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LifetimeBillsFan
03-09-2006, 04:33 AM
No offense to Connor Byrne, whose articles I frequently agree with, and Pat Moran, who are both able to write far more often and prolifically than I could ever hope to, but after reading their latest articles on free agents that the Bills should be looking to sign and some of the other stuff that I have seen on the Internet lately, I have to wonder if some of the people writing these articles were paying attention at all during this past football season or if they are making up their lists simply based on stat sheets and names that they happen to be familiar with. Certainly anyone who paid any attention to how some of the players who are being mentioned in connection with the Bills actually performed would have some serious doubts about whether some of these players would be better than players that the Bills already have on their roster or rookies that they might draft.

For example:

Toniu Fonoti: While it is true that Fonoti finally had a good season for the Chargers two years ago, last season he "blimped up" to close to 400 lbs when he showed up in Minnesota. I happened to watch his inaugural performance in a Vikings' uniform: Fonoti could barely move he was so fat and out of shape--he didn't make it out of the first half before the coaches put his oversized butt on the bench in favor of a rookie who had been embarrassed the week before. In addition to the fact that Fonoti has an injury history, I would have serious doubts about the character of a guy who let himself go to seed that badly in the middle of a season. If Fonoti is healthy, in shape and motivated, fine, but last season he made Benny Anderson look like Larry Allen in his prime. Sorry, but, based on that, I would not celebrate too much if the Bills were to sign him as a FA this off-season.

Tutan Reyes: Reyes finally had a good season last year, after the Panthers tried desperately to replace him the previous off-season. Reyes had been a major disappointment until injuries to the Panthers' offensive line the last two years gave him a second and third chance to step into the starting lineup. Reyes has always had potential and there are some around the league who like him, but, if you read some of the comments by the Panthers' coaches over the last three years, they have seen him as something of an underachiever that they were hoping would finally play up to his talent level. While it is possible that Reyes has finally developed the maturity to be the player that he was expected to be and he is less of a risk than Fonoti, he is still a risk--because you have to ask whether his good play last season was motivated by the fact that he was about to become a free agent.

Kyle Kosier: Did anyone see the Lions' offensive line play last season? Yeah, Joey Harrington stinks and, at this point, Jeff Garcia isn't much better, but it wasn't all on the Lions' coaches and QBs--their offensive line was HORRID! They couldn't protect either QB and couldn't open up holes for Kevin Jones--sound familiar? I know they franchised Jeff Backus and there were many here who were interested in Backus--who was IMHO the Lions' best O-lineman--but why would the Bills want to have anything to do with any of the Lions' other offensive linemen? Kosier is no better than Gandy and may be worse....

Ryan Pickett and Damione Lewis: The same question that I asked about Kosier applies here--did anyone see the Rams' defensive line play last season? While the Rams weren't as bad against the run as the Bills were, teams routinely ran wild on them! And, it was all the linebackers' fault. Now, I'll grant that Pickett really picked up his game last season--compared to previous years when he was being widely considered a total bust by the Rams and their fans--and it is possible that, as with Reyes, he finally figured out what it takes to play in the NFL. But, for all of his talent, Pickett has been an underachiever with the Rams. Lewis, on the other hand, was considered to be more raw than Pickett--a guy who would need time to develop. And, he has taken his time developing. Both are guys who have the talent to be good players in the NFL, but have not yet shown that they are any more than average at best. With the Bills desperately needing DTs, they are probably going to have to sign one of these two, but, based on their past performances, both are risks: are you going to be getting a guy who is on the verge of breaking out or a more talented version of Tim Anderson or a guy who, for all of his talent, is never going to be more than a mediocre disappointment? Right now, there's no way to really tell based on what either one has done in the NFL to date. So, if the Bills sign one of these two guys, it's going to be a gamble--and they had better make sure that they pick the right one. I'm not saying that one of these two won't become a top-flight performer--it could happen--but I would advise taking a very cautious approach until you see how well they play.

Tom Ashworth: It's tough for me to get too critcal of anyone who has payed regularly for the Pats over the last couple of years, but Ashworth is a guy that may not bring as much to a team like the Bills as one might expect from his service with the Pats. Ashworth was a great "sixth man" off the bench for the Pats' offensive line, but was not that effective as a starter--why do you think that he was catching passes out of the backfield on the goal-line at the end of last season instead of in the trenches? Ashworth is not going to help the Bills at LT: whatever you think of B.Belichick, he's no dummy and there is a reason why he stuck with rookie 4th round draft pick N.Kaczur at LT last season--even though Kaczur struggled and the Pats couldn't open holes for their running game all season--and why the Pats' offensive line was worse when Kaczur was out of the lineup. And, it is truly debatable whether Ashworth would be better at RT than Gandy: while Ashworth might be a somewhat better pass blocker, given the struggles of the Pats' offensive line in the running game, Gandy probably has a slight advantage as a run blocker. Ashworth is by no means a stud offensive lineman. While Ashworth (or Neal) would bring some of the Pats' winning attitude to a team that sorely needs it, IMHO it really is questionable whether he would bring anything more than that to the team to justify the cost of signing him. One could argue that the same might hold true for Neal, but, at least, Neal would be a vast improvement over B.Anderson.

Jamie Martin: The only reason to sign Martin is because he worked with Steve Fairchild last season and may be familiar with the offense that Fairchild is going to run in Buffalo. Martin is no better than Kelly Holcomb: the offense that he had to work with in St. Louis was infinitely better last season than the Bills offense and Martin wasn't able to win much with that offense, so what makes anyone think he will be able to win more in Buffalo? The only reason for him to come to Buffalo would be for a paycheck and a last shot at playing a couple more years (Holcomb redux--but at least Holcomb was and is younger). The Bills aren't going to win squat with Martin as their starting QB, so bringing him in will only complicate an already delicate QB situation and take more reps from Holcomb and Losman--probably alienating both of them permanently. Unless Martin is going to come in as Shane Matthews--a cheap, veteran tutor for the younger guys, no thanks. B.Griese and J.McCown probably won't be interested in anything less than a legitimate shot at starting, with limited competition, and at least as much money as Holcomb, if not more. Griese is the only one who actually has won a fair amount of games in the NFL and played consistently enough to be worthy of a starting QB job.

Michael Bennett: Aside from the fact that he will probably want more money than the Bills are going to be willing to pay a back-up RB, the guy has been hurt all of the time and was unable to keep his starting RB job in Minnesota, even though M.Tice LOVED him and gave him every opportunity under the sun to be the main man for the Vikes. Bennett is a straight-line runner who can take it to the house if he gets holes opened for him, but he has no wiggle to make yards where there is no hole and is not a tough runner. So, why would you want him? Gates is cheaper and tougher, although not a proven runner yet, but he won't become a proven runner until he's given a chance to show what he can do. Bennett, just based on his health and how much it will cost to sign him is a big gamble.

There are certainly other free agents whose past performances are as chequered as those I have just mentioned, these are the ones who have been most frequently linked to the Bills, so I'll leave it at this for now. But, I think I've made my point.

While it may be necessary for the Bills to take a chance on one or more of these players in order to, hopefully, address some of the needs that they have in their lineup, based on the recent past performances of these players, it would be wise for Bills fans not to get too excited if the team signs one of these players until the season starts and we get a chance to see how he will play in a Bills' uniform. While a lot of Bills fans have been clamoring for the team to sign one or more of these players, if you have watched them play over the last couple of years, you would know that each one comes with a warning tag that says: "Buyer Beware!"

So, as you read the articles and posts about this free agent or that one this offseason, just keep in mind, Bills fans, to "Be careful what you wish for, for you may get it!" And, with a number of these free agents, the potential to be a bust, based on past performance, is just as great as the potential for stardom.

Night Train
03-09-2006, 04:45 AM
Well stated, LBF. Sometimes , a good used car looks flashy but has a bad engine under the hood. :down:

In the case of the 2 Ram DT's Lewis and Pickett, the Bills just hired the only pro DL coach they've ever had in Bill Kollar. If they choose to go after one or both, I'd have to think Kollar believes they can play and help this team. Who am I to argue over his knowledgeable assessment ?

LifetimeBillsFan
03-09-2006, 05:38 AM
Well stated, LBF. Sometimes , a good used car looks flashy but has a bad engine under the hood. :down:

In the case of the 2 Ram DT's Lewis and Pickett, the Bills just hired the only pro DL coach they've ever had in Bill Kollar. If they choose to go after one or both, I'd have to think Kollar believes they can play and help this team. Who am I to argue over his knowledgeable assessment ?

I agree with you Night Train, but what bothers me is that there are people who are going nuts over these two guys, saying that the Bills should/will sign one or both who must not have seen the Rams defense play with these two in the game because they are making them sound like they will (not might) be the answer to the Bills' DT woes.

I know who I liked better of the two when I saw the Rams, but I will defer to the Bills' coaches on who they think will fit what they are trying to do and I won't damn them it they don't sign either one. Even the one free agent that I am really hoping that the Bills will want to sign on defense--Rocky Bernard--comes with baggage because he was an underachiever before last season, too. But, he busted out with some really nice numbers and was outstanding in ever game that I saw him play the last two years, so I think there is a pretty good chance he will be a player. Still, if the Bills don't go after him hard with the money they have and the need that they have at DT, I will have to have some faith that Marv Levy and Dick Jauron and Co. have some idea of what they are looking for. I've seen too many free agent busts to believe that every guy out there that looks like a fit is actually going to be a good player after he has been signed.

Night Train
03-09-2006, 06:09 AM
Well stated.

People always get excited over new toys, even if they're not that great. It's just enthusiasm and postive thinking. Sometimes blind but certainly not discouraged. :peace:

X-Era
03-09-2006, 06:28 AM
I agree with you Night Train, but what bothers me is that there are people who are going nuts over these two guys, saying that the Bills should/will sign one or both who must not have seen the Rams defense play with these two in the game because they are making them sound like they will (not might) be the answer to the Bills' DT woes.

I know who I liked better of the two when I saw the Rams, but I will defer to the Bills' coaches on who they think will fit what they are trying to do and I won't damn them it they don't sign either one. Even the one free agent that I am really hoping that the Bills will want to sign on defense--Rocky Bernard--comes with baggage because he was an underachiever before last season, too. But, he busted out with some really nice numbers and was outstanding in ever game that I saw him play the last two years, so I think there is a pretty good chance he will be a player. Still, if the Bills don't go after him hard with the money they have and the need that they have at DT, I will have to have some faith that Marv Levy and Dick Jauron and Co. have some idea of what they are looking for. I've seen too many free agent busts to believe that every guy out there that looks like a fit is actually going to be a good player after he has been signed.

MY problem with your comments is that its what you call "problems", with no solutions.

Your long read simply says Damione Lewis and Ryan Pickett arent all pro's, no kidding. Thats why we can get them for mid level money rather than paying a fortune.

If you look carefully at my posts, I have said Id be happy with ANY of Hovan (now off the market), Tripplett, Lewis, and Pickett. Yes, you can add in Bernard.

What we are talking about here is are any of the aforementioned players better than Ron Edwards? YES...ALL! Thats an upgrade at DT to me. The harder question is, are any of them better than Sam Adams? I would yes, but thats arguable.

I am not clamoring for an all pro DT, there aint any out there. What I want is an upgrade and any of those guys mots likely is.

If youve got a solution that seems better, lets hear it. If not, why question moves that would upgrade our DT spots because the new players arent pro-bowlers?

vicmantak
03-09-2006, 06:32 AM
Lifetime,

Great ARTICLE and thanks for share your point of view.
IMHO Guard should be considered the key-position to make this team competitive and I think the Bills will be sorely mistaken if they try to address this position with any of the mediocre options you mentioned before.

I was searching something about Guards, and I can only tell you that it looks like Toniu Fonoti simply represents the most mediocre option. For some reasons San Diego trade him and it seems that Minnesota let him go for the same reasons. The most important thing is that it's clear that Minnesota improved pass protection since Fonoti arrived there but it's also clear that they were not able to establish the run.

Numbers and stadistics don't lie and I cannot understand why the hell Bills FO is interested on DTs from teams that couldn't stop the run! Ryan Pickett and Damione Lewis were drilled through the entire season and I don't want to see what happens if we add London Fletcher to this combo.

On the other hand, I think Jamie Martin and Michael Bennett are viable options. Both matches Bills needs but I always wonder if depth is something basic or intelligent to address via Free Agency...

EDS
03-09-2006, 08:11 AM
Couldn't agree more. Seems alot of people want change for change sake, rather then look at things rationally with a view to how they help the Bills short and long term competitiveness.

I have questions as to whether Pickett or Lewis are any better then Ron Edwards. For that reason alone I am still on the DT in first round and guard in round 2 bandwagon.

Meathead
03-09-2006, 08:49 AM
No offense to Connor Byrne, whose articles I frequently agree with, and Pat Moran, who are both able to write far more often and prolifically than I could ever hope to,
ill take that as a compliment

Tatonka
03-09-2006, 08:49 AM
the only two guys on your list of 10 players that i see people "wishing" for are lewis and pickett...

who the hell wants bennett and martin, and the likes of the other guys on your list. i dont.

DraftBoy
03-09-2006, 02:12 PM
Numbers and stadistics don't lie and I cannot understand why the hell Bills FO is interested on DTs from teams that couldn't stop the run! Ryan Pickett and Damione Lewis were drilled through the entire season and I don't want to see what happens if we add London Fletcher to this combo.



Stats Dont lie and thats the truth, here are some stats that certainly shouldnt lie;

Sam Adams;
04-26tck 5 sacks
05-15tck 3 sacks

Pat Williams;
04-37tck 2.5 sacks
05-41tck 1.5 sacks

Ron Edwards;
04-13tck 4 sacks
05-4tck 0 sacks <---IR

Damione Lewis;
04-26tck 5 sacks
05-27tck 1 sack

Ryan Pickett;
04-41tck 2 sacks
05-47tck 2 sacks


Little bit of math;

Pat Williams + Sam Adams=
2004-63 tackles and 7.5 sacks
2005-56 tackles and 4.5 sacks

Damione Lewis + Ryan Pickett=
2004-67 tackles and 7 sacks
2005-74 tackles and 3 sacks


So where do the stats show you that Pickett and Lewis would be a bad pickup even though they outproduced Adams and Williams the past two seasons?

mysticsoto
03-09-2006, 02:17 PM
Stats Dont lie and thats the truth, here are some stats that certainly shouldnt lie;

Sam Adams;
04-26tck 5 sacks
05-15tck 3 sacks

Pat Williams;
04-37tck 2.5 sacks
05-41tck 1.5 sacks

Ron Edwards;
04-13tck 4 sacks
05-4tck 0 sacks <---IR

Damione Lewis;
04-26tck 5 sacks
05-27tck 1 sack

Ryan Pickett;
04-41tck 2 sacks
05-47tck 2 sacks


Little bit of math;

Pat Williams + Sam Adams=
2004-63 tackles and 7.5 sacks
2005-56 tackles and 4.5 sacks

Damione Lewis + Ryan Pickett=
2004-67 tackles and 7 sacks
2005-74 tackles and 3 sacks


So where do the stats show you that Pickett and Lewis would be a bad pickup even though they outproduced Adams and Williams the past two seasons?

First of all, Sam and Pat were not in a scheme that had them getting sacks. They clogged the middle and forced RBs to try and run outside instead of through them. That type of plan that forces offenses to change up doesn't show up in stats. And in 2005, Pat was not there, so that last stat doesn't count. What should show up is that Pat and Sam together were in a very high ranked defense (#3 and/or #2) and that it was considerably worse when the tandem was broken up.

Devin
03-09-2006, 02:17 PM
Stats can lie DB.

DraftBoy
03-09-2006, 02:19 PM
Stats can lie DB.


Ohh im well aware but if you scroll up 5 or so posts a different poster said they dont and used it as a negative against these two, im wondering whats stats he's reffering to, would of been better had I quoted it probably.

DraftBoy
03-09-2006, 02:23 PM
First of all, Sam and Pat were not in a scheme that had them getting sacks. They clogged the middle and forced RBs to try and run outside instead of through them. That type of plan that forces offenses to change up doesn't show up in stats. And in 2005, Pat was not there, so that last stat doesn't count. What should show up is that Pat and Sam together were in a very high ranked defense (#3 and/or #2) and that it was considerably worse when the tandem was broken up.


So let me get this straight you sighting that they dont get sacks even though they had more sacks every year as a tandem than Lewis and Pickett did who also are not known for getting sacks. The stats for 05 hold bc while Sam did not have a good partner Pat had arguable a better partner in Kevin Williams, also keep in mind Pickett and Lewis do not play exclusively together for STL they also have DT Jimmy Kennedy who plays a good deal. You last sentence is tough to follow bc you make it appear as though Pat and Sam were a big part of us having a high D (which I dont disagree with) and then a huge part of us having a bad one when in fact Nate had a much worse year, Spikes got hurt, Posey played like crap. So there are alot more factors. Hell even the dominant year on D in 04, Lewis and Pickett recorded more tackles than Adams and Williams and they are four of the same type of players. Collapse the pocket and force runners to the outside.

Devin
03-09-2006, 02:23 PM
Well Regardless, there arent gonna be a whole lot of DT's that fit our system available. Lewis and Pickett are probably on the short list of choices.

DraftBoy
03-09-2006, 02:26 PM
Agreed of those available in both FA and draft there may only be 4 or so.

Lewis
Pickett
Benard
Bunkley

Ngata doesnt fit the new scheme bc he is a 2-gap DT and we are moving to a 1-gap scheme. The pickings are real slim and we need to move quickly.

mysticsoto
03-09-2006, 03:30 PM
So let me get this straight you sighting that they dont get sacks even though they had more sacks every year as a tandem than Lewis and Pickett did who also are not known for getting sacks. The stats for 05 hold bc while Sam did not have a good partner Pat had arguable a better partner in Kevin Williams, also keep in mind Pickett and Lewis do not play exclusively together for STL they also have DT Jimmy Kennedy who plays a good deal. You last sentence is tough to follow bc you make it appear as though Pat and Sam were a big part of us having a high D (which I dont disagree with) and then a huge part of us having a bad one when in fact Nate had a much worse year, Spikes got hurt, Posey played like crap. So there are alot more factors. Hell even the dominant year on D in 04, Lewis and Pickett recorded more tackles than Adams and Williams and they are four of the same type of players. Collapse the pocket and force runners to the outside.

Oh, I didn't know that you had used Pat with Kevin as a stat also, I just saw that you combined them...

Yes, I do believe alot of last year's woes were on not having a good Dline. I think Clements suffered a great deal for it b'cse QBs had alot more time to throw and though TKO injury did hurt us, we were doing just as bad before he left. I think that alot of Gray's defense was predicated on run stuffing the middle and clogging the entire center of the line so that either you had to run to the sides (giving time for our fast LBs to get there) or you had to resort to throwing. Mediocre offenses, like the ones we mostly faced in 2004, became two-dimensional. With the loss of our run stuffing ability, and playing harder teams, it all fell apart from there on and made Clements look foolish. But no, I don't blame it all on him. I felt that losing Pat completely handicapped the scheme that had been implemented and neither Gray nor Mularkey was savvy enough to adapt with what we had...

DraftBoy
03-09-2006, 03:45 PM
Oh, I didn't know that you had used Pat with Kevin as a stat also, I just saw that you combined them...

Yes, I do believe alot of last year's woes were on not having a good Dline. I think Clements suffered a great deal for it b'cse QBs had alot more time to throw and though TKO injury did hurt us, we were doing just as bad before he left. I think that alot of Gray's defense was predicated on run stuffing the middle and clogging the entire center of the line so that either you had to run to the sides (giving time for our fast LBs to get there) or you had to resort to throwing. Mediocre offenses, like the ones we mostly faced in 2004, became two-dimensional. With the loss of our run stuffing ability, and playing harder teams, it all fell apart from there on and made Clements look foolish. But no, I don't blame it all on him. I felt that losing Pat completely handicapped the scheme that had been implemented and neither Gray nor Mularkey was savvy enough to adapt with what we had...


See and now your making my point for me. We no longer have Gray we are switching over to a whole new D scheme. Lewis and Pickett are perfect for this scheme and that evident bc the STL Dline coach was brought in and he taught the scheme in STL. The guys know the calls, the formations, the stunts. They could be leaders and teachers to the young kids. Sign these two to mid-level deals and take Huff round 1, pretty much suring up our D and taking care of the OL in the 2nd and 3rd.

mysticsoto
03-10-2006, 08:15 AM
See and now your making my point for me. We no longer have Gray we are switching over to a whole new D scheme. Lewis and Pickett are perfect for this scheme and that evident bc the STL Dline coach was brought in and he taught the scheme in STL. The guys know the calls, the formations, the stunts. They could be leaders and teachers to the young kids. Sign these two to mid-level deals and take Huff round 1, pretty much suring up our D and taking care of the OL in the 2nd and 3rd.

To tell you the truth, I don't understand what Jauron/Fairchild are looking for. If you want a DT that charges after the QB - that was Adams specialty. That was why he fought so much last year and ended up getting pulled out for some plays. He did not want to sit there and clog the middle - he wanted to charge after the QB. Our coaches are saying this is what they want, but yet let him go saying he doesn't fit into their scheme. If they don't want him there b'cse of age, or b'cse he's perceived to be a cancer or b'cse of problems managing him - then say that. But don't say he doesn't fit the scheme and announce the very scheme that he excels at...

LifetimeBillsFan
03-10-2006, 12:01 PM
A couple of quick thoughts:

1.) Statistics don't always tell how good a player is--especially when it comes to line play. The number of tackles and sacks that a player doesn't always show how effective that player is--if he's playing between two guys who get double-teamed a lot, is getting most of his tackles 3-5 yards down the field and is getting sacks because he is ignoring his other responsibilites and leaving his teammates out to dry, it doesn't matter how many tackles or sacks he has. Just like with height, weight, 40-times, etc., you have to watch a player play to know how good he can play and whether he will play well in your system.

2.) Like Mystic, I have some questions about why M.Levy and D.Jauron decided to cut S.Adams. IMHO, Adams still has enough left and can play the system that they are installing well enough to still have something to contribute to the team on-the-field--especially given the team's weakness at the DT position. So, I wonder if his release, along with some of the other moves that they have made, is not part of their attempt to send a message to anyone who might be or support a "lockerroom lawyer". Certainly the fact that they offered T.Vincent a FO job (which he refused) before deciding to keep him, the release of several veteran team "leaders" and the fact that they have left Moulds hanging out to dry, knowing that he would like nothing better than to be cut so that he can hook up with a contending team, are all things that the returning Bills players are aware of. After seeing how ML and RW handled Mike Mularkey, I have to suspect that cutting Adams had more to do with the lockerroom than what he could bring to the team on the field.

3.) My point was that while some of these players may help the Bills, too often they are being presented and/or perceived as players who will improve the team without regard for how poorly they have played at times. While I happen to think that some of these players probably would help the Bills, I deliberately chose not to include my thoughts in this regard in my post because I was trying to make the point that all of these players have chequered pasts and have played so poorly at times that each has the potential to be a serious bust. While some of these players could make the Bills a better team if they continue to develop and/or play as well as they have at times, my point is that, if you have watched them play, you would also have to conclude that at times each has played so poorly that none is a "sure-thing" by any means and it would be a mistake, after reading about these players, to automatically perceive them as such. Some of them may help the Bills be a better team, but that's no guarantee that they will.

4.) I have a lot of respect for Connor Byrne and Pat Moran, in particular, and really appreciate all of the work that they put into their writing. I know it is not easy to write as consistently as they do and, while I don't always agree with them, I think that they both do a great job of writing interesting and informative articles about the Bills. And, I also agree with a lot of the things that they have written about the team--in fact, I sometimes wonder if Byrne is reading my mind! So, I hope that they will take my comments more as a compliment (I read your articles, guys, and think that they are good enough to be worth commenting on!) than as a criticism and will see them as a cautionary compliment/addendum to what they have written that will add another perspective for those who are interested in the Bills.

patmoran2006
03-10-2006, 01:00 PM
Excellent article, and good points.
Solid teams are built on acquiring under the radar guys who come in with less fanfare and contribute more than their more expensive counterparts.
Well said.