The Davis talk is amazing

[Stewie]

Does anyone really think that human reaction time is capable of consistently and precisely measuring within .2 of a second? Or HUNDRETHS of a second???? You realize that makes the difference between a 4.37 and a 4.57........... absolutely nothing except the timing of the guy's thumb. And whether or not he blinked.

If he ran a 4.57 no one would care.

There's a reason the guy played for Maryland.

He's 6'3", barely bigger than many cornerbacks and significantly smaller than recent first round TE's like Bubba Franks and Ben Watson. So he looks good running on a track without pads on, and he can do agility drills that don't mean squat between the lines. So what, so does every olympic athlete. Why not draft them too? Can anyone say Mike Mamula?

This guy has bust written all over him. Let someone above us make the mistake and give us more quality talent to choose from.

[Bill Cody]

You have a future in pro player development Paul B. Hurry down to Indy and let the teams know the millions they're wasting on the combine. It's all one big waste of time.:handball:

[Stewie]

You have a future in pro player development Paul B. Hurry down to Indy and let the teams know the millions they're wasting on the combine. It's all one big waste of time.:handball:

Yea dude, that's what I said. Oh sorry, not said, that's what I implied. Oh no wait, I didn't imply that either.

I guess you're just an idiot.

[camelcowboy]

Straight line speed means nothing, Matt Jones had better times,and he still had problems seperating from corners. Careful with 40 times, and weight reps they can make your forget to watch film on players.

[L.A. Playa]

A football player with 4.37 speed is awesome, a fast guy trying to play football is not

I am not saying Davis isnt a football player I dont know, but speed and football speed and being a football player is two different things

[Stewie]

A football player with 4.37 speed is awesome, a fast guy trying to play football is not

I am not saying Davis isnt a football player I dont know, but speed and football speed and being a football player is two different things

I agree with you 100%, which is why I think having guys run on a track is worthless.

Take the tapes, find the times in their career where they had a clean break and sprinted downfield. Time them, see how they separate. Anything. ANYTHING except running on a rubber track in shorts and no pads.

[Bill Cody]

Does anyone really think that human reaction time is capable of consistently and precisely measuring within .2 of a second? Or HUNDRETHS of a second???? You realize that makes the difference between a 4.37 and a 4.57........... absolutely nothing except the timing of the guy's thumb. And whether or not he blinked.

If he ran a 4.57 no one would care.

There's a reason the guy played for Maryland.

He's 6'3", barely bigger than many cornerbacks and significantly smaller than recent first round TE's like Bubba Franks and Ben Watson. So he looks good running on a track without pads on, and he can do agility drills that don't mean squat between the lines. So what, so does every olympic athlete. Why not draft them too? Can anyone say Mike Mamula?

This guy has bust written all over him. Let someone above us make the mistake and give us more quality talent to choose from.

I nominate this post as the dumbest of the year. Let me run down the list of stupidities.

1) .2 in the 40 is a huge difference. It's the difference between open and not open for a receiver, tackled and not tackled for a RB, a sack and no sack for a LB. You can't be serious about this. Because if you are bro the biggest thing at the combine, the 40, is one big joke and I can tell you the scouts and the coaches don't see it that way.

2) Last year's NFL defensive rookie of the year Shawne Merriman went to Maryland. How does Davis going to Maryland tell you anything about how good he is?

3) .2 of a second doesn't matter but an inch in height means the guy can't play? LOL If Davis were a WR he'd be considered big- 6'3" is not small by any standard.

3) You're assuming NFL teams don't look at TONS of film along with the results of the combine, interviews, coaches recomendations, it all matters. Including the combine drills. And you basically went down the list of all the things they do at the combine and say they don't matter. Again you wouldn't see the teams invest the time and resources in the combine if they didn't take the results VERY seriously.

4) You're comparing him to Mike Mamula. Based on what? Davis was a lock to be a top 15 pick BEFORE the combine based on his on field production. Have you ever seen the guy play one down yourself? Doubt it.

[ParanoidAndroid]

This isn't just about his 40 time, but someone who weighs 250lbs and can run like he can, catch like he can, get open and produce like he has, deserves to be talked about. He will undoubtedly create mismatches wherever he lines up with that size and speed.

[lordofgun]

Davis is about as sure a lock as any player in the draft to be a very good player.

[FlyingDutchman]

Does anyone really think that human reaction time is capable of consistently and precisely measuring within .2 of a second? Or HUNDRETHS of a second???? You realize that makes the difference between a 4.37 and a 4.57........... absolutely nothing except the timing of the guy's thumb. And whether or not he blinked.

If he ran a 4.57 no one would care.

There's a reason the guy played for Maryland.

He's 6'3", barely bigger than many cornerbacks and significantly smaller than recent first round TE's like Bubba Franks and Ben Watson. So he looks good running on a track without pads on, and he can do agility drills that don't mean squat between the lines. So what, so does every olympic athlete. Why not draft them too? Can anyone say Mike Mamula?


This guy has bust written all over him. Let someone above us make the mistake and give us more quality talent to choose from.

even if it is 4.5, not many LB's can sprint like that. He has been said to be a better prospect than kellen winslow jr when he came out of college.... Frank Wyillegalthrowbackcheck came from Maryland and had a good career. Davis is being compared to Tony Gonzalez. I dont think these comparisons were based on a couple of work outs, the kid can obviously play. So who would you rather take ngata who has looked poor on film (that ive seen) but had great work outs? I agree that workouts may not mean much, but more times than not, they are a good projector of physical ability which is essential when these guys are making such a big jump from the athletic ability in college to the athletic ability of the pros. Look what happened to Clarrett last year when he bombed on his 40. That was the beginning of the end for him. Do you honestly think all these tests that have been done for years dont serve a purpose? And its not like the combine has Otis the 83 year-old ex-gym coach running the stop watch at the finish line of the 40. There are dozens of professional scouts there all sharing information and Im sure they know what they're doing.

[Crisis]

There's a reason the guy played for Maryland.



Well, there's a great reason not to draft a guy.

I mean, not like the best RB in the league went to TCU...

Or the best TE in the league went to Kent State.

[Tatonka]

are the 40 times not elecronically timed at the combine?

[TigerJ]

Straight line speed means nothing, Matt Jones had better times,and he still had problems seperating from corners. Careful with 40 times, and weight reps they can make your forget to watch film on players.

How 'bout cutting Matt Jones a little slack. He was a college QB. It will take him a little time to learn the nuances of playing WR in the pros. Once he learns a little technique, his straight line speed will mean more. Vern Davis at least has college experience playing tight end. I'm not saying he should or shouldn't be the Bills pick, but he could certainly add a dimension to some team's passing attack.

[THATHURMANATOR]

I honestly never have seen him play but from what I have read he wasn't just a workout guy and was a very good player in college.

[ICE74129]

Does anyone really think that human reaction time is capable of consistently and precisely measuring within .2 of a second? Or HUNDRETHS of a second???? You realize that makes the difference between a 4.37 and a 4.57........... absolutely nothing except the timing of the guy's thumb. And whether or not he blinked.

If he ran a 4.57 no one would care.

There's a reason the guy played for Maryland.

He's 6'3", barely bigger than many cornerbacks and significantly smaller than recent first round TE's like Bubba Franks and Ben Watson. So he looks good running on a track without pads on, and he can do agility drills that don't mean squat between the lines. So what, so does every olympic athlete. Why not draft them too? Can anyone say Mike Mamula?

This guy has bust written all over him. Let someone above us make the mistake and give us more quality talent to choose from.

One of the dumbest posts ever. First off, look at the markers along the 40 path. The time is measured digitally as is the finish of the 40. Coaches keep thier own times then match them to what the combine digital says.

Next, The man is a player. So you say Andre Reed was a bust? Kutztown state? WTF? Lower rated than Maryland.

These are the posts that just amaze me at the lowered amount of knowledge the Bills fanbase has.

[Philagape]

Only one thing is less significant than combine times, and that's where a player went to college. Of all people, Bills fans should know that.

[Meathead]

the difference between a 4.37 and a 4.57 is two tenths of a second not hundredths

unless you mean two hundred hundredths :wtf:

[TacklingDummy]

I rather see them run their 40 times with pads on.

[X-Era]

Does anyone really think that human reaction time is capable of consistently and precisely measuring within .2 of a second? Or HUNDRETHS of a second???? You realize that makes the difference between a 4.37 and a 4.57........... absolutely nothing except the timing of the guy's thumb. And whether or not he blinked.

If he ran a 4.57 no one would care.

There's a reason the guy played for Maryland.

He's 6'3", barely bigger than many cornerbacks and significantly smaller than recent first round TE's like Bubba Franks and Ben Watson. So he looks good running on a track without pads on, and he can do agility drills that don't mean squat between the lines. So what, so does every olympic athlete. Why not draft them too? Can anyone say Mike Mamula?

This guy has bust written all over him. Let someone above us make the mistake and give us more quality talent to choose from.

This post is nothing more than transparent smoke and mirrors to cover an obsession for us taking some other player.

Skip the speech and tell us who you want and why

[THATHURMANATOR]

If he ran a 4.57 no one would care.



But he ran a 4.37 :idunno:

[DMBcrew36]

are the 40 times not elecronically timed at the combine?

Yea that's what I thought. I don't think there is any human component to the recorded time.

[X-Era]

Yea that's what I thought. I don't think there is any human component to the recorded time.

Its digital.

Only someone who hasnt watched the Olympics in the past decade would cliam timing is done by hand.

Its no big deal, the guy ran a 4.37

he was 1st out of the TE's in Bench with 33 reps
1st out of vert jump
1st for broad jump
and 1st in 40 time.

Your right, a guy thats that good and has proven it ON THE FIELD at Maryland too is just a waste.

[Meister]

Davis isnt a tight end, hes an h-back. If some genius nfl coach tries to play him in a three point stance he wont do well on the next level. He spent most of his time either lined up in the fullback spot or as a slot WR. He wasnt big enough to take on DEs in the ACC so dont expect him to do it in the NFL. Another thing that worries me is that good defensive teams shut him down. He had nothing against Va Tech, Clemson, WV, NC State, and Ga Tech. He racked up all his yardage in 4 games, against Northern Illinois, Duke, Virginia, and one spectacular catch against FSU. He is a unique talent, I'd just think of him more as a David Boston type than Antonio Gates.

[Philagape]

This may be a crazy idea, but instead of a combine I'd like to see a game between draft prospects and actual NFL players. The pros would be paid by the NFL, and if they got injured their teams would get a compensatory draft pick.

I just don't understand why so much stock is put in drills that are not like game conditions. Track speed does not equal football speed. Strength means nothing if you're outmanuvered in the trenches.

[mysticsoto]

I nominate this post as the dumbest of the year. Let me run down the list of stupidities.

1) .2 in the 40 is a huge difference. It's the difference between open and not open for a receiver, tackled and not tackled for a RB, a sack and no sack for a LB. You can't be serious about this. Because if you are bro the biggest thing at the combine, the 40, is one big joke and I can tell you the scouts and the coaches don't see it that way.

2) Last year's NFL defensive rookie of the year Shawne Merriman went to Maryland. How does Davis going to Maryland tell you anything about how good he is?

3) .2 of a second doesn't matter but an inch in height means the guy can't play? LOL If Davis were a WR he'd be considered big- 6'3" is not small by any standard.

3) You're assuming NFL teams don't look at TONS of film along with the results of the combine, interviews, coaches recomendations, it all matters. Including the combine drills. And you basically went down the list of all the things they do at the combine and say they don't matter. Again you wouldn't see the teams invest the time and resources in the combine if they didn't take the results VERY seriously.

4) You're comparing him to Mike Mamula. Based on what? Davis was a lock to be a top 15 pick BEFORE the combine based on his on field production. Have you ever seen the guy play one down yourself? Doubt it.

I'll second that...there are alot of things to take into consideration on someone and the 40 time is hardly the only thing that Vernon Davis has going for him.

#5) He was also #1 on the Broad Jump in the TE group at 10 foot 8.

#6) And, he was #1 in the vertical jump at 42" (3.5 feet in the air straight up with no running time)!

That's all pretty impressive. After this, if you look at his build, you'd guess he is a solid linebacker.

#7) Who's going to have more muscle to go after a ball, a CB or him?

#8) Who's going to cover him speedwise? Great and even good LBs will probably average around the 4.5 range of speed. He completely outclasses them. Even great CBs tend to be in the 4.4 range.

#9) He has extremely soft hands as a TE should

#10) He had a nasty demeanor that FBs tend to have when it comes to blocking. In fact, it was mentioned during the coverage of the combine that he knocked Mario Williams down!!!!


But I understand people's objection. You literally have to see Davis to see why he is so good.

I found a video of Vernon in college. Observe how hard it is to bring him down!!!

http://umterps.collegesports.com/fridgetv/video-iframe.html?&url=http://mfile.akamai.com/16410/wmv/mlbcs.download.akamai.com/16410/open/umd/2005/mfb/video/archive10/100605-vernon-davis-all-american.asx

[Philagape]

Of course NFL teams take the combine seriously, and their 100% bust-free success rate over the years is a testament to their expertise.

[Stewie]

I nominate this post as the dumbest of the year. Let me run down the list of stupidities.

1) .2 in the 40 is a huge difference. It's the difference between open and not open for a receiver, tackled and not tackled for a RB, a sack and no sack for a LB. You can't be serious about this. Because if you are bro the biggest thing at the combine, the 40, is one big joke and I can tell you the scouts and the coaches don't see it that way.

2) Last year's NFL defensive rookie of the year Shawne Merriman went to Maryland. How does Davis going to Maryland tell you anything about how good he is?

3) .2 of a second doesn't matter but an inch in height means the guy can't play? LOL If Davis were a WR he'd be considered big- 6'3" is not small by any standard.

3) You're assuming NFL teams don't look at TONS of film along with the results of the combine, interviews, coaches recomendations, it all matters. Including the combine drills. And you basically went down the list of all the things they do at the combine and say they don't matter. Again you wouldn't see the teams invest the time and resources in the combine if they didn't take the results VERY seriously.

4) You're comparing him to Mike Mamula. Based on what? Davis was a lock to be a top 15 pick BEFORE the combine based on his on field production. Have you ever seen the guy play one down yourself? Doubt it.

I didn't say .2 was meaningless on the field. Try reading you dolt. Go ahead, read it. I said that humans can't accurately and precisely measure the difference between 4.37 and 4.57.

Look up the definition of accurate and precise before you post any more stupidity.


I didn't assume ANYTHING about NFL teams. What I did say was that a 40 yard dash time on a track in shorts is COMPLETELY WORTHLESS.

I'm comparing him to mike mamula based on the idea that he's going to rocket up the draft board based not on his on-field prowess but on how good he looks in shorts.

[Stewie]

Its digital.

Only someone who hasnt watched the Olympics in the past decade would cliam timing is done by hand.

Its no big deal, the guy ran a 4.37

he was 1st out of the TE's in Bench with 33 reps
1st out of vert jump
1st for broad jump
and 1st in 40 time.

Your right, a guy thats that good and has proven it ON THE FIELD at Maryland too is just a waste.

Not sure what the olymics has to do with the combine, but the combine numbers are run both electronically and by hand.

[TedMock]

Does anyone really think that human reaction time is capable of consistently and precisely measuring within .2 of a second? Or HUNDRETHS of a second???? You realize that makes the difference between a 4.37 and a 4.57........... absolutely nothing except the timing of the guy's thumb. And whether or not he blinked.

If he ran a 4.57 no one would care.

There's a reason the guy played for Maryland.

He's 6'3", barely bigger than many cornerbacks and significantly smaller than recent first round TE's like Bubba Franks and Ben Watson. So he looks good running on a track without pads on, and he can do agility drills that don't mean squat between the lines. So what, so does every olympic athlete. Why not draft them too? Can anyone say Mike Mamula?

This guy has bust written all over him. Let someone above us make the mistake and give us more quality talent to choose from.

Being a Maryland season ticket holder the last three years, I've been able to see this kid play several times. He is an absolute stud TE on the college level. At the time he signed with Maryland, they were looking like they were starting to come on in the ACC. Plus he grew up in Washington, DC which is about 20 minutes away. He may be a bust a la Mamula, but that's a statement with no real basis. You can say that about any college player who did well on the lower level. The big difference between Davis and Mamula is that Davis seems to really want to play. Mamula was never all that interested. Without going too much into it; 1. Mamula wasn't sure if he was even going to play football in college. His father really had to convince him. 2. Mamula walked off the team his freshman season. 3. He stayed in the league long enough to be eligible for his pension then got out. Although he was a huge disappointment in Philly, he was still only 26 and healthy. Teams gave him offers, and he turned them down.

Having said all that. I would be seriously disappointed on draft day if we pick him up. Why? Because there is absolutely no reason to right now. It would be great to have a TE with his ability, but the need for OL and DL is so great that there is no logical reason to grab a TE in round one.

[Jan Reimers]

There is a real danger in putting too much stock in combine numbers. PaulB rightfully mentions Mike Mamula, a good college player whose stock really rose when he wowed teams as a combine workout warrior. Mamula lasted 5 mediocre years with the Eagles, and has not been heard of since the 2000 season.

The flip side of Mamula is Ronald McKinnon, a real good player at Division II North Alabama who - because of being only 6' tall and running a 5-plus 40 - was not even drafted. He just completed his 10th productive season in the NFL, most of them as starting MLB for the Arizona Cardinals.

Combine performance is best used as a supplement to a players productivity and heart - if heart could be measured.

[DarbyTheDinosaur]

I agree with TedMock...I live in MD and watched quite a few games over the past years...V Davis was one of the few bright spots this season and the kid can play. Additionally, he is a freak of nature...the guy can squat with two Greyhounds propped on his shoulders...I can recall several times A GAME where the opposing team had to pile on top of V Davis just to tackle him. He keeps the legs churning and doesn't seem to have quit in him.

Does this make him a worthy Number 8? I don't know, but I certainly wouldn't complain if this is who the Bills went with.

[RedEyE]

I've often thought that players speed times should be recorded in sequence, in two seperate parts.

1) Reaction time/ejection speed
and
2) 40 yard time.

The runner starts 45 yards from finish. Within the first 5 yards, time is recorded for reaction speed and the quickness of a player of the line.

Once the player hits the 40 yard start (after the first 5 yards of a complete 45) another clock begins to record total speed from that mark until finish.

Reasons: Some players are just faster off the line, yet can't accelerate once bouncing downfield. While other players are slower off the line and can accelerate immensely downfield.

Kind of like a car and how it's gears are in ratio.

[Michael82]

So what, so does every olympic athlete. Why not draft them too?
If we are going to draft an Olympic athlete...let's draft Jeremy Bloom. :up:

[justasportsfan]

Having said all that. I would be seriously disappointed on draft day if we pick him up. Why? Because there is absolutely no reason to right now. It would be great to have a TE with his ability, but the need for OL and DL is so great that there is no logical reason to grab a TE in round one. now that Moulds may not return we may need a replacement which means he may not be a complete waste if we draft him and fill our holes via FA'cy. He's got the speed of a wr (maybe he can move to that position) and if Everett pans out, we're set at the receiving corps.

[justasportsfan]

If we are going to draft an Olympic athlete...let's draft Jeremy Bloom. :up:
I don't think he can run well on skis .

[Bill Cody]

I didn't say .2 was meaningless on the field. Try reading you dolt. Go ahead, read it. I said that humans can't accurately and precisely measure the difference between 4.37 and 4.57.

Look up the definition of accurate and precise before you post any more stupidity.


I didn't assume ANYTHING about NFL teams. What I did say was that a 40 yard dash time on a track in shorts is COMPLETELY WORTHLESS.

I'm comparing him to mike mamula based on the idea that he's going to rocket up the draft board based not on his on-field prowess but on how good he looks in shorts.

Isn't that what stopwatches do? Are you saying humans can't accurately time a man running? :coocoo: Jump back onto the turnip truck Paul it's leaving without you.:krusty: And if the 40 is worthless in shorts, how is it you know this and the NFL hasn't been let in on this secret for the past 20 years?:haha: It's funny, there were some comparing Merriman to Mamula last year after he improved his draft position in the combine. That talk seems to have quieted down now hasn't it. The combine is performed in shorts. So what? EVERYONE is in shorts- it's a level competition. Davis is going to be a great player.

[X-Era]

Not sure what the olymics has to do with the combine, but the combine numbers are run both electronically and by hand.

Yeah, me neither. Theres no chance in hell that people who figured out how to measure time down to the millisecond digitally could have talked to the professional sports people about applying those principles to the combine.

No way in hell.

The earth is flat, its impossible to land on the moon, and the combine uses people with slow timing thumbs.

Your right, lets solve that time/space continuum thingy first then we can go on to tough problems like how to measure runners digitally.

[X-Era]

Of course NFL teams take the combine seriously, and their 100% bust-free success rate over the years is a testament to their expertise.

Good call, thers no way that jerks like Jerry Jones, Dan Sneider, and Al Davis would insist that digital timing methods used for a decade in other sports such as the olympics be used in the combine when those owners are expected to spend millions on these players.

Your right, the variability of 40 timing is at least +/- .2 seconds.

But using that variability, doesnt that mean Vernon may have run a 4.17 too?

This is by far the dumbest arguement I have ever wasted my time on. But Im still here, wait thats a probelm I can fix.

[Nighthawk]

I didn't say .2 was meaningless on the field. Try reading you dolt. Go ahead, read it. I said that humans can't accurately and precisely measure the difference between 4.37 and 4.57.

Look up the definition of accurate and precise before you post any more stupidity.


I didn't assume ANYTHING about NFL teams. What I did say was that a 40 yard dash time on a track in shorts is COMPLETELY WORTHLESS.

I'm comparing him to mike mamula based on the idea that he's going to rocket up the draft board based not on his on-field prowess but on how good he looks in shorts.


Paulb, you're sooo off base! The guy came into the combine as the top TE prospect and was being compared to Gonzales, Gates, Winslow & Shockey before he ever worked out! So, that pretty much is all that needs to be said. He was a very good player at Maryland and deserves the hype he is getting...the Bills would be lucky to get him.