Marv and the Draft [Archive] - BillsZone.com

ParanoidAndroid

03-23-2006, 08:10 PM

Forked from: I miss Tom Donahoe! (http://www.billszone.com/fanzone/showpost.php?postid=1412304)

Personally, I can't wait until Marv drafts. He had a lot of influence when we drafted:
Jim Kelly
Frank Reich
Andre Reed
Bruce Smith
Thurman Thomas
Will Wolford
Mark Pike
Howard Ballard
Shane Conlan
Jeff Wright
Carlton Bailey
Don Beebe
Carwell Gardener
Glenn Parker
Al Edwards
Henry Jones
Phil Hansen

I'll reserve judgement until after a couple of years. If we suck and we're letting go of the players he has acquired, then I'll say he messed up. But if we are winning and most of these acquisitions are still here, then I guess he was right.

The_Philster

03-23-2006, 08:32 PM

too bad those first 4 were already here by the time Marv came in

ParanoidAndroid

03-23-2006, 08:48 PM

Ummm....oh yeah. My face is red. Well, the list after that is pretty sweet, especially if you want to talk O-line and D-line.

The_Philster

03-23-2006, 08:56 PM

:lol: You just got on a roll and forgot the dates, huh?

Mr. Cynical

03-23-2006, 09:35 PM

Personally, I can't wait until Marv drafts. He had a lot of influence when we drafted:
Jim Kelly
Frank Reich
Andre Reed
Bruce Smith
Thurman Thomas
Will Wolford
Mark Pike
Howard Ballard
Shane Conlan
Jeff Wright
Carlton Bailey
Don Beebe
Carwell Gardener
Glenn Parker
Al Edwards
Henry Jones
Phil Hansen

I'll reserve judgement until after a couple of years. If we suck and we're letting go of the players he has acquired, then I'll say he messed up. But if we are winning and most of these acquisitions are still here, then I guess he was right.

IMO those were more Polian's doing than Marv's. Drafting players is one of the primary roles for a GM. Not saying Marv didn't play a hand but if you have to credit someone, it should be Polian.

Here's a look at the Butler/Levy drafts post-Polian, until Marv retired in '97.

<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=2 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR class=bg0 align=left><TD class=bg0 colSpan=5>1994 (http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/years/1994)</TD></TR><TR class=bg1 align=left><TD>Rd</TD><TD>Sel#</TD><TD>Player</TD><TD>Pos.</TD><TD>School</TD></TR><TR class=bg2 vAlign=center align=right height=17><TD align=left>1</TD><TD align=right>27</TD><TD align=left>Jeff Burris</TD><TD align=left>CB</TD><TD align=left>Notre Dame</TD></TR><TR class=bg2 vAlign=center align=right height=17><TD align=left>2</TD><TD align=right>48</TD><TD align=left>Bucky Brooks</TD><TD align=left>WR</TD><TD align=left>North Carolina</TD></TR><TR class=bg2 vAlign=center align=right height=17><TD align=left>2</TD><TD align=right>61</TD><TD align=left>Lonnie Johnson</TD><TD align=left>TE</TD><TD align=left>Florida State</TD></TR><TR class=bg2 vAlign=center align=right height=17><TD align=left>2</TD><TD align=right>64</TD><TD align=left>Sam Rogers</TD><TD align=left>OLB</TD><TD align=left>Colorado</TD></TR><TR class=bg2 vAlign=center align=right height=17><TD align=left>3</TD><TD align=right>81</TD><TD align=left>Marlo Perry</TD><TD align=left>LB</TD><TD align=left>Jackson State</TD></TR><TR class=bg2 vAlign=center align=right height=17><TD align=left>3</TD><TD align=right>98</TD><TD align=left>Corey Louchiey</TD><TD align=left>T</TD><TD align=left>South Carolina</TD></TR><TR class=bg2 vAlign=center align=right height=17><TD align=left>4</TD><TD align=right>130</TD><TD align=left>Sean Crocker</TD><TD align=left>DB</TD><TD align=left>North Carolina</TD></TR><TR class=bg2 vAlign=center align=right height=17><TD align=left>5</TD><TD align=right>158</TD><TD align=left>A.J. Ofodile</TD><TD align=left>TE</TD><TD align=left>Missouri</TD></TR><TR class=bg2 vAlign=center align=right height=17><TD align=left>6</TD><TD align=right>188</TD><TD align=left>Anthony Abrams</TD><TD align=left>DE</TD><TD align=left>Clark Atlanta</TD></TR><TR class=bg2 vAlign=center align=right height=17><TD align=left>6</TD><TD align=right>192</TD><TD align=left>Kevin Knox</TD><TD align=left>WR</TD><TD align=left>Florida State</TD></TR><TR class=bg2 vAlign=center align=right height=17><TD align=left>7</TD><TD align=right>221</TD><TD align=left>Filmel Johnson</TD><TD align=left>DB</TD><TD align=left>Illinois</TD></TR><TR class=bg2 vAlign=center align=right height=17><TD class=bg3 align=left colSpan=5></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=2 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR class=bg0 align=left><TD class=bg0 colSpan=5>1995 (http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/years/1995)</TD></TR><TR class=bg1 align=left><TD>Rd</TD><TD>Sel#</TD><TD>Player</TD><TD>Pos.</TD><TD>School</TD></TR><TR class=bg2 vAlign=center align=right height=17><TD align=left>1</TD><TD align=right>14</TD><TD align=left>Ruben Brown</TD><TD align=left>G</TD><TD align=left>Pittsburgh</TD></TR><TR class=bg2 vAlign=center align=right height=17><TD align=left>2</TD><TD align=right>45</TD><TD align=left>Todd Collins</TD><TD align=left>QB</TD><TD align=left>Michigan</TD></TR><TR class=bg2 vAlign=center align=right height=17><TD align=left>3</TD><TD align=right>76</TD><TD align=left>Marlon Kerner</TD><TD align=left>DB</TD><TD align=left>Ohio State</TD></TR><TR class=bg2 vAlign=center align=right height=17><TD align=left>3</TD><TD align=right>96</TD><TD align=left>Damien Covington</TD><TD align=left>LB</TD><TD align=left>North Carolina State</TD></TR><TR class=bg2 vAlign=center align=right height=17><TD align=left>4</TD><TD align=right>109</TD><TD align=left>Ken Irvin</TD><TD align=left>CB</TD><TD align=left>Memphis</TD></TR><TR class=bg2 vAlign=center align=right height=17><TD align=left>4</TD><TD align=right>113</TD><TD align=left>Justin Armour</TD><TD align=left>WR</TD><TD align=left>Stanford</TD></TR><TR class=bg2 vAlign=center align=right height=17><TD align=left>4</TD><TD align=right>131</TD><TD align=left>Tony Cline</TD><TD align=left>TE</TD><TD align=left>Stanford</TD></TR><TR class=bg2 vAlign=center align=right height=17><TD align=left>5</TD><TD align=right>144</TD><TD align=left>John Holecek</TD><TD align=left>MLB</TD><TD align=left>Illinois</TD></TR><TR class=bg2 vAlign=center align=right height=17><TD align=left>6</TD><TD align=right>185</TD><TD align=left>Shannon Clavelle</TD><TD align=left>DE</TD><TD align=left>Colorado</TD></TR><TR class=bg2 vAlign=center align=right height=17><TD align=left>7</TD><TD align=right>221</TD><TD align=left>Tom Nutten</TD><TD align=left>G</TD><TD align=left>Western Michigan</TD></TR><TR class=bg2 vAlign=center align=right height=17><TD align=left>7</TD><TD align=right>244</TD><TD align=left>Darick Holmes</TD><TD align=left>RB</TD><TD align=left>Portland State</TD></TR><TR class=bg2 vAlign=center align=right height=17><TD class=bg3 align=left colSpan=5></TD></TR><TR class=bg0 align=left><TD class=bg0 colSpan=5>1996 (http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/years/1996)</TD></TR><TR class=bg1 align=left><TD>Rd</TD><TD>Sel#</TD><TD>Player</TD><TD>Pos.</TD><TD>School</TD></TR><TR class=bg2 vAlign=center align=right height=17><TD align=left>1</TD><TD align=right>24</TD><TD align=left>Eric Moulds</TD><TD align=left>WR</TD><TD align=left>Mississippi State</TD></TR><TR class=bg2 vAlign=center align=right height=17><TD align=left>2</TD><TD align=right>53</TD><TD align=left>Gabe Northern</TD><TD align=left>DE</TD><TD align=left>Louisiana State</TD></TR><TR class=bg2 vAlign=center align=right height=17><TD align=left>3</TD><TD align=right>87</TD><TD align=left>Matt Stevens</TD><TD align=left>FS</TD><TD align=left>Appalachian State</TD></TR><TR class=bg2 vAlign=center align=right height=17><TD align=left>4</TD><TD align=right>120</TD><TD align=left>Sean Moran</TD><TD align=left>DE</TD><TD align=left>Colorado State</TD></TR><TR class=bg2 vAlign=center align=right height=17><TD align=left>5</TD><TD align=right>156</TD><TD align=left>Raymond Jackson</TD><TD align=left>CB</TD><TD align=left>Colorado State</TD></TR><TR class=bg2 vAlign=center align=right height=17><TD align=left>6</TD><TD align=right>196</TD><TD align=left>Leon Neal</TD><TD align=left>RB</TD><TD align=left>Washington</TD></TR><TR class=bg2 vAlign=center align=right height=17><TD align=left>6</TD><TD align=right>202</TD><TD align=left>Dusty Zeigler</TD><TD align=left>C</TD><TD align=left>Notre Dame</TD></TR><TR class=bg2 vAlign=center align=right height=17><TD align=left>7</TD><TD align=right>237</TD><TD align=left>Dan Brandenburg</TD><TD align=left>DE</TD><TD align=left>Indiana State</TD></TR><TR class=bg2 vAlign=center align=right height=17><TD align=left>7</TD><TD align=right>244</TD><TD align=left>Jay Riemersma</TD><TD align=left>TE</TD><TD align=left>Michigan</TD></TR><TR class=bg2 vAlign=center align=right height=17><TD align=left>7</TD><TD align=right>249</TD><TD align=left>Eric Smedley</TD><TD align=left>S</TD><TD align=left>Indiana</TD></TR><TR class=bg2 vAlign=center align=right height=17><TD class=bg3 align=left colSpan=5></TD></TR><TR class=bg0 align=left><TD class=bg0 colSpan=5>1997 (http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/years/1997)</TD></TR><TR class=bg1 align=left><TD>Rd</TD><TD>Sel#</TD><TD>Player</TD><TD>Pos.</TD><TD>School</TD></TR><TR class=bg2 vAlign=center align=right height=17><TD align=left>1</TD><TD align=right>23</TD><TD align=left>Antowain Smith</TD><TD align=left>RB</TD><TD align=left>Houston</TD></TR><TR class=bg2 vAlign=center align=right height=17><TD align=left>2</TD><TD align=right>52</TD><TD align=left>Marcellus Wiley</TD><TD align=left>DE</TD><TD align=left>Columbia</TD></TR><TR class=bg2 vAlign=center align=right height=17><TD align=left>4</TD><TD align=right>120</TD><TD align=left>Jamie Nails</TD><TD align=left>G</TD><TD align=left>Florida A&M</TD></TR><TR class=bg2 vAlign=center align=right height=17><TD align=left>5</TD><TD align=right>153</TD><TD align=left>Sean Woodson</TD><TD align=left>DB</TD><TD align=left>Jackson State</TD></TR><TR class=bg2 vAlign=center align=right height=17><TD align=left>6</TD><TD align=right>185</TD><TD align=left>Marcus Spriggs</TD><TD align=left>T</TD><TD align=left>Houston</TD></TR><TR class=bg2 vAlign=center align=right height=17><TD align=left>7</TD><TD align=right>226</TD><TD align=left>Pat Fitzgerald</TD><TD align=left>TE</TD><TD align=left>Texas</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

Mr. Cynical

03-23-2006, 09:41 PM

Looking at that list, a total of 4 OL players were drafted in 4 years: Brown, Nutten, Zielger and Nails. Quite the crop.

Philagape

03-23-2006, 09:57 PM

Levy's strengths as a coach were as a motivator, letting his players play to their strengths, and general philosophy (such as his emphasis on special teams). Eye for outside talent is not something he's really remembered for. What Levy did is take lesser talent (Wright, Hansen, Bailey, Pike, etc.) and get the most out of them.

Philagape

03-23-2006, 09:59 PM

And even those strengths had their limits, like with Bucky Brooks and Todd Collins :ill:

ParanoidAndroid

03-23-2006, 10:47 PM

Looking at that list, a total of 4 OL players were drafted in 4 years: Brown, Nutten, Zielger and Nails. Quite the crop.

Brown is a multi pro-bowler.
Nutten has had a decent, long career including a SB ring in St. Louis as a starter.
Zeigler was a pretty good center before an injury ruined his career.
Nails has been a pretty solid back-up for us in the past.
Spriggs was a decent back-up as well.
Louchiey was mediocre at best and closer to wannabe.
That's 6.

Mr. Cynical

03-23-2006, 11:00 PM

Brown is a multi pro-bowler.
Nutten has had a decent, long career including a SB ring in St. Louis as a starter.
Zeigler was a pretty good center before an injury ruined his career.
Nails has been a pretty solid back-up for us in the past.
Louchiey was mediocre at best and closer to wannabe.

I'll give you Brown, although you expect a good G at #14.
Nutten played 1 game as a Bill, and 1 full season as a Ram.
Ziegler played 3 seasons as a Bill and was picked up as a UFA by NYG. If he was that good, we'd have kept him.
Nails is a humongous, fat laden double cheeseburger. Nothing more.
Louchiey....well, I don't really have to say much more than just his name.

Bottom line is that in the post-Polian era w/ Marv still coaching, we did not build a good OL. You can blame it on Butler, and you should, because the GM is responsible for the draft. My only reason for bringing this up is that you are pinning your hopes on a good draft because of Marv, and all I'm saying is that there is nothing to show he has a knack for drafting.

patmoran2006

03-23-2006, 11:26 PM

I"m glad I didnt write that, the responses would probably be 4 pages deep by now.

The Bills success is due to Polian......However, I think Marv has learned alot from him, and I suspect he's had several convo's with Polian since becoming GM himself.

ParanoidAndroid

03-23-2006, 11:36 PM

I'll give you Brown, although you expect a good G at #14.
Nutten played 1 game as a Bill, and 1 full season as a Ram.
Ziegler played 3 seasons as a Bill and was picked up as a UFA by NYG. If he was that good, we'd have kept him.
Nails is a humongous, fat laden double cheeseburger. Nothing more.
Louchiey....well, I don't really have to say much more than just his name.

Bottom line is that in the post-Polian era w/ Marv still coaching, we did not build a good OL. You can blame it on Butler, and you should, because the GM is responsible for the draft. My only reason for bringing this up is that you are pinning your hopes on a good draft because of Marv, and all I'm saying is that there is nothing to show he has a knack for drafting.

I'm sorry...I understated Ziegler. He was the starting center for the Giants' latest SB bid in 2000.
Nutten was nonetheless talented. I don't think you can say otherwise as he came in and took over the starting role during the SB year and started every game the next year.
Nails was a lard but he bailed us out a few times.
I dunno....I think you are playing them down while I perhaps want to give them the benefit of the doubt, but you have to give Ziegler and Nutten more credit.
Marv is known for being a good evaluater of talent. He sees through the facade. I am hopeful, but for a good reason. What's wrong with hope anyway? I think that's part of being a true fan.

patmoran2006

03-23-2006, 11:42 PM

I'm sorry...I understated Ziegler. He was the starting center for the Giants' latest SB bid in 2000.
Nutten was nonetheless talented. I don't think you can say otherwise as he came in and took over the starting role during the SB year and started every game the next year.
Nails was a lard but he bailed us out a few times.
I dunno....I think you are playing them down while I perhaps want to give them the benefit of the doubt, but you have to give Ziegler and Nutten more credit.
Marv is known for being a good evaluater of talent. He sees through the facade. I am hopeful, but for a good reason. What's wrong with hope anyway? I think that's part of being a true fan.

Everybody you just mentioned there basically did crap for the Buffalo Bills and we're in no position to be helping other teams...

I do get the message you were trying to make though.. Marv should definitely do a good job in the draft as compared to FA because
1- He cant do any worse than what we've done in FA
2- I cant fathom that marv deep down doesnt know it.

Alot of people, ESPECIALLY myself write threads clamoring for Vernon Davis, Huff and a few other players... Based on this FA, there is NO HUMAN way that Levy isnt taking a DT with the first pick and a guard with the second... From there it will be a mix of more linemen and defensive players I suspect.

The_Philster

03-24-2006, 04:58 AM

Nutten played 1 game as a Bill, and 1 full season as a Ram.
http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12593
that looks like more than 1 full season

ParanoidAndroid

03-24-2006, 10:37 AM

Everybody you just mentioned there basically did crap for the Buffalo Bills and we're in no position to be helping other teams...

They were in no position to help other teams? Look again.

bernielivsey_1

03-24-2006, 10:55 AM

:baby:To quote Socraties: Marv will...........Git er done :dork:

DraftBoy

03-24-2006, 11:08 AM

Lets not forget Marv is not the sole person here at the GM helm, and I fullyexpect Modrak to be doing nearly all of our draft day decisions. Here are Modrak's draft picks from 98-01 with the Eagles;

1998
Rd Sel# Player Pos. School
1 11 Tra Thomas T Florida State
3 72 Jeremiah Trotter MLB Stephen F. Austin
3 85 Allen Rossum CB Notre Dame
4 112 Brandon Whiting DE California
4 116 Clarence Love CB Toledo
5 142 Ike Reese OLB Michigan State
7 220 Chris Akins FS Texas
7 240 Melvin Thomas G Colorado

1999
Rd Sel# Player Pos. School
1 2 Donovan McNabb QB Syracuse
2 35 Barry Gardner OLB Northwestern
3 64 Doug Brzezinski G Boston College
4 97 John Welbourn T California
4 128 Damon Moore SS Ohio State
4 130 Na Brown WR North Carolina
6 172 Cecil Martin FB Wisconsin
6 201 Troy Smith WR East Carolina
7 208 Jed Weaver TE Oregon
7 251 Pernell Davis DT Ala.-Birmingham

2000
Rd Sel# Player Pos. School
1 6 Corey Simon DT Florida State
2 36 Todd Pinkston WR Southern Mississippi
2 61 Bobbie Williams G Arkansas
4 99 Gari Scott WR Michigan State
6 171 Thomas Hamner RB Minnesota
6 178 John Frank DE Utah
6 192 John Romero C California

2001
Rd Sel# Player Pos. School
1 25 Freddie Mitchell WR UCLA
2 55 Quinton Caver OLB Arkansas
3 63 Derrick Burgess DE Mississippi
4 121 Correll Buckhalter RB Nebraska
5 147 Tony Stewart TE Penn State
5 155 A.J. Feeley QB Oregon

Not at all bad picks early except for maybe Gardner, Mitchell, and Williams. Im not too worried about the Bills Draft. Modrak is more than capable.

ParanoidAndroid

03-24-2006, 11:13 AM

DraftBoy

03-24-2006, 11:32 AM

Pinkston has been solid when not injured. But we need help on the OL and DL most of all and it seems to be Modrak's specialty.

justasportsfan

03-24-2006, 12:11 PM

Ziegler played 3 seasons as a Bill and was picked up as a UFA by NYG. If he was that good, we'd have kept him.
.He was the starting C of McNally when the giants went to the sb. An OL that made Kerry Collins better than he really was.

ICE74129

03-24-2006, 01:54 PM

Modrak will run this draft, Marv and Ralph will have final approval but This is modrak's draft.

patmoran2006

03-24-2006, 01:58 PM

Mr. Pink

03-24-2006, 03:38 PM

You prove my point more and more everyday.
Why is Marv Levy the Gm of this team if Modrak is running the draft, and Modrak is the guy putting this team together.. If you're right, then I'm right.

Marv Levy is nothing more than a decoration on the door, and you prove it more and more with every statement you make on a daily basis.

All Marv was brought in was two things.....

A. A person liasion to Ralph...someone Ralph could trust and the go between Modrak and himself. Which is fine, as long as everyone is comfortable in the situation.

B. He was brought in to sell tickets. Fans see his face and it stirs up good emotions. People then buy into Bills "fever."

You think that if Modrak was just promoted and Levy wasn't around people would have the same viewpoints of believe in modrak? I honestly believe no. Modrak was here with TD and look at how well that went, people then would be upset about things.

So Levy helps on two fronts, which I give Ralph all the credit in the world for. It was a sound and wise business decision.

patmoran2006

03-24-2006, 03:40 PM

Ya, actually thats a good point.. Agreed.

ParanoidAndroid

03-24-2006, 04:05 PM

Modrak will run this draft, Marv and Ralph will have final approval but This is modrak's draft.

If anyone thinks this is all Modrak's show and Levy doesn't have a huge say in the players we grab, I would say they haven't been paying attention. This isn't a one man show and it wasn't during Marv's first stint here either.
My original question was basically, can Marv be as lucky as he was to get the players he got again...and perhaps...was it more than just luck?
Answer how you wish, but I'm sticking with my original feeling that Marv just has a knack for picking players with heart.

Mr. Cynical

03-25-2006, 10:41 PM

All Marv was brought in was two things.....

A. A person liasion to Ralph...someone Ralph could trust and the go between Modrak and himself. Which is fine, as long as everyone is comfortable in the situation.

B. He was brought in to sell tickets. Fans see his face and it stirs up good emotions. People then buy into Bills "fever."

You think that if Modrak was just promoted and Levy wasn't around people would have the same viewpoints of believe in modrak? I honestly believe no. Modrak was here with TD and look at how well that went, people then would be upset about things.

So Levy helps on two fronts, which I give Ralph all the credit in the world for. It was a sound and wise business decision.

I agree with what you said, although it still doesn't change the fact that the Bills are not likely to get better before both RW and ML are off the field and onto the porch.

Mr. Cynical

03-25-2006, 10:45 PM

http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/12593
that looks like more than 1 full season

A full season = 16 games. Other than in 2000, do you see any other years where he played in all 16 games?

<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=1 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR class=bg3><TD>1998</TD><TD>St. Louis Rams</TD><TD>5</TD><TD>2</TD></TR><TR class=bg2><TD>1999</TD><TD>St. Louis Rams</TD><TD>14</TD><TD>14</TD></TR><TR class=bg3><TD>2000</TD><TD>St. Louis Rams</TD><TD>16</TD><TD>16</TD></TR><TR class=bg2><TD>2001</TD><TD>St. Louis Rams</TD><TD>15</TD><TD>14</TD></TR><TR class=bg3><TD>2002</TD><TD>St. Louis Rams</TD><TD>11</TD><TD>11</TD></TR><TR class=bg2><TD>2003</TD><TD>St. Louis Rams</TD><TD>0</TD><TD>0</TD></TR><TR class=bg3><TD>2004</TD><TD>St. Louis Rams</TD><TD>8</TD><TD>6</TD></TR><TR class=bg2><TD>2005</TD><TD>St. Louis Rams</TD><TD>8</TD><TD>6</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>