A "free" free agent.

[patmoran2006]

This is a serious question..

If Antonio Gates, Kevin Shaffer and Ryan Pickett by legal loop-hole ALL became free agents right now at this very second......

And the Buffalo Bills had first dibs at one of them.

Which one would you take?

[Kerr]

Gates hands down.

[patmoran2006]

me too, he's a sick freak.. Drew Brees should give him half that $60 million.

[Bill Brasky]

Gates, no question.

1) Buffalo hasn't had an impact TE in years.
2) TE's are vital to young QB development, esp one with his skills.
3) He's a better pass catching option than any of the "#2 WR's" on the current depth chart.

[clumping platelets]

Shaffer

[ajsdx]

I'm assuming that even in this hypothetical situation we have to pay the free agent market value -- in that case I go with Shaffer too. Then Pickett, then Gates. If you mean "free" as in "no cost" I'll pick Gates first.

[Night Train]

So this is leading to " so we should draft Vernon Davis " , correct ?

[ICE74129]

This is a serious question..

If Antonio Gates, Kevin Shaffer and Ryan Pickett by legal loop-hole ALL became free agents right now at this very second......

And the Buffalo Bills had first dibs at one of them.

Which one would you take?

Shaffer.

[Billsrock4life]

definetly Gates we don't have a proven threat at TE and thats wat gates is

[lynobx]

So this is leading to " so we should draft Vernon Davis " , correct ?

Yeah, you can never have enough TEs. This thing about needing O and D linemen is just an illusion.

[HHURRICANE]

This is a serious question..

If Antonio Gates, Kevin Shaffer and Ryan Pickett by legal loop-hole ALL became free agents right now at this very second......

And the Buffalo Bills had first dibs at one of them.

Which one would you take?

What was the point of this thread?

If we could go back in time and bring back OJ from 1972 would we get rid of Willis?! Let's have a poll on this as well. Geez, it must be a slow news day!!!:dead:

[Dr. Lecter]

Gates.

But if this leads to'draft Davis over Ngata/Buckley and Justice' you are starting with a misleading and inaccurate premise, so the answer Gates means nothing.

[ICE74129]

Gates.

But if this leads to'draft Davis over Ngata/Buckley and Justice' you are starting with a misleading and inaccurate premise, so the answer Gates means nothing.

come on Doc you know what this is all about. This is worse than a skunk trying to pass it's self off as the typical neighborhood kitty...

[patmoran2006]

What was the point of this thread?

If we could go back in time and bring back OJ from 1972 would we get rid of Willis?! Let's have a poll on this as well. Geez, it must be a slow news day!!!:dead:

You want to know the point of this thread, here it is... Maybe people will actually read unbiased too, though I highly doubt it.

Kevin Shaffer is a good tackle. There are plenty of other Kevin Shaffer's however.. Bryant McKinnie, Jeff Backus, Jamal Brown and Robert Gallery are all good and pretty much on the same level.

Ryan Pickett is a good defensive tackle.. There are other Ryan Pickett's however. Rocky Bernard, Pat Williams, Kris Jenkins and Gerard Warren all are all good and pretty much on the same level.

There aint but one Antonio Gates, and everybody knows this.

How could you not take Antonio Gates?

It does to no one's surprise, relate to the draft.. How could you NOT take Vernon Davis over Winston Justice or Bunkley?

Use a rookie comparision as above.

Winston Justice is the best at his position (I dont even count Brick), but there is plenty of depth at the position. ONly Eric WInston is projected as a first rounder. That means between rounds 2-3 Marcus McNeil, Andrew Whitworth, Jeremy Trueblood, Ryan O'Callaghan, Johnathan Scott and Darren Colledge.

Bunkley (or Ngata if he's your preference) is the best at his position but there is plenty of round two and three depth after him: Gabe Watson, Claude Wroten, Jesse Mahelona, Montavious Stanley, John McCargo, Dusty Dvoracek, Rod Wright and Jonhathan Lewis provide a great amount of depth.

There is only one Vernon Davis. read previous threads for his impact as I dont need to spell it out again.

EVeryone EVERYDAY on here talks about these pittsburgh and denver's building their offensive line and teams through the draft.. Fine.

Go look at EVERY ONE Of those teams and see how many people on those offensive lines were first-round picks.

Denver has taken an offensive linemen in the first round once in the last 10 years; Foster in 2003.

Pittsburgh has taken an offensive linemen in the first rounce twice in the last seven years; both guards Faneca and Simmons and both were picked late in round one, 26 and 32.

The last two times Pitt has picked in the first half of round one, they took Big Ben and Polamalu.

It doesn't take a scientiest to figure out how weak the Bills are on each side of the Ball. But when you have a top 8 picks you have to take a player that can be a FRANCHISE player at that spot. Vernon Davis is that guy.

They can be like a Den and Pitt and draft good lineme throughout the bulk of the draft.. Most of Den and Pitt's line are stocked with second, third and even fourth round picks..

If Marv is smart with this draft, he can have his cake AND eat it to..
Round 1- Davis
Round 2- Best OT
Round 3 BOTH PICKS (Best DTs)
Round 4- Best Guard

[patmoran2006]

It doesnt matter.. Its the same premise.

[lordofgun]

Good thread! I want Vernon!

[Dr. Lecter]

It doesnt matter.. Its the same premise.
No it is not.

You are talking about an unproven rookie (actually several of them in Davis, Bunkley, Justice, etc). You also ignored the possibility of Huff. Any or all of them might be busts. Furthermore the projected spread between Davis and Justice and Bunkley is not as wide as the value of Gates and Shaffer or Pickett. Finally, depending on teh cost I might actually take Shaffer AND Pickett since in the real world NFL the cost for the two would equal the cost of one Gates. (Another fallacy in your logic on the original premise - all 3 do not cost the same) The Bills also have the option of trading down, taking Justice, and getting a quality player in the 2nd round at another position (DT, DE, S, OL, TE, etc.).

I also don't think ANY quality NFL draft person would sit around and say 'You must draft this position in this round" Once a team gets by the 1st and maybe 2nd round, they should take the best player available. If it is a RB, so be it.

BTW, since you are using Gates as an example can you tell us where he was drafted?

[patmoran2006]

I respect and applaud Marv's committment to getting a better line as a top priority.

It doesnt mean you CANT do it through more FA signings and rounds 2-7 of the draft.

You dont pass up Franchise players for NEEDS in the first round.. We did it last time by taking MIke Williams over Roy Wiliams.. how did that work out?

And btw, I can list 10 tackles taken AFTER Fat Mike that are better and I wont include first rounders either.

[Dr. Lecter]

Mike was a bust. Most (if not nearly all) had him ranked as a difference maker.

Here is another view: Would you rather have Orlando Pace or Jeremy Shockey?

[patmoran2006]

Mike was a bust. Most (if not nearly all) had him ranked as a difference maker.

Here is another view: Would you rather have Orlando Pace or Jeremy Shockey?

I named all guys all with around the same experience..
I"d take Shockey of course, because Orlando is about to break down .


Plus, that's not on target with the question.. Lets say you meant Walter Jones and not Pace.. in that case I'd say Walter Jones of course. He's clearly the best.

Just like Brick is clearly the best.. I'd take Brick over Vernon Davis in that case.. But Winston Justice, no.

And Lechter, there's not a player in this draft this or any year that we know for sure will be a bust or not..

I"m this strong on Davis because I think he's going to be one of the best players in the NFL. I think hes going to be the Jerry Rice of his position.. THerefore, he's my pick over any linemen in round 1 (outside of Brick) and I put my focus on the line on the remainder of day one.

TD's stupid picks has some of you guys haunted about taking the best player available.

[Saratoga Slim]

I've never been against drafting Davis, but good post. I think you're right about the DT and OT prospects at #8 being not-quite top ten talent, perhaps comparable to a Kevin Shaeffer or Ryan Pickett. Put that way, it does seem like a waste of a top 10 pick to miss out on taking an elite prospect like Davis (or Hawk/Huff/Williams/Brick should something strange happen).

[Mski]

Mike was a bust. Most (if not nearly all) had him ranked as a difference maker.

Here is another view: Would you rather have Orlando Pace or Jeremy Shockey?

i would go with shockey hands down, yes pace is a top 3 tackle in the nfl but i would rather have someone thats just decent at tackle and someone who can completely change a game like shockey or gates

[Dr. Lecter]

No, the huge number of holes on this team have me concerned about taking a position that is not a pressing need (assuming Everett is healthy) when there are players available that can help and maybe even getting 2 players for the price of one.

[Saratoga Slim]

I respect and applaud Marv's committment to getting a better line as a top priority.

It doesnt mean you CANT do it through more FA signings and rounds 2-7 of the draft.

You dont pass up Franchise players for NEEDS in the first round.. We did it last time by taking MIke Williams over Roy Wiliams.. how did that work out?

And btw, I can list 10 tackles taken AFTER Fat Mike that are better and I wont include first rounders either.

Mike Williams WAS drafted as a franchise player. he was the Brick of his draft class. hindsight is 20-20.

[Dr. Lecter]

i would go with shockey hands down, yes pace is a top 3 tackle in the nfl but i would rather have someone thats just decent at tackle and someone who can completely change a game like shockey or gates

LT is the most important position in the game, outside of QB.

To take Shockey over a guy that is behind Jones and maybe Ogden is lunacy.

[patmoran2006]

Mike Williams WAS drafted as a franchise player. he was the Brick of his draft class. hindsight is 20-20.

No he wasnt.. Brick is the 100% undisputed best tackle in this draft..

A lot of people, nearly 50% had McKinnie rated higher than Mike Williams.

[patmoran2006]

LT is the most important position in the game, outside of QB.

To take Shockey over a guy that is behind Jones and maybe Ogden is lunacy.

Yes it is (LT) and I said I'd take Brick first.. I also said I'd take Walter Jones over Shockey.. I said no to Pace only because of his age..

I dont think at number eight Winston Justice or Haloti Nagata are worth it.. There is depth at both positions and I'm Im' not sure they are all that beter than what's there in the same spots at rounds 2 and 3.. Brick is the exception.

If Brick isnt there (and he wont) and Davis is gone (I think SF takes him at 5). I'll go one further.. I'd take Michael Huff beore Ngata or Justice as well.

I LOVE the DEPTH at OT and DT this year.. and if Michael Huff can be my Troy Polamalu my secondary is going to be sick with Nate and McGee back there.

[Dr. Lecter]

Would you be happier with trading down and getting (for example) Bunkley and McNeill (in rd. 2)?


I would rather those two together over Davis or Huff.

[patmoran2006]

Would you be happier with trading down and getting (for example) Bunkley and McNeill (in rd. 2)?


I would rather those two together over Davis or Huff.

Id agree but unless something funny happens on draft day, you're not getting Bunkley if you trade down unless its trading down less than 2-3 spots.. and your not getting McNeil in round two either unless your picking right at the very top of round two..

id rather have both of them over one player as well.

[Dicknoze69]

If you know for a certainty that Davis will become Gates, then sure, you should draft him.

But there's NO certainty in the draft. NONE. Davis has great physical attributes. There's no denying it. But there's no possible way you can gaurentee he'll be a Pro Bowl Tight End. I know you think he's going to be great. But I'm more interested in what a professional scout thinks, rather than someone who's seen Davis' combine numbers and maybe watched a few games.

I'd try to minimize risk if possible in this draft.

[Mski]

If you know for a certainty that Davis will become Gates, then sure, you should draft him.

But there's NO certainty in the draft. NONE. Davis has great physical attributes. There's no denying it. But there's no possible way you can gaurentee he'll be a Pro Bowl Tight End. I know you think he's going to be great. But I'm more interested in what a professional scout thinks, rather than someone who's seen Davis' combine numbers and maybe watched a few games.

I'd try to minimize risk if possible in this draft.

should we learn from the past mistakes of the cleveland browns?

[patmoran2006]

If you know for a certainty that Davis will become Gates, then sure, you should draft him.

But there's NO certainty in the draft. NONE. Davis has great physical attributes. There's no denying it. But there's no possible way you can gaurentee he'll be a Pro Bowl Tight End. I know you think he's going to be great. But I'm more interested in what a professional scout thinks, rather than someone who's seen Davis' combine numbers and maybe watched a few games.

I'd try to minimize risk if possible in this draft.

Fair enough.. I"ll get you some professional scouts opinions on VErnon Davis for a future thread.