulds etc. Even with 3 new OL, 2 New DT's, new TE, WR's etc, it will take a full year and then next offseason for all of these guys to completely gell. There is NO getting around this FACT.

That said, Start JP and give him the full year to develop. It gives you a mulligan for this season as an org AND Shows the fans you are at least trying. You go well in FA and the Draft then let JP get his reps, fans can deal with 7-9 to 8-8. They are smart enough to know it takes time. We fans just want to see a sincere effort.

IF JP after that can't get it done, THEN Bring in another vet to take over. It is much easier for an established Vet to step into a good situation and succeed than trying to put a ton of new players in. Let JP have this year, surround him with good talent and see how it goes. Even if it doesn't work out, it is win win for the Bills org. We now have a TEAM that can compete, just insert a good Veteran QB if JP isn't the real deal.

I think cutting MW would also incur a hit the following year also...

[Typ0]

how can you say the injury was BS. I thought MM said he had a leg or something like that :snicker:

[ICE74129]

I think cutting MW would also incur a hit the following year also...

Nope due to there being no cap in 07 (so far) all cuts have the remaining cap hit put on this year. Which to me is fine.

[ICE74129]

how can you say the injury was BS. I thought MM said he had a leg or something like that :snicker:

LOL yeah I am sure MM didn't say that just to play his boy holcomb and try to save TD's job. What cracks me up is there is JP running around with no limp and slinging the football in practice while Bagdad bob...errr MM was saying 'No he is really hurt'

[Typ0]

I hear what you're saying here ICE....but I don't think the world works in black and white like a lot of us seem to think. Playing JP does not mean he's going to be the next Brett Favre. Myself, I thought he should have played later in the season if he was able...but I was completely on board with benching him after the Saints game because he was doing NOTHING. I would have been behind playing him if he was out there playing and making rookie mistakes...but he just plain was doing NOTHING and I can see where that was a problem for this team.

[justasportsfan]

I hear what you're saying here ICE....but I don't think the world works in black and white like a lot of us seem to think. Playing JP does not mean he's going to be the next Brett Favre. Myself, I thought he should have played later in the season if he was able...but I was completely on board with benching him after the Saints game because he was doing NOTHING. I would have been behind playing him if he was out there playing and making rookie mistakes...but he just plain was doing NOTHING and I can see where that was a problem for this team. :up:

[ICE74129]

I hear what you're saying here ICE....but I don't think the world works in black and white like a lot of us seem to think. Playing JP does not mean he's going to be the next Brett Favre. Myself, I thought he should have played later in the season if he was able...but I was completely on board with benching him after the Saints game because he was doing NOTHING. I would have been behind playing him if he was out there playing and making rookie mistakes...but he just plain was doing NOTHING and I can see where that was a problem for this team.

I will say right here and now he may be a huge bust. But there are just certain things you do. 1) when you draft a guy that high with that much percieved talent you put him in and let him develop. Sitting him will NOT get him were he needs to be. PLAYING is the only way. he needs to have full support and a full 16 game season to even think about judging the kid.

2) you don't put the blame for the TEAM's failures on the kid. That is exactly what the veterans of this team are saying. Kelly holcomb gets us maybe 2 more wins this year. That still sucks.

I don't care he sucked, you must let him ride it out and work through it. EVERY Great QB has done that. As for as him doing nothing, who could behind this line? Who could when the locker room is against you because you are an inexperienced QB? How can you do anything when your top offensive weapon and the longest standing vet in the locker room is throwing you under the bus?

Had he been given 100% support by MM and co, Been backed 100% with 100% Effort by Moulds and Co, had he had a line that could actually block a world league team and had the play calling been worth a damn and he STILL SUCKED.....I would agree to move on.

But he had NONE of what he needed to even make that decision. Do you understand now where I am coming from? No player can succeed in those conditions without the help he needs. We were led to believe we would have a top 3 defense again. We were led to believe the OL improved. None of that was true.

And the thing that really pisses me off? For years we heard fans ***** about flutie, RJ, Bledsoe etc not living in Buffalo. Not working here in the offseason and embracing the city. That is all JP did this last offseason! He stayed at OBD from superbowl weekend through camp. Got a condo here and went out and tried to be part of the comunity. It isn't like the kid didn't bust his ass. Most JP haters make it out like he did nothing but play video games or surf in Cali all offseason. Fans, you got what you wanted. A talented, hard working leader that wants to embrace the community and bust his ass for the team. BACK HIM!

[ICE74129]

What gives you that indication?

Has Marv released a statement in the past week saying he isn't giving Losman a chance and I missed it?

Reality, common sense, ability to read between the lines. But I guess you are one of those guys that says it isnt true (when in reality it is) unless it is in black and white and completely spelled out for you.

[justasportsfan]

Reality, common sense, ability to read between the lines. But I guess you are one of those guys that says it isnt true (when in reality it is) unless it is in black and white and completely spelled out for you. Or maybe Marv wasn't ready to name names until the entire coaching staff is in place which the is the way it should be. It isn't Marv's place to name the starters. I think that's the coaches job. Then again, I too may lack common sense.

[Iehoshua]

Does anyone have any stats on how many times, if any, guys like Peyton and Elway got benched early in their career after having a bad game?

Just curious.

[EricStratton]

Or maybe Marv wasn't ready to name names until the entire coaching staff is in place which the is the way it should be. It isn't Marv's place to name the starters. I think that's the coaches job. Then again, I too may lack common sense.



I imagine the new OC, whoever that will be, woul love to have a chance to at least learn the guys names before a starter is named.

[dplus47]

I hear what you're saying here ICE....but I don't think the world works in black and white like a lot of us seem to think. Playing JP does not mean he's going to be the next Brett Favre. Myself, I thought he should have played later in the season if he was able...but I was completely on board with benching him after the Saints game because he was doing NOTHING. I would have been behind playing him if he was out there playing and making rookie mistakes...but he just plain was doing NOTHING and I can see where that was a problem for this team.

good post. it seems to me that JP got better after being benched for a few games. he looked laughably bad in the first games, then he sat and watched, and when he came back, he looked better. i don't see how JP was or is being mismanaged. no matter who you are, you have to earn your spot in the NFL. i hear the "there should be NO competition" arguments, and i just don't see that. if a guy isn't getting it or isn't playing with patience, he needs to sit, no matter who he is. if a QB can't beat friendly competition in camp, how is he going to beat not-so-friendly competition on the field?

[ICE74129]

good post. it seems to me that JP got better after being benched for a few games. he looked laughably bad in the first games, then he sat and watched, and when he came back, he looked better. i don't see how JP was or is being mismanaged. no matter who you are, you have to earn your spot in the NFL. i hear the "there should be NO competition" arguments, and i just don't see that. if a guy isn't getting it or isn't playing with patience, he needs to sit, no matter who he is. if a QB can't beat friendly competition in camp, how is he going to beat not-so-friendly competition on the field?

Because there is no such thing. Look there are VERY limited snaps with the first string in practice and in preseason. You can't devide them up. Depending on how the game is going One QB might throw it 2x and the other 12x. how can you decide on which QB starts that way?

There just aren't enough snaps. and as a Coach (listen to my words here and try to get what I am saying...) You give the meat of the snaps to the guy YOU WANT TO WIN THE JOB! I am trying to tell you that is how it works.

[dplus47]

Reality, common sense, ability to read between the lines. But I guess you are one of those guys that says it isnt true (when in reality it is) unless it is in black and white and completely spelled out for you.

reality is a lot more complicated than a lot of these posts indicate. i hear the names of palmer, manning, and elway being bandied about as if each situation is the same. as if everybody develops in the same way, having the same problems at first before losing those problems with experience. the truth is, some problems can be worked out on the field and some can't. if a guy can't get it done on the field, but he understands in the film room what he should do if the situation arises again, he is getting it mentally but needs to catch up with the speed of the game. if a guy can't get it done on the field, and doesn't know what he should have done when he's dissecting the film later, you have a different problem. you might not want to trot that guy out there until he gets it, because his problems are more than just the speed of the game. for example, if a QB just doesn't get pre-snap reads, you may want to work with him on film until he gets better, because he can get himself and his teammates hurt out there playing clueless. i don't know what JP's problems were/are, but there are a lot of assumptions being made that those problems only required more game experience to be fixed.

[ICE74129]

Does anyone have any stats on how many times, if any, guys like Peyton and Elway got benched early in their career after having a bad game?

Just curious.

Not many if at all. It just doesn't happen. You can't grow if you don't work through having crappy games.

Hell on MNF Marv should have pulled Kelly against Cinci in 01. first 3 possessions, 3 ints! But marv let him work through it instead of inserting Reich for a 'spark'. Good coaches know that doesn't work.

[ICE74129]

reality is a lot more complicated than a lot of these posts indicate. i hear the names of palmer, manning, and elway being bandied about as if each situation is the same. as if everybody develops in the same way, having the same problems at first before losing those problems with experience. the truth is, some problems can be worked out on the field and some can't. if a guy can't get it done on the field, but he understands in the film room what he should do if the situation arises again, he is getting it mentally but needs to catch up with the speed of the game. if a guy can't get it done on the field, and doesn't know what he should have done when he's dissecting the film later, you have a different problem. you might not want to trot that guy out there until he gets it, because his problems are more than just the speed of the game. for example, if a QB just doesn't get pre-snap reads, you may want to work with him on film until he gets better, because he can get himself and his teammates hurt out there playing clueless. i don't know what JP's problems were/are, but there are a lot of assumptions being made that those problems only required more game experience to be fixed.

It's simple, you get better by playing. You and I can sit down right now and within a month be able to read a pro defense. Guess what? It ALL Changes on the field. Film can't copy the real speed of the game, the feel of it. The crowd noise, players talking SH#@, getting hit etc. And teams change from week to week in how they attack or defend.

Playing is the only way.

Let me say this again, for the 10 billionth time, Guys like harrington, Boller etc all got MUCH More time than JP did. Hell harrington has had what? 3 years now? Two without being pulled?

JP must have one full season, with Full support to even start to guess what this kid is or isn't. No way around it.

[EricStratton]

Does anyone have any stats on how many times, if any, guys like Peyton and Elway got benched early in their career after having a bad game?

Just curious.


Peyton has started every game on his career.

Elway missed a few but the stats don't give a reason.

[justasportsfan]

You give the meat of the snaps to the guy YOU WANT TO WIN THE JOB! I am trying to tell you that is how it works. I thought you give the snaps to the player who gives you the best chance to win. Isn't that what happened with Drew and Brady? Brady was only in his 2nd year and yet BB chose to stick with Brady even after Drew was healthy and ready. How did that work out?



That way of thinking didn't also work for the likes of Tod Collins, Rob Johnson, Ryan Leaf. Ralphy wanted Rob to play over Flutie and that didn't work out well did it?

[dplus47]

It's simple, you get better by playing. You and I can sit down right now and within a month be able to read a pro defense. Guess what? It ALL Changes on the field. Film can't copy the real speed of the game, the feel of it. The crowd noise, players talking SH#@, getting hit etc. And teams change from week to week in how they attack or defend.

Playing is the only way.

Let me say this again, for the 10 billionth time, Guys like harrington, Boller etc all got MUCH More time than JP did. Hell harrington has had what? 3 years now? Two without being pulled?

JP must have one full season, with Full support to even start to guess what this kid is or isn't. No way around it.

maybe there should be a new thread "why bother watching film?" or "why bother practicing?" because it all happens on the field. you're making assumptions about how much JP has shown his coaches and teammates he knows about what's happening out there. and if you can't tell a cover 2 from a man look in the film room, you're not going to figure it out on the field. if you have thrown a pick into a certain coverage, you better be able to explain what coverage you think you saw, why you threw the ball there, and where you would throw the ball next time. that's not about game speed at all.

did JP look better or worse his second time around this year? i thought he looked a lot better. maybe this means he was responding to whatever the coaches were doing?

[Iehoshua]

I thought you give the snaps to the player who gives you the best chance to win. Isn't that what happened with Drew and Brady? Brady was only in his 2nd year and yet BB chose to stick with Brady even after Drew was healthy and ready. How did that work out?

Drew wasn't a young developing QB when he was benched for good. Drew plainly stinks and Brady took the same team to the championship. We found out the same thing about ol' BirdbathBledsoe here the hard way, too.

I believe giving Losman the chance to develop and, as ICE said, work through bad games, gives the Bills the best chance to become a winner. Playing musical chairs QB isn't going to solve anything; see last season.

[ICE74129]

I thought you give the snaps to the player who gives you the best chance to win. Isn't that what happened with Drew and Brady? Brady was only in his 2nd year and yet BB chose to stick with Brady even after Drew was healthy and ready. How did that work out?



That way of thinking didn't also work for the likes of Tod Collins, Rob Johnson, Ryan Leaf. Ralphy wanted Rob to play over Flutie and that didn't work out well did it?

It worked fine until the special teams failed. That is FACT. And BTW....how has Flutie done as a starter since Buffalo? Nuff said. We had TWO BACKUPS on this roster and trying to pimp them off as starters.

The guy who at the time gave NE the best chance to WIN was Bledsoe. If not for an injury Brady wouldn't have played until That next offseason. ( I Believe BB was going to cut/ Trade Bledsoe)

Ok since none of you have a fuggin clue, let me tell you....Head coaches tell the OC to give X amount of reps to the guy they WANT TO WIN THE JOB! I have been made to do so myself. I have tried to spell that out for you and you clowns just can't get it unless it is spelled out for you.

in the coaching field this is a KNOWN FACT! As is there is no such thing as QB competition. the ONLY two times you say 'QB competition' is when 1) you don't have a starter on your roster and 2) you have a guy you really don't want starting and hope the other guy can do well enough with the setup (ie snaps with the first string stacked in his favor) to make him look good enough to take the job.

There. that is REALITY in the coaching world. Now that said, JP has NO FUGGIN SHOT in Buffalo any longer Unless DJ's plan is to give JP the bulk of the snaps. I say he is screwed because Marv HATED playing young players. Go read the mans book. If you have been a Bills fan more than 10 years you KNOW he hated playing rookies and 1-2 year guys. He always prefered a veteran team. Now on the heels of that he and ralph say the plan is to 'win now'. Uh that means not with a DEVELOPING QB!

And I am fine with that....IF they do the RIGHT Thing and trade JP to someone that will let him develop.

[Iehoshua]

The only thing Bledsoe gave any team is a chance to give up sacks, choke in the clutch, and take L's.
:ill:

[ICE74129]

maybe there should be a new thread "why bother watching film?" or "why bother practicing?" because it all happens on the field. you're making assumptions about how much JP has shown his coaches and teammates he knows about what's happening out there. and if you can't tell a cover 2 from a man look in the film room, you're not going to figure it out on the field. if you have thrown a pick into a certain coverage, you better be able to explain what coverage you think you saw, why you threw the ball there, and where you would throw the ball next time. that's not about game speed at all.

did JP look better or worse his second time around this year? i thought he looked a lot better. maybe this means he was responding to whatever the coaches were doing?

Funny as an OC I have seen all sorts of disguises that looked like Cover two but was man at the snap of the ball.

You really need to wake up and get off of this kick. None of your arguements hold water. PLAYING is the ONLY Way.

[ICE74129]

LOL. He did ok that season. But I agree he was on his way down and out.

[EricStratton]

1) you don't have a starter on your roster and


Maybe after watching film this is the team’s opinion.

Or maybe they didn't want to make a commitment 10 minutes after the new head coach was announced.

Now I’m no NFL coach like so many other message board posters so my opinion doesn’t matter much (although I do coach a team of 5 years olds in soccer so maybe that counts) but to think Marv and Dick aren’t backing Losman because they didn’t publicly blow him at the press conference doesn’t carry water for me.

[Iehoshua]

but to think Marv and Dick aren’t backing Losman because they didn’t publicly blow him at the press conference
That would have been quite the sight...

[justasportsfan]

It worked fine until the special teams failed. That is FACT. And BTW....how has Flutie done as a starter since Buffalo? Nuff said. We had TWO BACKUPS on this roster and trying to pimp them off as starters..that's besides the point. You said we should start the players we want and not the players who gives us the best chance to win. Ditto on the two back ups but mind you, DF was brought in to be a back -up and beat the player who THEY wanted to play. How well he did does not matter. He gave us a better chnace to win compared to the one THEY brought in to start.



The guy who at the time gave NE the best chance to WIN was Bledsoe. If not for an injury Brady wouldn't have played until That next offseason. ( I Believe BB was going to cut/ Trade Bledsoe)

Ok since none of you have a fuggin clue, let me tell you....Head coaches tell the OC to give X amount of reps to the guy they WANT TO WIN THE JOB! I have been made to do so myself. I have tried to spell that out for you and you clowns just can't get it unless it is spelled out for you.

in the coaching field this is a KNOWN FACT! As is there is no such thing as QB competition. the ONLY two times you say 'QB competition' is when 1) you don't have a starter on your roster and 2) you have a guy you really don't want starting and hope the other guy can do well enough with the setup (ie snaps with the first string stacked in his favor) to make him look good enough to take the job..The point is, the job was Drews, had they stayed with the player they wanted over the player that gave them the best chance to win, Brady would have never been who he is today.

Wrong you play the player who gives you the best shot. Period. Can't spell it out any better for you either. As to who wins the job is the one who DOES the better job, NOT the one you WANT to win. You can't tell me that that people didn't want Montana to keep his job forver as a 49'er. In the end they had to go with the qb who gave them the best chance to win after Montana was over the hill, Steve Young.



There. that is REALITY in the coaching world..Maybe in your coaching world. That isn't so in the NFL. Just so you know JP got the bulk of the snaps at camp and practices. He just didn't do well enough to KEEP the job at a certain point in the season.

Marriucci wanted Harrington to succeed because if Harrington did well ,Steve would've been able to keep his job.


Now that said, JP has NO FUGGIN SHOT in Buffalo any longer Unless DJ's plan is to give JP the bulk of the snaps. I say he is screwed because Marv HATED playing young players. Go read the mans book. If you have been a Bills fan more than 10 years you KNOW he hated playing rookies and 1-2 year guys. He always prefered a veteran team. Now on the heels of that he and ralph say the plan is to 'win now'. Uh that means not with a DEVELOPING QB!

And I am fine with that....IF they do the RIGHT Thing and trade JP to someone that will let him develop. you are reading too much into what marv said. He will not bypass the coach and tell the world even if he doesn't have a clue as to who the starter should be. Remember, MArv never worked closely to see what JP can do. Marv didn't watch JP play under him so how will he formulate a decision? Unless JP was Peyton I doubt NAY coaches or GM's coming in would've easily handed the job to JP. Not even you can guarantee that JP is the answer so why would the new GM just give him the nod?

[Ickybaluky]

There have been about 50 threads by ICE in the last week that all are this same theme, and IMO they are all assinine. It is like arguing with a wall.

[tat2dmike77]

ICE i agree with you about the JP thing. Last season before the season started we were all lead to believe that it was going to a running team. That the bills were not going to rely on JP just ask him to do the minimum and let McGahee run the ball.

Somewhere along the way the bills lost thier way. I dunno if the bills went into a panic mode or what but the team stopped running the ball. So MM saw that JP wasn't performing well (which he wasn't) and pulled him. At this point in time during the season the bills could of ran off a few wins and still stayed competitive. But they fooled all of us.

By not playing JP the bills have basically set him back. When palmer was playing horrible his first starting season all the fans and the media were screaming for Kitna. I know this cause i live in columbus and they cover both the browns and bengals. But coach Lewis said "Unless palmer gets hurt he's our guy and that is who the starting QB is period."

Now if our former coach would of grab his sac and said the same thing maybe something would of been diffrent. Maybe if he would of told the vet players that were whinning about it maybe things would of been diffrent. But no MM coward to everyones demands and put in holcomb.

What does holcomb give the bills? IMO nothing he's a career backup. Like anthor guy that we had here in buffalo. You remember Frank Reich. I like frank don't get me wrong but look what happened to him when he went to carolina to be their starter. Yes i know they were an expansion team at the time but still. He knew he was a back up his whole career. For some reason Holcomb thinks he's a starter.

Lets be honest holcomb will take this team to maybe a .500 record nothing but possibly less. While if were patient and willing JP could take this team back to greatness.

[EDS]

Fans have now made it where you can't develop young players. To develop you must play. Playing with no to little NFL Experience, you fail until you develop.

I read how we should draft Cutler(sp), or Young or Lionart if they fall. Why? They will take at least two full seasons of starting to devleop too. 'Becuase ICE they played against better competition'. Really? Who did brett favre play for in college? What about Jake Delhome? Hell some fans here want to hand the job to a guy that is a career backup, with a losing record from Mid Tenn St! yeah that is a real football powerhouse. Carson Palmer took until his 3rd year, tons of FA and Draft help to get him where he is today. It also took him having a full year of DEVELOPING in the 04 season to get him ready. Something we failed to do for JP This year.

ONLY Rothlesburger and Marino ever had immediate success. But WHY? 1) they were damn good talents. 2) they were on GREAT TEAMS. 3) had GREAT COACHING!

I can tell you right now had JP Been in Pittsburgh he would be great by now. Not as great as Rothlesburger, but great. Roth walked into football heaven going to Pitt. Where else can you go and throw 14 passes a game and WIN games?

At some point, Unless the Bills totally screw him up which they seem to be hell bent on doing, JP is going to be a damn good to flat out great player in this league. The kid is a self motivated leader, hard worker and has as much talent as just about any QB in this league. Decision making will come in time. When that aspect of his game kicks in...wow!

I have to ask this, what is it about Buffalo and it's fans they can't see this? There was some wailing and gnashing of teeth in Cinci, NYG, Pittsburgh when these kids took over , but my GOD not to this extent. Not only that the entire org (even the players not liking it) Stood behind the guy and gave him 100%.

How much better would JP Be today if 1) they gave him all 16 games (note: the injury was BS) 2) Eric Moulds, Campbell, Teague, Villarial etc would have STFU And gave JP 100% in the locker room, on the field and in the press? and 3) the coaching staff backed the kid 100% as well. I am willing to bet real money the JP we saw at the end of the season would have given us all real hope for this season.

Instead he was yanked for 'sparks' in his 2nd, and 4th games. he was thrown under the Bus by the veterans because they dont 'like him'. And the coaching staff flat screwed the kid to try and appease a few vets and save their own jobs. And the fans crucified him as well. You just aren't going to get much production from a QB, esp a young one, in those conditions.

So I say again, why bother drafting. The fans and apperantly Ralph and Marv aren't willing to allow a guy develop so why bother?

Why bother posting if all you do is b!tch and the team causes you all this agita?

[HAMMER]

Funny as an OC I have seen all sorts of disguises that looked like Cover two but was man at the snap of the ball.

You really need to wake up and get off of this kick. None of your arguements hold water. PLAYING is the ONLY Way.

Does Pop Warner have OC's and DC's?

[HAMMER]

There have been about 50 threads by ICE in the last week that all are this same theme, and IMO they are all assinine. It is like arguing with a wall.

But he is a coach, of something, he must know better than all of us. He tells us so every day.

[ICE74129]

But he is a coach, of something, he must know better than all of us. He tells us so every day.

And will continue to do so until it sinks in.

[Bert102176]

I want JP as our QB I think the kid has what it takes and I agree with you ICE, and I just hope he gets a fair shot unlike with MM and TD

[ICE74129]

With this new OC having such a huge background with QB's AND being passhappy, I think it may be a good sign.

[Iehoshua]

Fight the good fight, ICE!!

[ICE74129]

Fight the good fight, ICE!!

Aye sir.

[LifetimeBillsFan]

I don't often agree with you, ICE, but I do on this one, even though I don't think that Levy will be as hard on Losman as you think.

The fact is that the first article in which Moulds began complaining about having to start over with a new QB appeared in the week prior to the Bills season opening game. Moulds said nothing after the Bills won that game, but immediately after the Bills lost to Tampa, Moulds was quoted in articles as saying that he and other veterans in the Bills lockerroom "wanted to win now" and felt that they had a better chance to do so with Holcomb at QB.

Put yourself in Losman's shoes: you haven't even played your first game and already your most experienced veteran WR is complaining about having to start over with a new QB, then, even though you have won your first NFL start, when you lose your next game, the same guy, the most senior member of the team, is telling the press that he and the other veterans on the team don't think that they can win with you playing. How much confidence are you going to have in yourself and in your teammates? And, how much confidence are you going to have when the coach benches you because he apparently agrees with them?

Losman struggled this season, no doubt, but he finished with a higher QB rating than the other two first year starting QBs: Kyle Orton and Alex Smith. His completion percentage during his second stint as the starter was only slightly lower than Eli Manning's completion percentage during that same period--the difference was that the Bills lost all of those games, while the NY Giants won most of theirs. The difference between the Bills and both the Bears and the NY Giants was not so much in how their QBs played, but in how everyone else on the team played!

As for the comparison to Peyton and Elway: Elway has told the story of how he was benched at halftime of his first NFL start because he was horrible and totally lost out there. If I am not mistaken, he also mentioned that he was benched for a couple of games later that season, too.

Where I disagree with ICE is in his reading of Levy's book and his take on whether Levy will give Losman a chance to develop. Levy did play Steve Fuller as a rookie and later started Bill Kenney as a rookie. However, as I've pointed out in previous posts, Marv is "old school" in that he looks for his young QBs to develop in practice until the coaches determine that they are ready to take over the starting job. This is how most teams developed their young QBs in the NFL and AFL back in the 1950s and 1960s: a young QB, no matter how highly touted or talented, did an apprenticeship behind an experienced QB, no matter how bad, until he was deemed ready to take over by the coaches based on what they saw in practice. Teams started to get away from that in the 1970s and began to throw their young QBs to the wolves a lot earlier on, especially if the team was really bad, to get them as much experience as possible as soon as possible.

At this stage it is hard to say how the Bills will deal with Losman this season. Given the lockerroom revolt that they had when Losman was given the job last season, they may say that there will be a competition for the job and set it up so that Losman wins the competition just to keep the veterans on the team quiet. I wouldn't read too much into the "we want to win now" stuff--what else do you expect them to say? Let's face it, Bills management is not going to tell the older players on the team that they don't want to win or that winning doesn't matter and they don't have the stones to tell their customers that this is going to be a rebuilding year, even if we all know that it is very likely to be one (tell people the truth, are you kidding, that's not how business is done in the good ol' US of A these days my friends!!!).

If JP is as good as I think he can be and continues to work as hard as he has, he will be given every opportunity to win the starting QB job and succeed as the Bills QB. But, management knows that it can't be made to seem like the kid is being handed the job and that Losman is going to have to win the very teammates who stabbed him in the back last season over in order to be successful. They can't get rid of every player who backed or agreed with Moulds--and may not be able to afford to let Moulds go this season--so they are going to have to give Losman a chance to show if he can do what he needs to do to be successful. If he can't, they know that it will mean starting over with a new QB and that will take more time than giving Losman a fair shot at winning the job now. And, time is the one thing that neither Marv nor Ralph Wilson can afford.

[ICE74129]

I don't often agree with you, ICE, but I do on this one, even though I don't think that Levy will be as hard on Losman as you think.

The fact is that the first article in which Moulds began complaining about having to start over with a new QB appeared in the week prior to the Bills season opening game. Moulds said nothing after the Bills won that game, but immediately after the Bills lost to Tampa, Moulds was quoted in articles as saying that he and other veterans in the Bills lockerroom "wanted to win now" and felt that they had a better chance to do so with Holcomb at QB.

Put yourself in Losman's shoes: you haven't even played your first game and already your most experienced veteran WR is complaining about having to start over with a new QB, then, even though you have won your first NFL start, when you lose your next game, the same guy, the most senior member of the team, is telling the press that he and the other veterans on the team don't think that they can win with you playing. How much confidence are you going to have in yourself and in your teammates? And, how much confidence are you going to have when the coach benches you because he apparently agrees with them?

Losman struggled this season, no doubt, but he finished with a higher QB rating than the other two first year starting QBs: Kyle Orton and Alex Smith. His completion percentage during his second stint as the starter was only slightly lower than Eli Manning's completion percentage during that same period--the difference was that the Bills lost all of those games, while the NY Giants won most of theirs. The difference between the Bills and both the Bears and the NY Giants was not so much in how their QBs played, but in how everyone else on the team played!

As for the comparison to Peyton and Elway: Elway has told the story of how he was benched at halftime of his first NFL start because he was horrible and totally lost out there. If I am not mistaken, he also mentioned that he was benched for a couple of games later that season, too.

Where I disagree with ICE is in his reading of Levy's book and his take on whether Levy will give Losman a chance to develop. Levy did play Steve Fuller as a rookie and later started Bill Kenney as a rookie. However, as I've pointed out in previous posts, Marv is "old school" in that he looks for his young QBs to develop in practice until the coaches determine that they are ready to take over the starting job. This is how most teams developed their young QBs in the NFL and AFL back in the 1950s and 1960s: a young QB, no matter how highly touted or talented, did an apprenticeship behind an experienced QB, no matter how bad, until he was deemed ready to take over by the coaches based on what they saw in practice. Teams started to get away from that in the 1970s and began to throw their young QBs to the wolves a lot earlier on, especially if the team was really bad, to get them as much experience as possible as soon as possible.

At this stage it is hard to say how the Bills will deal with Losman this season. Given the lockerroom revolt that they had when Losman was given the job last season, they may say that there will be a competition for the job and set it up so that Losman wins the competition just to keep the veterans on the team quiet. I wouldn't read too much into the "we want to win now" stuff--what else do you expect them to say? Let's face it, Bills management is not going to tell the older players on the team that they don't want to win or that winning doesn't matter and they don't have the stones to tell their customers that this is going to be a rebuilding year, even if we all know that it is very likely to be one (tell people the truth, are you kidding, that's not how business is done in the good ol' US of A these days my friends!!!).

If JP is as good as I think he can be and continues to work as hard as he has, he will be given every opportunity to win the starting QB job and succeed as the Bills QB. But, management knows that it can't be made to seem like the kid is being handed the job and that Losman is going to have to win the very teammates who stabbed him in the back last season over in order to be successful. They can't get rid of every player who backed or agreed with Moulds--and may not be able to afford to let Moulds go this season--so they are going to have to give Losman a chance to show if he can do what he needs to do to be successful. If he can't, they know that it will mean starting over with a new QB and that will take more time than giving Losman a fair shot at winning the job now. And, time is the one thing that neither Marv nor Ralph Wilson can afford.

JP deserves a fair shot. I know this, QB competitions are always 'weighted' Ie they lean toward one of the QB's having the best shot to win it. I hope they weight it toward JP. He deserves the shot.

I think the hiring of fairchild signals that.

[eyedog]

Big picture, you have to look at it like that. Anyone who really believes Holcomb is gonna win a Superbowl with the Bills isn't paying attention or they just don't understand.
JP- has youth, arm, legs, athlectism, @ potential. Can he get the job done ???? Nobody knows at this point either way. We do know Holcomb can't but JP just might. He has alot of pluses in his column. It's time to find out.

[DieHrdBillsFan23]

Ive been reading all these posts, and the more i read the more disgust i have for the bills fans for critizing all the bills moves. But ICE this is by far the best post i have read yet. Straight forward, and i hope others read this and start to smarten up on what they write because some things are just pathetic.

[ICE74129]

Big picture, you have to look at it like that. Anyone who really believes Holcomb is gonna win a Superbowl with the Bills isn't paying attention or they just don't understand.
JP- has youth, arm, legs, athlectism, @ potential. Can he get the job done ???? Nobody knows at this point either way. We do know Holcomb can't but JP just might. He has alot of pluses in his column. It's time to find out.

And here is the bigger picture. We bring in fairchild and keep Wyche. We shore up the OL, TE And DT. The TEAM improves greatly. Next offseason we have more money. IF JP after all of that still doesn't improve then all we have to do is add a more experienced veteran.

It's win win. But I feel if JP is given a fair and honest shot this year with FULL Coaching support (*) then he will be fine.

(*) Denotes Marv, Ralph and DJ TELLING, not asking, TELLING Moulds to STFU and do his job.

[justasportsfan]

And here is the bigger picture. We bring in fairchild and keep Wyche. We shore up the OL, TE And DT. The TEAM improves greatly. Next offseason we have more money. IF JP after all of that still doesn't improve then all we have to do is add a more experienced veteran.

It's win win. But I feel if JP is given a fair and honest shot this year with FULL Coaching support (*) then he will be fine.

(*) Denotes Marv, Ralph and DJ TELLING, not asking, TELLING Moulds to STFU and do his job.

In your opinion, Rob Johnson was a leader because he shut up?

[ICE74129]

In your opinion, Rob Johnson was a leader because he shut up?\


Moulds needs to SHUT THE F UP! Just stfu and do your damn job.

[justasportsfan]

\


Moulds needs to SHUT THE F UP! Just stfu and do your damn job. Yeah, Rob Johnson did exactly that. Rob Johnson took off as soon as the season ended to go surf during the offseason while Moulds trained with the new wr's ,Even JP. Yeah you are right. Rob was a better leader. :coocoo:

Moulds shut up for practically his entire carreer as a bills. He's had so many qb's throwing to him and still hasn't seen the playoffs since TD took over. It's about time he spoke up. Speaking up got JP benched and JP learned from that experience. JP wasn't ready to lead a vet team was was exepecting to make playoffs. That benching was the best thing that ever happened to JP last year. With the way that OL played, he could've been dead trying to run around like Flutie.

[ScottLawrence]

Fans have now made it where you can't develop young players. To develop you must play. Playing with no to little NFL Experience, you fail until you develop.

I read how we should draft Cutler(sp), or Young or Lionart if they fall. Why? They will take at least two full seasons of starting to devleop too. 'Becuase ICE they played against better competition'. Really? Who did brett favre play for in college? What about Jake Delhome? Hell some fans here want to hand the job to a guy that is a career backup, with a losing record from Mid Tenn St! yeah that is a real football powerhouse. Carson Palmer took until his 3rd year, tons of FA and Draft help to get him where he is today. It also took him having a full year of DEVELOPING in the 04 season to get him ready. Something we failed to do for JP This year.

ONLY Rothlesburger and Marino ever had immediate success. But WHY? 1) they were damn good talents. 2) they were on GREAT TEAMS. 3) had GREAT COACHING!

I can tell you right now had JP Been in Pittsburgh he would be great by now. Not as great as Rothlesburger, but great. Roth walked into football heaven going to Pitt. Where else can you go and throw 14 passes a game and WIN games?

At some point, Unless the Bills totally screw him up which they seem to be hell bent on doing, JP is going to be a damn good to flat out great player in this league. The kid is a self motivated leader, hard worker and has as much talent as just about any QB in this league. Decision making will come in time. When that aspect of his game kicks in...wow!

I have to ask this, what is it about Buffalo and it's fans they can't see this? There was some wailing and gnashing of teeth in Cinci, NYG, Pittsburgh when these kids took over , but my GOD not to this extent. Not only that the entire org (even the players not liking it) Stood behind the guy and gave him 100%.

How much better would JP Be today if 1) they gave him all 16 games (note: the injury was BS) 2) Eric Moulds, Campbell, Teague, Villarial etc would have STFU And gave JP 100% in the locker room, on the field and in the press? and 3) the coaching staff backed the kid 100% as well. I am willing to bet real money the JP we saw at the end of the season would have given us all real hope for this season.

Instead he was yanked for 'sparks' in his 2nd, and 4th games. he was thrown under the Bus by the veterans because they dont 'like him'. And the coaching staff flat screwed the kid to try and appease a few vets and save their own jobs. And the fans crucified him as well. You just aren't going to get much production from a QB, esp a young one, in those conditions.

So I say again, why bother drafting. The fans and apperantly Ralph and Marv aren't willing to allow a guy develop so why bother?

As Marv once said:


You don't have time to develop players on the field in this league, develop them on the practice field.


And I agree 100% with him, JP got Mularkey, TD, and probably a lot of veteran players fired from this team, because we thought it was important to start him.


Like I've said, if Losman is the best player come preseason, and Week 1 of next year, then he should be the starter.....If not, then it should be Holcomb, or another veteran quarterback in FA.

[ICE74129]

Look dork, again you are wrong. Run along now your holcomb doll is getting lonely.

[ScottLawrence]

Agreed, BUT now we have Ralph, Marv and DJ saying 'win now'. You can't 'win now' and develop a QB unless you are going to give him pretty much the steelers team. We don't have that. and we dont' have the cap room to get that. So what do you do?

I just hope Ralph, marv and DJ understand this is a two year process. They must cut Mike williams and carry 4-5 mill of his cap this year that will be freed up next year. Same with Moulds etc. Even with 3 new OL, 2 New DT's, new TE, WR's etc, it will take a full year and then next offseason for all of these guys to completely gell. There is NO getting around this FACT.

That said, Start JP and give him the full year to develop. It gives you a mulligan for this season as an org AND Shows the fans you are at least trying. You go well in FA and the Draft then let JP get his reps, fans can deal with 7-9 to 8-8. They are smart enough to know it takes time. We fans just want to see a sincere effort.

IF JP after that can't get it done, THEN Bring in another vet to take over. It is much easier for an established Vet to step into a good situation and succeed than trying to put a ton of new players in. Let JP have this year, surround him with good talent and see how it goes. Even if it doesn't work out, it is win win for the Bills org. We now have a TEAM that can compete, just insert a good Veteran QB if JP isn't the real deal.


What are you nuts?

First off, JP's had plenty of time to develop.

Training camp/Some of preseason of 04.

Training camp/Preseason/9 regular season games.

His final game before being "injuried" He was downright horrible.


Secondly, I don't know about the rest of the fan base, but I want to win NOW, throwing away the season for JP Losman to "develop" would show me the orginization DOES NOT care about winning.


Jauron, and CO are going to go with the best quarterback on the roster, and I wouldn't be suprised if that is Kelly Holcomb.

[ScottLawrence]

JP deserves a fair shot. I know this, QB competitions are always 'weighted' Ie they lean toward one of the QB's having the best shot to win it. I hope they weight it toward JP. He deserves the shot.

I think the hiring of fairchild signals that.


HE DESERVES HIS FAIR SHOT?

HE GOT IT LAST YEAR!


And lead us to one frigging win, over the worst team in the league.

[The_Philster]

HE DESERVES HIS FAIR SHOT?

HE GOT IT LAST YEAR!:liar2:

[justasportsfan]

:liar2:he was HANDED the job wasn't he? It doesn't get better than that. Was is it his fault he failed? No. Neverthless he was given a shot even though he wasn't ready. He will get his FAIR shot at training camp this year . He will however have to beat out KH as the way it should be. There are no longer gimmes in this league no matter where you were drafted especially with a GM who wants to win NOW.

[The_Philster]

He was given a shot and yanked after 4 games..how many QBs are really gonna look like solid QBs after only playing 4 games?

[justasportsfan]

He was given a shot and yanked after 4 games..how many QBs are really gonna look like solid QBs after only playing 4 games? Phil, he had his shot regardless of how many games. It was not his fault that he was put in a position to fail. Point is , he wasn't ready. You cannot tell me that he didn't learn from watching Kelly. He gained composure in the pocket from watching Kelly.

If you ask me, it wasn't fair to criticize KH for his performance especially when JP was HANDED the job and getting bulk of the snaps at camp, preseason and start of regular season with the first team. No one can deny that towards the end of the year KH got better with the first team as soon as he started getting familiar with them.



Like it or not, he had his shot. Was it fair to just hand him the job without having to compete for the job? You tell me. If anything , he got a shot only because of where he was drafted. TD and MM had to make that move which set up JP to fail because he wasn't prepared right.

I still don't think KH is the answer at qb but JP should not be handed the job if we want to win now. Now if we want to develophimand not win now, I say start JP.

[The_Philster]

wasn't much of a shot to be honest...yeah, watching what Holcomb did right helped him...watching what Holcomb did wrong and doing the smart thing instead of the stupid thing put him ahead in the long run

[justasportsfan]

wasn't much of a shot to be honest... I don't disagree
yeah, watching what Holcomb did right helped him...watching what Holcomb did wrong and doing the smart thing instead of the stupid thing put him ahead in the long run I don't disagree either. Both qb's were set up to fail.

[ICE74129]

What are you nuts?

First off, JP's had plenty of time to develop.

Training camp/Some of preseason of 04.

Training camp/Preseason/9 regular season games.

His final game before being "injuried" He was downright horrible.


Secondly, I don't know about the rest of the fan base, but I want to win NOW, throwing away the season for JP Losman to "develop" would show me the orginization DOES NOT care about winning.


Jauron, and CO are going to go with the best quarterback on the roster, and I wouldn't be suprised if that is Kelly Holcomb.

Again, you're an idiot holcombite. Go away. Spew your crap on TBD or BB.com.

[Iehoshua]

JP's had plenty of time to develop? By what, the Roethlisberger standard??
:rolleyes:

Big Ben is the EXCEPTION, not the rule.

[ICE74129]

he was HANDED the job wasn't he? It doesn't get better than that. Was is it his fault he failed? No. Neverthless he was given a shot even though he wasn't ready. He will get his FAIR shot at training camp this year . He will however have to beat out KH as the way it should be. There are no longer gimmes in this league no matter where you were drafted especially with a GM who wants to win NOW.

As was Kelly, Marino, elway and on and on and on. That is how it is, deal with it. I have explained a billion times, there is no such thing as QB competition, it is a BS Thing to make it LOOK like a QB earned the job.

And yes there are gimmies all across the league.

[ICE74129]

I don't disagree I don't disagree either. Both qb's were set up to fail.

funny I thought it was only JP thrown under the veterans Bus. That SH@! needs to end NOW!

[justasportsfan]

As was Kelly, Marino, elway and on and on and on. That is how it is, deal with it. I have explained a billion times, there is no such thing as QB competition, it is a BS Thing to make it LOOK like a QB earned the job.

And yes there are gimmies all across the league.As was Leaf and Rob Johnson. :crazy: Deal with that if you love failure. It can go both ways, Jp isn't a sure thing. If you make it look like a qb earned the job, you will get Drew Bledsoe. No thanks. If the qb actually earned the job, you could very well have a Brady. I'd rather have that.

[justasportsfan]

funny I thought it was only JP thrown under the veterans Bus. That SH@! needs to end NOW! oH and it will end, TD isn't here to hand him the job just because of where he was drafted. He'll actually have to earn the job this time.

Just so you know I think he will earn the spot but it won't be handed to him.

[ICE74129]

oH and it will end, TD isn't here to hand him the job just because of where he was drafted. He'll actually have to earn the job this time.

Just so you know I think he will earn the spot but it won't be handed to him.

So tell me since you know more about Developing a QB than I do...A Quarterbacks coach and OC....Just how does he EARN the job if he is on the bench? Marvs 50's approach of just practice doesnt' cut it in todays NFL. You earn it by PLAYING. You get better by PLAYING. Not by sitting the bench.

BTW, The kid that SD drafted much higher than JP has sat for two years now. When thrown in the season finale he flat SUCKED.

You draft or sign a QB, hand him the job and let him develop. That is how it IS period.

[SpanishBill]

I don't think that there is another position in football or any other team sport that is as unique (hope is the right term) as the QB position. I mean, in soccer you also have 11 players on the field, but not even the goalkeeper (which has the most specific task in the game) is as essential as the QB is in football. So if you don't really give your young first round pick a whole year shot, or at least you show him you're behind him 100% despite your poor play as the Giants did with Lil' Manning at the middle of last season, you'll never know what you have.

So if the QB position is so unique, should there be any problem if the way of choosing your QB is also as unique? Hand JP the job w/o competition and keep him out there a season. If JP gets injured, stick in Holcomb. If after a season he sucks, then go back to the 'old school' method.

[ICE74129]

I don't think that there is another position in football or any other team sport that is as unique (hope is the right term) as the QB position. I mean, in soccer you also have 11 players on the field, but not even the goalkeeper (which has the most specific task in the game) is as essential as the QB is in football. So if you don't really give your young first round pick a whole year shot, or at least you show him you're behind him 100% despite your poor play as the Giants did with Lil' Manning at the middle of last season, you'll never know what you have.

So if the QB position is so unique, should there be any problem if the way of choosing your QB is also as unique? Hand JP the job w/o competition and keep him out there a season. If JP gets injured, stick in Holcomb. If after a season he sucks, then go back to the 'old school' method.

Pretty good post SB. QB is the one position in all of sports that must be delt with completely different. That is why there really is no competition for that position at the Pro level.

[justasportsfan]

So tell me since you know more about Developing a QB than I do...A Quarterbacks coach and OC.... I don't know that to be true and your being an OC or QC coach holds no bearing here. Argue the point.



Just how does he EARN the job if he is on the bench?He doesnn't. He earns it at camp. preseason and regular games. It was given to him at camp, preseason and start of regular season. It was his job to lose.



Marvs 50's approach of just practice doesnt' cut it in todays NFL. You earn it by PLAYING. You get better by PLAYING. Not by sitting the bench. He did play and he didn't play well enough to keep his job. Helloo!!!! Was it his fault? No But he clearly didn't play well enough to impress both the coaches and the vets who thought the had a shot to make postseason.




BTW, The kid that SD drafted much higher than JP has sat for two years now. When thrown in the season finale he flat SUCKED.


You draft or sign a QB, hand him the job and let him develop. That is how it IS period. If your goal is to JUST develop the qb then that would be the thing to do. However, coaches ,players and fans wanted to win NOW and thought they could if they had the best players in there and not just DEVELOP the qb.

If you want to win NOW, you put in the best player.PERIOD. Your example alone proves that. The chargers opted to go with Brees and not the high priced qb they drafted because they wanted to win NOW.

[ICE74129]

He doesnn't. He earns it at camp. preseason and regular games. It was given to him at camp, preseason and start of regular season. It was his job to lose.


He did play and he didn't play well enough to keep his job. Helloo!!!! Was it his fault? No But he clearly didn't play well enough to impress both the coaches and the vets who thought the had a shot to make postseason.


If your goal is to JUST develop the qb then that would be the thing to do. However, coaches ,players and fans wanted to win NOW and thought they could if they had the best players in there and not just DEVELOP the qb.

If you want to win NOW, you put in the best player.PERIOD. Your example alone proves that. The chargers opted to go with Brees and not the high priced qb they drafted because they wanted to win NOW.[/quote]


See you are wrong on all counts...as usual. Drew Brees was NOT supposed to be the QB. The game finally kicked in for him. When it did he was the best guy on the team, it wasn't a 'win now' at all. Learn the facts before posting this crap.

You do NOT play the best guy CURRENTLY available. Not if you want a winning team. Kelly holcomb was able to complete more passes throwing dink and dunks. How many of those long sustaining drives ended in TD's? not many. How much help did those long drives give the defense? Not much they still sucked. In the end Holcomb has a LOSING RECORD as a Bills starter this season. 3-4. JP has a 2-7 record (he gets the KC win). So in some aspects yeah KH is 'better' but not enough to not develop losman.

See there is the key. Is KH going to take us to the playoffs? No. He never will. He has a career losing record and until this year threw more pics than TD's. He is oft injured (saw that again this year) and fumbles the ball quite a bit. In fact in his starts he averaged about 2 turnovers per game I believe.

3-4 for a 10 year vet
2-7 against a much harder schedule than KH played against, for a 1st year and essentially rookie QB.

Sorry, if it is that close you develop the kid on the way up. Not the old fart who has never been a winner and is on the decline.

Win now is fine if you have Favre, Manning I, Brees, McNabb, McNair, Hasselback, Etc. Not with a Kelly holcomb.

Lastly Win now is fine when the TEAM it's self is in a position to WIN NOW. This defense SUCKS. The OL SUCKS. This TEAM can't win now even if we had Peyton manning at QB and that is a fact. So lets can the 'win now' bull shi@ until the TEAM is ready to win now. And it isn't so you let JP play.

Nuff said. I am done arguing with fools.

[SpanishBill]

If your goal is to JUST develop the qb then that would be the thing to do. However, coaches ,players and fans wanted to win NOW and thought they could if they had the best players in there and not just DEVELOP the qb.
I see your point, justa, but don't you think that by developing the QB you're also developing the whole offense? I mean, if Losman, Willis, Evans, etc play together for 16 whole games you're developing the whole squad. They get to know each other, they develop a chemistry for the present/future, which can be even more productive than talent by itself. But if you keep yankin' the guy in and out from the playfield you'll never get to the point where everybody is comfortable.

[justasportsfan]

See you are wrong on all counts...as usual. Drew Brees was NOT supposed to be the QB. The game finally kicked in for him. When it did he was the best guy on the team, it wasn't a 'win now' at all. Learn the facts before posting this crap..
Haha! And you're an OC? Sure. Why did they start Brees last year after the rookie had one year to learn under him. Why did they go with Brees instead of DEVELOPING ? You just answered you own




Lastly Win now is fine when the TEAM it's self is in a position to WIN NOW. This defense SUCKS. The OL SUCKS. This TEAM can't win now even if we had Peyton manning at QB and that is a fact. So lets can the 'win now' bull shi@ until the TEAM is ready to win now. And it isn't so you let JP play.

Nuff said. I am done arguing with fools .NO *****. You . Read and comprehend. I said the players coaches and fans thought we had a team that could win now. Therefore they went with the qb that they thought could give them a beter chance at winning.


Call me a fool all you want. You're not fooling anyone into believing you're a real coach. If so, I wouldn't want my kid playing for someone who can't even hold an argument.

Your resume' means nothing around here. There are tons of posters here who know football better than you do with the way you talk. For all we know ,you're probably the kid who steals JP's jocks and then tell people you're an OC.

[justasportsfan]

I see your point, justa, but don't you think that by developing the QB you're also developing the whole offense

I mean, if Losman, Willis, Evans, etc play together for 16 whole games you're developing the whole squad. They get to know each other, they develop a chemistry for the present/future, which can be even more productive than talent by itself. But if you keep yankin' the guy in and out from the playfield you'll never get to the point where everybody is comfortable.

That's all good now. I wouldn't mind going through that now since we are in a rebuild mode. We were not in a rebuild mode before the season started. We were supposed to be contending for at least the 2nd spot in the division. If you ask me now after watching JP play, I say start him regardless as long as it's clear that this season is for developing our future players. It wasn't the case last year. Ask the vets. They thought they had a shot.

[ICE74129]

Haha! And you're an OC? Sure. Why did they start Brees last year after the rookie had one year to learn under him. Why did they go with Brees instead of DEVELOPING ? You just answered you own



NO *****. You . Read and comprehend. I said the players coaches and fans thought we had a team that could win now. Therefore they went with the qb that they thought could give them a beter chance at winning.


Call me a fool all you want. You're not fooling anyone into believing you're a real coach. If so, I wouldn't want my kid playing for someone who can't even hold an argument.

Your resume' means nothing around here. There are tons of posters here who know football better than you do with the way you talk. For all we know ,you're probably the kid who steals JP's jocks and then tell people you're an OC.

You wouldn't want you kid playing for a winner like me? That figures. Most likely because I would tell you to STFU and let the coach do the coaching. In fact the HC and I banned a couple dads this season from practice and games that I bet are exactly like you.

[justasportsfan]

You wouldn't want you kid playing for a winner like me? That figures. Most likely because I would tell you to STFU and let the coach do the coaching. In fact the HC and I banned a couple dads this season from practice and games that I bet are exactly like you.Sure. I believe you and everything you say,coach . :stupid:

[EricStratton]

So you haven't answered, is it college or pro?

[EricStratton]

So you haven't answered, is it college or pro?


Well?

[EricStratton]

Come on ICE, give us something here.

[EricStratton]

Thanks for the info ICE.

With all the knowledhe you toss around and the coach label you like to hang your hat on it would be ice to know what we're dealing with.

[ICE74129]

Let me sum this up for the stupid that apperantly don't get it. At no time will I disclose current or past employers with you. If you don't understand why, then you are even more stupid than I take you for. Clear enough? Taunt all you want, talk stupid sh@! all you want, but disclosing my employer isn't happening.

[EricStratton]

How about the level.

On another board there is a poster who goes by the name of coach. We all know he is a high school QB coach and OC and one of his job's there is to break down tape. When he posts about something specific it caries some weight because of that.

I just figured, without taunting, that since you have posted more then once how you are a coach and that makes you smarter then many of the rest of us it would be helpful to know at what level.

For example I've coached youth (10-12 year old) football, JV football and was a ref for one season prior to having kids. Since many other people have most likely done the same and that doesn't make me any smarter then many other posters so I don't bring it up.

Now if I'd coached on the college level or higher it would be a different story.

[ICE74129]

I have coached from 3rd graders to NAIA. This is the end of the discussion. I am not worried about what 'weight' I carry with you and several others on this board.

[Ferrygoat]

To Ice's defense, The level at which you coach does not always determine the amount of knowledge you have for the game

[EricStratton]

To Ice's defense, The level at which you coach does not always determine the amount of knowledge you have for the game


That's the whole point.

[TigerJ]

I agree with you, Ice. I'm not against drafting a QB, but not on the first day. You can take a flyer on some unknown phenom in the latter rounds for somewone to develop, knowing he's not going to be ready to play in the NFL for three years if at all. You can afford to develop that guy because you haven't invested that much in him. He would be my third QB next year instead of Shane Matthews.

[Ferrygoat]

I agree with you, Ice. I'm not against drafting a QB, but not on the first day. You can take a flyer on some unknown phenom in the latter rounds for somewone to develop, knowing he's not going to be ready to play in the NFL for three years if at all. You can afford to develop that guy because you haven't invested that much in him. He would be my third QB next year instead of Shane Matthews.
I wouldnt mind getting Charlie Whitehurst in the 4th-5th round

[X-Era]

Fans have now made it where you can't develop young players. To develop you must play. Playing with no to little NFL Experience, you fail until you develop.

I read how we should draft Cutler(sp), or Young or Lionart if they fall. Why? They will take at least two full seasons of starting to devleop too. 'Becuase ICE they played against better competition'. Really? Who did brett favre play for in college? What about Jake Delhome? Hell some fans here want to hand the job to a guy that is a career backup, with a losing record from Mid Tenn St! yeah that is a real football powerhouse. Carson Palmer took until his 3rd year, tons of FA and Draft help to get him where he is today. It also took him having a full year of DEVELOPING in the 04 season to get him ready. Something we failed to do for JP This year.

ONLY Rothlesburger and Marino ever had immediate success. But WHY? 1) they were damn good talents. 2) they were on GREAT TEAMS. 3) had GREAT COACHING!

I can tell you right now had JP Been in Pittsburgh he would be great by now. Not as great as Rothlesburger, but great. Roth walked into football heaven going to Pitt. Where else can you go and throw 14 passes a game and WIN games?

At some point, Unless the Bills totally screw him up which they seem to be hell bent on doing, JP is going to be a damn good to flat out great player in this league. The kid is a self motivated leader, hard worker and has as much talent as just about any QB in this league. Decision making will come in time. When that aspect of his game kicks in...wow!

I have to ask this, what is it about Buffalo and it's fans they can't see this? There was some wailing and gnashing of teeth in Cinci, NYG, Pittsburgh when these kids took over , but my GOD not to this extent. Not only that the entire org (even the players not liking it) Stood behind the guy and gave him 100%.

How much better would JP Be today if 1) they gave him all 16 games (note: the injury was BS) 2) Eric Moulds, Campbell, Teague, Villarial etc would have STFU And gave JP 100% in the locker room, on the field and in the press? and 3) the coaching staff backed the kid 100% as well. I am willing to bet real money the JP we saw at the end of the season would have given us all real hope for this season.

Instead he was yanked for 'sparks' in his 2nd, and 4th games. he was thrown under the Bus by the veterans because they dont 'like him'. And the coaching staff flat screwed the kid to try and appease a few vets and save their own jobs. And the fans crucified him as well. You just aren't going to get much production from a QB, esp a young one, in those conditions.

So I say again, why bother drafting. The fans and apperantly Ralph and Marv aren't willing to allow a guy develop so why bother?

I agree with you completely dude. But I must say I feel like your still at the Alamo firing shots after everyone has left.

It was one thing to fight the JP fight three games in, when the shortsighted were arguing to bench him. It was another to do it the last few games of the season when Hole-Pelt was still out there tossing int's. Buta fter his fat stinker against the lowly Jets even the staunchest Hole-Pelt supporters have died down to barely audible levels.

After all this banter all season long, the arguement has widdled down to a few inalienable facts. Hole-Pelt has done nothing in his career, and did nothing this year. Therefore, its very likely that he will never do anything at all. JP has played poorly at times but also has thrown 3 TD's to Evans in the first half against Mia, and 2 TD's to beat KC. Add in a running TD, and some scrambles for first yards and we can see glimmers of hope. JP has unproven potential; to be great. But we need to see him play.

No new GM, or HC, or O coord in there right mind would keep a talented young QB on the bench, to start a guy who has never done anything. Its not going to happen.

Any so called competition in training camp is meant only to be window dressing to fool the vet fools into thinking the best guy won. The best guy doesnt need to win, he wins by default...or should I say all-of-Hole-Pelts-faults. JP is the winner now and for good.

Your ranting is a bit heavy lately. Save your energy man, theres plenty of closet Hole-cumbers that will be here during training camp talking up some 10 yard bomb that Hole-Pelt threw and annoiting him or savior. Its coming, save your energy till then.

[dplus47]

It's simple, you get better by playing. You and I can sit down right now and within a month be able to read a pro defense. Guess what? It ALL Changes on the field. Film can't copy the real speed of the game, the feel of it. The crowd noise, players talking SH#@, getting hit etc. And teams change from week to week in how they attack or defend.

Playing is the only way.



you're right. noboby else knows anything about football. coaches never talk to players about what they think they saw out there on the field, because what happens on a football field is beyond imagination, impossible to describe! if it looks like one thing pre-snap, then changes to another, there is NO WAY for the quarterback and the coach to talk about this after the game, because such complexity defies description! a quarterback can not possibly talk about what he sees on the field. we get it. a quarterback can not possibly be wrong about what he sees on the field or where he goes with the ball, because it's not possible to speak of such things!

if a guy isn't playing well and he doesn't understand what he is doing wrong upon examination of his own performance, i would make him sit until he shows he gets the mental side of it. but what do i know, right? you're the only one with a clue about football.

p.s. marino didn't start until almost midseason his rookie year. i'm sure shula didn't know what he was doing, giving all those snaps to woodley...

[dplus47]

i don't claim to have any insider knowledge, but it is important to have a coaching staff you trust in this situation. it's obvious that nobody here trusted mularkey. the jauron era has to be different. j.p.'s game is based on confidence. yes, a lot of qb's are like that, but j.p. seems even more cocky than most. this is a fragile situation, and you don't want to put a guy like that in a situation where he can lose his confidence by failing again and again and again... perhaps this is why mularkey benched him. he did play better after the benching. now, i do agree that the best way to learn is by actually playing, but the coaching staff has to consider more than just that when making its decision. for example, there are other players on the team and you don't want to put them in position to fail or stop believing. you also have to consider the physical effects of j.p.'s getting pounded behind a bad o-line. and you have to consider the kid's confidence. look at david carr. he has a lot of ability, but it's hard to say if he'll ever recover from the beating he has taken in houston. you have to trust the staff to recognize what's best for j.p., and you have to recognize that j.p. isn't peyton manning or carson palmer. when he wins his first big game, you'll be thankful that he's not peyton... ; )