So you want a true REALITY CHECK?

[Tatonka]

everyone thought drew brees was a bust until year 4..in his first three years, he put up 28 tds and 34 turnovers.. then magically, in his fourth year, it clicked and he put 27 tds and 9 turnovers.

guys like skooby think that brees is the answer.. but all brees would be is an older jp losman with a bum shoulder.

losman has better numbers than brees actually after 8 games under his belt.. hell, losman has better numbers than elway and steve young too.

people are so quick to judge someone in a position that has always and will always take time to grow into.. this is not rocket science.. guys need experience to play better. period. if you dont want to give them that, then dont draft them.. just keep jumping from veteran free agent junk like drew bledsoe to the next one like jon kitna or the doctors best patients, pennington and brees.

it just kills me.. i mean.. get some damn perspective skooby and the other dolts, like tackling dummy, that are screaming for every scrub or injured back up out there..

here is your damn reality check.. lets just take a look at these numbers

Hall of Famer QBs

Troy Aikmen - first two seasons starting
11 games played- 9 tds / 18 Ints / 6 fumbles - 1750 yards
15 games played- 11 tds / 18 Ints / 5 fumbles - 2800 yards

* in aikmans 11 year career, 7 out of 11 seasons resulted in more turnovers (ints and fumbles) than total touchdowns..



John Elway - first two seasons starting
11 games played - 8 tds / 14 Ints / 6 fumbles - 1660 yards
15 games played - 18 tds / 15 Ints / 14 fumbles - 2600 yards

* in John Elways career he had more Ints than Tds in 4 other seasons later in his career and never had more than 28 total tds in a season, ever. also, in his 16 year career 10 times, that is 10 out of 16, he had more total turnovers (ints and fumbles) and total touchdowns...



Steve Young - first two seasons starting

5 games started - 4 tds / 8 Ints / 4 fumbles - 940 yards
14 games started - 8 tds / 13 Ints / 11 fumbles - 2300 yards

* after those first two years, young was surrounded by a good team and was pretty much awesome throughout his career. only 2 more times out of his 14 years, only ONE time did his passer rating dip below 92%... but imagine that.. when surrounded by a bad team with a even worse oline, he looked terrible as a first and second year qb. so bad, he wasnt worth keeping.. i bet Tampa Bay doesnt regret giving up on Steve Young at all!



Some Current QBs - since the history of some hall of fame qbs probably doesnt hold much weight.. lets take a look at some current qbs who play todays game.

Carson Palmer - first 2 seasons starting

13 games started - 18 Tds / 18 Ints / 2 fumbles - 2870 yards
16 games played - 32 Tds / 12 Ints / 5 fumble - 3860 yards

* palmer struggled in his first year.. and he got almost double the amount of games losman did. if losman would have got a full year, he numbers from this past season show that he would have finished with right around the same numbers that palmer did as a first year starter.



Eli Manning - first two years starting

9 games played - 6 TDs / 9 Ints / 3 fumbles - 1040 yards
16 games played - 24 TDs / 17 Ints / 9 fumbles - 3760 yards

* WOW.. those numbers look a hell of a lot like another young qb that we have on our roster.. same amount of games played basically and the same numbers basically at that point.. his coach just didnt give up on him.. he responded by getting them in the playoffs in his second year as a starter.



Brett Favre - first two years started

15 games played - 18 TDs / 13 Ints / 12 Fumbles - 3200 yards
16 games played - 19 TDs / 24 Ints / 14 Fumbles - 3300 yards

* i figured i would throw him in there since he is the one that JP seems to garner the most compairison against.. and these are favre's stats AFTER he was sent to green bay.. he was shipped out of atlanta before he got a chance to play.



so you wanted a reality check.. there you go.. i dont know if jp will turn out to be as good as any of these qbs.. but i do know for a FACT that after 8 games, you cant tell ANYTHING about how his future will go. so for the few of you who are ready to drop jp after half a season under center on a team as bad as ours was last year, and a coaching staff as inept as the one that just left, get over yourselves. drew brees and chad pennington will not help this team.. they would be in the same spot as any other qb.. they would have to come in and learn a new system that took them 3 years to learn themselves w/ their old teams.

/rant off.

[Devin]

Re: So you want a true REALITY CHECK?

Thats part of the point.

Honestly I dont get how Losman can be considered a "bust" or "not the answer" when all-pro QB's have had comparible numbers.

[ChristopherWalken]

Re: So you want a true REALITY CHECK?

It will mpost definitly take Losman time to develop. But he also has something that can't be taught. He has a cunning knack for feeling the pressure in the backfield and the speed and athelticism to avoid the sack. On top of that he really can launch the ball when given time.

He just has to put it all of what he is learning together.

[YardRat]

Re: So you want a true REALITY CHECK?

Did any of those guys have a 1247-yd rusher in their backfield their first year starting? Or an 80-catch receiver?

Just wondering.

[Philagape]

Re: So you want a true REALITY CHECK?

http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showthread.php?t=88563&highlight=Elway

[Mr. Cynical]

Re: So you want a true REALITY CHECK?

everyone thought drew brees was a bust until year 4..in his first three years, he put up 28 tds and 34 turnovers.. then magically, in his fourth year, it clicked and he put 27 tds and 9 turnovers.

guys like skooby think that brees is the answer.. but all brees would be is an older jp losman with a bum shoulder.

losman has better numbers than brees actually after 8 games under his belt.. hell, losman has better numbers than elway and steve young too.

people are so quick to judge someone in a position that has always and will always take time to grow into.. this is not rocket science.. guys need experience to play better. period. if you dont want to give them that, then dont draft them.. just keep jumping from veteran free agent junk like drew bledsoe to the next one like jon kitna or the doctors best patients, pennington and brees.

it just kills me.. i mean.. get some damn perspective skooby and the other dolts, like tackling dummy, that are screaming for every scrub or injured back up out there..

here is your damn reality check.. lets just take a look at these numbers

Hall of Famer QBs

Troy Aikmen - first two seasons starting
11 games played- 9 tds / 18 Ints / 6 fumbles - 1750 yards
15 games played- 11 tds / 18 Ints / 5 fumbles - 2800 yards

* in aikmans 11 year career, 7 out of 11 seasons resulted in more turnovers (ints and fumbles) than total touchdowns..



John Elway - first two seasons starting
11 games played - 8 tds / 14 Ints / 6 fumbles - 1660 yards
15 games played - 18 tds / 15 Ints / 14 fumbles - 2600 yards

* in John Elways career he had more Ints than Tds in 4 other seasons later in his career and never had more than 28 total tds in a season, ever. also, in his 16 year career 10 times, that is 10 out of 16, he had more total turnovers (ints and fumbles) and total touchdowns...



Steve Young - first two seasons starting

5 games started - 4 tds / 8 Ints / 4 fumbles - 940 yards
14 games started - 8 tds / 13 Ints / 11 fumbles - 2300 yards

* after those first two years, young was surrounded by a good team and was pretty much awesome throughout his career. only 2 more times out of his 14 years, only ONE time did his passer rating dip below 92%... but imagine that.. when surrounded by a bad team with a even worse oline, he looked terrible as a first and second year qb. so bad, he wasnt worth keeping.. i bet Tampa Bay doesnt regret giving up on Steve Young at all!



Some Current QBs - since the history of some hall of fame qbs probably doesnt hold much weight.. lets take a look at some current qbs who play todays game.

Carson Palmer - first 2 seasons starting

13 games started - 18 Tds / 18 Ints / 2 fumbles - 2870 yards
16 games played - 32 Tds / 12 Ints / 5 fumble - 3860 yards

* palmer struggled in his first year.. and he got almost double the amount of games losman did. if losman would have got a full year, he numbers from this past season show that he would have finished with right around the same numbers that palmer did as a first year starter.



Eli Manning - first two years starting

9 games played - 6 TDs / 9 Ints / 3 fumbles - 1040 yards
16 games played - 24 TDs / 17 Ints / 9 fumbles - 3760 yards

* WOW.. those numbers look a hell of a lot like another young qb that we have on our roster.. same amount of games played basically and the same numbers basically at that point.. his coach just didnt give up on him.. he responded by getting them in the playoffs in his second year as a starter.



Brett Favre - first two years started

15 games played - 18 TDs / 13 Ints / 12 Fumbles - 3200 yards
16 games played - 19 TDs / 24 Ints / 14 Fumbles - 3300 yards

* i figured i would throw him in there since he is the one that JP seems to garner the most compairison against.. and these are favre's stats AFTER he was sent to green bay.. he was shipped out of atlanta before he got a chance to play.



so you wanted a reality check.. there you go.. i dont know if jp will turn out to be as good as any of these qbs.. but i do know for a FACT that after 8 games, you cant tell ANYTHING about how his future will go. so for the few of you who are ready to drop jp after half a season under center on a team as bad as ours was last year, and a coaching staff as inept as the one that just left, get over yourselves. drew brees and chad pennington will not help this team.. they would be in the same spot as any other qb.. they would have to come in and learn a new system that took them 3 years to learn themselves w/ their old teams.

/rant off.

Great post. Too bad certain people will never get it, or will just keep spewing nonsense just to piss off you and other knowledgeable fans.

[ICE74129]

Re: So you want a true REALITY CHECK?

everyone thought drew brees was a bust until year 4..in his first three years, he put up 28 tds and 34 turnovers.. then magically, in his fourth year, it clicked and he put 27 tds and 9 turnovers.

guys like skooby think that brees is the answer.. but all brees would be is an older jp losman with a bum shoulder.

losman has better numbers than brees actually after 8 games under his belt.. hell, losman has better numbers than elway and steve young too.

people are so quick to judge someone in a position that has always and will always take time to grow into.. this is not rocket science.. guys need experience to play better. period. if you dont want to give them that, then dont draft them.. just keep jumping from veteran free agent junk like drew bledsoe to the next one like jon kitna or the doctors best patients, pennington and brees.

it just kills me.. i mean.. get some damn perspective skooby and the other dolts, like tackling dummy, that are screaming for every scrub or injured back up out there..

here is your damn reality check.. lets just take a look at these numbers

Hall of Famer QBs

Troy Aikmen - first two seasons starting
11 games played- 9 tds / 18 Ints / 6 fumbles - 1750 yards
15 games played- 11 tds / 18 Ints / 5 fumbles - 2800 yards

* in aikmans 11 year career, 7 out of 11 seasons resulted in more turnovers (ints and fumbles) than total touchdowns..



John Elway - first two seasons starting
11 games played - 8 tds / 14 Ints / 6 fumbles - 1660 yards
15 games played - 18 tds / 15 Ints / 14 fumbles - 2600 yards

* in John Elways career he had more Ints than Tds in 4 other seasons later in his career and never had more than 28 total tds in a season, ever. also, in his 16 year career 10 times, that is 10 out of 16, he had more total turnovers (ints and fumbles) and total touchdowns...



Steve Young - first two seasons starting

5 games started - 4 tds / 8 Ints / 4 fumbles - 940 yards
14 games started - 8 tds / 13 Ints / 11 fumbles - 2300 yards

* after those first two years, young was surrounded by a good team and was pretty much awesome throughout his career. only 2 more times out of his 14 years, only ONE time did his passer rating dip below 92%... but imagine that.. when surrounded by a bad team with a even worse oline, he looked terrible as a first and second year qb. so bad, he wasnt worth keeping.. i bet Tampa Bay doesnt regret giving up on Steve Young at all!



Some Current QBs - since the history of some hall of fame qbs probably doesnt hold much weight.. lets take a look at some current qbs who play todays game.

Carson Palmer - first 2 seasons starting

13 games started - 18 Tds / 18 Ints / 2 fumbles - 2870 yards
16 games played - 32 Tds / 12 Ints / 5 fumble - 3860 yards

* palmer struggled in his first year.. and he got almost double the amount of games losman did. if losman would have got a full year, he numbers from this past season show that he would have finished with right around the same numbers that palmer did as a first year starter.



Eli Manning - first two years starting

9 games played - 6 TDs / 9 Ints / 3 fumbles - 1040 yards
16 games played - 24 TDs / 17 Ints / 9 fumbles - 3760 yards

* WOW.. those numbers look a hell of a lot like another young qb that we have on our roster.. same amount of games played basically and the same numbers basically at that point.. his coach just didnt give up on him.. he responded by getting them in the playoffs in his second year as a starter.



Brett Favre - first two years started

15 games played - 18 TDs / 13 Ints / 12 Fumbles - 3200 yards
16 games played - 19 TDs / 24 Ints / 14 Fumbles - 3300 yards

* i figured i would throw him in there since he is the one that JP seems to garner the most compairison against.. and these are favre's stats AFTER he was sent to green bay.. he was shipped out of atlanta before he got a chance to play.



so you wanted a reality check.. there you go.. i dont know if jp will turn out to be as good as any of these qbs.. but i do know for a FACT that after 8 games, you cant tell ANYTHING about how his future will go. so for the few of you who are ready to drop jp after half a season under center on a team as bad as ours was last year, and a coaching staff as inept as the one that just left, get over yourselves. drew brees and chad pennington will not help this team.. they would be in the same spot as any other qb.. they would have to come in and learn a new system that took them 3 years to learn themselves w/ their old teams.

/rant off.

Post of 06 so far

[feelthepain]

Re: So you want a true REALITY CHECK?

Great post. Too bad certain people will never get it, or will just keep spewing nonsense just to piss off you and other knowledgeable fans.

Evryone has an opinion, some Bill fans don't think JP is as good as others. It doesn't make them right or wrong, it's an opinion.

[Typ0]

Re: So you want a true REALITY CHECK?

While what you say is true about a developing QB...there are many, many QBs who never become anything. I'm not sure it's wise to take all of your eggs and thrown them into one basket...what are you going to do if it gets to cold and none of those eggs hatch?

[The_Philster]

Re: So you want a true REALITY CHECK?

in the salary cap era, it's also not wise to spend high picks on QBs every few years....especially considering you can only play one at a time

[Typ0]

Re: So you want a true REALITY CHECK?

in the salary cap era, it's also not wise to spend high picks on QBs every few years....especially considering you can only play one at a time

it's pretty logical that two high picks has a 50% better chance of landing a winner. And then there is the potential of many first day picks to be the one you're looking for.

[The_Philster]

Re: So you want a true REALITY CHECK?

it's pretty logical that two high picks has a 50% better chance of landing a winner. And then there is the potential of many first day picks to be the one you're looking for.

like I said...salary cap era

[Nighthawk]

Re: So you want a true REALITY CHECK?

everyone thought drew brees was a bust until year 4..in his first three years, he put up 28 tds and 34 turnovers.. then magically, in his fourth year, it clicked and he put 27 tds and 9 turnovers.

guys like skooby think that brees is the answer.. but all brees would be is an older jp losman with a bum shoulder.

losman has better numbers than brees actually after 8 games under his belt.. hell, losman has better numbers than elway and steve young too.

people are so quick to judge someone in a position that has always and will always take time to grow into.. this is not rocket science.. guys need experience to play better. period. if you dont want to give them that, then dont draft them.. just keep jumping from veteran free agent junk like drew bledsoe to the next one like jon kitna or the doctors best patients, pennington and brees.

it just kills me.. i mean.. get some damn perspective skooby and the other dolts, like tackling dummy, that are screaming for every scrub or injured back up out there..

here is your damn reality check.. lets just take a look at these numbers

Hall of Famer QBs

Troy Aikmen - first two seasons starting
11 games played- 9 tds / 18 Ints / 6 fumbles - 1750 yards
15 games played- 11 tds / 18 Ints / 5 fumbles - 2800 yards

* in aikmans 11 year career, 7 out of 11 seasons resulted in more turnovers (ints and fumbles) than total touchdowns..



John Elway - first two seasons starting
11 games played - 8 tds / 14 Ints / 6 fumbles - 1660 yards
15 games played - 18 tds / 15 Ints / 14 fumbles - 2600 yards

* in John Elways career he had more Ints than Tds in 4 other seasons later in his career and never had more than 28 total tds in a season, ever. also, in his 16 year career 10 times, that is 10 out of 16, he had more total turnovers (ints and fumbles) and total touchdowns...



Steve Young - first two seasons starting

5 games started - 4 tds / 8 Ints / 4 fumbles - 940 yards
14 games started - 8 tds / 13 Ints / 11 fumbles - 2300 yards

* after those first two years, young was surrounded by a good team and was pretty much awesome throughout his career. only 2 more times out of his 14 years, only ONE time did his passer rating dip below 92%... but imagine that.. when surrounded by a bad team with a even worse oline, he looked terrible as a first and second year qb. so bad, he wasnt worth keeping.. i bet Tampa Bay doesnt regret giving up on Steve Young at all!



Some Current QBs - since the history of some hall of fame qbs probably doesnt hold much weight.. lets take a look at some current qbs who play todays game.

Carson Palmer - first 2 seasons starting

13 games started - 18 Tds / 18 Ints / 2 fumbles - 2870 yards
16 games played - 32 Tds / 12 Ints / 5 fumble - 3860 yards

* palmer struggled in his first year.. and he got almost double the amount of games losman did. if losman would have got a full year, he numbers from this past season show that he would have finished with right around the same numbers that palmer did as a first year starter.



Eli Manning - first two years starting

9 games played - 6 TDs / 9 Ints / 3 fumbles - 1040 yards
16 games played - 24 TDs / 17 Ints / 9 fumbles - 3760 yards

* WOW.. those numbers look a hell of a lot like another young qb that we have on our roster.. same amount of games played basically and the same numbers basically at that point.. his coach just didnt give up on him.. he responded by getting them in the playoffs in his second year as a starter.



Brett Favre - first two years started

15 games played - 18 TDs / 13 Ints / 12 Fumbles - 3200 yards
16 games played - 19 TDs / 24 Ints / 14 Fumbles - 3300 yards

* i figured i would throw him in there since he is the one that JP seems to garner the most compairison against.. and these are favre's stats AFTER he was sent to green bay.. he was shipped out of atlanta before he got a chance to play.



so you wanted a reality check.. there you go.. i dont know if jp will turn out to be as good as any of these qbs.. but i do know for a FACT that after 8 games, you cant tell ANYTHING about how his future will go. so for the few of you who are ready to drop jp after half a season under center on a team as bad as ours was last year, and a coaching staff as inept as the one that just left, get over yourselves. drew brees and chad pennington will not help this team.. they would be in the same spot as any other qb.. they would have to come in and learn a new system that took them 3 years to learn themselves w/ their old teams.

/rant off.

I agree with you 100%. However, when I stated to go after Brees, it was for the mere reason that I'm not getting the warm and fuzzies about how this Bills Brass feels about Losman. If they are going to leave it at as an open competition between Holcomb & Losman, that tells me that they really don't have confidence that Losman is the answer. IF that is the case, than I would rather see the them go out and get somebody that they do believe is the answer and stop this flip-flopping of QB's. When you have a competition for QB that means that you don't have a QB. I like Losman and I really hate the thought of Holcomb as the starter...period. However, Losman will never grow into an NFL starter if he isn't given the chance and doesn't have the backing of the organization. I hope I'm wrong and Marv & company go with the kid, but we'll have to see.

[Bill Brasky]

Re: So you want a true REALITY CHECK?

Thats part of the point.

Honestly I dont get how Losman can be considered a "bust" or "not the answer" when all-pro QB's have had comparible numbers.

because people, especially Bills fans, are really impatient. however, considering the fact that this team constantly sucks decade after decade (sans late 80's/early 90's) i think it is somewhat justified.

this season we will learn a lot about JP and IMO this is his make it or break it year. if he shows improvement or at least plays at an average level, he will be alright for this team. if he is stagnant or backtracks, then we can really start to worry and expect something to be done either via free agency or drafting (again) after the season. hell, if Holcomb beats him out for the job we can start worrying then!

plain and simple - this team is nowhere near the playoffs, at least yet. as much as i want to get excited about free agency and the draft, there's no way that this team will make a drastic turnaround towards a deep playoff run, regardless of who they bring in or draft.

the best we can hope for is that this organization makes JP earn the job this year against Holcomb. watch the guy develop or regress, then we will all know where this organization is headed in the next few years.

[Mr. Cynical]

Re: So you want a true REALITY CHECK?

Evryone has an opinion, some Bill fans don't think JP is as good as others. It doesn't make them right or wrong, it's an opinion.

Yes, opinions are like a**holes, everyone has got one and they usually stink.

In any case, you've completely missed the point, as I mentioned to Tonk that certain people would. The bottom line is that certain people are not saying "I think JP will be a bust"...they are saying "JP is a bust". Huge difference.

"will be a bust" is a guess/opinion. Nobody has a crystal ball so that's fine.

"is a bust" is a statement of fact, which is ridiculous given the lack of playing time and competent coaches.

If certain people can't see that it is too early to say he IS a bust, then there nothing else to say. They will never get it (or, as I mentioned, they get it and just want to bust balls)