Is this team serious or is Marv covering his ass?

[OpIv37]

Now that we lost both Wells and Indoje (sp?- you know who I mean), I have to wonder if Marv is serious or if he's just playing a giant game of CYA. If he was serious, he should have made better offers to these guys. Now, if one or both lines continue to suck, he has an out line by saying "I attempted to bring guys in- it's not my fault if their old team matched the contract".

Why aren't we pursuing UFA's instead of RFA's, or making RFA's better offers? Why aren't we trying to trade Moulds (instead of lowering his value by making it fairly obvious that he will be released)?

Tripplett and Fowler are a good start, but I'm starting to wonder if Marv senses the urgency on the OL and the DL. When I think of last year's lines, words like "catastrophic" and "humiliating" come to mind, and so far they've only been mildly improved.

[BillsFever21]

They haven't even mildly improved. They have gotten worse up to this point.

[justasportsfan]

Better offers? Some of these guys are not even that much better than what we already have so why offer them so much more?

If Marv thinks Dick is all that, he will trust Dick to be able to put his players in a position to win. That's what BB did when he started rookies in the sb.

I am not saying Dick is at level with BB but Marv must think so if he hired the guy to play chess with BB and Saban.

[OpIv37]

Well I'm not sure I'd go that far. Fowler is better than Teague and losing Mike Williams is addition by subtraction. He was dead weight.

On the defensive side, at this point in their careers Triplett is as good as Adams and doesn't have the attitude problem. We lost Bannan but that's nothing to cry about.

I see steps in the right direction, but they're baby steps when what we really need is a giant leap for mankind.

[justasportsfan]

when what we really need is a giant leap for mankind. I'm surprised you're not a Redskins fan.

[OpIv37]

Better offers? Some of these guys are not even that much better than what we already have so why offer them so much more?



Well if that's true, then we need to be looking elsewhere for more talent- it was clear that we lacked it this past season. If these guys are no better, why waste the time?

[jamze132]

So far, I just don't know what to think of this offseason.

[BillsFever21]

Well I'm not sure I'd go that far. Fowler is better than Teague and losing Mike Williams is addition by subtraction. He was dead weight.

On the defensive side, at this point in their careers Triplett is as good as Adams and doesn't have the attitude problem. We lost Bannan but that's nothing to cry about.

I see steps in the right direction, but they're baby steps when what we really need is a giant leap for mankind.

Bannan isn't anything to cry about? Had we signed him this year from another team he would be considered one of them up and coming stars ready to burst onto the scene and take the NFL by storm.

[OpIv37]

I'm surprised you're not a Redskins fan.

well I think Dan Snyder has already proven that you can't buy a SB. But at least the Skins try to improve in areas where they're lacking every off-season. TD let FA's go and replaced them with no one, and now Marv is pursuing RFA's that you say are no better than what we have. That doesn't exactly sound like a winning strategy either.

[patmoran2006]

Bash Dan Snyder all you want.. At least he will ATTEMPT to put the best team on the field each and every season..

He will spend money to hire real coaches like JOe Gibbs and open his wallet for the best assistants in the league.. He will go out and pay, even overpay for some of the best names out there.



The results havent been there, though they did make the playoffs last year, something I havent seen here in quite a while...

If nothing else Snyder at least gives Redskins fans something to be excited about every year. Anyone who can say with honesty they are excited about this Buffalo Bills team is fooling themselves.

[patmoran2006]

Bannan isn't anything to cry about? Had we signed him this year from another team he would be considered one of them up and coming stars ready to burst onto the scene and take the NFL by storm.

We've signed six Justin Bannon's already this offseason... Bannon is the same thing as the rest of our additions; backup who's started due to injury (Fowler) who hasnt "tapped into his potential" yet.

[EDS]

Well if that's true, then we need to be looking elsewhere for more talent- it was clear that we lacked it this past season. If these guys are no better, why waste the time?

There is this thing called the draft. Most good teams seem to rely on it. My guess is the Bills are going to try and imitate those good teams and build through the draft.

[justasportsfan]

Well if that's true, then we need to be looking elsewhere for more talent- it was clear that we lacked it this past season. If these guys are no better, why waste the time?


Did you ever stop to think that our players were never put in a situation to win by TD and his coaches? The Patriots won all those sb with young players while getting rid of players like Milloy.

We've gone the route of hiring big named players under TD. How did that pan out? Didn't you want change? Now that we're not going after big named FA which is a change in philosophy you guys are whining again?

[justasportsfan]

Bash Dan Snyder all you want.. At least he will ATTEMPT to put the best team on the field each and every season..

He will spend money to hire real coaches like JOe Gibbs and open his wallet for the best assistants in the league.. He will go out and pay, even overpay for some of the best names out there.



The results havent been there, though they did make the playoffs last year, something I havent seen here in quite a while...

If nothing else Snyder at least gives Redskins fans something to be excited about every year. Anyone who can say with honesty they are excited about this Buffalo Bills team is fooling themselves.


I'd rather go with what's proven. Go the Poilan way. Get young playes, let them build chemistry . Snyders way is getting expensive players who have in this league long enough to think that their way on the field is better. Too many Chef's.



Team like Pats, Pitts and Colts are teams that make you look like your not doing anything but whining PAt.

You're losing your credibility. Although you write good articles, people will really see you for what you are based on your posts. A whiner.

[patmoran2006]

There is this thing called the draft. Most good teams seem to rely on it. My guess is the Bills are going to try and imitate those good teams and build through the draft.

Gimme BB, cowher or shannahan and I'll build a roster with NOTHING but draft picks..

Until then, you BETTER be more talented than those teams you compare us two, because Jauron sure as hell isnt going to out coach them.

[OpIv37]

Did you ever stop to think that our players were never put in a situation to win by TD and his coaches? The Patriots won all those sb with young players while getting rid of players like Milloy.

We've gone the route of hiring big named players under TD. How did that pan out? Didn't you want change? Now that we're not going after big named FA which is a change in philosophy you guys are whining again?

I didn't say they needed to be big names- I said they needed to be better than what we have.

And TD got big names for skill positions, but never for the lines.

[Drive 4 Five]

Bash Dan Snyder all you want.. At least he will ATTEMPT to put the best team on the field each and every season..

He will spend money to hire real coaches like JOe Gibbs and open his wallet for the best assistants in the league.. He will go out and pay, even overpay for some of the best names out there.



The results havent been there, though they did make the playoffs last year, something I havent seen here in quite a while...

If nothing else Snyder at least gives Redskins fans something to be excited about every year. Anyone who can say with honesty they are excited about this Buffalo Bills team is fooling themselves.

The Redskins situation is much different from ours. They have few needs to fill in order to compete for a championship while we are a long long way off. In that sense, I don't feel he has overpaid for anyone. With all the needs this team has we cannot afford to be dishing out huge contracts like that. When you're a handful of players away you can and you do whatever is neccessary.

[EDS]

Gimme BB, cowher or shannahan and I'll build a roster with NOTHING but draft picks..

Until then, you BETTER be more talented than those teams you compare us two, because Jauron sure as hell isnt going to out coach them.


Like you would know.

[justasportsfan]

I didn't say they needed to be big names- I said they needed to be better than what we have.

And TD got big names for skill positions, but never for the lines. those guys you mentioned aren;'t all that compared to what we already have. Should we over pay for them then?

[THATHURMANATOR]

I think Marv gave market value or maybe even slightly above to a couple young players with upside. The Teams agreed about their value and resigned them.

[OpIv37]

those guys you mentioned aren;'t all that compared to what we already have. Should we over pay for them then?

you have no problem overpaying for Moulds. Or Nate Clements.

Look, it takes time to develop young talent, and often by the time the young guys develop, the vets are either washed up or have departed via free agency. So you have to bring in guys to fill in those gaps while the younger guys learn the ropes. And sometimes that may mean overpaying. As long as it's not egregious (like the Redskins) and doesn't jeopardize the cap, I could see doing it for the short-term.

[Saratoga Slim]

Did you ever stop to think that our players were never put in a situation to win by TD and his coaches? The Patriots won all those sb with young players while getting rid of players like Milloy.

We've gone the route of hiring big named players under TD. How did that pan out? Didn't you want change? Now that we're not going after big named FA which is a change in philosophy you guys are whining again?

Good boy Justa. Look at the teams with the most consistent success over the past five years: Patriots, Eagles, Indy, Pittsburgh, Carolina, Denver, etc and they all build through the draft and generally avoid throwing money around unless it is towards a final missing piece (i.e. Eagles/TO).

Marv is clearly trying to follow that business model and get away from the TD path. the whining around here is just a lack of patience, which I can understand to some extent b/c we've been out of the playoffs for way too long. But what it comes down to is, do we want Marv to shell out more than he thinks guys like Stephen Neal are worth to maybe get us a wild card berth this year, or do we want him to set up a system of developing young talent that can make us a consistent contender for the foreseeable future?

I hate to watch another 5-11 season, and I don't think we will this year. But I'm OK with 7-9 or 8-8 if it means that we progress towards a system that will put us in the running every year. Pitt, Indy, and Carolina are all small-market teams and if we're going to enjoy their success, its going to come by taking a similar approach. We clearly can't take Dan Snyder's route, we need to play the cards dealt to us as a small, monetarily challenged market.

I realize these are not exactly novel observations around here, but the whining gets annoying when I see the Bills foregoing signings that have immediate fan-appeal with an eye towards longer-term success. I'll be thrilled if we sign Neal, Runyon, or someone similar to help us next year, but I'm not going to ***** if we don't.

[justasportsfan]

you have no problem overpaying for Moulds. Or Nate Clements. .Huh? Who told you that? Crocodile Dundee?


Look, it takes time to develop young talent, and often by the time the young guys develop, the vets are either washed up or have departed via free agency. So you have to bring in guys to fill in those gaps while the younger guys learn the ropes. And sometimes that may mean overpaying. As long as it's not egregious (like the Redskins) and doesn't jeopardize the cap, I could see doing it for the short-term. I would overpay for players like Spikes who back then young and already a beast. I would not overpay for potentials especially the ones you mentioned.

[Saratoga Slim]

you have no problem overpaying for Moulds. Or Nate Clements.

Look, it takes time to develop young talent, and often by the time the young guys develop, the vets are either washed up or have departed via free agency. So you have to bring in guys to fill in those gaps while the younger guys learn the ropes. And sometimes that may mean overpaying. As long as it's not egregious (like the Redskins) and doesn't jeopardize the cap, I could see doing it for the short-term.

the key is knowing WHEN to overpay for gap-fillers, and who to overpay for. We're not keeping Moulds. Clements, with the franchise tag, is kind of another story altogether. I'm glad Marv is not going to overpay right NOW for "good" guys like Neal, Wells etc. We gave Wells an offer of roughly TWICE the Cards' minimum tender, which seemed like a fairly aggressive play.

[OpIv37]

Huh? Who told you that? Crocodile Dundee?
I would overpay for players like Spikes who back then young and already a beast. I would not overpay for potentials especially the ones you mentioned.

you were advocating keeping Moulds yesterday. And I could be confusing you with someone else, but I seem to remember taking a lot of heat from you when I said that giving Clements $5.8 million was a mistake.

[justasportsfan]

you were advocating keeping Moulds yesterday. And I could be confusing you with someone else, but I seem to remember taking a lot of heat from you when I said that giving Clements $5.8 million was a mistake.I am all for keeping Moulds if he rstructures. I've always had that opinion and am not changing it.

Clements? It was right to tag him rather than just let him go to teams like the Pats , Jets and Fins (who desperately need his services) . 5.8 is a huge discount compared to what cb's were going for last year at 8 million. I wouldn't have wanted him to be paid 8M.

Marv came in a situation where Clements was a free agent. Tagging Clements is a way for him to buy time and think about what he could do with Clements. Like I said, letting him go could've hurt us more if he landed to a division rival than paying 5.8 million.

[Gunzlingr]

I think what we offered the 2 RFAs was quite high, and more than fair. They must have been worth it to be matched by their teams, so oh well.

[OpIv37]

I think what we offered the 2 RFAs was quite high, and more than fair. They must have been worth it to be matched by their teams, so oh well.

the problem is that it still doesn't result in the Bills getting better.

[patmoran2006]

Did you ever stop to think that our players were never put in a situation to win by TD and his coaches? The Patriots won all those sb with young players while getting rid of players like Milloy.

We've gone the route of hiring big named players under TD. How did that pan out? Didn't you want change? Now that we're not going after big named FA which is a change in philosophy you guys are whining again?

Actually NE won a super bowl with Lawyer Milloy..
And they had vets like Ted Washington, Willie McGinest, Ty Law and others as well.

They mixed Youth AND veteran leadership..

milloy was cut because BB didnt want to pay him what he wanted.

[OpIv37]

I am all for keeping Moulds if he rstructures. I've always had that opinion and am not changing it.

Clements? It was right to tag him rather than just let him go to teams like the Pats , Jets and Fins (who desperately need his services) . 5.8 is a huge discount compared to what cb's were going for last year at 8 million. I wouldn't have wanted him to be paid 8M.

Marv came in a situation where Clements was a free agent. Tagging Clements is a way for him to buy time and think about what he could do with Clements. Like I said, letting him go could've hurt us more if he landed to a division rival than paying 5.8 million.

Well I agree on keeping Moulds if he restructures, but at this point I think it's pretty obvious that he's not willing to do that.

If you paid $60,000 for a Toyota Camy last year, and I paid $50,000 for a Camry this year, does that mean I got a good deal?

[justasportsfan]

Actually NE won a super bowl with Lawyer Milloy..
And they had vets like Ted Washington, Willie McGinest, Ty Law and others as well.

They mixed Youth AND veteran leadership..

milloy was cut because BB didnt want to pay him what he wanted. and it was proven that he wasn't needed the year after no?

[HAMMER]

I think Marv gave market value or maybe even slightly above to a couple young players with upside. The Teams agreed about their value and resigned them.

Thurm is right, Marv made offers that were at or above market. To have their current teams match, tells me he is looking at the right guys. There are fans that want to see action just for the sake of action. There are also fans that don't understand Buffalo is certainly not right for everyone and we have to compete against cities with a hell of a lot more to offer a young man with money.

[justasportsfan]

Well I agree on keeping Moulds if he restructures, but at this point I think it's pretty obvious that he's not willing to do that. :up:



If you paid $60,000 for a Toyota Camy last year, and I paid $50,000 for a Camry this year, does that mean I got a good deal? I'd never buy a camry. They are overpriced for an average ride. For that price I could get a BMW or a BENZ :D.

[OpIv37]

:up:

I'd never buy a camry. They are overpriced for an average ride. For that price I could get a BMW or a BENZ :D.

well then there are two things we agree on- I don't think the Camry's worth it either.

[Jeff1220]

I think the initial premise of this thread is just plain silly. Marv just covering his ass? We can question Marv's GM competency, but I don't think we should ever question his desire to make this team a winner. He is not Tom Donahoe and won't put himself before the organization. Marv is >80 and is only here because he wants to be. The guy is a HOFer and I for one don't doubt his intentions at 1BD.

[OpIv37]

I think the initial premise of this thread is just plain silly. Marv just covering his ass? We can question Marv's GM competency, but I don't think we should ever question his desire to make this team a winner. He is not Tom Donahoe and won't put himself before the organization. Marv is >80 and is only here because he wants to be. The guy is a HOFer and I for one don't doubt his intentions at 1BD.

I'm not suggesting that he doesn't want to win- I'm just saying he may be looking for an excuse in case his plan to win doesn't work. Good intentions don't always translate to good results (see Drew Bledsoe).

[patmoran2006]

and it was proven that he wasn't needed the year after no?

Ya and they also got a "free agent" by the name of Rodney Harrison.. Ever hear of him?

[patmoran2006]

I think the initial premise of this thread is just plain silly. Marv just covering his ass? We can question Marv's GM competency, but I don't think we should ever question his desire to make this team a winner. He is not Tom Donahoe and won't put himself before the organization. Marv is >80 and is only here because he wants to be. The guy is a HOFer and I for one don't doubt his intentions at 1BD.
that's a great point, and I do agree.


THere is no doubt Marv is doing the best he can.. I've said from day one of FA that its RALPH's fault we got we got coming in, not Marv..

Dont give me no crap an 80 year old GM wants to build over a period.. If Marv had the budget he'd swap FA pickups with the Browns in a SECOND.

[justasportsfan]

Ya and they also got a "free agent" by the name of Rodney Harrison.. Ever hear of him?Harrison wasn't paid the money Milloy would've gotten if he stayed. This is why you don't jump at big named fa's (AKA Milloy) who come with a huge cap when you can get players like Harrison for less.

I hope you learned form your own example.

[HAMMER]

I'm not suggesting that he doesn't want to win- I'm just saying he may be looking for an excuse in case his plan to win doesn't work. Good intentions don't always translate to good results (see Drew Bledsoe).

You obviously have no idea what Marv Levy is about. He is not, and will not look for excuses. He is a man of very high character and intelligence. If the FO screws up I guarantee he will take the blame for everyone. Marv knows what being a leader means.

[patmoran2006]

the problem is that it still doesn't result in the Bills getting better.

I think that was the point of your post to begin with. NOt if the offers were fair.. Its that they were matched and as a result we havent gotten better.

[Saratoga Slim]

Harrison wasn't paid the money Milloy would've gotten if he stayed. This is why you don't jump at big named fa's (AKA Milloy) who come with a huge cap when you can get players like Harrison for less.

I hope you learned form your own example.

ding ding ding! ............and when there is no Rodney Harrison on the market to make up for losing your Milloy, you nonetheless sometimes still have to take your pills and cut Milloy if he's getting paid more than his level of play is worth OR if you have a new system that he doesnt fit.

[Mski]

cutting milloy was the right thing to do, he was making more then he was worth and pass coverage has been his weakness his entire career. yes it hurts that he's gone and we have gotten anyone to replace him that has played to his caliber but hopefully one of the young players will pick up the slack and fill the hole if the issue is not adressed in FA?

[patmoran2006]

cutting milloy was the right thing to do, he was making more then he was worth and pass coverage has been his weakness his entire career. yes it hurts that he's gone and we have gotten anyone to replace him that has played to his caliber but hopefully one of the young players will pick up the slack and fill the hole if the issue is not adressed in FA?

I disagree with cutting Milloy, BUT that's a real good point.

[Buffalogic]

Yeah, we are bringing in all these players that we have no intention of signing? :rolleyes: Riiight.

This is all intended to be a cover up because the FO doesn't want to sign players that visit with them??