Just say no to any skill positions until 4th round or later.

[ICE74129]

No safetys, TE's, WR's, LB's etc.

LINES!

If you will look the guys wanting these skill positions are the some of the most vocal about not being worth a damn over the last 6 years. But they want to continue to do the same things that got us 31-49 over the 5 year TD hellish Reign.

The problem from the day we didn't make the superbowl again has been a failure to address both lines. Lines are where games are won and lost. We have safetys, CB's, LB's, WR's, QB's and etc. We still greatly lack good lines.

Teams like Pittsburgh, NE, Carolina, Seattle etc built thier lines mostly though the draft. Sure you sign a guy here and there, but you do it through the draft. This years draft is THE year to do this. Deep at OL and very solid though round 2 on DL.

I will quote Bill Cowher again 'When you have a clear cut need, and you can draft the top guy or next to top guy at that position of need, you do so' We didn't address DT #2 in FA, time to do so in the draft. We didn't address LG in FA, we need to in the draft. I for one am on record as being perfectly happy spending the first 4 picks on lines. It is well past time for that to happen.

Picking lines is boring. It makes for a boring draft to some people. Those are the Madden Gen / Fast food fans of today. they want flash for the 8th pick. I keep reading posters say 'Well I don't feel so and so is worth #8'. I bet if you had access to all 32 teams draft boards, they DO have so and so worth the 8th pick. But that is why there are GM's and there are fans.

I would personally like to move back 2-3 spots, pick up another 2nd round pick and take Bunkley. If we stay at 8 so be it. But both lines need to be addressed in this draft.

Lastly the thing that gets me is we know lines need to be addressed, but fans want lesser rated talent to fill them. 'Draft BPA (ie a Safety or TE) with #8. Use 2nd and 3rd round picks on the lines'. That makes no sense. You try and get the best talent available at the position of need when you can. if we have a clear cut need at DT, then take the best damn DT possible!

Address the lines, It isn't flashy, but it's a winning formula.

[patmoran2006]

NO, the majority of fans think that when it comes to our lines, we should have went out and signed 1-2 starters on each side (maybe not franchise players but at least starters from other teams). As opposed to rookie's starting on a OL.


Let me ask you this, are you are JP Losman fan or a Craig Nall fan? You expect JP to have a real chance to succeed when you replace the left side of your line Gandy and Anderson with one or even two rookies (as your clearly suggesting)? He'll get KILLED with a rookie LT who's last name isn't Brick.

And Me, you, bill cowher or my sister can play GM when it comes to the 8th pick.. WHO CANT take a good player at eight? A good GM, the Pittsburgh's and Denver's and NE's you model everyday, how many of their starting OL and DL are first round picks? Go do the research (I have) the answer is NOT many...

If Levy's ability are up to par with other good GM's, he can find a starting DT in the second round, a solid guard and tackle in round three, etc etc ..

If we had the 20th pick or the 28th pick, like Pitt, NE and Den do every year its one thing.. Those teams rarely if ever get the shots at a top ten player like a Vernon Davis or a AJ Hawk or Michael Huff.

Pittsburgh the last TWO times they've had a pick in the first half of the first round, took a QB (Big Ben) and a S (Polamalu) .. That sound a lot fantasy football'ish to me now, doesnt it.

While I agree any type of Bills fan on this board or in WNY for that matter understands both sides of our line are currently ****, that does NOT mean we have to take a tackle or DT with our FIRST PICK.. EVERY team y ou mention on a comparison every day finds good starters on the line at ALL Phases of the draft.

[patmoran2006]

Mr Cowher's last nine first round draft picks.

2005- Heath Miller, TE (30th)
2004- Ben Rothleisberger, QB (11th)
2003- Troy Polamalu, S (14th)
2002- Kendall Simmons, G (30th)
2001- Casey Hampton, DT (19th)
2000- Plaxico Burress, WR (8th)
1999-Troy Edwards, WR (13th)
1998- Alen Faneca, G (26th)
1997- Chad Scott, CB (27th)

Summary: 2 guards taken in the first round, with 26th pick in '98 and 30th pick in '02.. ONE Dt taken in first round last nine years, the 19th pick in '01.

the ONE time Cowher owned the 8th pick, he took a WR.

THREE Other times Cowher had a pick in the first half of the first round, he took : QB, WR, S.

If Brick was on the board at 8, 100% of us would agree that's the pick.. If Ngata fit the defense we ran (vets got released for not fitting the scheme) then a lot of people would say that's the pick.. Truth is, he doesnt fit .

You gonna take a linemen at 8 just to take a linemen? You take the best player on the board that will help your team.

You have THREE other first day draft picks.. If you want, I'll go show you in the next two rounds how Cowher's draft picks of OL and DL INCREASE dramatically in rounds 2-4...

[oldno711]

No safetys, TE's, WR's, LB's etc.

LINES!

If you will look the guys wanting these skill positions are the some of the most vocal about not being worth a damn over the last 6 years. But they want to continue to do the same things that got us 31-49 over the 5 year TD hellish Reign.

The problem from the day we didn't make the superbowl again has been a failure to address both lines. Lines are where games are won and lost. We have safetys, CB's, LB's, WR's, QB's and etc. We still greatly lack good lines.

Teams like Pittsburgh, NE, Carolina, Seattle etc built thier lines mostly though the draft. Sure you sign a guy here and there, but you do it through the draft. This years draft is THE year to do this. Deep at OL and very solid though round 2 on DL.

I will quote Bill Cowher again 'When you have a clear cut need, and you can draft the top guy or next to top guy at that position of need, you do so' We didn't address DT #2 in FA, time to do so in the draft. We didn't address LG in FA, we need to in the draft. I for one am on record as being perfectly happy spending the first 4 picks on lines. It is well past time for that to happen.

Picking lines is boring. It makes for a boring draft to some people. Those are the Madden Gen / Fast food fans of today. they want flash for the 8th pick. I keep reading posters say 'Well I don't feel so and so is worth #8'. I bet if you had access to all 32 teams draft boards, they DO have so and so worth the 8th pick. But that is why there are GM's and there are fans.

I would personally like to move back 2-3 spots, pick up another 2nd round pick and take Bunkley. If we stay at 8 so be it. But both lines need to be addressed in this draft.

Lastly the thing that gets me is we know lines need to be addressed, but fans want lesser rated talent to fill them. 'Draft BPA (ie a Safety or TE) with #8. Use 2nd and 3rd round picks on the lines'. That makes no sense. You try and get the best talent available at the position of need when you can. if we have a clear cut need at DT, then take the best damn DT possible!

Address the lines, It isn't flashy, but it's a winning formula.

Definitely not flashy, but necessary

[ICE74129]

Definitely not flashy, but necessary

Its the way winning teams are built.

[oldno711]

Its the way winning teams are built.

Agreed. That's why I would love to see them get proactive and make the moves needed to ensure Ferguson is a Buffalo Bill next year. He's that good.

[ICE74129]

Agreed. That's why I would love to see them get proactive and make the moves needed to ensure Ferguson is a Buffalo Bill next year. He's that good.

You and me both, but I really don't want to lose picks this year. The draft is deep.

[patmoran2006]

Its the way winning teams are built.

How so? With Top Ten picks on linemen? I already showed you Pittsburgh.. Now lets examine another team you like to compare often; Denver.

Broncos First Picks Last 10 years.
2005- Darrent Wiliams, CB
2004-DJ Williams, CB
2003- George Foster, T
2002- Ashley Lelie, WR
2001- Willie Middlebrooks, CB
2000- Deltha O'Neal, CB
1999- Al Wilson, LB
1998-Marcus Nash, WR
1997- Trevor Pryce, DT
1996-John Mobley, LB

That's exactly ONE offensive linemen and ONE defensive linemen picked first overall in the last 10 years, yet they dont seem to have problems with their interior. KNow why? Most of their starters came in later rounds.. Its called GOOD drafting.

I dont think ANYBODY dude is denying our Lines are the biggest weak spots.. The point is Top Ten players are the BEST players in the draft for a reason, you HAVE to get one of them.. If he happens to fit a position of weakness its graavy.. But you DONT pass up on a franchise player because he's not a DT or OT.

Great GM's, the Polian's of the world.. Find good fat linemen all throughout the draft, the main reason its seven rounds.. not one.

[oldno711]

You and me both, but I really don't want to lose picks this year. The draft is deep.

We got Moulds??? Clements??? TWO 3rd rounders?????

MAKE IT HAPPEN MARV!

ok, so i'm obviously partial to my boy from Virginia but the guy's a beast.

[BillsNick]

Yes, maybe we could get another Mike Williams! :snicker:

[don137]

I truly believe the Bills will not go OL or DL in the first round unless they trade up for Brick/Williams or down. Ngata does not fit the scheme and Bunkley has character issues. Other than Brick or Williams no one is worth an 8th pick on the OL or DL. Thats why unless Hawk, Williams or Brick fall to 8 I see Huff or Davis as the selection.

[patmoran2006]

now.. based on a top 10 talent scale. If Buffalo had the third pick and Mario Williams or D'Brickshaw Ferguson were there, I highly doubt ANYBODY sane would be talking Vernon Davis, Huff or even AJ Hawk..

Williams and brick both fit a need, AND they are top 8 players... However, neither will be there.

Trading up to get either would be STUPID.. Here's why.
To move up to get Brick, based on the GM Bible (NFL draft value chart), he will likely be the second pick to the Saints..

Saints has a 2600 value.. Buffalo has 1400 with our pick..
It would take our first, second, both thirds and a fourth for the Saints to have equal points value. NO player is worth that much, not even Brick.

[patmoran2006]

I truly believe the Bills will not go OL or DL in the first round unless they trade up for Brick/Williams or down. Ngata does not fit the scheme and Binkley has character issues. Other than Brick or Williams no one is worth an 8th pick on the OL or DL. Thats why unless Hawk, Williams or Brick fall to 8 I see Huff or Davis as the selection.

Thank you SO MUCH!

Your 100% right.. Trade up for Brick or Mario (almost impossible see above chart).. Or trade down and get Justice or Bunkley, then absolutely..

Keep the eighth pick.. Not a chance.

[TedMock]

The draft is deep.

Which is why I see us taking a skilled position in the 2nd round. I 100% completely agree with you that games are won and lost on the lines. They are the primary staple of a great team. No doubt about it. However, the draft is deep with good lineman. A trade down is most beneficial in my opinion. 8 is a tough position because there are indeed going to be skilled players much more worthy of the pick at that time. I think we can land a starting guard in the 3rd or 4th round. If we go DL in 1, S in 2, OL in 3 and 4, I'm very pleased with that. I still think we'll also see a QB in 5 or 6.

[ICE74129]

Which is why I see us taking a skilled position in the 2nd round. I 100% completely agree with you that games are won and lost on the lines. They are the primary staple of a great team. No doubt about it. However, the draft is deep with good lineman. A trade down is most beneficial in my opinion. 8 is a tough position because there are indeed going to be skilled players much more worthy of the pick at that time. I think we can land a starting guard in the 3rd or 4th round. If we go DL in 1, S in 2, OL in 3 and 4, I'm very pleased with that. I still think we'll also see a QB in 5 or 6.

I would like to see us trade down a couple slots and take Bunkley or Justice with that pick. Use the first pick in the 2nd on the other line. Then decide from there.

[patmoran2006]

Bunkley or Justice make much more sense if your trading down and getting compensated with an extra pick or two for passing on a top 8 player.

A key is that Cutler or Young are still around at 8 as someone will DEFINITELY want to take them.

[camelcowboy]

How so? With Top Ten picks on linemen? I already showed you Pittsburgh.. Now lets examine another team you like to compare often; Denver.

Broncos First Picks Last 10 years.
2005- Darrent Wiliams, CB
2004-DJ Williams, CB
2003- George Foster, T
2002- Ashley Lelie, WR
2001- Willie Middlebrooks, CB
2000- Deltha O'Neal, CB
1999- Al Wilson, LB
1998-Marcus Nash, WR
1997- Trevor Pryce, DT
1996-John Mobley, LB

That's exactly ONE offensive linemen and ONE defensive linemen picked first overall in the last 10 years, yet they dont seem to have problems with their interior. KNow why? Most of their starters came in later rounds.. Its called GOOD drafting.

I dont think ANYBODY dude is denying our Lines are the biggest weak spots.. The point is Top Ten players are the BEST players in the draft for a reason, you HAVE to get one of them.. If he happens to fit a position of weakness its graavy.. But you DONT pass up on a franchise player because he's not a DT or OT.

Great GM's, the Polian's of the world.. Find good fat linemen all throughout the draft, the main reason its seven rounds.. not one.


Pick the one team that doesn't draft the typical line, The one team that has a zone blocking scheme, and has a staff that looks for a certain type of lineman that fit in a system. The system they run the they look for smaller faster lineman, which in this day and age is not a popular to draft line man so most of denvers o line could be picked in the mid rounds. Great example pat.

[patmoran2006]

Denver, NE, Pittsburgh and Indy are the four best teams in this conference; and they're the most used teams as a model of comparision.

Guess how many of their starting OL (20 total between the four) are players that were top ten picks.. COMBINED.. ZERO

Now that's different with DT's.. DT's do have a higher % of top ten picks on this team, with Seymour from NE and Warren from Den (though he was drafted by Clev).. SO if a case can be made that Bunkley is a top eight talent then I'm all for it.

[patmoran2006]

Pick the one team that doesn't draft the typical line, The one team that has a zone blocking scheme, and has a staff that looks for a certain type of lineman that fit in a system. The system they run the they look for smaller faster lineman, which in this day and age is not a popular to draft line man so most of denvers o line could be picked in the mid rounds. Great example pat.

I understand that.. I'm not saying there is NO way that Buffalo should draft a OL first; just not with the 8th pick.. Its too high unless its Brick, and thats not happening.

Trade down 4-5 spots and get Winston Justice.. Trade down a bit more and you can still get Eric Winston.

Dont take a Tackle at 8 because we need a tackle.. Its not worth it.

[camelcowboy]

I understand that.. I'm not saying there is NO way that Buffalo should draft a OL first; just not with the 8th pick.. Its too high unless its Brick, and thats not happening.

Trade down 4-5 spots and get Winston Justice.. Trade down a bit more and you can still get Eric Winston.

Dont take a Tackle at 8 because we need a tackle.. Its not worth it.

agreed, trade down get the tackle get some other picks

[patmoran2006]

Pick the one team that doesn't draft the typical line, The one team that has a zone blocking scheme, and has a staff that looks for a certain type of lineman that fit in a system. The system they run the they look for smaller faster lineman, which in this day and age is not a popular to draft line man so most of denvers o line could be picked in the mid rounds. Great example pat.

fair enough, I"ll give you Pittsbugh's Offensive Line, I'm assuming we'd like to have an offense similar to them, no?

Starks and Smith are their tackles.. Starks was picked in the third round of 2002.. Smith in the second round of 2000.. Both are VERy effective tackles, neither was a particularly high pick.

Faneca and Simmons are the guards, were both first rounders. They also were the 26th and 30th picks. We pick 8th.

[camelcowboy]

Besides Mike Williams in the first round of 02, when have the bills spent a first day pick on a Olineman. Its been long neglected.

[patmoran2006]

Besides Mike Williams in the first round of 02, when have the bills spent a first day pick on a Olineman. Its been long neglected.

Dude I agree with you 100% there..........we BETTER spend TWO first day picks on the offensive line or Marv is no better than TD.

Just not at 8 is the only point I been trying to make. Best player with biggest impact at 8 I dont care where he plays........ DT, OT and G with the three other first day picks.

If we're taking Bunkley or Winston Justice, we need to trade down to get them.

[camelcowboy]

i agree, Bunkley is not worth 8th, pick nor is justice or winston. But who knows what the bills will do. I thought lee Evans was a reach at thirteen, but it was decent pick. Its depressing that there are so many holes and not enought picks.

[patmoran2006]

i agree, Bunkley is not worth 8th, pick nor is justice or winston. But who knows what the bills will do. I thought lee Evans was a reach at thirteen, but it was decent pick. Its depressing that there are so many holes and not enought picks.

Goes back to what I been "whining" about the last two weeks.. WE did not do even CLOSE to enough in FA, and as a result we're stuck with the exact SAME glaring weakness at the same positions we ended the 2005 season with: DT, LT and LG and question marks at other spots including WR, QB, DE and backup RB.

[Drive 4 Five]

The consensus in all that I have read thus far seems to indicate that this is a very deep draft with many good prospects for offensive and defensive linemen in the later rounds. Reaching for players with such a high pick simply to fill need is often viewed as unwise. However, a few years back I remember the Bengals drafting an offensive lineman named Levi Jones and all the so-called experts on ESPN were very critical of this move. Doesn't look like such a bad idea now does it? Still. In this instance, with the needs the Bills have at so many positions, I think it would be best to trade down (I have no doubt that there will be opportunities), for multiple picks like a 2nd and a 5th.

[Drive 4 Five]

Goes back to what I been "whining" about the last two weeks.. WE did not do even CLOSE to enough in FA, and as a result we're stuck with the exact SAME glaring weakness at the same positions we ended the 2005 season with: DT, LT and LG and question marks at other spots including WR, QB, DE and backup RB.

Well Pat I guess the real experts (meaning the people who actually run the Bill's organization) must not feel that the depth at those positions is as poor as everyone seems to think. Everyone knows how bad you wanted LeCharles Bentley, Steve Hutchinson, and Terrell Owens but we simply have too many needs to go out blowing all our money on two players when there has not even been ample time to evaluate exactly how the players on our roster will fit the new schemes being implemented.

[Drive 4 Five]

Its depressing that there are so many holes and not enought picks.

All the more reason to make like Jimmy Johnson in this draft.

[justasportsfan]

Although he won't be there, I wouldn't pass on Hawk at 8

[oldno711]

now.. based on a top 10 talent scale. If Buffalo had the third pick and Mario Williams or D'Brickshaw Ferguson were there, I highly doubt ANYBODY sane would be talking Vernon Davis, Huff or even AJ Hawk..

Williams and brick both fit a need, AND they are top 8 players... However, neither will be there.

Trading up to get either would be STUPID.. Here's why.
To move up to get Brick, based on the GM Bible (NFL draft value chart), he will likely be the second pick to the Saints..

Saints has a 2600 value.. Buffalo has 1400 with our pick..
It would take our first, second, both thirds and a fourth for the Saints to have equal points value. NO player is worth that much, not even Brick.

I agree, but IF the draft goes Bush, M.Williams, Leinart....then we could take a shot at trading up to 4. 4th pick = 1,800points. We could package our 1st rounder with a player (Moulds or Clements) or offer up a couple picks (1st and 2nd or 1st, 3rd, and pick next year). I'm not saying this will happen by any means, but it could. If the Jets don't pick him (Cutler/Young) and he's sitting there at 5 or 6 and we don't make a move to get him, I will be VERY disappointed.

[ICE74129]

I agree, but IF the draft goes Bush, M.Williams, Leinart....then we could take a shot at trading up to 4. 4th pick = 1,800points. We could package our 1st rounder with a player (Moulds or Clements) or offer up a couple picks (1st and 2nd or 1st, 3rd, and pick next year). I'm not saying this will happen by any means, but it could. If the Jets don't pick him (Cutler/Young) and he's sitting there at 5 or 6 and we don't make a move to get him, I will be VERY disappointed.

The jets will never trade with us.

[Drive 4 Five]

I agree, but IF the draft goes Bush, M.Williams, Leinart....then we could take a shot at trading up to 4. 4th pick = 1,800points. We could package our 1st rounder with a player (Moulds or Clements) or offer up a couple picks (1st and 2nd or 1st, 3rd, and pick next year). I'm not saying this will happen by any means, but it could. If the Jets don't pick him (Cutler/Young) and he's sitting there at 5 or 6 and we don't make a move to get him, I will be VERY disappointed.

Ok I think we can all agree that this team has many holes to fill, right? Anyone disagree with that? So that said, please explain how it would make any sense at all, to be trading picks away just to move up a few spots?

[oldno711]

The jets will never trade with us.

*****es

[patmoran2006]

I agree, but IF the draft goes Bush, M.Williams, Leinart....then we could take a shot at trading up to 4. 4th pick = 1,800points. We could package our 1st rounder with a player (Moulds or Clements) or offer up a couple picks (1st and 2nd or 1st, 3rd, and pick next year). I'm not saying this will happen by any means, but it could. If the Jets don't pick him (Cutler/Young) and he's sitting there at 5 or 6 and we don't make a move to get him, I will be VERY disappointed.

I agree.. IF Brick goes to fourth.
He's worth a first, second and fifth rounder..
He's not worth our entire day one of the draft.

[patmoran2006]

The jets will never trade with us.

The Jets will trade with anybody who's going to benefit them. I'm pretty sure they're not worried about the Buffalo Bills.

[ICE74129]

Besides Mike Williams in the first round of 02, when have the bills spent a first day pick on a Olineman. Its been long neglected.

Ruben Brown was the last.

Man Good thing seattle didnt take Hutchenson with a first round selection....errrr......

[oldno711]

Ok I think we can all agree that this team has many holes to fill, right? Anyone disagree with that? So that said, please explain how it would make any sense at all, to be trading picks away just to move up a few spots?

Although, like I've said before, I would love to see Brick in a Bills uni, I do agree it would be silly to give up the house in order to move up to #2. I would not however, be opposed to moving up to 4, 5, 6, or 7 if by chance he's still there. He's a [significant] cut above every other LT in the draft.

[Mr. Pink]

Actually the last time the Bills spent a day 1 pick on an OL was 1998 a 3rd round pick on OT Robert Hicks. Yes, the Bills have gone the past 8 drafts and only drafted 2 O-lineman on day 1. Quite scary. D-line however has been addressed through the draft on day 1 and addressed dilligently, since the 2000 draft and not including last years' draft starting with Erik Flowers and ending with Tim Anderson.

[patmoran2006]

Ruben Brown was the last.

Man Good thing seattle didnt take Hutchenson with a first round selection....errrr......

Hutch was not a top eight pick.. He was picked 17th.. BIG DIFFERENCE.

As a matter of fact, Hutch was not even the first player SEATTLE took in 2001 They took a WR first.. . Don't worry, you're excused.

<TABLE cellSpacing=1 cellPadding=2 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR class=bg0 align=left><TD class=bg0 colSpan=5>2001 (http://www.nfl.com/draft/history/years/2001)</TD></TR><TR class=bg1 align=left><TD>Rd</TD><TD>Sel#</TD><TD>Player</TD><TD>Pos.</TD><TD>School</TD></TR><TR class=bg2 vAlign=center align=right height=17><TD align=left>1</TD><TD align=right>9</TD><TD align=left>Koren Robinson</TD><TD align=left>WR</TD><TD align=left>North Carolina State</TD></TR><TR class=bg2 vAlign=center align=right height=17><TD align=left>1</TD><TD align=right>17</TD><TD align=left>Steve Hutchinson</TD><TD align=left>G</TD><TD align=left>Michigan

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

[Mr. Pink]

Ruben Brown was the last.

Man Good thing seattle didnt take Hutchenson with a first round selection....errrr......

The better part about Hutchinson being drafted in Rd1 by the Seahawks....They had two first round picks in that draft, the first used to draft Koren Robinson at 9th. Hutchinson was drafted at 17th. So obviously on draft day with pick 9 they went BPA and difference maker, then at 17 they went with road grader. So even Seattle at draft day valued Koren higher than Hutch.

[patmoran2006]

The better part about Hutchinson being drafted in Rd1 by the Seahawks....They had two first round picks in that draft, the first used to draft Koren Robinson at 9th. Hutchinson was drafted at 17th. So obviously on draft day with pick 9 they went BPA and difference maker, then at 17 they went with road grader. So even Seattle at draft day valued Koren higher than Hutch.
Dont' expect a response to that, you've just sent him away from this thread by making sense..

[Mr. Pink]

Dont' expect a response to that, you've just sent him away from this thread by making sense..

I'm just ticked that you beat me to posting that first about Koren:beers: DAMN YOU I SAY! DAMN YOU TO HELL! :lol:

[Bmax]

LB should be considered a skill position.....With posey and fletcher in their last years of their contacts and aging. The bills had better spend a 3rd or 4th rd pick on a LB.. tThis years draft is one of the deepest LB drafts in recent history.

We will take one ...........

I don't even have the time to post about the safety position that even more pressing then LB..

Bmax