Does Bates blow or Saban a genius?

[Bling]

I'll take Jason Taylor and Zach Thomas, and use them as an example. This example is to prove that Nick Saban's scheme gets more bang for your buck from an old guy than in his prime.


Jason Taylor of 2002. He's 28.
Tackles - 69
Solo - 45
Ast - 24
Sacks - 18.5
Games played - 16

Jason Taylor of 2005. He's 31.
Tackles - 74
Solo - 52
Ast - 22
Sacks - 12
Games played - 16 (he was injured, but we'll ignore the facts)


Who had the better year? We're taking Jason Taylor's best year under Bates. That's quite a few years, and comparing it to 1 year under Saban. JT had a career tackles year, and his 3 best sack year.

Zach Thomas of 2002. He's 29.
Tackles - 156
Solo - 101
Ast - 55
Sacks - .5
Games played - 16

Zach Thomas of 2005. He's 32.
Tackles - 158
Solo - 104
Ast - 54
Sacks - 2
Games played 14.

Again, ZT had a better year under 1 year of Saban, than any of his years under Bates. He had his best year ever under coach Saban.







Try to spin it guys. Bates was not able to use prime players to do quite the job Saban did with old guys. We could also say that the Dolphins for a time had the most talented Defense in the league. Patrick Surtain (who I think is the #1 CB in the league), Sam Madison, Adewale Ogunleye, Brock Marion, Larry Chester, Tim Bowens have all been Pro Bowlers (except Chester), I believe. Miami had a very talented Defense at one time. Now Saban has greated a Defense that could rival it in very soon. This to me proves that Bills fans have to admit Bates stinks or Saban is a great coach?


My honest opinion of Bates is that he brings in talented guys. However, you'll soon know what formation he's in. He's way too conservative, and barely blitzes. You best re-sign Clements unless you have a better CB ready. Miami for years was mediocre at Pass Defense. If Spikes is healthy, and you can get some healthy, huge DT's, you'll definitely plug the middle. I wish him the best here, he definitely can be an improvement for you guys.

[deathadder]

You cannot compare the stats of the 2 coaches. If you forgot, Bates used a 4-3 defense, while Saban uses a 3-4. Each player will have different stats because of the system they are in. Just my 2 cents.

[Crisis]

What was their total defense rank?

I'll take team production over individual player production.

[Devin]

:rolleyes:

[OpIv37]

Eric Moulds 96-97 under Marv Levy
2002 under Gregg Williams

Year Team G GS No Yards Avg Lg TD 20+ 40+ FD
1996 Buffalo Bills 16 5 20 279 14.0 47 2 4 1 11
1997 Buffalo Bills 16 8 29 294 10.1 32 0 1 0 18
2002 Buffalo Bills 16 15 100 1292 12.9 70 10 14 6 64

Does that mean that Gregg Williams is a better coach than Marv Levy? Come on Bling- these stats don't prove anything about Bates or Saban. You're using faulty logic. There are any number of factors that could have accounted for the difference in stats between the two years, and you're just ignoring them.

[!Papacrunk!]

You cannot compare the stats of the 2 coaches. If you forgot, Bates used a 4-3 defense, while Saban uses a 3-4. Each player will have different stats because of the system they are in. Just my 2 cents.
We used both, a hybrid if you will

[justasportsfan]

I'll take Jason Taylor and Zach Thomas, and use them as an example. This example is to prove that Nick Saban's scheme gets more bang for your buck from an old guy than in his prime.


Jason Taylor of 2002. He's 28.
Tackles - 69
Solo - 45
Ast - 24
Sacks - 18.5
Games played - 16

Jason Taylor of 2005. He's 31.
Tackles - 74
Solo - 52
Ast - 22
Sacks - 12
Games played - 16 (he was injured, but we'll ignore the facts)


Who had the better year? We're taking Jason Taylor's best year under Bates. That's quite a few years, and comparing it to 1 year under Saban. JT had a career tackles year, and his 3 best sack year.

Zach Thomas of 2002. He's 29.
Tackles - 156
Solo - 101
Ast - 55
Sacks - .5
Games played - 16

Zach Thomas of 2005. He's 32.
Tackles - 158
Solo - 104
Ast - 54
Sacks - 2
Games played 14.

Again, ZT had a better year under 1 year of Saban, than any of his years under Bates. He had his best year ever under coach Saban.







Try to spin it guys. Bates was not able to use prime players to do quite the job Saban did with old guys. We could also say that the Dolphins for a time had the most talented Defense in the league. Patrick Surtain (who I think is the #1 CB in the league), Sam Madison, Adewale Ogunleye, Brock Marion, Larry Chester, Tim Bowens have all been Pro Bowlers (except Chester), I believe. Miami had a very talented Defense at one time. Now Saban has greated a Defense that could rival it in very soon. This to me proves that Bills fans have to admit Bates stinks or Saban is a great coach?


My honest opinion of Bates is that he brings in talented guys. However, you'll soon know what formation he's in. He's way too conservative, and barely blitzes. You best re-sign Clements unless you have a better CB ready. Miami for years was mediocre at Pass Defense. If Spikes is healthy, and you can get some healthy, huge DT's, you'll definitely plug the middle. I wish him the best here, he definitely can be an improvement for you guys.
you actually are the one trying to spin things. You forget that Bates was under Wanny and that Wanny had the final say.

Here's a good point that your fellow finfan made over at FH.

Flintsilver:
"Well, not to spoil your fun with facts, but the closest any of Bates' related offenses have been to his defenses was this year, when Green Bay's 18th ranked offense was matched with his 7th ranked defense.

Other years, offense/defense: (when Bates was miami's DC)

2000: 27/6
2001: 24/5
2002: 15/3
2003: 24/11
2004: 29/8

Wouldn't hurt to move the ball every now and again and maybe keep the defense off the field."

Having an O under Fiedler would definitely hurt your D if they are always on the field.


You want to compare a couple of players stats or an entire D? Wanna compare Bates' D last year to Miami's D under Saban or would you rather stick to your stats that best fits the point your are trying to make?

[Devin]

DAMN!

[justasportsfan]

Here you go

http://www.nfl.com/stats/teamsort/NFL/DEF-TOTAL/2005/regular?sort_col_1=4

If last season was your way of determining who's better than Saban needs to learn from bates. Facts speak louder than your spin.

[Devin]

:movie:

[!Papacrunk!]

Here you go

http://www.nfl.com/stats/teamsort/NFL/DEF-TOTAL/2005/regular?sort_col_1=4

If last season was your way of determining who's better than Saban needs to learn from bates. Facts speak louder than your spin.
I guess w/ the 29th ranked defense, Bates would be really needed.

Don't take this as smack, but how does such a mean and promising (not being sarcastic) 04 Buffalo defense plummet to the 29th ranked defense. Did the loss of Takeo and Williams hurt the team that much? Maybe I jinxed them by having the Buffalo D on my FF team.

[Nighthawk]

I'll take Jason Taylor and Zach Thomas, and use them as an example. This example is to prove that Nick Saban's scheme gets more bang for your buck from an old guy than in his prime.


Jason Taylor of 2002. He's 28.
Tackles - 69
Solo - 45
Ast - 24
Sacks - 18.5
Games played - 16

Jason Taylor of 2005. He's 31.
Tackles - 74
Solo - 52
Ast - 22
Sacks - 12
Games played - 16 (he was injured, but we'll ignore the facts)


Who had the better year? We're taking Jason Taylor's best year under Bates. That's quite a few years, and comparing it to 1 year under Saban. JT had a career tackles year, and his 3 best sack year.

Zach Thomas of 2002. He's 29.
Tackles - 156
Solo - 101
Ast - 55
Sacks - .5
Games played - 16

Zach Thomas of 2005. He's 32.
Tackles - 158
Solo - 104
Ast - 54
Sacks - 2
Games played 14.

Again, ZT had a better year under 1 year of Saban, than any of his years under Bates. He had his best year ever under coach Saban.







Try to spin it guys. Bates was not able to use prime players to do quite the job Saban did with old guys. We could also say that the Dolphins for a time had the most talented Defense in the league. Patrick Surtain (who I think is the #1 CB in the league), Sam Madison, Adewale Ogunleye, Brock Marion, Larry Chester, Tim Bowens have all been Pro Bowlers (except Chester), I believe. Miami had a very talented Defense at one time. Now Saban has greated a Defense that could rival it in very soon. This to me proves that Bills fans have to admit Bates stinks or Saban is a great coach?


My honest opinion of Bates is that he brings in talented guys. However, you'll soon know what formation he's in. He's way too conservative, and barely blitzes. You best re-sign Clements unless you have a better CB ready. Miami for years was mediocre at Pass Defense. If Spikes is healthy, and you can get some healthy, huge DT's, you'll definitely plug the middle. I wish him the best here, he definitely can be an improvement for you guys.


Here's a spin...your schedule was easy from having such a crappy team the year before. Sounds about right!

[justasportsfan]

I guess w/ the 29th ranked defense, Bates would be really needed. definitely


Don't take this as smack, but how does such a mean and promising (not being sarcastic) 04 Buffalo defense plummet to the 29th ranked defense. Did the loss of Takeo and Williams hurt the team that much? Maybe I jinxed them by having the Buffalo D on my FF team. Dick Lebaeu :idunno:

[Bling]

You cannot compare the stats of the 2 coaches. If you forgot, Bates used a 4-3 defense, while Saban uses a 3-4. Each player will have different stats because of the system they are in. Just my 2 cents.

So what you just said was that Bates' scheme didn't get the best out of the Dolphin's 2 best Defensive players?

[justasportsfan]

where was miami's D under Bates before he left compared to Sbans D last year?

http://www.nfl.com/stats/teamsort/NFL/DEF-TOTAL/2004/regular?sort_col_1=4

As you can see Miami's D was ranked higher when Bates was the DC with Wanny as a HC. Hmmm, maybe I stumbled on something. Wanny knew his D compared to Saban :snicker:

[!Papacrunk!]

Here's a spin...your schedule was easy from having such a crappy team the year before. Sounds about right!
Record doesn't impact the schedule like it used to before. I'm too lazy to find the why, but I'm there are some less lazy people like Justa that could probably elaborate on thatl. It was also marked that the AFCEast as a whole (Miami being either the top or towards the top) had a tougher schedule (going off the combined record of the said opponents record the year before,) compared to everyone else. Then again how different is the NFL as a whole year by year?

[Bling]

What was their total defense rank?

I'll take team production over individual player production.

Two different Defenses.

2002 Defense
DE - Jason Taylor
DT - Larry Chester
DT - Tim Bowens
DE - Adewale Ogunleye
OLB - Morlon Greenwood
MLB - Zach Thomas
OLB - Derrick Rodgers
CB - Patrick Surtain
SS - Arturo Freeman
FS - Brock Marion
CB - Sam Madison
Pro Bowlers 5

2005 Defense
DE - Jason Taylor
DT - Vonnie Holiday
DT - Keith Traylor
DE - Kevin Carter
OLB - Junior Seau/Donnie Spragan
MLB - Zach Thomas
OLB - Channing Crowder
CB - Travis Daniels
SS - Taveras Tillman/Tebuckey Jones
FS - Lance Schulters
CB - Sam Madison
Pro Bowlers 2

[!Papacrunk!]

where was miami's D under Bates before he left compared to Sbans D last year?

http://www.nfl.com/stats/teamsort/NFL/DEF-TOTAL/2004/regular?sort_col_1=4

As you can see Miami's D was ranked higher when Bates was the DC with Wanny as a HC. Hmmm, maybe I stumbled on something. Wanny knew his D compared to Saban :snicker:


BLASPHEMY!!!

Bates D is usually predicated on age and speed. At that time Miami had the younger and speedier guys. Now there are still some speedy guys with a bit of gray, but this comparison can only really be utilized once there as been an equal amount of years to compare the two, instead of the multiple years under Bates compared to the one NEW system under Saban. I love what Bates did, but I really like what I've seen so far from Saban ( I didn't know it was possible to blitz more than three times in a game.)

[Bling]

Eric Moulds 96-97 under Marv Levy
Does that mean that Gregg Williams is a better coach than Marv Levy? Come on Bling- these stats don't prove anything about Bates or Saban. You're using faulty logic. There are any number of factors that could have accounted for the difference in stats between the two years, and you're just ignoring them.

Gregg Williams doesn't coach Offense, nor does he write up scheme. Bates and Saban both write up scheme, and both coach Defense.

[justasportsfan]

So what you just said was that Bates' scheme didn't get the best out of the Dolphin's 2 best Defensive players?no , his scheme put those 2players in a position to pad their stats. Doesn'tmean it put the entire D unit in a position to be better.

I expect Miami's D however to be better than it was in Sabans first year.

[!Papacrunk!]

I expect Miami's D however to be better than it was in Sabans first year.

dood, you're not supposed to be objective and say something complementary of an opposing team, I think you may have broken the 14th commandment.

[Bling]

You want to compare a couple of players stats or an entire D? Wanna compare Bates' D last year to Miami's D under Saban or would you rather stick to your stats that best fits the point your are trying to make?

See... this is why I can't argue with blockheads.


Who do you want me to compare? There are only 4 Defensive players (3 consistent starters) from Miami in 2002 that are on the Defense in 2005. Cornerback stats don't really tell anything, imo, and Junior Seau didn't play most of 2005--can't use him. I put the heart and soul of the Dolphin's Defense.



Fact: Zach Thomas and Jason Taylor had their best season ever under Nick Saban.

[justasportsfan]

BLASPHEMY!!!

Bates D is usually predicated on age and speed. At that time Miami had the younger and speedier guys. Now there are still some speedy guys with a bit of gray, but this comparison can only really be utilized once there as been an equal amount of years to compare the two, instead of the multiple years under Bates compared to the one NEW system under Saban. I love what Bates did, but I really like what I've seen so far from Saban ( I didn't know it was possible to blitz more than three times in a game.)
hey, I wasn't the one comparing Sabans D to Bates D who btw both happen to be in their first year with their respective teams. Don't forget, he was comparing both coaches based on individual players performances and not as a unit. I realize that Miami was without Surtain and Knight but that was Sabans decision to let them go.

[Bling]

Let's compare the stats of 2004 to 2005, justa.


2004
PPG - 22.1
YPG - 305.9

2005
PPG - 19.8
YPG - 317.4


Hmmm.... I don't know what's more important to you, but I'd take the less talented 2005 team. Just my opinion, of course.

[Nighthawk]

See... this is why I can't argue with blockheads.


Who do you want me to compare? There are only 4 Defensive players (3 consistent starters) from Miami in 2002 that are on the Defense in 2005. Cornerback stats don't really tell anything, imo, and Junior Seau didn't play most of 2005--can't use him. I put the heart and soul of the Dolphin's Defense.



Fact: Zach Thomas and Jason Taylor had their best season ever under Nick Saban.


By a couple of tackles? You're a certified idiot...go back to where you came from! It's funny how ignorant you are.

[justasportsfan]

See... this is why I can't argue with blockheads.


Who do you want me to compare? There are only 4 Defensive players (3 consistent starters) from Miami in 2002 that are on the Defense in 2005. Cornerback stats don't really tell anything, imo, and Junior Seau didn't play most of 2005--can't use him. I put the heart and soul of the Dolphin's Defense.



Fact: Zach Thomas and Jason Taylor had their best season ever under Nick Saban. you can't argue because you are comparing indivdual stats and using them as a basis for judging coaches. Hellooo! Next time find a valid comparison.

FACT: Greenbay had a better D than Miami. While Bates went to Greenbay and improved their D in his first year, Miamis D dropped in Sabans first year. Those are facts.


You can very well use individual players stats to judge a coach all you want. too bad the NFL doesn't work that way.

RW singlehandedly had better rushing nos in his first year compared to Sabans first year even if you combined Brown and RW's nos last year.. Does that mean Wanny knows his offense better than Saban. Doesn't quite compute , does it?

Yo, even when Seau went down with an injury under Bates, the fins still had a better D than what they had. Bad example.

[!Papacrunk!]

hey, I wasn't the one comparing Sabans D to Bates D who btw both happen to be in their first year with their respective teams. Don't forget, he was comparing both coaches based on individual players performances and not as a unit. I realize that Miami was without Surtain and Knight but that was Sabans decision to let them go.
Good point. It was more as less directed to the conversation as a whole. I'm sure Bates adds new wrinkles to his system, but it was time for a change since the D was getting too predictable, whether that was a Wanny thing or something from Bates, who knows.

[Nighthawk]

I love how you Miami morons love to spin that Mularkey will be some genious now that he is in Miami, but when talk of an ex-Phin coach coming to the Bills starts then you guys are like..."oh, he wasn't that good"...blah, blah, blah! It never amazes me how easily you guys are to show your ignorance.

[justasportsfan]

whether that was a Wanny thing or something from Bates, who knows.This is why I wasn't completely sold on Bates. However , after seeing the Packers D improve drastically in Bates' first year as their DC , I wonder how they would've turned out if he had stayed and their D would've had continuity.

7th ranked D is where Bates D was always at (more or less) when he was Miami's DC. That shows consistency on his part regardless of the team he coached for. The only problem was that the fins D usually faltered during the most important games in December under Bates on a regular basis. It wasn't the case with Greenbay and Bates last year as a fin when he took over Wanny's job. As a matter of fact, they played harder for him. when Wanny left.

[justasportsfan]

I love how you Miami morons love to spin that Mularkey will be some genious now that he is in Miami, but when talk of an ex-Phin coach coming to the Bills starts then you guys are like..."oh, he wasn't that good"...blah, blah, blah! It never amazes me how easily you guys are to show your ignorance. To think that Bates' D was consistently top 10 and none of Malarkeys O as a bill was even close to top 10. Sure, he had top 5 in Pitts but he also had Bettis in top form and his O finally went down in his last year in Pitts. I would not call Malarkey a definite bust in Miami. Saban is not stupid enough to let Malarkey try and make Booker a qb.

[!Papacrunk!]

I love how you Miami morons love to spin that Mularkey will be some genious now that he is in Miami, but when talk of an ex-Phin coach coming to the Bills starts then you guys are like..."oh, he wasn't that good"...blah, blah, blah! It never amazes me how easily you guys are to show your ignorance.
When did I say that Bates wasn't that good? Check my posts, I've had nothing but great things to say about Bates. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seemed like the hate for Mularkey intensified when he signed with the Phins, so almost every fan of every team does it--didn't Williams get lambasted when he went to the Vikings?? lol at the Miami morons jab, you almost had an alliteration going there, thumbs up, next time you could say Miami morons making mud in their pants--you need more words starting w/ the same consonants. :xmas:

[justasportsfan]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seemed like the hate for Mularkey intensified when he signed with the Phins,
you should've been here when Moolarkey blew that huge lead against Miami. Actually we're kinda happy he went to Miami.

His trick plays were PREDICTABLE . :huh:

[!Papacrunk!]

To think that Bates' D was consistently top 10 and none of Malarkeys O as a bill was even close to top 10. Sure, he had top 5 in Pitts but he also had Bettis in top form and his O finally went down in his last year in Pitts. I would not call Malarkey a definite bust in Miami. Saban is not stupid enough to let Malarkey try and make Booker a qb.

Actually Booker had a TD pass against the Rams two seasons ago that looked a lot better (and was a lot longer) than Feeley or Fielder seemed to have had, so maybe that's not really a bad thing, lol. Obviously I won't complain if Costner can duplicate his Steeler days, but there will be heck to pay if he flounders (just like there would be for any OC not producing, since everybody is about instant gratification, and win now results.)
re: Mularkey's trick plays-I can't remember one game where Linehan didn't have multiple reverses in a game either.

[feelthepain]

You want to compare a couple of players stats or an entire D? Wanna compare Bates' D last year to Miami's D under Saban or would you rather stick to your stats that best fits the point your are trying to make?

Hmm, sounds alot like what you try to do with MM. I guess Bates can come into Buffalo and do wonders because you can see "the big picture", but MM can't go to Miami and do the same!! Now...who is trying to make a stat fit a situation to help them prove a point again?? Yeah Justa, you are such a sad case of worthless flesh. You should be the the leader of spin, it's all you do.

The Bills will be what this year hmm, what will they be?? Great, better then the Fins, Division winners, a playoff team??? What is it Justa, I really can't wait to see you disappear once again when all your blowhard predicitions about the Bills blow up in your face and you have to run and hide rather then face the truth and take your medicine!! You should be ban for being a coward. To this day I haven't seen you eat your crow after all the stupid, bias, uneducated crap that came flying out of your bias uneducated mouth.

[justasportsfan]

Hmm, sounds alot like what you try to do with MM. I guess Bates can come into Buffalo and do wonders because you can see "the big picture", but MM can't go to Miami and do the same!! Now...who is trying to make a stat fit a situation to help them prove a point again?? Yeah Justa, you are such a sad case of worthless flesh. You should be the the leader of spin, it's all you do.

The Bills will be what this year hmm, what will they be?? Great, better then the Fins, Division winners, a playoff team??? What is it Justa, I really can't wait to see you disappear once again when all your blowhard predicitions about the Bills blow up in your face and you have to run and hide rather then face the truth and take your medicine!! You should be ban for being a coward. To this day I haven't seen you eat your crow after all the stupid, bias, uneducated crap that came flying out of your bias uneducated mouth.
Hey stupid, where did I say Malarkey will fail in Miami and that BAtes will do wonders with the bills? You're thinking with your a$$ as usual.

[justasportsfan]

Actually Booker had a TD pass against the Rams two seasons ago that looked a lot better (and was a lot longer) than Feeley or Fielder seemed to have had, so maybe that's not really a bad thing, lol. Obviously I won't complain if Costner can duplicate his Steeler days, but there will be heck to pay if he flounders (just like there would be for any OC not producing, since everybody is about instant gratification, and win now results.)
re: Mularkey's trick plays-I can't remember one game where Linehan didn't have multiple reverses in a game either.wait til' Mularkey switches Booker with Chambers at the qb position to provide a "spark" then you will have a qb controversy using 2 wr's. . :snicker:

[feelthepain]

Hey stupid, where did I say Malarkey will fail in Miami and that BAtes will do wonders with the bills? You're thinking with your a$$ as usual.


Lets see,


Justa quotes:


He did own the fish. Little did we know that it was a horrible Drew bledsoe that made Moolarkey better than he really is.

http://images.finheaven.com/forums/smilies2/icon_lol.gifWait til' he tries his stupid trick plays and see how finfans here will be quick to call for Wanny to come back as an OC.


sure he is, the minute he left Pitts, they go 15-1 with a rookie qb and are now headed to the sb. On the other hand the bills he inherited went 9-7 and then went backwards the year after.
Yeah, he's a great OC (you forgot one more letter... "D" that would make him Obsessive Compulsive disorder)

He proved to the world he was a great OC when then fins came back to win. Yep. He's great alright. http://images.finheaven.com/forums/smilies/rolleyes.gif



He did own the fish. Little did we know that it was a horrible Drew bledsoe that made Moolarkey better than he really is. http://images.finheaven.com/forums/smilies2/icon_lol.gif

Watch out, he'll try to make Booker a qb. http://www.finheaven.com/boardvb2/images/smilies/megaroftl.gif Moolarkey and his "trick plays" http://images.finheaven.com/forums/smilies2/icon_lol.gif



The only way he succeeds in Miami is if Saban controls Malarkeys playcalling. The dude out tricks himself. He annoints JP as the qb without competition.Drops Drew (I wanted him gone anyways) for JP? That would've been okay if Malarkey had the brains to know if whether JP was ready to be the starter. He was too stupid to realize that JP wasn't.


Well your right it doesn't say word for word he will suck in Miami, nope not at all. Those are all ringing endorsements for a guy going to a much better system. Seems to me your making it perfectly clear he will suck in Miami!!
Now which is it Justa, if he doesn't suck it will help Miami and if he does suck it will hurt Miam....which is it Justa??? You're so full of crap you don't know one minute to the next. BTW as for Bates I'm guessing you're not endorsing him then...right?? Mkae up your mind Justa, I'm guess if he becomes a Bill you'll be all for it...till he inevitably fails and the Bills fans have to find a reason why they suck again and refuse to blame it on talent. Like I said you talk trash but you back it up with nothing...still havn't seen you eat the crow.<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->